CAP Updates: Aurumoth Discussion

[cbrevan]

Welcome to the CAP update thread for everyone's favorite golden moth, Aurumoth.

Name: Risky Business
(formerly "Living On the Edge")

General Description: This Pokémon is very risky to play, but very rewarding if played correctly.

Justification: Many of the Pokémon that are successful in OU are relatively easy to play or have great "safe" options (e.g. U-turn). Yet, many other Pokémon look very powerful, but are less successful than they could be because of some large risks involved (e.g. Hydreigon), and some aren't successful at all (e.g. Honchkrow). This self-balancing concept intends to explore what it takes for a risky Pokémon to be successful, and how much inherent risk a Pokémon can get away with. It should be emphasized that this concept is NOT about luck management, but rather, it is about what the user can afford to do given his/her opponent's options, and vice versa.

Questions To Be Answered:

• What is the relationship between risk and potential consequences, both positive and negative?
• What kinds of inherently risky tactics are successful in the OU metagame?
• Do risky Pokémon need some form of safe options (e.g. switch-ins) to be successful in OU, or can it get away with having few really safe options?
• How does Substitute, a well-known "safe" move with nearly universal distribution, impact how this Pokémon is built and played?
• How do existing Pokémon use and deal with risky situations?
• Can risky Pokémon be played well in the early game, or are they better off put into action later on?
• How do different playstyles interact with risky situations?

Explanation: This concept has been a rather long time coming. My main inspiration actually comes from obi / david stone and his battling AI, Technical Machine. Part of me imagined Technical Machine playing in a metagame containing this kind of Pokémon to see how it would play it, and by submitting this now I risk never having that come to fruition, but it doesn't seem like it will be finished for this generation any time soon. My other inspirations mainly comes from examples of risky Pokémon in other metagames. Honchkrow in UU, for example, has a deadly combination in Sucker Punch + Brave Bird + Pursuit, and with enough balls (or a good opportunity), it can use Roost to keep on trucking past Life Orb recoil. Another arguable example is Ursaring in Glitchmons. It is successful for having an extremely powerful priority STAB move, but at the same time, its other priority moves aren't quite as powerful, and sometimes it has to resort to a move like V-create, which punishes its low Speed.

Now, some may have noticed that there was no mention whatsoever of the term "prediction" throughout this submission. This was intentional. I feel that "prediction" has very much become a sort of buzzword even among seasoned battlers, and people get the heavily simplified idea that Pokémon is just about predicting your opponent's move. Yet, as anyone who's played poker or even competitive rock-paper-scissors will tell you, there is an inherent risk in every read, and these risks have to be considered to be successful. The aforementioned Technical Machine has no inherent concept of "prediction" at all. Hopefully, by making a Pokémon that embodies risk and reward, we will have a better understanding of the long-term implications of risk in a Pokémon match.

I know bugmaniacbob said he wants a concept focused on how to build a Pokémon more than what the metagame does when presented with a certain Pokémon. I know that this concept is pretty heavy on the latter, but I definitely chose this concept with the former in mind as well. There are a lot of good possibilities for making risk happen, and I am eager to see what people come up with.

As the concept suggests, Aurumoth was built to embody risk, specifically the risk vs reward aspect inherent in setup sweepers. Their attempts to do fulfill this concept resulted in the pseudo legendary bug we have today, that for better or worse, has a decent stat spread, a wide movepool, impressive abilities, and access to some of the most powerful boosting moves in the game. Now, I don't want this update process to become a debate on what they did or did not do well. We're not here to past judgement on what our predecessors did; we're here to evaluate Aurumoth in the context of the current metagame and address any issues it has in the context of present times. What I mean by this is, I don't want people to be arguing for changes because they did not believe they were pro-concept at the time of its creation, but because the changes are relevant today. I also want to stress that Aurumoth's concept was a very difficult concept to realize, especially through the methodology they used which skirted the line between high risk high reward and low risk high reward.

In regards to fulfilling the concept today, I don't think we'll have to go out of our ways to do so. As one can reasonable expect, the higher the risk of use for a Pokemon, the harder it is to fit onto a team. From that, increasing the risky nature of Aurumoth will most likely go hand in hand with addressing the competitive nature of it, and will be something we address as we go.

Regarding Aurumoth's present issues, I believe many of them stem from it's ability to close out games with any of the large number of boosting sets it has available to it. This is compounded by Aurumoth's access to a movepool wide enough to hit most of the metagame for significant damage, as well as three abilities that all have synergy with its boosting sets. I don't think any of this is going to be disputed; I think we can all agree that Aurumoth is a fantastic setup sweeper. Really, our job is to discuss to what extent should Aurumoth be viable in its roles, and what changes will be necessary to bring it down or up to the level of ability we've identified.

Again, I'd like to stress that this isn't the place to try and fix what many believe is a mistake. We aren't here to mold Aurumoth into what we believe it should have been, but to address any issues it presents to the current metagame.

To help jumpstart discussion, here are some questions I'd like to pose to everyone:

What does Aurumoth excel at, and what do you believe it does too well, if at all?

If you think it does something too well, what do you believe is the reason for that?

Similarly, what does Aurumoth do poorly, and what do you believe it does too poorly, if at all?

If you think it does something poorly, what do you believe is the reason for that?

Basically, I want us to start by identifying what Aurumoth does and does not do well, and from there we can get a real sense of its power level, how risky it is, and other crucial aspects we need to establish.

 

[Exclaimer]

What does Aurumoth excel at, and what do you believe it does too well, if at all?

Aurumoth can do everything it could possibly want offensively, and it's the best in the meta at most of all of it. Need a special sweeper? Quiver Dance once and you can beat anything. Physical Sweeper? Dragon Dance and watch physical walls drop to coverage moves. Stallbreaker? Tail Glow cleans stall teams effortlessly. Life Orb, Choice Scarf, and Expert Belt are all fantastic options too. Each one of these sets can run Illusion to make your entire team more effective, and give you opportunities to setup on a lot of things you shouldn't be able to. No Guard lets you run powerful attacks for no drawback, such as Megahorn, Thunder, Blizzard, Focus Blast, and more, on any of these sets, for extreme amounts of power.

This is just silly, and needs to be toned down hard.

Similarly, what does Aurumoth do poorly, and what do you believe it does too poorly, if at all?

It has a mediocre special defense that makes it prone to being revenge killed by bulky special attackers (Quiver Dance can remedy this...) . Stealth Rock is annoying and ruins Illusion. Otherwise... what flaws are there to point out?

Mind, Aurumoth got better in the transition to gen 6. Overheat got crazy good for dealing with Metagross and Celesteela, while Psychic Terrain makes Psyshock one of the most terrifying attacks in the metagame. Sure, setup opportunities are not as frequent, but now, when you get a boost, your victory is even more assured than ever before.

 

[Rat With Wings]

What Aurumoth excels at is using its amazing coverage and boosting options to sweep late game or just blow holes in the opposing team. What tips this well over the edge is Illusion. Illusion grants Aurumoth the ability to turn completely unfavorable positions into winning ones through, at best for the opponent, 50/50s due to Illusion + a boosting move, usually Quiver Dance. I also think the options it gets are far too expansive as often you will just have to sacrifice a bunch of Pokemon to find out what set it is even using as it can run a myriad of items, coverage moves, Z-Moves and can even use No Guard and to a lesser extent Weak Armour to good effect. When you have a mon in the tier that literally has 10+ viable sets and Illusion it really makes you question why you are even playing the tier sometimes.

Despite all of this, Aurumoth actually does have a few flaws which help it not just have 100% usage. First off, its typing leaves a lot to be desired defensively. Weakness to Stealth Rocks and a slew of common attacking types such as Fire, Dark, Flying etc. really hamper its ability to switch in safely and also to boost up (if not for Illusion of course) This is compounded by the fact that Aurumoth has a very low Special Defense stat meaning it can fall quite easily to powerful special attackers. Aurumoth also just misses out on a very common speed benchmark of 95 base speed which makes it very susceptible to getting revenge killed without boosts. These are the main flaws of Aurumoth in my opinion but Aurumoth most certainly doesn't do anything too poorly that it isn't required to do. Aurumoth's job is to blow holes or sweep the opposing team and it does that incredibly well, and with Illusion a little too well for my mind.

 

[snake]

What does Aurumoth excel at, and what do you believe it does too well, if at all? If you think it does something too well, what do you believe is the reason for that?

Setting up. One Quiver Dance boost is terrifying, but it's manageable. Common scarfers outpace it so I don't think +1 is much of an issue. However, What makes this one boost so terrifying is because you've realized you've switched your Mega Metagross into the opposing Mega Crucibelle, and now either you're taking an Inferno Overdrive to the face, or you switch into your Scarf Volkraken and it gets the second, game-ending boost. Illusion just does that. I'm not saying the set up itself is bad, though. If you try to set up without Illusion, it's a good bit harder, as Aurumoth's trolly Speed tier of 94 holds it under common scarfers.

Its coverage lets it cover whatever it wants to, and Z Crystals let it preserve its Illusion longer (not giving away LO recoil).

Its ability is what makes it so hard to check/counter and what makes it S rank. QD is an especially strong move on it, but I think boosting moves are part of Aurumoth's identity now, so Illusion is the main culprit here.

 

[Eris]

What does Aurumoth excel at, and what do you believe it does too well, if at all?

Offensive pressure, Aurumoth is a very scary threat as it possesses a very large coverage, and a great amount of sets which usually are moves such as Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance and Tail Glow not to mention the buff it got with Z-Moves. It has its way to at least set up once with Illusion making it a very hard pokemon to switch into and to counter, most unprepared teams would actually have to sacrifice 2-3 pokemons to make one revenge kill it.

If you think it does something too well, what do you believe is the reason for that?

Illusion + Quiver Dance is just one of the best combination in pokemon, Illusion just makes it able to play on the opponent's team and set up at least one Quiver Dance. Quiver Dance just overcomes all its stat flaws such as a low average speed and a weak special defence, which is why there is no stable counter for Aurumoth.

 

[david0895]

What does Aurumoth excel at, and what do you believe it does too well, if at all?
If you think it does something too well, what do you believe is the reason for that?

When the Update Discussion started and Illusion Aurumoth came out, I did some matches with it: If rocks are not on my field, I setupped e sweeped in every occasion that I had.
Illusion just gives you too many occasion to set up, because it creates a 50/50 situation where you can kill the Illusion or allowing it to boost itself.
Even rather there's another situation that Illusion create: you can think that the opponent is using an Aurumoth but it may not be and tanking the KO.

 

[Granny Pie]

What does Aurumoth excel at, and what do you believe it does too well, if at all?
Closing. But only as long as his relevant threats and checks are gone, such as Haze Hawk. Haze Hawk essentially forces Aurumoth into a "Fight or Die" situation, leaving it easily killed by Tomo or revenge killed by whatever comes in. With just a little bit of damage, Illusion loses its power to deceive, making Aurumoth a very "one and done" type of Pokemon. It cannot afford to be wasted or used thoughtlessly. Aurumoth takes just a little bit of planning before battle, so that you can make sure of when to send in Auru, and who he should come in as. Without such counters, however, Aurumoth is a game and metagame defining force as a setup sweeper and closer.
Similarly, what does Aurumoth do poorly, and what do you believe it does too poorly, if at all?
Aurumoth can't cover everything offensively, much in the way that Tomohawk, Pheromosa, or Greninja try to. Sure, Auru's got 3 setup moves, but he needs 3 attacks with one of those moves to round out his coverage, and even then, the choices you make, such as Overheat over Hydro Pump, Blizzard, or Thunder, preventing Aurumoth from being uncounterable. Without Blizzard or Hydro Pump, AV Colosoil takes it down, or at least heavily damages it with the combination of Knock Off, Sucker Punch, even with a QD boost. And we hardly ever see Tail Glow without support, such as in the form of Tailwind, nor do we much see Dragon Dance much. Sure, both are viable, but they don't cover everything as well as Quiver Dance does. In any case, Tomohawk always gets rid of the one thing that Aurumoth needs to win: Its boosts. Aurumoth isn't unbeatable. Play smart, play safe, play tactically. Aurumoth takes little thought, so in general, the people playing the standard Quiver Dance and Life Orb most don't use an excessive amount of forethought. (I apologize if you like LO Aurumoth. Sawwy.)

 

[jas61292]

I think snake_rattler said it best so far with regard to Aurmoth's current power. Aurumoth is a fantastic Pokemon, and it can be very hard to stop. However, it is not unbeatable. It has things that can stop it, but only if they are in on it. Illusion is the thing that is the real problem. Aurumoth is strong but handle-able when at +1. That is not as not as true at +2. Yeah, some things still check it, but Scarfers can't revenge it and a lot of things can't wall it anymore. Illusion is what lets that happen. Make a bad switch, and you are looking at something incredibly hard to stop. Or, alternatively, it just attacks and kills something when you have to sack something cause you made the wrong switch. Without Illusion, this wouldn't happen. You wouldn't make a wrong switch if you know Aurumoth is the Pokemon out there.

What's worse though, perhaps, is that the very threat of Illusion makes people overthink. Guess wrong, and suddenly your Tomohawk is using Air Slash on Cyclohm and getting Thunderbolted in return. It is simply one of the strongest abilities in the game for the mind games it gives, and the fact that Aurumoth can abuse it so well just makes it worse. Its one thing for a mediocre Pokemon like Zoroark to have it, but its another for a Pokemon that is top tier even without it.

Beyond that though, I don't really think there are too many problems. Aurumoth is strong, but if you know it is Aurumoth you can handle it.

 

[sparktrain]

I'm pretty much on the same page as several of the above posters. Illusion's high effectiveness as an ability means that Aurumoth's mere presence on a team can often force the opponent into making suboptimal plays for fear of being swept. Or being annihilated by Overheat. Or Hydro Pump. This powerful of an ability on something as diverse as Aurumoth is something that just isn't healthy for the metagame in my opinion. Rather than try and remove some combination of Aurumoth's coverage options or boosting options from its movepool in an attempt to make Illusion more manageable, we can deal with the issue in one fell swoop by simply removing the problem ability. Aurumoth would still very much be Aurumoth, you'd still need to scout its coverage moves and use your judgement at team preview to figure out what set it's running, but you'd at least know when you're dealing with Aurumoth rather than crucial moments of battles turning into guessing games.

 

[SHSP]

Gotta agree heavily with Snake, Jas and Spark- Illusion is the biggest issue with Auru. Often against it, I've had to sack mons (the idea Jas mentioned with tomo airslashing cyclohm, or knocking off something with colo and dying for it for example) to prevent the possibility of auru getting +1 on my switch or predict. I don't find much issue with it's myriad of boosting moves without Illusion making it a whole lot easier to set up said boost, but the overwhelming coverage Auru gets is another topic I feel is under mentioned here. Auru can be a nightmare to scout: for example, usually SpDef Heatran is an answer, but you switch in your Tran on Auru and it's prone to taking a ton from Hydro Pump or Focus Blast. Overheat can muscle through steels like Celesteela (especially Celest/Skarm, that resist Focus, another viable strong option), and No Guard sets can run moves like Blizzard and Thunder that aren't necessarily well prepared for in an Auru check. In order to reliably beat Auru, you have to be able to prevent the setup of it in the first place- everything past that is a risk of losing your best answer to a specific coverage move and falling far behind.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I agree that Illusion is the biggest source of potential problems and that it's coverage and boosting moves become much less fearsome once Illusion is gone; I will support Illusion's replacement and I won't support the removal of Quiver Dance or its coverage.

The next question that I ask myself is what ability do we want to replace Illusion with? In my opinion we can't just strike Illusion, as there is no precedent for this happening. Sometimes GameFreak has changed an ability, but never removed one. So do we want the new ability to be crappy flavor with no real purpose? Or do we want it to be something useful but much less so than Illusion once was? If we want it to be purely flavor then I'd imagine we could decide that later in the flavor stages. But if we still want it to do *something* then we probably should start discussing our options. Personally I would want it to be pure flavor... and I know what ability I like based on some factors, but I'll save myself from sharing until (or if) we confirm we want Illusion gone and decide what the effectiveness of the replacement should be.

 

[Bughouse]

It should be replaced with a flavor ability per CAP's (post-Aurumoth) policy that no CAP should get 3 competitive abilities.

 

[sparktrain]

Yeah, I agree that if Illusion goes, it should be replaced by a flavor ability. Weak Armor and No Guard are both viable and competitively useful on Aurumoth, so I don't think we should give it a third useful ability.

 

[Granny Pie]

What does Aurumoth become without Illusion? Nothing more than just another special setup sweeper. Sure, he has lots of coverage, and the ability to go physical, but so does Mew. And Salamence. And Tapu Koko, to an extent. And even Greninja, if you wanted. What does No Guard do? Makes his one coverage move per set more accurate, but also makes it so that he can't avoid Stone Edge, Hydro Pump, Thunder, and more. What does Weak Armor do? Makes him faster, but much easier to kill. Sure, these abilities are usually great on the right Pokemon, but I personally have found Aurumoth to be only average, or even less than average, without a boost. Illusion almost guarantees that boost, and puts Aurumoth up on that pedestal of power. Neither of his other abilities help his power at all, either special or physical, directly or indirectly. They only boost his accuracy or make him faster. I believe one of the big points of "risk and reward" was the necessity for Aurumoth to boost to become powerful, leaving him sub-average to average without one. If we were to rid Aurumoth of Illusion, he would need a replacement ability that either boosts his power for him, whether physical or special, or gives him the power to get off an easy boost in many, or even just some, situations. We can't just neuter Aurumoth with a useless ability. He needs a boost to succeed, and his average stats don't help him get one. Cawmodore can get a Belly Drum off because of his Defense, his immunities, and his speed. Crucibelle can get off a Coil because of her speed and many resistances. Dragonite can get off a Dragon Dance because of Multiscale, really decent defenses, and several resistances. Syclant can even boost with his speed, Focus Sash, and Stealth Rock immunity. What does Aurumoth have without Illusion? Many common, exploitable weaknesses, awkward Speed, cringey Special Defense, and an easy prediction factor. He needs an ability, that I won't suggest now, that can give him a powerful boost at the cost of being easily hurt, or a way to predict and/or avoid excessive damage once so he can boost. That's risk and reward. Definitely not Illusion, and certainly not some possibly, presumably useless, flavor ability.

 

[reachzero]

Illusion is incredibly powerful on Aurumoth because of the impact of seeing Aurumoth at team preview. This is amusing, in a way, because we all assumed that team preview would totally cripple Illusion. Once you know your opponent has Aurumoth, you have to play every single Pokemon that switches on as though it was both the Pokemon it appears to be and Aurumoth, and that is ridiculously hard to do. The metagame abounds with Pokemon that demand very specific responses--Scarf Volkraken comes to mind. It shares a Stealth Rock weakness with Aurumoth, so even the presence of rocks don't reveal which Pokemon it is. This is a deadly double-bind: do I risk bringing my Heatran into a powerful Surf? Do I bring in my Tapu Fini and hope Aurumoth doesn't attack? Worse yet, if my Heatran gets hit with Hydro Pump, I *still* can't be certain which Pokemon hit me. Illusion makes Aurumoth itself dangerous, but its support ability is absolutely unreal.

I feel Quiver Dance is bad for the concept and I worry that Aurumoth is too strong even without Illusion, but I have to concede the point when comparing Aurumoth to Salamence, which is basically just as dangerous.

Weak Armor and No Guard are actually really good abilities for Aurumoth, so I don't think Aurumoth needs another. Yes, Aurumoth's typing is bad defensively, but Psychic STAB frightens out so many Pokemon in CAP that it shouldn't have any problem setting up.

 

[snake]

What does Aurumoth become without Illusion? Nothing more than just another special setup sweeper. Sure, he has lots of coverage, and the ability to go physical, but so does Mew. And Salamence. And Tapu Koko, to an extent. And even Greninja, if you wanted. What does No Guard do? Makes his one coverage move per set more accurate, but also makes it so that he can't avoid Stone Edge, Hydro Pump, Thunder, and more. What does Weak Armor do? Makes him faster, but much easier to kill. Sure, these abilities are usually great on the right Pokemon, but I personally have found Aurumoth to be only average, or even less than average, without a boost. Illusion almost guarantees that boost, and puts Aurumoth up on that pedestal of power. Neither of his other abilities help his power at all, either special or physical, directly or indirectly. They only boost his accuracy or make him faster. I believe one of the big points of "risk and reward" was the necessity for Aurumoth to boost to become powerful, leaving him sub-average to average without one. If we were to rid Aurumoth of Illusion, he would need a replacement ability that either boosts his power for him, whether physical or special, or gives him the power to get off an easy boost in many, or even just some, situations. We can't just neuter Aurumoth with a useless ability. He needs a boost to succeed, and his average stats don't help him get one. Cawmodore can get a Belly Drum off because of his Defense, his immunities, and his speed. Crucibelle can get off a Coil because of her speed and many resistances. Dragonite can get off a Dragon Dance because of Multiscale, really decent defenses, and several resistances. Syclant can even boost with his speed, Focus Sash, and Stealth Rock immunity. What does Aurumoth have without Illusion? Many common, exploitable weaknesses, awkward Speed, cringey Special Defense, and an easy prediction factor. He needs an ability, that I won't suggest now, that can give him a powerful boost at the cost of being easily hurt, or a way to predict and/or avoid excessive damage once so he can boost. That's risk and reward. Definitely not Illusion, and certainly not some possibly, presumably useless, flavor ability.

It's not like Illusion is Aurumoth's only competitively viable ability. Gen 7 Weak Armor lets Aurumoth outspeed the entire unboosted metagame, and with resistances to Fighting-type moves and Earthquake, it can get this boost off more effectively than you might think. You can run Quiver Dance or even Tail Glow with it if you want. It's just that getting off the boost is a bit risky wait a minut-

No Guard lets it drop Bug Buzz for Focus Blast, which while weaker than Bug Buzz, has better coverage. Thunder and Blizzard can be really hard to deal with, especially at +1.

Would it be harder to set up with Illusion-less Aurumoth? Of course it would. Aurumoth still has coverage to hit so much of the meta, so I'm not exactly sure why we would ever want to give Aurumoth a viable ability over Illusion. Don't forget that Aurumoth has really decent bulk to work with, especially with Quiver Dance's SpD boost. You just can't disguise as a Chansey anymore to force out the Ash-Greninja or whatever to get that first boost off.

 

[Exclaimer]

Honestly, No Guard sets can run Focus Blast + Blizzard + Thunder for amazingly powerful coverage that hits most of the metagame supereffectively, and these options are often just as powerful as STAB options anyway. No Guard doesn't just make one coverage option better, it often makes coverage moves your main attack and opens up sets with coverage over STAB.

 

[Granny Pie]

I was already workin' on this before Snake posted, so I'mma just post it.
What exactly does Aurumoth's Psychic STAB threaten in CAP? Tomohawk, Mollux, Revenankh, Pheromosa, Crucibelle, Fidgit, Kerfluffle, prolly a few more. But wait!
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 326-386 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Threatening? Yes.
0 SpA Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 404-476 (110 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sadly, Tomo's stronger, and No Guard garuntees a Hurricane hit.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Pheromosa: 650-768 (229.6 - 271.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Threatening? Oh yeah.
4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 502-593 (136.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 312-369 (85 - 100.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Sadly, Phero is much faster.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scarf Mollux: 260-308 (78.5 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Threatening? Yes.
252 SpA Scarf Mollux Eruption (112 BP) vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 558-656 (152 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Scarf Mollux Fire Blast vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 546-644 (148.7 - 175.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sadly, Scarf Mollux is faster and more powerful.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4+ SpD Utility Mollux: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Threatening? Yes.
252 SpA Utility Mollux Lava Plume vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 398-470 (108.4 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sure, Mollux is extremely damaged, but Auru's dead.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 228-270 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Threatening? Yes.
252 Atk Crucibelle-Mega Head Smash vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 510-600 (138.9 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sadly, both normal and mega Cruci outspeed, and kill.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Fidgit: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Threatening? Yes.
0- Atk Fidgit U-turn vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 74-88 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
This is actually a good mon to set up on, if ya don't mind a layer of Spikes or Toxic Spikes on your side.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kerfluffle: 306-360 (99 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Threatening? Yes.
Sadly, Kerfluffle is faster, and Parting Shot exists. It's really hard to set up on a Parting Shot. You get the boosted Speed, but that's really it.
This post is mostly just to show that many things that Aurumoth could switch into, thinking it can boost as itself, either outright kill him or leave him horribly maimed as he boosts, and easily revenge-killed, even with a boost. I believe that a great way to keep "risk and reward" alive on his sweeping sets would be to either lower these kinds of damages to the point where it's still debilitating, but not fatal, or make it so that his boosts mean "more", whatever that could mean, immediately or over time, even with near-fatal or fatal damage, given a Focus Sash. I really like the sound of an Aurumoth relying on less accurate, but powerful, coverage moves with No Guard, but I honestly still feel like Auru still needs a viable "risky" setup option, which an ability that keeps the damage he would retain from these strong attacks, leaving him at low HP but with boosts that will either continue to raise with time, or are immediately more noticeable, like Simple, or something similar. Heck, even Defiant, discouraging stat-lowering moves or abilities would be a great ability for Auru. I just don't feel like we do him justice with a useless ability, even if his other two work circumstantially well. He just can't net essential KOs without a boost, even ones that you'd really think he should or would get. Boosting is essential to Aurumoth's widespread success, and if we kill Illusion, which we should, we should replace it with an ability that still encourages boosting, albeit in a riskier form. Honestly, just like Prankster = Tomohawk, boosting = Aurumoth. But it's just unfair for a Pokemon of his power, middling as it is unboosted, to get an almost free Quiver Dance, or Dragon Dance, or Tail Glow because of Illusion. He needs an ability that encourages him to boost, but also makes it more dangerous for him and less dangerously mind-gamey for the opponent.

 

[snake]

I was already workin' on this before Snake posted, so I'mma just post it.
What exactly does Aurumoth's Psychic STAB threaten in CAP? Tomohawk, Mollux, Revenankh, Pheromosa, Crucibelle, Fidgit, Kerfluffle, prolly a few more. But wait!
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 326-386 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Threatening? Yes.
0 SpA Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 404-476 (110 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sadly, Tomo's stronger, and No Guard garuntees a Hurricane hit.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Pheromosa: 650-768 (229.6 - 271.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Threatening? Oh yeah.
4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 502-593 (136.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 312-369 (85 - 100.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Sadly, Phero is much faster.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scarf Mollux: 260-308 (78.5 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Threatening? Yes.
252 SpA Scarf Mollux Eruption (112 BP) vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 558-656 (152 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Scarf Mollux Fire Blast vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 546-644 (148.7 - 175.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sadly, Scarf Mollux is faster and more powerful.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4+ SpD Utility Mollux: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Threatening? Yes.
252 SpA Utility Mollux Lava Plume vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 398-470 (108.4 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sure, Mollux is extremely damaged, but Auru's dead.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 228-270 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Threatening? Yes.
252 Atk Crucibelle-Mega Head Smash vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 510-600 (138.9 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sadly, both normal and mega Cruci outspeed, and kill.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Fidgit: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Threatening? Yes.
0- Atk Fidgit U-turn vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 74-88 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
This is actually a good mon to set up on, if ya don't mind a layer of Spikes or Toxic Spikes on your side.
252 SpA Aurumoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kerfluffle: 306-360 (99 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Threatening? Yes.
Sadly, Kerfluffle is faster, and Parting Shot exists. It's really hard to set up on a Parting Shot. You get the boosted Speed, but that's really it.
This post is mostly just to show that many things that Aurumoth could switch into, thinking it can boost as itself, either outright kill him or leave him horribly maimed as he boosts, and easily revenge-killed, even with a boost. I believe that a great way to keep "risk and reward" alive on his sweeping sets would be to either lower these kinds of damages to the point where it's still debilitating, but not fatal, or make it so that his boosts mean "more", whatever that could mean, immediately or over time, even with near-fatal or fatal damage, given a Focus Sash. I really like the sound of an Aurumoth relying on less accurate, but powerful, coverage moves with No Guard, but I honestly still feel like Auru still needs a viable "risky" setup option, which an ability that keeps the damage he would retain from these strong attacks, leaving him at low HP but with boosts that will either continue to raise with time, or are immediately more noticeable, like Simple, or something similar. Heck, even Defiant, discouraging stat-lowering moves or abilities would be a great ability for Auru. I just don't feel like we do him justice with a useless ability, even if his other two work circumstantially well. He just can't net essential KOs without a boost, even ones that you'd really think he should or would get. Boosting is essential to Aurumoth's widespread success, and if we kill Illusion, which we should, we should replace it with an ability that still encourages boosting, albeit in a riskier form.

You make it sound like it's impossible to set up with Aurumoth though.

Oh no, Flynium Z Salamence can't set up against Mega Crucibelle, Syclant, Pheromosa, Ice Punch Mega Metagross, Protean Greninja, or Kerfluffle. Therefore, it's a terrible set up sweeper! Have you ever tried to set up against Mega Crucibelle with Salamence if the situation isn't dire? No, of course not. So why would you with Aurumoth? You set up with non-Illusion Aurumoth against non-Stone Edge Tapu Bulu, Garchomp, Choice-, and other things that just don't threaten Aurumoth. Not only this, but you've ignored that Aurumoth can run Life Orb and Psychium Z in your calcs, and runs Firium Z Overheat for Steel-type switch-ins. Also, against those some of the slower mons, Aurumoth can have the +1 boost and stomach the attacks a little better too. Few Tomohawk use Hurricane with uninvested Special Attack; Air Slash is much more common.

Aurumoth isn't going to play the same without Illusion, no matter what ability we could give it. However, Quiver Dance is still a massive boon for it, and it's still the boosting you want out of Aurumoth so much.

Also, we've discussed in this thread that +2 Aurumoth is when it gets ridiculous, and that's why Illusion makes it that good. So why are you suggesting Simple? It gives Aurumoth the +2 and the same situation it wants as Illusion gives it: +2 against the correct switch-in.

If I've missed the point of your post, let me know. Otherwise I don't understand what you're getting at.

 

[Granny Pie]

As soon as I saw the "snake_rattler quoted your post", I knew I was gonna die.
I was typing that before you posted, but posted late 'cause practice. It was meant to be a "Aurumoth has a lot of a harder time settin' up than we think it would" type of thing, but I was reminded of Weak Armor's slight boosting ability at the cost of Defense, which runs really well with Tail Glow (I love that idea, btw. High risk, but high reward if played right. Especially with Weak Armor's new +2 instead of +1.), and you introduced the idea of, kinda like Tomohawk, Aurumoth forgoing some STAB for godly coverage (which I also like the idea of. Jack-of-all-trades sorta deal." I guess I can now turn the post into a "without Illusion, setting up becomes a lot harder for Auru, which plays well with 'risk'" type o' thing, but at the time of posting I was basically like "Screw it, I spent time on this. Might as well. Maybe the numbers will be useful later." True, Aurumoth does not need an ability that encourages straight-up boosting the way that Aurumoth is used to, just coming in on a free switch and boosting, as Weak Armor can initiate a sequence like:
Chansey switched out!
Go Aurumoth!
Tapu Bulu used Superpower!
Aurumoth's Defense fell! (-1)
Aurumoth's Speed rose! (+2)
(252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 54-64 (14.7 - 17.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery)
Tapu Bulu switched out!
Go Fuck It, Aurumoth's Boosting And We're Screwed!
Aurumoth used Tail Glow!
AND THEN EVERYONE DIED.
That there is awesome. Strategy switching is inherently risky, and when it pays off, Aurumoth is set. But it won't pay off all the time.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth in Grassy Terrain: 244-288 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Beautiful. Painful, but beautiful. It really balances the whole "setup" thing of Aurumoth well.
But I'd be lying if I said I didn't imagine a Dragonite-like Aurumoth who could have Multiscale and boost with Dragon Dance or Quiver Dance after tanking a super-effective hit and activating a Weakness Policy. That'd be dope. It requires anti-hazard support, just like Dragonite, and can create a new Lum Berry variant of Aurumoth to counter those defensive mons who might beat the Multiscale version. These types of Aurumoth you have would have their own sets of checks and counters, just like defensive and offensive Tomohawk, or a-o-a Dragonite and wallbreaker Dragonite, which I believe is inherently risky to you, the player, depending on the team you come up against and which Aurumoth you have.
In short, we have so many better options to replace Illusion with than just some flavor ability. Aurumoth was born to boost. It's not impossible, especially now with Weak Armor's +2 Speed boost, but it is going to be more difficult without Illusion. Let's not make his setup a one-trick show. Let's give him some more options, ones that, by the sounds of them, would be more varying from each other than today's Aurumoths, and hence carry a certain amount of risk with their speciality. Weak Armor would play so much differently from Multiscale, focusing on high-risk strategy switching to get a huge, game-winning boost instead of the low-risk tanking a hit and getting a smaller, more manageable boost. Or even just going full out from the beginning and slapping Specs or a Scarf on No Guard. I just feel like that right there, those open options are more... Aurumoth than just killing Illusion without a viable replacement. I hope it'd be truer to his original concept.

 

[Okamu]

I don't know how to actually quote anything, so I'll just be manually doing it, but I take a good deal of issue with that argument above for replacing Illusion with another competitive ability. Personally, I find myself on the side of replacing Illusion with a flavor ability, since I would rather err on the side of Aurumoth being a bit harder to use than accidentally better than intended... again. But let's get back into what was said above.

Fist off: "These types of Aurumoth you have would have their own sets of checks and counters, just like defensive and offensive Tomohawk, or a-o-a Dragonite and wallbreaker Dragonite, which I believe is inherently risky to you, the player, depending on the team you come up against and which Aurumoth you have."

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding what's being said here, but I fail to see how simply having different sets creates risk. If I run Colossoil with an Assault Vest versus a Flame Orb, I do inherently change what role it plays in the Matchup. However, I still have 5 other Pokémon to balance that out. You seem to be implying that people would just mix around the sets as if they were interchangeable instead of picking one to start and then intelligently building around it to make the risk as low as possible. I think, basically, what I want to say here is that, if you have a variety of very good sets then all you've done is change the problem. Instead of dealing with Illusion moth getting to plus two due to its ability, you've created something that gets to the same place, basically just as easily in just as many situations due to Multiscale. Saying that the set is risky because the opponent could be running something for it is honestly confounding to me. Is running Tapu Lele risky because most teams have a check or the occasional full counter to it? No. Suggesting so would be ridiculous.

Secondly: "Aurumoth was born to boost. It's not impossible, especially now with Weak Armor's +2 Speed boost, but it is going to be more difficult without Illusion. Let's not make his setup a one-trick show."

Ok, again, I'm completely confused by this. The community decided Auru needed to be updated because it was very good and borderline oppressive to the metagame. The entire point of this is to make Aurumoth's setting up and sweeping not as easy as it currently is... That's literally why Illusion is trying to be removed, to force Aurumoth to be a bit harder to use effectively. Now, on to the second part of the statement, about one trick shows. Aurumoth, since like, always, has never been a one-trick show; that is my understanding at least. The crazy variety of moves it has, which only got better with the advent of Z power, inherently hade it hard to predict, and its three different modes of set up give variety to boosting as well. Tail Glow, Dragon Dance, and Quiver all have their own boons and busts, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention the amount of times I sent in my special wall on an Auru, only to have it use Dragon Dance in my face. Illusion only further exacerbates the crazy variety it has, variety which, when combined with its power and boosting, make Aurumoth the monster it currently is. Getting rid of Illusion and forcing Auru to use Weak Armor or No Guard isn't going to kill its variety to boost, it simply makes it a bit more difficult to get off and sweep, which is, again, what the update is trying to achieve: a slight nerf to effectiveness, not character and identity.

Thirdly-ish: "Let's give him some more options, ones that, by the sounds of them, would be more varying from each other than today's Aurumoths, and hence carry a certain amount of risk with their speciality."

Uh... huh? Again, I understand why people might be concerned about removing Illusion, but giving Aurumoth an equally, if not more viable alternative, only shifts the focus of the issue, as I mentioned before. More sets does NOT equal more risk; it in fact makes it harder for the opponent to address Auru, since it could be Weak Armor, No Guard, or whatever third competitive set you wish to propose. By the very act of giving it more sets, you decrease the risk associated with using it, because you've increased the probability that the opponent sends in the wrong check on your boost. I think I've beaten this point to death by now, but I just really want to make it clear what my view on that is.

Overall, I believe that Aurumoth is already a great mon, with and without Illusion. However, for the sake of freeing up the meta just a bit, Auru can most definitely go without. The large viability of sets it can run independent of ability is striking, and that inherent, movepool-based variety is essential to Auru's current identity. By getting rid of Illusion and replacing it with yet another competitive ability risks running the exact same problem that got us here in the first place: the extreme enhancement of Auru's variety-based viability through a strong competitive ability. Giving Auru more options simply doesn't solve the problem we're trying to tackle here. Again, I'm very sorry if I took this the wrong way, but I really just don't understand what's trying to be said in this particular defense of another competitive ability.

 

[Drapionswing]

I really like the sound of an Aurumoth relying on less accurate, but powerful, coverage moves with No Guard, but I honestly still feel like Auru still needs a viable "risky" setup option, which an ability that keeps the damage he would retain from these strong attacks, leaving him at low HP but with boosts that will either continue to raise with time, or are immediately more noticeable, like Simple, or something similar.

First of all why the actual fuck do you want a potential +6 aurumoth going around? It gets Tail Glow remember? This post wasn't well thought out at all.

Secondly Aurumoth losing illusion is not going to be the end of the world yes it will lose some viability but that's literally the point of removing it. It's too fucking good. If we're removing an ability that's too fucking good why would we replace it with another good ability? It doesn't really make sense from a competitive, or practical stand point.

Thirdly you literally calc'd all of aurus calcs without life orb lol but with no guard more than likely being the premier set life orb will be more common than z-overheat because you want to abuse your coverage options to the fullest extent ( I'm not ruling out z moves being a set on auru).

Lastly just like any other setup sweeper you set your wincon up on something that can't oppose it or harm it, yes it will find less setup opportunities than before but that was literally the problem and why we want to remove illusion. It allowed a setup sweeper virtual free setup if played right which isn't fair if a pokemon ALWAYS has free set up. We don't want aurumoth having nearly as many setup opportunities as it did before, we don't want it's boosting option to be as good as it was before and illusion was making it extremely good. We don't need multiscale auru or simple auru there's nothing risky about it any of those suggestions, and are ANTI CONCEPT you show us that setting up on a tapu bulu is dangerous... which is once again literally what we want we want a sweeper that isn't safe all the time and simply keeping it with no guard and weak armour is enough to make it risky.

I genuinely think you're missing the point of the removal of Illusion.

 

[Granny Pie]

I genuinely think you're missing the point of the removal of Illusion.

In all honesty, I probably am.
I've seen what ya'll have had to say, and I'm not apologizing for my views, however wrong they may seem in your eyes. ... They're probably really wrong, 'cause literally everybody is opposing it.
But I really like what Okamu said:

I would rather err on the side of Aurumoth being a bit harder to use than accidentally better than intended.

It sheds a bit of light on my own argument. I guess I'm the devil's advocate pushing for a stronger rather than a weaker Aurumoth, no matter how strong that weakened version still is. But what he said is probably true of everyone here. I suppose I haven't had enough time here to be poisoned by Aurumoth's Illusion antics yet, and at this point I'm just pushing to recover a little bit of free setup he has today, something I, with new-ish eyes, have been enamored with. I've never seen anything like it, but I have seen how powerful it is. That's the point, doh. It's too powerful. And ya'll have had more time to become hardened to Aurumoth's free opportunities. I can see why the community would want to rid itself of that entirely. Thank you for your insight. It's made me look at this golden bug a little differently. I like the different ideas being presented, and I do admit that they'd be a fun alternative to Aurumoth the Meat Grinder. I guess my glowing wonder for this moth just hasn't faded yet. I'm sorry for presenting a poor argument, even if I'm not sorry for having it, and I'm glad that we had this discussion. It adds new, clearer info on Aurumoth and what we as a general community want to do with it. I hate to see my Gold Bug get transformed like this, but it's probably what's healthiest for the metagame. Even if I don't support your views, I do understand them. Thank you for your thoughts. I needed to hear them.

 

[Eris]

I don't know how to actually quote anything, so I'll just be manually doing it, but I take a good deal of issue with that argument above for replacing Illusion with another competitive ability. Personally, I find myself on the side of replacing Illusion with a flavor ability, since I would rather err on the side of Aurumoth being a bit harder to use than accidentally better than intended... again. But let's get back into what was said above.

Easiest way is to click on the "reply" button at the end of a post.

Also while I'm here, I'll talk a little more on why I believe is best if we're taking out Illusion or Quiver Dance, Illusion should be removed instead of Quiver Dance, I'm going to say a little on why I think so.

It is so very easy to set up with Aurumoth and the fact that it doesn't even have a proper counter is why Illusion makes it so "over powered". Illusion makes it hard for one to predict (unless sr are up and your "steel" type loses 20% hp off from it) and very strong to the point where it has been S ranked for a couple of years now.
While Quiver Dance covers all of its statistic flaws, Aurumoth can barely set up without illusion, which leads to why, when it has an ability else than illusion it usually doesn't set up with Quiver Dance, but with Tail Glow. This point shows that Quiver Dance isn't the main problem with Aurumoth. Getting rid of illusion makes the whole over powered side a completely new one, while no guard and weak armor are not as good as illusion, they are still very much viable meaning that Aurumoth won't even lose that much viability.

 

[cbrevan]

Hey guys. First off I'd like to say that we've had a good discussion so far, and I like where its going. It seems to me that most people agree that Illusion is one of the biggest reasons why Aurumoth is too powerful in the current metagame. With that in mind, I'd like to push this thread into discussing Aurumoth with the assumption that Illusion will be removed. Specifically, I want us to figure out if any other changes would be needed in addition to a change to Illusion, or if removing Illusion would be enough. Also, I'd like to see some discussion on what should happen to the ability slot Illusion will void. Should Aurumoth receive another competitive ability, or should it be receive a flavour ability?

Additionally, the general consensus of this thread has been that Aurumoth is overly viable as a sweeper, and that some aspects of it needs to be toned down to fix this. For anyone making suggestions that would improve Aurumoth's ability as a sweeper, I'd like them to keep this in mind when posting and the reasons why the consensus is this way.

That's all I have for now, so please continue discussing.