Hmm, you got a point there, plus being able to run fire blast is cool too. I support C+ as well
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CAP Viability Ranking Thread (B Rank Filtering)
- Thread starter Tadasuke
- Start date
- Status
I dislike using rain teams, but I did a few test matches (Here are the ones where I feel I played correctly)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-224065179
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-224067659
I feel that that:
Kabutops goes to B- rank
Kingdra goes to B rank
Politoed goes to B+ rank
Kabutops is a great choice for Rain teams, as it is the hardest hitting physical sweeper available to them. He is really predictable however, and has common checks such as Tomohawk and Rotom-W. Swampert slightly outclasses it, though it does not hit as hard and cannot boost reliably. Both can breeze through Mollux, a problem the rest of rain has troubles with.
Kingdra is really, really powerful in rain and has STAB moves and the stats to use physical and special moves at once. Can use other moves reasonably well, such as Rain Dance to support slightly. Choice Specs and Life Orb are both great. However, pretty frail and easy to wear down.
Politoed needs to move up because Rain can be very dangerous in CAP, probably even more so than in OU, because of new abusers like Cyclohm, Tomohawk, and Krilowatt. Politoed obviously is the centerpiece of most rain, so I feel it deserves a raise. It does face some competition from Tomohawk as a rain setter, because Tomohawk can abuse it and set it up via Prankster, but I feel that they form a good rain setting core.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-224065179
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-224067659
I feel that that:
Kabutops goes to B- rank
Kingdra goes to B rank
Politoed goes to B+ rank
Kabutops is a great choice for Rain teams, as it is the hardest hitting physical sweeper available to them. He is really predictable however, and has common checks such as Tomohawk and Rotom-W. Swampert slightly outclasses it, though it does not hit as hard and cannot boost reliably. Both can breeze through Mollux, a problem the rest of rain has troubles with.
Kingdra is really, really powerful in rain and has STAB moves and the stats to use physical and special moves at once. Can use other moves reasonably well, such as Rain Dance to support slightly. Choice Specs and Life Orb are both great. However, pretty frail and easy to wear down.
Politoed needs to move up because Rain can be very dangerous in CAP, probably even more so than in OU, because of new abusers like Cyclohm, Tomohawk, and Krilowatt. Politoed obviously is the centerpiece of most rain, so I feel it deserves a raise. It does face some competition from Tomohawk as a rain setter, because Tomohawk can abuse it and set it up via Prankster, but I feel that they form a good rain setting core.
If we are gonna put them in there, I feel like we need to discuss tge whole b rank section and focus on that. We have so many pokemon in there now, that we really need to filter it out and drop some out tbh
I completely agree. I was busy with school when we did the pirate pad and I'm busy right now and am on mobile and don't want to write a long post, but the B section needs to be fixed. Not because we rated then poorly, it's just that we can't have such a big B section and I think we need to redefine what makes a poke at B or C viability.
Fidgit B- --> C
Never understood why this thing was brought up, as its kinda bad, other than having a niche of having access 8 turn Trick Room (Tailwind doesn't really count IMO since Necturna has sticky web and Talonflame can also use it, but for 2 less turns), this thing is pretty outclassed by a good amount of stuff in the metagame. Tomohawk and Ferrothorn are better hazard users, Colossoil is a better spinner, and Clefable is a better wish passer, it really fits the rank of C more than B- when you consider their definitions as well
Never understood why this thing was brought up, as its kinda bad, other than having a niche of having access 8 turn Trick Room (Tailwind doesn't really count IMO since Necturna has sticky web and Talonflame can also use it, but for 2 less turns), this thing is pretty outclassed by a good amount of stuff in the metagame. Tomohawk and Ferrothorn are better hazard users, Colossoil is a better spinner, and Clefable is a better wish passer, it really fits the rank of C more than B- when you consider their definitions as well
After playing some with Crobat:
Crobat: Unranked --> C Rank
Crobat has a strong suit in being a great stall/support mon with decent bulk and amazing resistances. Notably, it can go toe to toe with Tomohawk, even beating Substitute variants from time to time (Substitute Baton Pass can be problematic). It has reliable, speedy recovery, and a good offensive presence in Brave Bird. U-turn is also a great move.
However, it's weak to Psychic, Ice, Rock, and Electric, which are common. It can't switch in on Sylveon or Gardevoir in fear of Psychic or Psyshock, and while it can put the hurt on them with Cross Poison, it doesn't hit quite hard enough to break Sylveon reliably without prior damage. Its bulk is great, but not excellent; you have to go with specially or physically defensive and that leaves you weak to one side or the other.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-224140260
This replay shows some of Crobat's bulkiness. Even with minimal special defense investment, for example, it can take a Cyclohm's Discharge surprisingly well.
Crobat: Unranked --> C Rank
Crobat has a strong suit in being a great stall/support mon with decent bulk and amazing resistances. Notably, it can go toe to toe with Tomohawk, even beating Substitute variants from time to time (Substitute Baton Pass can be problematic). It has reliable, speedy recovery, and a good offensive presence in Brave Bird. U-turn is also a great move.
However, it's weak to Psychic, Ice, Rock, and Electric, which are common. It can't switch in on Sylveon or Gardevoir in fear of Psychic or Psyshock, and while it can put the hurt on them with Cross Poison, it doesn't hit quite hard enough to break Sylveon reliably without prior damage. Its bulk is great, but not excellent; you have to go with specially or physically defensive and that leaves you weak to one side or the other.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-224140260
This replay shows some of Crobat's bulkiness. Even with minimal special defense investment, for example, it can take a Cyclohm's Discharge surprisingly well.
Also supporting Dragalge for B (powerful wallbreaker that has very few switchins and can even run Life Orb with t-spikes and function in TR), Kabutops for B-, Kingdra for B, (great swift swim sweepers that can fire off powerful Watefalls/Hydro Pumps and have coverage to hit Ferrothorn/Mollux and Cyclohm, respectively) Politoed for B+, and Crobat for C (with Infiltrator and access to stuff like Taunt and Super Fang it can stallbreak).
So, I was going to make a big post of changes and drops throughout the B rankings in an attempt to deal with the weird balance of mons we have created, but then I realized that the problem isn't with the B rankings, but with the A rankings. To be perfectly clear, we should not be even attempting to deal with the B rank until we have solidified the A rank, and while I do realize that the A rank is the best its been since XY, I do not even think we are close to done with it. For one thing, there is an incredibly small list of mons in the A rank in comparison to other ranks, and thats not even including the whole list of mons Tada included for discussion, which just shows that we are over valuing the A Rank. Realistically, A rankings should be anything you'd consider of the top of your head when making a team, not "how good is this mon in comparison to Tomohawk". We shouldn't be comparing anything to Tomohawk in regards to viability, nor should we be basing the viability rankings off how one mon performs to another.
I also believe that the A Ranks are reflective of a problem the CAP Metagame has had for a long time, a small playerbase and an inactive forum. While official tiers, the relative standard for us to try to emulate, have a large playerbase too pull from, we have only a small handful of people knowledgeable about the metagame to work with. Most importantly, our smaller playbase means that it is harder to find variety in the CAP Metagame, as there are less people willing and able to try out new sets or mons, and I fully believe that the viability rankings should be doing everything possible to not reflect that. I guess I'm just finding these A Rankings to be too close minded, and not at all reflective of the fact that there are more then 27 perfectly viable mons in CAP.
If one was to just glance at the Viability Rankings of any of the other official tiers, one would see that they are absolutely encompassing, showing every mon that is worth using in relation to how good it is on a team. That aspect is something I've felt has been missing from the CAP Viability Thread since its inception, and is a goal that we should be striding for. For example, there is a total of 27 mons A- and up in the CAP Viability ranking, in comparison to the 52 mons A- and up in the OU Viability Thread. Now, I know this isn't OU, and that there a drastic differences between the two, such as the warping of the metagame around Tomohawk, but we also have an additional 19 mons to rank over OU, and more then half of them are major forces within the CAP Metagame. OU is the closest metagame in terms of mons in relation to CAP, and while it may not be the greatest meta, it is a perfect example of what a large and skillful playerbase can do, and this is something we should be looking up to as an example.
I will admit that in the last month or two, we have been making large strides forward in terms of "fixing" the metagame, especially after the debacle that was the February usage stats. We've been experimenting with new mons, such as Mega Latias and Plasmanta, and have seen new users rise up to the challenge of learning the CAP Metagame, which makes me ecstatic. It just proves to me that despite our small userbase, we can continue to grow and develop as a metagame, and break out of this stagnancy that has been slowly creeping up on the CAP Metagame every since the final months of XY. Now if we can just get our Viability Rankings to reflect this, we can show new users just how complex and worthwhile the CAP Metagame is.
So, in short, I believe that we need to rethink our method to viability ranking in order to reflect the variety in the CAP Metagame that may not be readily apparent. One of the main ways we can go about this is to dramatically shift the A rankings up and condense them, which should allow us to room to move up any of the mons from B that would be deserving of a bump (think Azumaril, Scizor, and Mollux). Most importantly, we should stop comparing mons to Tomohawk to the degree that we have been, and bump a large number of mons in A+ to S, for there are surely some A+ mons that can warrant the bump. Hopefully, this would facilitate the condensing of the A Rank to better balance the Viability Rankings as a whole.
I also believe that the A Ranks are reflective of a problem the CAP Metagame has had for a long time, a small playerbase and an inactive forum. While official tiers, the relative standard for us to try to emulate, have a large playerbase too pull from, we have only a small handful of people knowledgeable about the metagame to work with. Most importantly, our smaller playbase means that it is harder to find variety in the CAP Metagame, as there are less people willing and able to try out new sets or mons, and I fully believe that the viability rankings should be doing everything possible to not reflect that. I guess I'm just finding these A Rankings to be too close minded, and not at all reflective of the fact that there are more then 27 perfectly viable mons in CAP.
If one was to just glance at the Viability Rankings of any of the other official tiers, one would see that they are absolutely encompassing, showing every mon that is worth using in relation to how good it is on a team. That aspect is something I've felt has been missing from the CAP Viability Thread since its inception, and is a goal that we should be striding for. For example, there is a total of 27 mons A- and up in the CAP Viability ranking, in comparison to the 52 mons A- and up in the OU Viability Thread. Now, I know this isn't OU, and that there a drastic differences between the two, such as the warping of the metagame around Tomohawk, but we also have an additional 19 mons to rank over OU, and more then half of them are major forces within the CAP Metagame. OU is the closest metagame in terms of mons in relation to CAP, and while it may not be the greatest meta, it is a perfect example of what a large and skillful playerbase can do, and this is something we should be looking up to as an example.
I will admit that in the last month or two, we have been making large strides forward in terms of "fixing" the metagame, especially after the debacle that was the February usage stats. We've been experimenting with new mons, such as Mega Latias and Plasmanta, and have seen new users rise up to the challenge of learning the CAP Metagame, which makes me ecstatic. It just proves to me that despite our small userbase, we can continue to grow and develop as a metagame, and break out of this stagnancy that has been slowly creeping up on the CAP Metagame every since the final months of XY. Now if we can just get our Viability Rankings to reflect this, we can show new users just how complex and worthwhile the CAP Metagame is.
So, in short, I believe that we need to rethink our method to viability ranking in order to reflect the variety in the CAP Metagame that may not be readily apparent. One of the main ways we can go about this is to dramatically shift the A rankings up and condense them, which should allow us to room to move up any of the mons from B that would be deserving of a bump (think Azumaril, Scizor, and Mollux). Most importantly, we should stop comparing mons to Tomohawk to the degree that we have been, and bump a large number of mons in A+ to S, for there are surely some A+ mons that can warrant the bump. Hopefully, this would facilitate the condensing of the A Rank to better balance the Viability Rankings as a whole.
I add a like^ Because I agree completely with everything bre said, and we need to fix this as soon as we can
I'm inclined to agree with cbrevan. Even looking at the S Rank doesn't really seem to reflect the state of the metagame. If you look at any other viability rating system for other metagames, you can get a pretty accurate idea on what Pokemon you should expect more often than not. Even if I knew nothing about OU, I could figure out from the OU viability list that it's probably a wise idea to be on the lookout for Keldeo and Altaria, and I probably shouldn't have a weakness to these two pokemon built into my team. I don't even have to know really anything about the state of PU to tell from the viability list that I probably shouldn't have more than one or two Pokemon weak to Water on my team, simply because the S Tier and A+ Tier are full of Water types (Carracosta, Poliwrath, Barbaracle, and Simipour to be precise).
Our viability list is pretty sparse given how relatively diverse the format is given how few people play it. The only real information a new player could really gleam from our viability list is that Tomohawk is absurd. While this is something that a new player should know before starting, it isn't the only thing he should know before starting.
That being said, I'm going to propose some changes to the banlist that should make the banlist reflect the "Big picture" so to speak.
To S:
Altaria (Mega)
Gardevoir (Mega)
Metagross (Mega)
To A+:
Clefable
Cyclohm
Stratagem
Sylveon
Talonflame
To A:
Azumarill
Ferrothron
Gothitelle
Keldeo
Latias (Mega)
Mollux
Syclant
To A-:
Heatran
Lopunny (Mega)
Medicham (Mega)
Necturna
Rotom-W
Scizor (Mega)
Volkraken
Of course I'm going to justify all of this later, and I imagine much of this is up for debate as to which actually go where, but I basically wanted to get a feel whether changes of this magnitude would be welcome, or whether we would want to avoid this much alteration to A Rank and S Rank.
Our viability list is pretty sparse given how relatively diverse the format is given how few people play it. The only real information a new player could really gleam from our viability list is that Tomohawk is absurd. While this is something that a new player should know before starting, it isn't the only thing he should know before starting.
That being said, I'm going to propose some changes to the banlist that should make the banlist reflect the "Big picture" so to speak.
To S:
To A+:
To A:
To A-:
Of course I'm going to justify all of this later, and I imagine much of this is up for debate as to which actually go where, but I basically wanted to get a feel whether changes of this magnitude would be welcome, or whether we would want to avoid this much alteration to A Rank and S Rank.
I really don't think Necturna is A material this gen. Offensively, it isn't great as it either has to run a boosting move or opt for coverage as well as it being weak to common types in the CAP metagame. It's only real niche I'd say is that it gets access to Sticky Web, but I don't think that makes it A rank at all.
Clefable and Sylveon are not A+ material at all. Clefable is usually Unaware to check Cawmordore or is a CM set, which gets checked by by common pokemon like mollux, plasmanta as well as mega metagross.
When it comes to Sylveon, most of the time it is a cleric, although a Specs set does hit hard. The cleric set is very passive, whilst the specs set gets worn down quickly and it easily revenged.
Would post more, but on phone atm
Clefable and Sylveon are not A+ material at all. Clefable is usually Unaware to check Cawmordore or is a CM set, which gets checked by by common pokemon like mollux, plasmanta as well as mega metagross.
When it comes to Sylveon, most of the time it is a cleric, although a Specs set does hit hard. The cleric set is very passive, whilst the specs set gets worn down quickly and it easily revenged.
Would post more, but on phone atm
Nectruna's band set is still a great set this gen. 2kos Pyroak and Tomo(phys defensive variants) with Dragon ascent. Turna has decent coverage to be able to hit a lot of things hard that may try and switch into it, so I think it does deserve A-
Just for a brief post, I agree with Queen that Clefable is not A+. I do think Sylveon is better than Clefable, but even then A+ is a stretch.
I'm on my phone as well so I don't have time to go into details, but I really think we might need an S- rank. When one or two of our S's are more versatile and outclass the others, then it doesn't really give an accurate ranking.
I'm on my phone as well so I don't have time to go into details, but I really think we might need an S- rank. When one or two of our S's are more versatile and outclass the others, then it doesn't really give an accurate ranking.
Pidgeot-Mega to A-/B+.
Pidgeot has the ability to spam hurricane with no repercussions because of its ability, no guard. It acts as a decent defogger and can use heat wave to wreck steels like ferrothorn, which is becoming more common. It also beats tomohawk which is pretty cool. The only relevant pokemon I could think of in 5 seconds that beat this thing are plasmanta, heatran, and cyclohm.
(post will be edited once I have more time to write it out)
Pidgeot has the ability to spam hurricane with no repercussions because of its ability, no guard. It acts as a decent defogger and can use heat wave to wreck steels like ferrothorn, which is becoming more common. It also beats tomohawk which is pretty cool. The only relevant pokemon I could think of in 5 seconds that beat this thing are plasmanta, heatran, and cyclohm.
(post will be edited once I have more time to write it out)
it's not that good lol
Some people keep asking me to try to maintain forum presence, so here I am trying my best.
C, hmm. I experimented with it a while back and you're super overhyping it Rio. Heat wave doesn't even kill ferro unless u run noob evs on it. Compared to most b ranked moons, pidgeot doesn't make the cut. Keep it at C, or if anything move to B-. Heh decent defogger, if u mean using defog then getting destroyed due to its frailness, then maybe.
C, hmm. I experimented with it a while back and you're super overhyping it Rio. Heat wave doesn't even kill ferro unless u run noob evs on it. Compared to most b ranked moons, pidgeot doesn't make the cut. Keep it at C, or if anything move to B-. Heh decent defogger, if u mean using defog then getting destroyed due to its frailness, then maybe.
Some recent posts in the general metagame discussion have made me want to make a comment here specifically about the lower ranked CAP mons. Frankly, I think it is absurd that Malaconda should be D. It is a very solid mon when put into a bulky attacker role, and is arguably one of the best pursuit trappers in the metagame as it can come in without fear on just about every common mon you would look to pursuit trap. The threat of Glare and U-Turn also make it a lot harder to switch in on than it might appear. Its certainly not one of the metagames top mons, but it has a very notable niche, which is the definition of C rank.
Voodoom on the other hand, should probably be dropped to D or D-. The fact is, there is just next to nothing it actually does that is not completely outclassed. There is a big difference between having a niche and just being worse at something than other Pokemon. It certainly can do a couple things decently, but honestly, any time you need a Pokemon to fill one of the roles that Voodoom can fill, there is always a mon that can do it that is better. The electric immunity is the only thing that honestly keeps it out of E territory right now, in my opinion, as both offensively and as a support mon, it is severely outclassed in every other way.
Voodoom on the other hand, should probably be dropped to D or D-. The fact is, there is just next to nothing it actually does that is not completely outclassed. There is a big difference between having a niche and just being worse at something than other Pokemon. It certainly can do a couple things decently, but honestly, any time you need a Pokemon to fill one of the roles that Voodoom can fill, there is always a mon that can do it that is better. The electric immunity is the only thing that honestly keeps it out of E territory right now, in my opinion, as both offensively and as a support mon, it is severely outclassed in every other way.
Yeah, I totally agree with HealnDeal and any other person who supports this. It would be great if we could have an S- rank. There are Pokemon that are absolutely amazing at its job, but maybe a few Pokemon are 'better'. That's where the S- rank comes in.
Yeah, fixing the S rank first will fix the A rank, then the B rank, then the C and D rank, and so on....
Instead of 'B rank filtering', 'S and A rank filtering' would be a more apt title.
Reviving this thread for metagame changes
A+ ------> S
This has been already nominated before, but after Landorus-I got banned, Mega Metagross is one of the best, if no the best mons in the current metagame. So much has already been said upon him, so I don't want to repeat myself. Deals with things such as Tomohawk, Mega Gardevoir, Kyreum Black, Auromoth, Mega Diancie etc.. Defenitely deserving.
A+ ------> S
The same can be said for Mega Altaria, as it also deals with alot of current metagame threats, while also having access to a nice movepool, and good typing.
A+ ------> S
I have been using Colossoil a lot recently and let me tell you this thing puts in so much work. With a Choice Band, practically nothing wants to take a STAB Earthquake, Knock Off, or Sucker Punch from this monster barring Tomohawk. Has nice speed, good movepool, nice ability, great STAB's that complement eachother, and is all around great mon.
A+ ------> A
Idk if it is just me, but Mega Gardevoir hasen't been standing out to me too much. With the omnipresent Mega Metagross running around everywhere, it is hard for our extravagant princess to do much on it's own.
A ------> A+
Man I love this mon, Cawmodore is probably one of my favorite CAP pokemon, his Belly Drum set is pretty amazing, and that why I think it deserves this rank. It has a speed tier of it's own, while having nice and powerful STAB's under it's belt.
These are just my thoughts on the top tier mons, and the changes that should be implemented
This has been already nominated before, but after Landorus-I got banned, Mega Metagross is one of the best, if no the best mons in the current metagame. So much has already been said upon him, so I don't want to repeat myself. Deals with things such as Tomohawk, Mega Gardevoir, Kyreum Black, Auromoth, Mega Diancie etc.. Defenitely deserving.
The same can be said for Mega Altaria, as it also deals with alot of current metagame threats, while also having access to a nice movepool, and good typing.
I have been using Colossoil a lot recently and let me tell you this thing puts in so much work. With a Choice Band, practically nothing wants to take a STAB Earthquake, Knock Off, or Sucker Punch from this monster barring Tomohawk. Has nice speed, good movepool, nice ability, great STAB's that complement eachother, and is all around great mon.
Idk if it is just me, but Mega Gardevoir hasen't been standing out to me too much. With the omnipresent Mega Metagross running around everywhere, it is hard for our extravagant princess to do much on it's own.
Man I love this mon, Cawmodore is probably one of my favorite CAP pokemon, his Belly Drum set is pretty amazing, and that why I think it deserves this rank. It has a speed tier of it's own, while having nice and powerful STAB's under it's belt.
These are just my thoughts on the top tier mons, and the changes that should be implemented
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