CAP Updates: Syclant Discussion (Complete)

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The other reason is for Dual Chop, (as I mentioned before, +1 Dual Chop gibs CharX) - although as it doesn't really learn other Dragon Moves you could possibly find a reason not to include it.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Syclant imagine that this is a Final Submission ;D

-Icicle Spear
-Leer
-Absorb
Evo: Ice Punch

5 Ice Shard
10 Focus Energy
14 Fury Attack
19 Icy Wind
23 Fury Cutter
28 Slash
32 X-Scissor
37 Hail
41 Icicle Crash
46 Bug Buzz
50 Avalanche
55 Rock Climb
59 Sheer Cold

To begin, streamlined the leveling to a 4-5 format, since levels were all over the place on the old one. Since most mons don't get Fury Attack as a starting move, I moved it down to its current level. Pretty sure its a sin not to give it Icicle Spear, so added it as a starting move to replace it. Due to changes to Leech Life, it was changed to Absorb in its moveset, also giving it its only Grass type move its arsenal \o/. Ice Punch was changed to an evolution move, since that was the original intent of the creators. I noticed that there were not too many early game bug moves on it, so Fury Cutter was added to fix this, and it blends well with its relentless attacking and was already present in its Tutors. Icicle Crash is a move widely accepted by the consensus, and fits well with Syclant's flavor, so it was added later in the movepool. Some moves were rearranged in the course of this, as some additions didn't make sense when they were early. Finally, Rock Climb was added in as a Level Up move, as it flows well with Mountaineer.

Counter (Heracross)
Double-Edge (Heracross)

Earth Power
Fell Stinger (Beedrill)
Mimic (various mons in the Bug Egg group)
Pin Missile
Signal Beam (Galvantula)
Spikes
Superpower
Tail Glow

The weird gen 3 tutor moves are moved here, those being Counter, Double-Edge, and Mimic. Fell Stinger generally correlates well with Syclant's aggressive nature, and is learned by a similarly aggressive mon in Beedrill. Signal Beam is learned by a good number of Bug types, and fits well with Syclant's slight special focus.

TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM59 Brutal Swing
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM72 Avalanche
TM75 Swords Dance
TM78 Bulldoze
TM79 Frost Breath

TM80 Rock Slide
TM81 X-Scissor
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide

Leech Life was already present on Syclant, but had to be moved down to here. Sleep Talk changed numbers, so that also had to be moved. Bulldoze is move-to-move, since it has Earthquake. Frost Breath is learned by a ton of Ice types, and Syclant seems to fit this as well. Brutal Swing works with its aggressive nature. Round and Confide are required universal moves.

Bug Bite
Earth Power
Focus Punch
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Signal Beam
Snore
Superpower
Water Pulse

These three moves were on Syclant at some point, where Water Pulse and Focus Punch were once TMs, and Signal Beam is a new Egg move.

Captivate (G4 TM78)
Cut (HM01)
Endure (G4 TM56)
Hone Claws (G5/6 TM01)
Natural Gift (G4 TM83)
Rock Smash (G4/ORAS HM06 / G5/XY TM94)
Secret Power (G4 TM43 / ORAS TM94)
Strength (HM04)
String Shot (G4 Tutor)
Struggle Bug (G5/6 TM76)

Struggle Bug is incredibly common on Bug types, while Hone Claws is incredibly common on clawed mons.
 
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snake_rattler

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Finalized just in case, but I'd appreciate reasoning for/against a couple potential additions:
- Poison Jab is common among Pokémon with any sort or stringer/protrusion, but it adds coverage.
- Lunge is sparsely distributed but consistent with a predatory bug, but its Attack-lowering effect could prove troublesome.
- Aurora Veil fits an Ice-type with crystals, but has a very strong effect albeit in a weak weather.
- Hone Claws is widespread among clawed Pokémon and outclassed by Swords Dance with Compound Eyes, but it might be overwhelming with Mountaineer.
- Acrobatics and Steel Wing add new potentially useful coverage.
Let's avoid different coverage options if at all possible. Everything else is fine.
 

snake_rattler

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Final Submission

- Fury Cutter
- Leer
- Absorb
Evolve: Ice Punch
5 Icicle Spear
9 Focus Energy
13 Bug Bite
18 Fury Attack
22 Ice Shard
26 Icy Wind
31 Entrainment
35 Slash
39 Hail
44 X-Scissor
48 Avalanche
52 Rock Climb
57 Swords Dance
61 Icicle Crash
65 Sheer Cold

- Fury Cutter
- Leer
- Absorb
Evolve: Ice Punch
5 Icicle Spear
9 Focus Energy
13 Struggle Bug
18 Fury Attack
22 Ice Shard
26 Icy Wind
31 Mimic
35 Slash
39 Hail
44 Tail Glow
48 Ice Beam
52 Bug Buzz
57 Blizzard

In sample: Mimic (Entrainment), Struggle Bug (Bug Bite), Ice Beam (Icicle Crash), Bug Buzz (X-Scissor), Tail Glow (Swords Dance)

Pre-evolution Only: Mimic, Bug Buzz

So Syclant and Syclar remind me of Pokemon that are mixed attackers, but the pre-evolution has a more specially biased movepool, while the evolved form has a more physically biased movepool, akin to Sewaddle and Leavanny or Mudkip and Swampert. I made this the case for Syclant's movepool, as it learns loads of physical moves, whereas Syclar (hypothetically) learns more special moves. The only pre-evolution only moves that this submission that HAVE to be on Syclar would be Mimic (copies the actions of a wiser Syclant) and Bug Buzz (pre-evolution only move of Sewaddle/Leavanny); any other move that I've included in a sample Syclar movepool can be learned in other ways. In no way is this Syclar movepool supposed to be official, but it's supposed to give an idea of what my thought process. Otherwise, this movepool has a 5-4-4 trend (except at the beginning), aims to have a general progression of more powerful moves, sneaks in a couple of status moves like Entrainment and Swords Dance, adds in a flavorful moves in Rock Climb, Icicle Spear, and Icicle Crash, and adds in Absorb.
Aurora Beam (Araquanid)
Counter (Heracross)
Double-Edge (Heracross)
Earth Power
Fell Stinger (Beedrill)
Pin Missile
Superpower
Spikes
Tail Glow

Counter and Double-Edge are Gen 3 Move Tutors. Aurora Beam is the only offensive Ice-type move a Bug Egg Group mon can offer, so here it is. I like Fell Stinger as an egg move better.
Bug Bite
Earth Power
Electroweb
Focus Punch
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Mimic
Signal Beam
Snore
Superpower
Water Pulse

Electroweb is learned by String Shot users; Signal Beam is a cool Bug-type STAB that's actually implied by Tail Glow. Note that Mimic is solved by making it a Pre-evolution only move.
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM59 Brutal Swing
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM75 Swords Dance
TM78 Bulldoze
TM79 Frost Breath

TM80 Rock Slide
TM81 X-Scissor
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide

Bulldoze is implied by Earthquake. Frost Breath is generally implied by Ice-type. Round and Confide is universal. Brutal Swing is flavorful imo. Sleep Talk changed number.
Captivate
Cut
Endure
Hone Claws
Natural Gift
Rock Smash
Secret Power
Silver Wind
Strength
String Shot
Struggle Bug

Added Hone Claws. Note that Struggle Bug can be removed if it appears in Syclar movepool since it wouldn't be Transfer ONLY.
Additions:
Absorb added at Level 1
Aurora Beam added to Egg Moves
Brutal Swing added to TM List
Bulldoze added to TM List
Confide added to TM List
Electroweb added to Tutor Moves
Entrainment added at Level 26
Fell Stinger added to Egg Moves
Frost Breath added to TM List
Hone Claws added to Transfer Only
Icicle Spear added at Level 5
Icicle Crash added at Level 61
Rock Climb added at Level 52
Round added to TM List
Struggle Bug added to Transfer Only

Within Movepool:
Levels changed on appropriate moves

Bug Buzz moved from Level Up to Pre-Evolution Only
Captivate moved from TM List to Transfer Only
Counter moved from Tutor Moves to Egg Moves
Cut moved from HM List to Transfer Only
Double-Edge moved from Tutor Moves to Egg Moves
Endure moved from TM List to Transfer Only
Focus Punch moved from TM List to Tutor Moves
Fury Cutter moved from Tutor Moves to Level 1
Ice Punch moved from Level 30 to Evolve
Mimic moved from Tutor Moves to Pre-Evolution Only
Natural Gift moved from TM List to Transfer Only
Rock Smash moved from HM List to Transfer Only
Secret Power moved from TM List to Transfer Only
Sleep Talk changed number
Silver Wind moved from TM List to Transfer Only
Strength moved from HM List to Transfer Only
String Shot moved from Tutor Moves to Transfer Only
Water Pulse moved from TM List to Tutor Moves

Duplications:
Bug Bite duplicated from Tutor Moves to Level 13
Swords Dance duplicated from TM List to Level 52
 
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snake_rattler

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24 hour warning for movepool poll, get those Final Submissions up

Made a movepool submission of my own because I had a neato idea for Syclant, but if anyone objects to my submission (given that I'm leading the update), I won't submit.
 
24 hour warning for movepool poll, get those Final Submissions up

Made a movepool submission of my own because I had a neato idea for Syclant, but if anyone objects to my submission (given that I'm leading the update), I won't submit.
I'd be fine with it. I mean, HeaL made a statement as a user and not as a TL on an earlier update, so you're fine.
 
snake_rattler There shouldn't be a problem with submitting your own movepool if you're doing so as a user. You're doing that just fine, so you should be good to go. :)
 

HeaLnDeaL

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I want to strongly advocate against the inclusion of Aurora Veil. Ninetales-A shares almost the same physical bulk as Syclant but is still a great user of Aurora Veil. yes, we all know Syclant isn't summoning hail by itself and yes it would cost Syclant a coverage slot to use Aurora Veil. But as a supporting move, Veil is insanely good and I don't see any reason to take a risk on this. It is very very feasible for Syclant to be used on a Hail team and I don't like the competitive ramifications of this move at all. Syclant's blazing fast speed almost guarantees that it can set Aurora Veil up as long as its team provides the hail.

Deck Knight, I urge you to consider minus one-ing this move :c
 

G-Luke

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I want to strongly advocate against the inclusion of Aurora Veil. Ninetales-A shares almost the same physical bulk as Syclant but is still a great user of Aurora Veil. yes, we all know Syclant isn't summoning hail by itself and yes it would cost Syclant a coverage slot to use Aurora Veil. But as a supporting move, Veil is insanely good and I don't see any reason to take a risk on this. It is very very feasible for Syclant to be used on a Hail team and I don't like the competitive ramifications of this move at all. Syclant's blazing fast speed almost guarantees that it can set Aurora Veil up as long as its team provides the hail.

Deck Knight, I urge you to consider minus one-ing this move :c
A solid counter argument to this is that that requires the stacking of two mons that share basically the same weaknesses on a team, limiting its overall effectiveness. Might I remind you that Hail teams in general are not a thing, and won't become a thing due to Aurora Veil Syclant. Its also not only complete waste of Syclant's potential, but its also not very useful at all once you think about it. It requires giving up both an Item slot AND a moveslot to run a suboptimal set, that truly can be viablily run by one mon by itself. It would be much more reliable to simply run Ninetales-A and play conservatively. Aurora Veil Syclant is about as useful as Lazer Focus Strategem.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Syclant could change its item to Light Clay if running Aurora Veil, but it is by no means required to do so. Saying Aurora Veil is a waste of Syclant's potential is a gross mischaracterization of the insane utility of the move Aurora Veil and ignores the fact the Syclant commonly has a utility move such as Spikes anyway. Syclant has already commonly been used on Hail Teams regardless of poor "weakness stack" arguments and it's irresponsible not to see this move for what it is. Giving Aurora Veil to one of CAP's most common hailmon partners is a big warning sign.

It's a significant buff for a consistency mon that has real competitive applications and honestly suspect flavor. I'm not saying consistency mons shouldn't have any consistency buffs that are also competitive, but the key to such buffs are consistency. We gave Krilowatt Volt Switch knowing it was competitively relevant because pretty much every Electric-type learned it. Aurora Veil on Syclant I believe has much more competitive merit than Volt Switch on Kril and has much less consistency for flavor. There are only a few Pokemon that learn this move and I think the argument that it is learned by mons that are partly/completely "made of ice" is not entirely correct. Beartic has an icicle beard and doesn't learn it, Kyurem has wings that look like ice and it doesn't learn it, and Avalugg, Glalie, and the Vanilluxe line are hunks of ice and don't learn it.
 

snake_rattler

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Syclant doesn't need more utility options when Aurora Veil's flavor is sketchy at best. I'd say its OO given how fast of a user it is and can set it up as it gets knocked out, even if it's on a very specific team archetype. Just playing it safe; no Aurora Veil. I'll be checking Final Submissions and when a) every final submission has removed Aurora Veil or b) 24 hours have passed (just to be fair to everyone), I'll set up the poll.
 

snake_rattler

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Oops, never made a final post here. Congratulations to LucarioOfLegends for winning the movepool poll!

This concludes Syclant's update. To sum everything up, Syclant got a Hidden Ability in Ice Body and many new flavor moves to make it look like a Generation 7 Pokemon.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this update!
 
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