CaP Updates IOA Tutors

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DHR-107

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Orange Islands
Hey all,

The time has come for us to look at the Movepool Updates for CaP from the Isle Of Armour DLC. Fortunately, there were only 18 moves added in the DLC (one for each type), and a number of them are not that competitive on most of our CaP Pokemon. We have tried to keep additions limited to the "similar style" of Pokemon that GameFreak have given the additions too. In some instances this is fairly straight forward (Coaching is on all Fighting types), but in others its not so easy (See Flip Turn or Terrain Pulse's odd distribution).

There may be some discussion over whether or not some of these moves will be buffs to certain Pokemon, but I believe we have covered most bases in the information listed below.

I have had extensive discussions with the Metagame Council over the following spreadsheet and I hope it makes sense to you guys.

CaP Updates Sheet

The council and I believe additions which are:
Listed in Green should be applicable to the Pokemon in question without needing much discussion (Coaching Tomohawk or Dual Wingbeat Aurumoth for example).

Listed in Orange should be applicable to the Pokemon in question without issues, but we wish to discuss these with the community at large (Burning Jealousy Astrolotl or Scale Shot Malaconda) for speed.

Listed in Red are moves which the Council and I believe need to have deeper discussion (Meteor Beam Stratagem or Scorching Sands Equilibra) and will need significant discussion to support their additions to various Pokemon. Red is not a "This will never happen" tag, it's more of a "We definitely want to talk about this before we do it because of its likely competitive implications" tag. Most moves in Red will likely be a competitive buff to the Pokemon in question and this is why we need to handle these with care. Flip Turn is the exception to this, as with its wonky distribution, we have labelled all Water types in Red so we can decide who does and doesn't receive it.

When a move is "decided" on, it will turn Green as an addition, or turn Black as a turned down move. This is so we don't keep going over the same moves once something has been decided on.

We will hopefully be opening discussion on Discord within the next few hours (look for the #ioa_updates channel) and are aiming to have this nailed down into the new year so we can implement them as soon as possible. We are currently looking at discussing a few moves each week until they are all done (Approximately 6 moves per week, but if we feel discussion is progressing quickly, we will probably speed up).

Finished Moves:

Poltergeist: Kitsunoh, Revenankh.
Misty Explosion: Jumbao, Kerfluffle.
Scorching Sands: Astrolotl, Colossoil, Fidgit, Pyroak, Smokomodo, Volkraken.
Corrosive Gas: Mollux.
Expanding Force: Aurumoth.
Triple Axel: Syclant.
Scale Shot: Malaconda, Naviathan, Smokomodo.
Meteor Beam: Astrolotl, Crucibelle, Stratagem.
Burning Jealousy: Kitsunoh, Pyroak, Smokomodo, Voodoom.
Skitter Smack: Aurumoth, Arghonaut, Fidgit, Kitsunoh, Malaconda, Mollux, Necturna, Snaelstrom, Syclant, Volkraken

Going to a forum poll: Scale Shot Astrolotl, Corrosive Gas Plasmanta, Corrosive Gas Smokomodo, Burning Jealousy Volkraken.

snake_rattler Mx and quziel will hopefully be leading these discussions.

EDIT: Purple has been added as an additional colour for options we believe need to be polled on the forums
 
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Bughouse

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I have no competitive issues with any of the orange (or green) moves, though I do disagree on a few of them for flavor.

The ones that in particular jump out to me as the worst flavor are:
Burning Jealousy on Pajantom (not undead, just sleeping)
Scale Shot on Colossoil (it's a land whale, not a reptile/other scaled creature)
Steel Roller on Fidgit and Cawmodore (Fidgit rolling seems implausible with all those arms and Cawmodore would be weird rolling with wings. The only flying mon that learns steel roller is celesteela, who is decidedly "rounder" and less "winged".)

Other than these I think adding all the orange (and green) moves would be perfectly reasonable.

In terms of the more controversial prospects in red:

Rising Terrain - no reason imo not to give to Krilowatt

Triple Axel - yes on Syclant, but no Necturna (very few floaties get it especially when you factor out ones that have grounded pre-evolutions, so bad flavor imo - it literally doesn't have legs, and Necturna generally speaking should have little coverage due to Sketch concept stuff. Ice would be a big and entirely unnecessary change.)

Flip Turn - I have no concerns giving this to mons who can already pivot with a STAB move in general. So Krilowatt and Snaelstrom are non-concerns for me. Give it to them. Volkraken is a bigger concern competitive-wise although it already learns U-Turn, this would be a big upgrade in terms of the damage output on the pivoting move. It's also bad flavor since the other octopi don't learn it. I'd prefer for Volkraken and Arghonaut not to get it.

Poltergeist - do NOT add to Necturna. This is literally as bad as Phantom Force (probably worse really). Pajantom probably wouldn't be 100% busted with it, but it would be 1) considerably better, 2) it's already good, and 3) it was literally designed around Spirit Shackle, so this is an unwelcome distraction that removes the CAPs identity. So don't add to Pajantom either. No concerns adding it to Kitsunoh or Revenankh.

Meteor Beam - I think this is probably ok everywhere, even on Stratagem. It's only really a move when paired with Power Herb, and Astrolotl and Aurumoth would rather hold other items. For Stratagem, I do recognize it's a "faster" mode to boosting than Calm Mind, but ultimately, it's still going to end up wanting to run Paleo Wave too for its reliable STAB option after it gets the boost, so it doesn't really free up a move slot. It just offers Stratagem a mode of being more of a one time sweep threat with the boost vs a more reliable damage output via Life Orb. As Stratagem isn't particularly great right now, this is unlikely to push it over the edge and may even barely be an improvement at all.

Scale Shot - I probably should be more concerned about this given past experiences around Flame Charge Smokomodo, but flavorwise at least it's hard to avoid giving it and so it needs pretty strong competitive justification. Smokomodo isn't great right now, and while it will likely be a good move for it, I don't think Scale Shot is particularly likely to break it... one of the tougher choices imo.

Scorching Sands - The sheet's description is wrong. There are are plenty of Ground types who do NOT learn scorching sands, and this being Scald-esque is a huge competitive consideration. Gastrodon, Stunfisk, and Mudsdale are all Ground types that don't learn it for example. As it is far from required, and it would be a HUGE buff imo to Equilibra to be able to cause burns, it should not be added. Mollux meanwhile would gain super relevant coverage for beating Toxapex/other Mollux/Heatran. It feels unnecessary and is also not strictly speaking required, as not all fully evolved fire pokemon learn Scorching Sands either. Blacephalon, Volcarona, and Salazzle for example do not. I would not give Scorching Sands to Mollux either.
 
I'd like to give my thoughts on all the red options as well.

Flip Turn -- I think mons that don't already have access to U-Turn should not gain access to Flip Turn. That is to say, Arghonaut and Krilowatt should not get Flip Turn, while Volkraken and Snaelstrom should. I would especially warn against Arghonaut getting it, as that could turn into a very annoying mon very quickly, essentially being a much better Swampert. While it might make Snaelstrom a little more annoying to deal with, that mon is really overblown anyways and I think Flip Turn won't break it in any way.

Meteor Beam -- This one's a little tough for me. While I don't think it would be broken necessarily on Astrolotl, it really doesn't need it, so I would say no. It fits on Aurumoth in terms of the fact that it boosts multiple ways, but it could get out of hand, so I would also say no to be safe on Aurumoth. Stratagem is a definite no from me. Stratagem has a place in the meta already, and Meteor Beam would completely take over the role Paleo Wave plays on Stratagem sets and would turn Stratagem into a much more dangerous sweeper than it already is. Essentially, none of these CAPs should get access to Meteor Beam

Poltergeist -- People have expressed worry about Kitsunoh getting Poltergeist, but I think it should be fine. Kitsunoh is in need of some buffs anyways, and I think Poltergeist would be a great place to start. Bonus points for flavor!

Rising Voltage -- Given that Tapu Koko is not super common in CAP at the moment (I would rank it at a B- or C+ in viability, personally), I think it would be fine for Krilowatt to get Rising Voltage. If VoltTurn between Koko and Kril gets too out of hand, it should be taken away quickly, but I think it should be fine, especially since the other electric types of CAP are going to get it.

Scale Shot -- Scale Shot is not that great of a move, so I'm not sure why it's "red" on Smokomodo. I think it should be allowed flavor-wise, though I really doubt it'll see use as Garchomp will always be a much better user of the move.

Scorching Sands -- I really don't want to see this on Equilibra. It would make the matchup into it so much harder. Same goes for Mollux, and while I don't think it should be run, it breaks down some of Mollux's normal counters like Heatran. That being said, I think it would be great on Volkraken, as it would help a lot in the Mollux matchup and slightly in the Toxapex matchup. Considering Volkraken is currently unranked, I see no reason to skimp on the move.

Triple Axel -- Syclant has longed for more consistent physical STAB for a while. Since most other Ice types have access to it, including Weavile, I would feel alright temporarily saying yes on Triple Axel for Syclant, though I could be convinced otherwise. Necturna is an interesting idea. I'm undecided on it, though I feel that it would be fine as it doesn't add too much to her coverage pool outside of mons like Hydreigon that isn't already covered by Ghost/Grass.
 
Hey I don’t know if anyone thinks this is a good idea but I think that giving Krilowatt the move Triple Axel could have merit.
 

Mx

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Hey everyone, we have finished our first day of updates! We've managed to tackle 9 moves today, which means that hopefully we should be able to finish everything by tomorrow. I've updated the OP to include the list of updates we've made so far.
 

Deck Knight

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I like the initial spreadsheet. Some thoughts:

Scale Shot Smokomodo: The entire issue with Flame Charge was Tech STAB Flame Charge would have been incredible momentum, with an effective base power of 112.5. Scale Shot can hit this on 3 hits or more, so about 67% of the time. On the other hand, Scale Shot doesn't have perfect accuracy, has inconsistent power, and it's coverage against Dragons I suppose. Smokomodo ended up with no Dragon moves at all in the final movepool because the Mega Latis were supposed to be counters. Scale Shot would violate that aspect of the Pokemon, however the Latis aren't yet released and no other Dragon types were identified as Counters. Smokomodo has never favored Technician over Blaze because Earthquake is so much more consistent than Bone Rush. Scale Shot would not have been as good at role compression as Flame Charge, and while it has a larger suite of neutral targets, it doesn't have the same number of super-effective targets that also made Flame Charge a sweeping threat.

There's also this calc:
252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Smokomodo in Grassy Terrain: 426-503 (134.3 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Smokomodo's physical frailty does it no favors with the defense drop, especially against priority. Even if Rillaboom didn't have the Life Orb via Knick Off, it would still OHKO at -1.

Rising Voltage Voodoom: Voodoom is in a weird place where it lacks power, but it's nearly perfect as a Pokemon that can benefit from Electric Terrain without being vulnerable to it. Dazzling Gleam from Koko wipes it out anyway, but Voodoom is an excellent answer to Volt Switch under Terrain, especially against a pivot like Krilowatt.

Meteor Beam Astrolotl: It feels like a distraction that would only be used as a gimmick (Magician Power Herb), and Astro already had to be nerfed because it's toolkit was too large.

Triple Axel Necturna: Hard No. Necty does not need natural boltbeam coverage with Thunder Fang + Triple Axel. Just because both of those moves are kind of underwheliming on their own doesn't mean we should add it. Necturna's movepool was vastly restricted exactly because of potentially toxic interactions like that. Shell Smash would love to abuse an addition like that. (Mmmm, Shell Smash King's Rock TFang/TAxel/Shadow Claw)

Scorching Sands Volkraken: Hard No. I don't think it's wise to give QuakeEdge coverage to Volkraken to supplement its absurdly powerful Specs Analytic STAB combo. Scorching Sands gives Kraken an easy way to annihilate Toxapex and it's far too competitive to be listed as flavor. Not to mention random burns can cripple checks that would target Kraken's weaker physical defense. Scorching Sands is a Scald that nukes Pex.

Calc: 252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 226-266 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Volkraken Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Flip Turn: Approve on Krilowatt and Snaelstrom, disapprove on Arghonaut and Volkraken. Octillery didn't get Flip Turn even though it's pre-evolution is a fish. While I'm somewhat concerned that Water immunity is harder to come by than Electric for Krilowatt, Krilowatt absolutely can't afford to split offensive EVs and CAP has additional viable water immunities.

Thoughts outside of the spreadsheet:

Steel Roller Stratagem: It's easily the roundest CAP, and actually fast enough to be meritable as a Terrain canceler.

Terrain Pulse: It has a really strange distribution, oddly falling mostly on Chlorophyll Pokemon, Mega Launcher associated Pokemon, Pokemon that naturally learn Aura Sphere, and random Normal types. Pyroak, Malaconda, and Voodoom fit that description the most.
 
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G-Luke

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I believe this is an oversight, but Naviathan should be in contention for Flip Turn.

Otherwise I agree with most of what was already said, and with the distributions of moves so far.
 
Flip Turn:

:arghonaut: Arghonaut is one of two Water type CAPs that is not already able to pivot, and Flip Turn would undoubtedly be a very potent option on it. Unaware would probably be similar to how Swampert currently plays, trading the Electric immunity and SR for Spikes, Recover and a much better ability. It would be unique as an Unaware Pokémon that fits easily outside of stall. On the other hand, perhaps more worrisome, is Technician; this ability boosts Flip Turn's base power, reaching a respectable 90 (stronger than Liquidation) and would allow Arghonaut to run a scary Choice Band set, with Close Combat as a secondary STAB, options to pick one (or both) Technician boosted priority, and access to a wide array of coverage options (Earthquake/Bulldoze, Gunk Shot, Knock Off, Thunder Punch) to kill potential switchins. Leaning towards No for it, mainly because of the Technician sets over the Unaware ones.

:krilowatt: Although Krilowatt is already capable of pivoting with Volt Switch, one must not overlook the fact that Flip Turn would allow it to use fully physical sets with a lot less opportunity cost. Physical sets are capable of circumventing certain threats such as Blissey (3HKO'd by Wild Charge), Ferrothorn (3HKO'd by Low Kick), Tyranitar (soft check, OHKO'd by Low Kick) and can pivot against everything except Water immunities (which are threatened by Earthquake or Wild Charge, aside from Seismitoad). Unlike every other physical pivot, being a Magic Guard Electric type means not being bothered by Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs or Static, only about Flame Body (you won't take Burn damage even then). and the main Flame Body users don't want to get anywhere near you. Maybe I am overrating physical Krilowatt, but I don't think it's an option that it really needs to have.

:naviathan: I am leaning No for Naviathan for two reasons. The first is flavor, it has a large body and seems a slow swimmer so not really something I could imagine using the move, the second is that it would be a distraction from its intended role as a setup sweeper. It wouldn't be a very good pivot due to lacking other utility, but a Steel type with recovery and who resists Fire and Water simultaneously can be alluring.

:snaelstrom: Plain and simple, I think Flip Turn is outclassed by U-turn on Snaelstrom because it is stronger and has no immunities beyond Shedinja, allowing it to always get to pivot out. Flip Turn is maybe useful to damage something like Heatran more significantly while pivoting but hardly worth the trade off. As for running both, it might seem interesting to have two STAB pivoting moves backed by 64 total PP, but it doesn't leave room for other utility moves like Scald, and frankly Snaelstrom is a mediocre pivot as is because of its Rock weakness and Poison Heal actually incentivizing you to stay in. I don't see the harm of Flip Turn Snaelstrom and would say Yes to it.

:volkraken: Similar to above, Volkraken has a pathetic attack stat, and the comment above stating that Flip Turn would be a damage upgrade is not even always true. Against neutral targets, Flip Turn is barely stronger (10% instead of 7% against Blissey with an Analytic boost), but most Volkraken switchins resist Water and are neutral or weak to Bug, making U-turn stronger in many situations where Volkraken wants to pivot instead of clicking Specs Hydro. And being blocked by immunities is never a good thing so I would never run Flip Turn over U-turn on Volk, and I would say Yes to it as it's effectively just a flavor option.
 

Mx

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Hey everyone, we're aiming on doing another round of tutors today at 4 PM EST (2 hours from now), so hop onto our Discord server if you're interested in participating!
 

Mx

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Alright, after yesterday's poll, we have officially finished with all Isle of Armor tutors! Thanks everyone who participated, both in the forums and Discord. Here's a summary of all additions:
Arghonaut: Coaching, Lash Out, Skitter Smack.
Astrolotl: Meteor Beam, Scorching Sands.
Aurumoth: Dual Wingbeat, Expanding Force, Skitter Smack, Terrain Pulse.
Caribolt: Grassy Glide, Rising Voltage, Terrain Pulse.
Cawmodore: Dual Wingbeat.
Colossoil: Lash Out, Scorching Sands.
Crucibelle: Meteor Beam, Steel Roller.
Cyclohm: Rising Voltage.
Equilibra: Steel Roller.
Fidgit: Scorching Sands, Skitter Smack.
Jumbao: Grassy Glide, Misty Explosion.
Kerfluffle: Coaching, Misty Explosion.
Kitsunoh: Poltergeist, Skitter Smack.
Krilowatt: Flip Turn, Rising Voltage.
Malaconda: Grassy Glide, Lash Out, Scale Shot, Skitter Smack.
Mollux: Corrosive Gas, Skitter Smack.
Naviathan: Scale Shot, Steel Roller.
Necturna: Grassy Glide, Skitter Smack.
Pajantom: None.
Plasmanta: Corrosive Gas, Rising Voltage.
Pyroak: Burning Jealousy, Grassy Glide, Scorching Sands, Terrain Pulse.
Revenankh: Coaching, Poltergeist.
Smokomodo: Burning Jealousy, Corrosive Gas, Scale Shot, Scorching Sands.
Snaelstrom: Dual Wingbeat, Skitter Smack.
Stratagem: Meteor Beam.
Syclant: Dual Wingbeat, Skitter Smack, Triple Axel.
Tomohawk: Coaching, Dual Wingbeat.
Volkraken: Burning Jealousy, Flip Turn, Scorching Sands, Skitter Smack.
Voodoom: Burning Jealousy, Coaching, Lash Out, Rising Voltage.
Tagging Marty to implement this when possible.
 
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