CAP Updates: Voodoom Discussion (Complete)

[sparktrain]

Flash Cannon is the only coverage move I could get onboard with at this point, probably because it's the most reasonable addition of the three main moves up for discussion. Something I'd like to point out is that even without any further additions, Voodoom will have an actual niche with the addition of Nasty Plot. NP + 3 Attacks and NastyPass are both valid and viable options in their current state with Voodoom's existing Dark/Fighting/Psychic coverage. In other words, Voodoom is acclimated to baseline competitive play now as opposed to being a worthless pick.

If we're still serious about following our Update Principles (particularly #8 Conservation: All Updates should be as conservative as possible in acclimating the CAPs to the new release's environment), then perhaps we should be considering whether Voodoom actually needs more coverage. And if it does, is it truly for the sake of acclimating it to baseline competitive play? Or turning it into a top mon?

 

[SunshineFuture]

Flash Cannon is the only coverage move I could get onboard with at this point, probably because it's the most reasonable addition of the three main moves up for discussion. Something I'd like to point out is that even without any further additions, Voodoom will have an actual niche with the addition of Nasty Plot. NP + 3 Attacks and NastyPass are both valid and viable options in their current state with Voodoom's existing Dark/Fighting/Psychic coverage. In other words, Voodoom is acclimated to baseline competitive play now as opposed to being a worthless pick.

If we're still serious about following our Update Principles (particularly #8 Conservation: All Updates should be as conservative as possible in acclimating the CAPs to the new release's environment), then perhaps we should be considering whether Voodoom actually needs more coverage. And if it does, is it truly for the sake of acclimating it to baseline competitive play? Or turning it into a top mon?

I think giving it some way to handle weaknesses, even if a moot point, would not be too out there. However, I say we only give it one coverage move out of the three we discuss. As for which one, I say Flash Cannon. While Sludge Wave has more things immune to it, many top threats to Doom like Tapu Fini are neutral to Steel, so it isn't a huge deal. All it would do is let it handle anything weak to Steel barring Clefable. Not to mention it can only pick one coverage move and that it needs to set up first, so any Fairy type that is already in before it sets up blows Doom away. The only risk is SubNasty sets, but Pixilate Hyper Voice doesn't care, so Sylveon, Mega Altaria and Mega Gardevoir (when they are released) destroy SubNP sets.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 139-165 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 472-564 (146.5 - 175.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 472-564 (146.5 - 175.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 312-369 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 1248-1468 (387.5 - 455.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Wenderz]

I'd choose Flash Cannon too since it allows to keep Tapu Fini as a check to Voodoom and Celesteela can still be OHKOed by +2 Z-Aura Sphere. On a NP +3 set, Psychic will still be an option over Flash Cannon as it gets rid of Mollux and epecially Tomohawk. Since Voodom's project was to be the perfect Partner of another Mon, I thought about this core:

Voodoom @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Dark Pulse

Scolipede @ Waterium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Poison Jab
- Aqua Tail

Voodoom can break through Wall like Toxapex, Mollux, Tomohawk (even though you'll need to hit him several times with Psychic), Ferrothorn and Skarmory, while Scolipede can annhilate Tapu Fini and outspeed some fast Sweepers like Syclant, Pheromosa, Tapu Koko and Stratagem that would RK Voodoom. Scolipede is also a good Partner since it can pass Speed to Voodoom, who may not be "The Perfect Mate" of SColipede since they share a Fly weakness (fortunately for them Talonflame isn't used often anymore), but on paper it looks like a very good Offensive Core, which was the goal of the initial project if I remember correctly.

Also, I support Power Trip and a Physical Poison coverage like Poison Jab or Gunk Shot cause a Bulk Up Set could be usable, even though certainly far less effective than a NP Set, but BP Scolipede is still a very good teamate in this case.

 

[reachzero]

HealNDeal and I have mentioned calcs in this thread (posts #34 and 39) that strongly suggest that Voodoom does not really need any additional coverage to be very good--its existing coverage hits virtually every Pokemon it would want to hit hard, barring Unaware Clefable. Considering the history of CAP that suggests that we feel the need to "over-cover" the metagame in ways we end up regretting later (see: Aurumoth, Stratagem, and even Earth Power Tomohawk), I think it would be wise to err on the side of caution and call it a day with Nasty Plot.

 

[Drapionswing]

I pretty much agree with sparktrain. I don't think voodoom really needs these coverage options, nasty plot opens the door to things like Psychinium Z which does plenty of damage at +2 and is definitely a formidable pokemon. Nasty Plot was the only thing Voodoom needed and not necessarily a way to break fairies, but a way to increase it's pathetic damage output. I hope that people don't push too hard for a new move because there's no reason to actually give it to voodoom.

 

[Deck Knight]

While coverage for Fairies may or may not be necessary, I do believe Thunderbolt should be added because it directly impacts Voodoom's matchup with Tapu Fini, a Pokemon Voodoom really needs to beat. Fini is the premier defensive Fairy in the tier outside Clefable, and being countered by both is detrimental. To use Thunderbolt Voodoom would have to forgo Psychic or a STAB, so it is quite balanced. Thunderbolt also serves fairly well against Tomohawk, as although it *can* stall out Thunderbolt with Haze, Roost, and smart play, it needs to make every prediction accurately and can't do so if it is weakened. Thunderbolt also gives Voodoom an option against Tornadus-Therian to discourage it from switching it, neatly KOing LO Torn-T after Stealth Rock (the AV Set still counters Voodoom).

Basically, Thunderbolt does not "over-cover" the metagame while it does improve matchups and counterplay that would otherwise stifle Voodoom significantly.

 

[Drapionswing]

+2 252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 235-277 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This does plenty of damage and while it doesn't offer an OHKO, Tapu Fini is an easy pokemon to overload due to the amount of things you want it to check and it's lack of recovery. I'm still sticking with No Coverage.

 

[Deck Knight]

+2 252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 235-277 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This does plenty of damage and while it doesn't offer an OHKO, Tapu Fini is an easy pokemon to overload due to the amount of things you want it to check and it's lack of recovery. I'm still sticking with No Coverage.

So basically the plan is to have a sweeper that relies on a Z-move to never KO anything (except Tomohawk), losing any relevant 1v1 exchanges to common defensive Pokemon.

Voodoom does not have the ability to both Nasty Plot and Psychic anticipated switches in the same action. In order to avoid the same problem that plagued Voodoom before Nasty Plot (being hard-walled by Fairies), it needs to be able to address at least a few of them. HP Poison sort of deals with Bulu, Tapu Koko has weak enough SpD where Psychic is acceptable, Dark Pulse hits Lele for neutral. But Fini totally walls Voodoom without decent coverage, and Sludge Bomb being considered too strong the task falls to Thunderbolt which is a stronger version of coverage Voodoom already has (Shock Wave) or Energy Ball which is a bit out of left field.

If you are using Boosted Z-Moves that do not even score reliable KOs with both Rocks and Spikes on the field, you are establishing the insufficiency of Psychic as Voodoom's sole coverage option, not the sufficiency of it.

 

[Drapionswing]

So basically the plan is to have a sweeper that relies on a Z-move to never KO anything (except Tomohawk), losing any relevant 1v1 exchanges to common defensive Pokemon.

That's the concept of a check lol beating a pokemon 1v1.

But Fini totally walls Voodoom

+2 252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 235-277 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not really the best wall is it?

Voodoom not being able to 1 shot fini is fine because once again fini lacks recovery, and getting chip on fini isn't the hardest task. Also how is psychic insufficient?
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 368-434 (121 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Clefable: 301-355 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Arghonaut: 328-388 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kerfluffle: 364-430 (117.7 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (predicted switchin)
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mollux: 456-538 (115.7 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thunderbolt adds 2 better matchups
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 468-552 (117.5 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 470-554 (137 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While decreasing your matchup versus:
Kerfluffle
Mollux
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Koko

 

[Deck Knight]

Yes, Drapionswing, being able to tank a +2 Z-Move even after assuming multiple hazards (which also means forgoing Life Orb, which means the entire rest of the set is weaker and fails to get many OHKOs and 2HKOs) is the definition of a good wall. Your being snarky about it surprises me.

Tapu Fini exhausts a Z-slot and ensures Voodoom is rendered ineffective. Tapu Fini is not a "check" under these circumstances it is a full blown counter, and something Voodoom cannot afford to be countered by to remain viable.

The whole purpose of offensive Z-Moves on a Sweeper is to break one specific check at the cost of being weaker generally. Dark / Fighting is no longer perfect neutral coverage, it is now easily wallable coverage, akin to saying "Abamasnow's Ice and Grass has great neutral coverage except for Steel" in previous gens. Steels were the major meta threats then, fairies are now. Thunderbolt does not allow Voodoom to overcome Fairies, it allows it to overcome one specific defensive one while actually worsening its matchup against others (Bulu, Koko)

Also Celesteela gets nuked by +2 LO Focus Blast and is too slow to address Voodoom with Air Slash anyway. It's a meaningless calculation.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Yes, Drapionswing, being able to tank a +2 Z-Move even after assuming multiple hazards (which also means forgoing Life Orb, which means the entire rest of the set is weaker and fails to get many OHKOs and 2HKOs) is the definition of a good wall. Your being snarky about it surprises me.

Tapu Fini exhausts a Z-slot and ensures Voodoom is rendered ineffective. Tapu Fini is not a "check" under these circumstances it is a full blown counter, and something Voodoom cannot afford to be countered by to remain viable.

The whole purpose of offensive Z-Moves on a Sweeper is to break one specific check at the cost of being weaker generally. Dark / Fighting is no longer perfect neutral coverage, it is now easily wallable coverage, akin to saying "Abamasnow's Ice and Grass has great neutral coverage except for Steel" in previous gens. Steels were the major meta threats then, fairies are now. Thunderbolt does not allow Voodoom to overcome Fairies, it allows it to overcome one specific defensive one while actually worsening its matchup against others (Bulu, Koko)

Also Celesteela gets nuked by +2 LO Focus Blast and is too slow to address Voodoom with Air Slash anyway. It's a meaningless calculation.

To add to your point, the only real Pokemon that share Doom's typing, Scrafty and Pangoro both have Poison coverage. In fact, Pangoro and his base 124 attack has access to both Swords Dance and Gunk Shot, the strongest physical poison move in the game. If that is possible, why can't we at least give Doom Sludge Bomb?

 

[Kyubics]

On my phone right now so I can't say much (and I could add calcs later if you want), but I really wanted to throw my support behind what Deck Knight is saying.

While decreasing your matchup versus:
Kerfluffle
Mollux
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Koko

I don't think that this list is completely accurate when describing what would a change if Voodoom ran Thunderbolt. Allowing it to use a Life Orb without sacrificing its ability to hit common threats is great and it actually allows Voodoom to beat Mollux 1v1 anyway thanks to the power boost. Also, I'd argue that being able to handle a Pokémon as common as Tapu Fini is worth losing to less used mons like Clefable and Tapu Bulu - this trade also means that Thunderbolt in no way makes Voodoom excessively hard to handle. Tapu Koko on the other hand is a weird one - Voodoom beats non-Dazzling Gleam sets regardless thanks to Lightning Rod and always loses to sets carrying the move due to how it outspeed Voodoom. So, unless I'm missing something, I don't think the Koko match up changes at all depending on whether Voodoom runs Psychic or Thunderbolt. I do concede that Kerfluffle is better handled by Psychic, that said it would require correct prediction with your Z-move to beat it with Voodoom, leaving you unable to handle other threats when it wants to sweep. Otherwise, I don't think that having a relatively less used mon that outspeeds Voodoom and can hit it 4x effectively is really the wost to have as a counter.
I know this post is a bit messed up but the main idea is that Thunderbolt allows Voodoom to handle an incredibly important mon in Tapu Fini while maintaining the ability to use a Life Orb and boost the damage of its STAB moves. Psychium-Z is in no way made obsolete as it certainly has its benefits (such as beating Haze Tomo without relying on Focus Miss) and the choice of coverage moves adds at least some diversity to Voodooms sets - something which, at the moment, it severely lacks.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Adding onto what Kyubics said, there is still a lot of stuff that Thunderbolt hits quite strongly, if not of the same calibur as Psychic.

+2 252 SpA Voodoom Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 368-434 (121 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (same as Psychic)
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Clefable: 301-355 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (same as Psychic)
252 SpA Voodoom Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arghonaut: 328-388 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (the same as Psychic)
(I would calc Tomohawk, but it would be repetitive at this point)

This is why we have options in our coverage moves, as it allows us to prepare our teams for different threats. If we want to run Psychic, we get something with Electric moves to beat Tapu Fini, Celesteela, and other such examples. Vice versa for choosing T-Bolt. What makes including both Psychic and Thunderbolt not broken is that they both hit relatively the same Pokemon, but have different threats that each move can/cannot hit. And since we are only allowed to have three move slots for outright attacking, especially since two of them are designated for STAB moves, we are only allowed to choose one of them. And, in a way, this expands Voodoom's relatively shallow special movepool, making it a little bit harder to discern which coverage move it is running. But this is by no means broken.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

For those who are bashing on Shattered Psych (for the sake of promoting Tbolt as a result), Z Psychic has merged into the discussion because it is good and to try and say it's a poor coverage option is not going to win over many. The simple fact is that it DOES hit defensive Pokemon beyond just Tomohawk. There's Mollux. There's Venusaur (I would say Amoongus too but it seems Tangrowth has eclipsed it). There's Buzzwole and Plasmanta, and even Toxapoex (though yes Thunderbolt does this too).

To say that Psychic is bad coverage is a complete and total lie and any comment that says or insinuates that it is bad or "can't hit anything worthwhile beyond Tomohawk" is a plain and easy farce.

Now, the issue seems to be stemming from Tapu Fini itself, as that mon is the one involved in all of the most heated exchanges. Personally, I don't think leaving Tapu Fini as a check is a bad thing. I am definitely more worried about beating up BOTH Clefable and Tapu Fini than just one of them, but I'd also be perfectly content if both are able to stop Voodoom. But the main reasoning behind this is that if we can beat up both then we really lose guaranteed stops in the defensive department, which I don't think is at a super healthy powerlevel. I certainly don't think it would make Voodoom "zomg the next broken mon" but I think it goes far to the left of our principle of Conservation to remove almost all defensive stops.

Quite frankly, I want to ask the tbolters (or even the sludge bombers which are rarer) WHY we should be able to be such a huge stop to Tapu Fini? I wouldn't even call Tapu Fini one of the most defining defensive Pokemon in the metagame. Why is it crucial for us to put a stop to it? Yes yes we can all calc and see damage outputs, but that's the result without the why.

 

[Deck Knight]

The calc we've been discussing is +2 Shattered Psyche, which tops out at 80% damage, which means unboosted it tops at 40%, which means Psychic is hitting for about 25% since it's slightly over half as strong.

When I say Fini walls Voodoom, I'm not exaggerating. And the issue is that Fini in question is, Calm Nature notwithstanding, primarily EVd in Physical Defense. These are not calcs against dedicated special walls, in other words. This is the kind of damage output Voodoom does without a Life Orb, and it is not impressive. Voodoom needs 2 if 3 elements to effectively work as a sweeper with a net benefit (i.e. KO at least 2 mons to losing Voodoom itself):
1. Life Orb
2. Nasty Plot or Lightning Rod boost
3. Super-Effective Coverage / Z-Move

Psychic only adds Poison and Fighting to the list affected beyond its STABs. Voodoom is already relying a lot on inaccurate Focus Blast to score neutral KOs.

Thunderbolt adds Water and Flying to this list, two much more important defensive typings, one of which happens to be Tapu Fini, but Fini is hardly the only such Pokemon. Sylveon is even bulkier and can use Wish, Togekiss has fallen from grace a but it's still a suitable counter to Psychic-specific coverage. Faster Flying types present as issue as well, though few are faster and bulky enough.

Bottom line is, I'm not the one "shitting on Shattered Psyche," a meta where 105 Base SpA unSTAB Z-Moves do not impress that much is. It's not really about me, it's about what makes Voodoom worthy if your Z-Move slot.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Thunderbolt adds Water and Flying to this list, two much more important defensive typings, one of which happens to be Tapu Fini, but Fini is hardly the only such Pokemon.

What other specific mons are there other than Fini and Manaphy and Celesteela? The thing though is SE Tbolt hits almost as hard as neutral Focus Blast, which somewhat negates the priority of Manaphy and Celesteela and leaves Fini. Kril and Rotom-W, two of the most common water types, aren't weak to Electric. Many of the Flying-types in the meta aren't particularly more effected by Tbolt (Torn-T is faster anyway, Mantine isn't really top tier, and Pelipper is KOed by a +2 Shattered Psych at full (even a +1) or by +2 Dark Pulse after rocks (and rarely even without rocks or LO).

The list that Psychic hits is already more applicable. I'm not saying that Thunderbolt is useless. I asked why there was a need to deal with Tapu Fini. Just because we can't deal with a defensive mon that resists both of our stabs doesn't make Voodoom (or Psychic) trash. And while yes there's been talk about Shattered Psyche because it can hit a few relevant things, Life Orb was never off the table anyway and does have advantages in certain situations.

 

[Kyubics]

Your whole post contains completely contradictory logic, for example you mention how running Thunderbolt would worsen Voodoom's matchup against Pokémon like Mega Venusaur, Buzzwhole and Plasmanta and then say it would 'remove almost all defensive stops'.
In answer to your question about Tapu Fini, I think that having a poor matchup against one of the most common mons on balance teams would be really detrimental to a Pokémon focused on beating that archetype. Voodoom already has a somewhat poor matchup against offense due to how it doesn't boost its speed, so I don't think that limiting its effectiveness against balance is the way to go.
That said, if neither side is saying that one coverage move is broken, and neither side is saying one is utterly useless, what is this the problem with including them both? It seems to me like we're having a discussion to decide which coverage move is better on the set, not whether it should be included or not. As LucarioOfLegends said, having both options allows people to prepare for what they want - generally poorer coverage that can beat Tapu Fini or slightly better coverage that can't. There are very few sweepers that don't have options as to what they decide to be able to hit.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

The issue isn't that you can best the defensive metagame with only one or the other. It's that as soon as it has access to both, then Tapu Fini can't [safely] come in until it's been confirmed Voodoom doesn't have T bolt. There is nothing contrary about saying additional coverage options decreases the number of reliable defensive checks.

I don't think being able to one shot Tapu Fini is really that crucial to beating balance archetypes. Fini lacks recovery and can be worn down fairly easily as a result. If we're trying to make it so Voodoom has all of the tools to take down every/most members of balance teams all by itself, then I think we're buffing it too much.

We don't need to make Voodoom top tier (once again, I don't think Tbolt turns Voodoom S or anything, but it removes the "guaranteed" of one of its two most prominent checks rn). We've already greatly expanded its capabilities. I don't see why we need to further increase Voodoom's favor just for it's own sake. Want to use Voodoom but you're worried about Tapu Fini balance? Partner Voodoom with something that can beat it. Beating Tapu Fini isn't quite the "make or break" moment to Voodoom's success, in my opinion (and I think something like Tomohawk or Mollux is more of a make or break moment because of their recovery abilities). Arghonaut is already going to step on its toes and its usage will likely decrease anyway, and even if Arghonaut wasn't given Misty Surge I still don't see how a mon with no reliably recovery is a huge obstacle to Voodoom and its team. Most balanced set uppers are supposed to have their stops weakened or defeated before setting up and sweeping everything.

 

[Deck Knight]

"Tapu Fini can be easily worm down so Voodoom does not need coverage for it" would be a great argument to make if Voodoom could reliably switch in and attempt to set up multiple times a match. That is not something Voodoom can do.

Every time I've ever used Fini I've tried to incorporate Wish support on the team (Jirachi is excellent in this role.) The notion all damage done to Fini stays on Fini is erroneous, Fini has the bulk to withstand a hit on the Wish recieving turn.

Rather than covering that ground again, I 'd like to argue Thunderbolt also increases the number of teams Voodoom is viable on by making it a suitable partner for Tapu Koko. Voodoom loves Electric Terrain because of its immunity through Lightning Rod and indeed a "Double Dance" set with Z-Electric Terrain/Nasty Plot/STAB/Thunderbolt could itself be quite effective.
Additionally while Voodoom doesn't resist Earthquake or Gunk Shot, it can tank unSTABbed coverage attacks while Tapu Koko resists Flying and Fighting-type attacks aimed at Voodoom.

In a generation where there is a lot of role compression on teams, Thunderbolt assists Voodoom by allowing it to compress its roles on other teams as an additional breaker, bulky water check, etc. Thunderbolt brings Voodoom into alignment with the competitive environment of Gen 7 for viable offensive Pokemon while not deviating from Voodoom's roots that much. The reason Voodoom did not get Thunderbolt in the first place is we thought it was kind of amusing Voodoom had all these methods of absorbing electricity but couldn't discharge it. That was 3 gens worth of power creep ago, so it's time for Voodoom to "graduate" from Shock Wave to Thunderbolt.

 

[jas61292]

So far, a number of moves have been suggested, most notably Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt, and Flash Cannon. It had been pointed out that Sludge Bomb gives it by far the best general coverage, letting it beat a number of things that it currently falls to, for essentially the low cost of not hitting Tomohawk quite as hard. And, I would have to agree with the people who assess that this is probably too much. We don't need Voodoom to have an answer for everything, so we should not be looking to give it one move that let's it cover everything.

However, I think we need to remember that this is Voodoom we are talking about here. A Pokemon with good, but not great, speed, and very low power for an offensive mon in this metagame. It needs a Nasty Plot boost to be all that threatening, and it can still be easily revenge killed. No offensive move we give it, even Sludge Bomb, would come anywhere close to making Voodoom overpowered.

That being said, our goal is not to simply make it "not overpowered," which is part of why I oppose Sludge Bomb. But I do think with the limitations it still has, it would be good to expand its options a bit. Neither Thunderbolt nor Flash Cannon are all that much better coverage wise than Psychic, but they would give Voodoom options, and make it harder to just outright stop without much counterplay. Forcing opponents to scout a bit is not overpowering when you will always have some gaps in coverage no matter what. And I think that is exactly the kind of boost Voodoom could use.

I am not sure which I prefer, but I do think that overall it would be a good idea to give Voodoom Thunderbolt (or something like Discharge if people prefer) or Flash Cannon, if not both.

 

[snake]

I'm still on mobile but will make a more official post and update to the thread by Saturday.

As of right now, the general consensus is that Sludge Wave and Sludge Bomb are too strong for the scope of this update. Thus, I'd like to disallow discussion for these moves.

Flash Cannon hits very specific threats to Voodoom and competes heavily for a moveslot, especially Fighting-type STAB. Thus, I think that allowing Flash Cannon is ok.

Thunderbolt has its own supporters and dissenters, which I expected. Right now it seems like we will have to poll it, though that can change. Thunderbolt is a lot like Psychic in that it increases Voodoom's neutral coverage a lot. Additionally, we aren't going to see AOA sets with STABs / Psychic / Thunderbolt - it just doesn't hit hard enough. Thunderbolt allows Voodoom to have more than one effective set (NP + Psychium Z), increasing its overall viability. To me, Thunderbolt would be a healthy addition, though a strong one, simply because the opportunity cost of using Voodoom as your Z Crystal slot is pretty high. I won't say it's fully allowed yet though.

I've been thinking more about the Power Trip set too. It's a NEATO cool set, but I just don't think it belongs here. It's honestly distracting to the update - Voodoom should be a really awesome Nasty Plot user, not a "surprise I'm a Power Trip set!" mon. Not totally disallowing it yet, but I'm not very convinced that we should give it to Voodoom.

 

[snake]

I have given this post an update to reflect discussion.

So it seems that Flash Cannon and Thunderbolt have taken this thread by storm (ba dum tiss).

I want to wrap up discussion on these moves soon, but I feel like I skipped over important questions, and I apologize for this.

1. Does Voodoom need extra coverage?

Nasty Plot is a big update, but it has just three offensive moves to use alongside it, Focus Blast, Dark Pulse, and Psychic, and they work pretty well together. Flash Cannon and Thunderbolt allow it to cover more threats, but it bumps up its unpredictability too. This leads to the main question I want answered before we poll these moves.

2. Does Voodoom need this extra unpredictability and versatility?

As for the moves themselves, Flash Cannon makes Voodoom give up coverage to hit a certain few threats that it doesn't seem too terrible to include on Voodoom. If you drop Fighting-type STAB, Voodoom doesn't really hit all that hard, and if you drop Dark Pulse or Psychic, you have this move whose coverage overlaps a lot with Focus Blast.

Thunderbolt, on the other hand, is a lot like Psychic. It hits many of the things that its Fighting-type STAB, Dark Pulse, or Psychic don't really hit already, making it a great move to use for neutral coverage. It also hits Tapu Fini, a Pokemon that, according to the community, seems like it forces Voodoom to run exclusively Psychium Z, making Voodoom more predictable overall. Additionally, if Voodoom is forced to run a Z move to be fully effective, how viable do we want it to be? It means you have to give up on something like Flyinium Z Landorus-T just to use Voodoom.

With this in mind, I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this. Question 2 is becoming more important as we approach the poll. I'd like to get a poll up by Monday or Tuesday, but expect a 24 hour warning before the poll goes up.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Does Voodoom need this extra unpredictability and versatility?

Yes, but not too much of it. The sets right now for Voodoom (Nasty Plot + 3 Attacks + PsychiumZ) are about slightly less, if not as predictable as Shell Smash Minior, and seeing how Minior isn't exactly all that viable despite the seemingly great set it has, this isn't exactly a good thing. However, we need to be careful so that we don't make it too versatile, or we'll end up having something similar to Genesect, where you never know what you'll see aside from maybe one move. That's why I'm mostly in favor of Thunderbolt. It hits a lot of things neutrally, but Lando-T (a sort of check to Doom with Z-Fly) is immune to it, so it isn't like Psychic is useless. T-Bolt allows you to pick what threatens you more- Fighting types, or bulky Water types.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Does Voodoom need extra coverage?
It certainly does. Over the course of two generations, a lot of Pokemon have emerged that can wipe Voodoom of the face of the Earth without as much as a second thought. The introduction of the Fairy type in general in Gen 6 is a massive problem, as his STAB moves are now rendered near useless against them. And the introduction of the Tapus in Gen 7 sent Voodoom even further down the hole of unviability. For Voodoom to be sufficient as an offensive Pokemon in the current metagame, it needs coverage options to be able to beat these new threats. Otherwise, a opponent can switch in a Pokemon such as Tapu Fini and force Voodoom to switch, viably stopping Voodoom as an offensive threat to the team. While we certainly want specific checks and counters to remain mostly intact, such as Unaware Clefable, it is essential that Voodoom gain the ability to beat some of its current checks for it to be successful in the current metagame. Giving Voodoom at least one new coverage move (preferably Thunderbolt) allows Voodoom to fight a new number of these, and also gives it an element of unpredictability.

2.Does Voodoom need this extra unpredictability and versatility?
Think of a prevelent metagame in either OU or CAP. They are likely to have one of two things: massive bulk or use on a stall team (such as Toxapex, Chansey, or Dugtrio), or, more importantly, options. Many, many major threats in these two tiers almost always have multiple sets, numerous coverage moves, and the ability to use an array of items. Does this make them unpredictable? Certainly. Does it expand their abilities and increase their viability as a Pokemon? Absolutely. While I heavily doubt that Voodoom will every reach the level of stuff like Tapu Lele or Pheromosa, having only three usable offensive moves for an offensive Pokemon is extremely dampening of its ability. Without unpredictability, Voodoom could end up like Cawmodore: a pokemon so linear in its strategy that it becomes incredibly predictable and always loses to an unchanging set of Pokemon. Either way, Voodoom needs an element of unpredictability, even if just a slight element, to be able to execute the role that we have given it.

As for the choice of coverage, since I have yet to mention it, I'm personally sticking with the choice of Thunderbolt. I see it as the middle option, as strong Poison Coverage in the form of Sludge Bomb or Sludge Wave is extremely powerful, and it hits far too many things strongly for it not too be considered "broken". On the contrary, Flash Cannon does a somewhat similar function, but far worse. As snake mentions, Flash Cannon causes far too much overlap with existing STAB or coverage moves, essentially making it a niche option. Why I like Thunderbolt is that it functions similar to Psychic, as they both hits similar threats, are blocked by a certain type, and have overall pretty great neutral coverage. But each one hits certain things better than the other.

 

[snake]

Consider this as a 24 hour warning before the poll. The slate will include Flash Cannon and Thunderbolt as of now.