CAP 18 CAP18 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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Alright... here's my input:

Taking into account the expected attributes of a Fire/Water Pokemon, what Pokemon should CAP 18 be able to switch in against with little effort?

While there are not a whole ton of offensive grass types in OU, It can switch into those (Breloom and Mega Venusaur), as well as the infinitely more common fire types. This guy should be able to take on Megazard y without much trouble as well, taking advantage of the drought boost and having a double resist to fire blast. Ice types are another thing, but the most common ice types are Mamo and KyuB, and they murder CAP 18, so forgot that. Scizor, who can KO both Lati and Luke 1 on 1, cannot ever hope to touch CAP 18 with either STAB, as steel is four times resisted here, and bug is a standard resist. In fact,it should be able to switch into all non earthquake steel types at least once. Everything that Volcarona has just bounces right off this guy actually, so that’s a plus too.
 
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Ununhexium

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is a Contributor Alumnus
You are correct. I think mega venusaur could be a threat to this core especially if latias lack psyshock (niche, but hey you know?) It can pretty much hard wall lucario and stall it with seeds and LO. Also, it is neutral to CAPs fire STAB because of thick fat.

For some reason, I feel like this CAP will be really antimeta

EDIT: I just thought that this CAP may work well in weather as both of its STABs are boosted by rain or sun. Provided the right coverage outside of STAB it could really smash weather teams.
 
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jas61292

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As I think i frequently the case in these discussions, I get the feeling that people are focusing far too much on typing itself and what it does, rather than what we want to do. Simply repeating what the advantages and disadvantages of Fire/Water are serves little purpose, as those are the very things we chose the type for. What we need to do here is go beyond the simple advantages and disadvantages of the type and decide what we want it to do. Running contrary to the typing is not something we should really be looking at, unless absolutely necessary (see: Mollux), but there are plenty of things that might not be obvious from the type itself that need to be addressed. So, let me continue on by addressing the questions of our TL.

Taking into account the expected attributes of a Fire/Water Pokemon, what Pokemon should CAP 18 be able to switch in against with little effort?


Our typing gives us the ability to switch into Fire, Ice and Steel most easily, but things carry coverage, so saying that alone helps very little. As we have discussed earlier, probably the most important things to beat are Fairies, Aegislash and Ground types. However, this question does not simply ask what we want to beat. It asks which we should be able to switch into with little effort. To this question, I think the best answer would be Fairies. The most threatening fairies offensively are Azumarril and Mawile, and these are going to be hitting on the physical side. While our Ground weakness will certainly make it hard for us to ever switch into Ground types, bar on a prediction, handling Azumarril and Mawile will likely require traits than make handling the common Physical Ground types easier. Now, as far as Aegislash is concerned, as nice as it would be, I don't think that being able to switch in on it with little effort should be a primary goal of ours. It can hit physically or specially, and either way will be hitting with attacks that we don't resist. Th say that CAP 18 needs to be able to switch in on it with little effort would be overly restraining on the rest of the project. While we should certainly beat it one on one, trying to go for a perfect Aegislash counter without even resisting it seems like a folly to me.

Beyond the things that have been talked about before, other OU pokemon that I feel we should be looking to be able to switch in on fairly well include Scizor, Volcarona, Foretress and Klefki. While all of these could obviously carry things that are not completely friendly to our type, none I think would be overly worry some, and we could easily tailor elements to allow those switch ins to be fairly easy. Beyond those things, there are definitely plenty of other OU pokemon we should aim to threaten, however, I don't think we really need to expand the list of Pokemon we can switch in on "with little effort." To much of that can only be a bad thing.

What Pokemon should be able to switch into CAP 18 with little effort, and which Pokemon should Latias and Lucario be expected to provide support against?

Well, honestly, the first thing that comes to mind for me is that we should really be countered by Latias. It would be absolutely an awful idea for our CAP to be beating either of our chosen Pokemon, and when our typing lines up as it does against Latias, I think the smartest move would be to stay away from anything that could help it get around her. Being hard countered is not necessary, but we should not go out of our way to beat a Pokemon we are working to help. Beyond Latias, I think special attacking dragons in general are a good thing for us to have be free switch ins, especially bulky ones, like Goodra. I specify special, because when it comes to dragons, special ones all lack the scary boosting of physical ones that would let them clean sweep our core. At the same time, Latias can either speed tie or better against all but Noivern, and take them out. The other nice thing is that, being a fire/water type, we will almost without a doubt have some way of threatening burn, making it much easier to threaten only physical dragons and not special ones. Water types on the other hand, despite resisting both our STABs, are something I don't think we really want to be getting free switch ins in general. Keldeo, for instance, can be quite threatening to the core, especially should it be running a scarf or Icy Wind to let it get past Latias. Some waters are probably fine to be have switching in though. Things like Tentacruel are not too big of an issue for anyone in our core, so letting them get the best of CAP 18 is not a problem at all.

In addition to those things, I think that (loathe as I am to say it) Chansey or Blissey or other bulky walls that are weak to fighting should be able to switch in. Now, that is not to say we should not have any disruptive moves to use on them, or lack any utility moves making a switch in by them make us completely useless, however I don't think we should be able to beat them one on one, as the fact that Pokemon like these can be generically good against our typing while dying miserably against Lucario is a net benefit, in my opinion.

How significant should prediction be when using this core? If CAP 18 and Latias/Lucario cover a large portion of the meta, how important should predicting a switch be when using this core?

Honestly, I don't think we should be relying on this too much. Should be be important? Absolutely. But no more than it should be with any other good core out there. To say that a given core has a high required prediction level is just another way of say that it is not really a synergistic core to begin with. Most major threats should either be easily taken on by a member of the core, or simply written off as a core weakness, to be covered by some other teammate. To try and cover such weaknesses by prediction alone will lead to far more failures than successes.
 
I'm going to use the top 30 OU Pokemon in 1760+ requirements and a few others in this post.

Taking into account the expected attributes of a Fire/Water Pokemon, what Pokemon should CAP 18 be able to switch in against with little effort?

Based on typing alone, CAP 18 can switch into:
-Scizor (Both STABS are resisted; gets roasted by Fire STAB)
-Greninja (No attack hits super effectively; too frail to survive Life Orb recoil and damage)
-Mega Charizard Y (CAP 18 4x resists Fire and can capitalize on Drought boosts)
-Volcarona (Bug/Fire is resisted; scared out by Water STAB)
-Talonflame (CAP 18 threatens to KO with Water and isn't weak to Flying)
-Skarmory (Threatens it out with Fire STAB and doesn't care about Brave Bird)
-Mawile (Resists both of M-Mawile's STABs and threatens with Fire STAB)
-Ferrothorn (Doesn't fear Power Whip/Gyro Ball, threatens with Fire STAB)
-Clefable (Resists Clefable's Fairy STAB and can probably outlast it depending on stats)
-Heatran (Doesn't care about any of Heatran's moves other than Earth Power; threatens with Water STAB)
What Pokemon should be able to switch into CAP 18 with little effort, and which Pokemon should Latias and Lucario be expected to provide support against?

Support Needed/More Information Needed
-Aegislash (Hits hard even with neutral Shadow Ball; CAP 18 will need some bulk to be able to switch in and enough power to KO Aegislash with Fire STAB)
-Rotom-W (Resists CAP 18's STABs and can hit super effectively with Volt Switch, but not much else)
-Tyranitar (Doesn't enjoy taking Water STAB, but can threaten CAP 18 with Stone Edge/Earthquake)
-Lucario (Lucario can hit hard when boosted, but CAP 18 can KO it with Fire STAB)
-Landorus-I/Landorus-T (Can threaten with Sheer Force boosted Ground STAB and Rock coverage, but is weak to CAP 18's Water STAB)
-Gliscor (Can hit with super-effective STAB Earthquake, but won't enjoy taking Water STAB in return)
-Pinsir (Hits hard with Flying STAB Return, but probably can't take Fire STAB in return)
-Excadrill (Hits like a truck with STAB Earthquake, but is weak to both of CAP 18's STABs)
-Bisharp (Weak to Fire STAB, but CAP 18 doesn't resist its Dark STAB and won't enjoy taking Sucker Punch and Knock Off)
-Mandibuzz (CAP 18 won't like Knock Off or Foul Play, but Mandibuzz can't do much else)
-Venusaur (Can't do much unless it carries Earthquake, but CAP 18 can't hit super effectively with STAB alone)
-Deoxy-S (Would probably have to sponge two to three hits from the Life Orb variant and has no super effective STAB to respond)
-Azumarill (Resists both of CAP 18's STABs, but can't do much in return)

Opposing Switch-Ins
-Latios and Latias (Resists CAP 18's STABs and can threaten it out with Thunderbolt)
-Dragonite (Can sponge CAP 18's STABs with Multiscale and set up/immediately threaten with Earthquake)
-Thundurus-I (Not weak to either of CAP 18's STABS and can threaten it out with Thunderbolt/Volt Switch)
-Mega Charizard X (Can switch in on Fire STAB and doesn't mind Water STAB if already Mega evolved; can threaten with Earthquake and/or set up)
-Garchomp (Resists Fire STAB and neutral to Water STAB; threatens with STAB Earthquake)

The major threats in my eyes seem to be a lot of hard-hitting Dragon-types who aren't weak to either STAB and can threaten with super-effective Ground or Rock moves. Aegislash and bulky Grounds will also be an issue without appropriate coverage moves or stats to account for them.

Conclusions
Being a completely safe switch in to Aegislash will probably be nigh impossible thanks to its sheer power. I agree with kas' reasoning that bulky Dragons (especially Latias) should get safe switch-ins against CAP 18 and that finding a way to more easily switch in on Azumarill and Mega-Mawile can solve issues against bulky Ground-types.

As for Mamoswine, I think it's not a big deal if it checks CAP 18; Lucario can OHKO it, Latias can hit hard with LO Surf or outright KO with Grass Knot if it's really is such a huge threat, and CAP 18's STAB Water moves would all but ensure a OHKO.
 
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Going to be analyzing how well Lucario, Latias, and CAP 18 can handle OU. Semi-threats will be Blue, while serious threats will be Red.


Rotom-Wash - Latias walls
Aegislash - CAP 18 needs to be able to deal with this thing. Hopefully it'll get Bulletproof :)
Heatran - Latias can tank almost any hit, CAP 18 quad-resists Fire, Lucario can threaten it out with STAB CC
Talonflame - Assuming CAP 18 has good physical bulk, Talon shouldn't be too much of a problem
Landorus-Therian - Latias/CAP 18 can do good damage to it, but don't like switching into U-Turn/Earthquake. Lucario can also run Ice Punch to handle it
Conkeldurr - Latias can deal with it, but doesn't like switching into a Knock Off
Garchomp - Scarf could do serious damage to our core, especially since Lucario's poor bulk makes it an unreliable way to deal with Dragon STAB
Charizard Y - Latias/CAP 18 can deal with this
Charizard X - Once again, Dragon STAB can hurt out team badly.
Tyranitar - Lucario receives a Justified boost, CAP 18 has a super effective STAB
Azumarill - One of the only Fairy-types that can hurt CAP 18, Lucario doesn't like taking Waterfalls
Bisharp - Lucario can switch in for a Justified boost, CAP 18 has super effective STAB
Scizor - CAP 18 walls this easily
Latios - Dragon STAB is scary
Thundurus - Priority Twave is annoying, though Latias is a good answer to it
Venusaur - Latias deals with this
Excadrill - Nothing can really switch into a Mold Breaker EQ, though Lucario and Surf Latias can threaten it out. CAP 18 can also use a Water-STAB. Scarf variant hurt, though.
Lucario - Can't really set up on anything, but if it does, it could hurt
Pinsir - Latias outspeeds, but +2 Quick Attack can OHKO after some prior damage
Mandibuzz - CAP 18 shouldn't have too much trouble with this
Greninja - Outspeeds out entire team, though CAP 18 should be able to take a hit.
Skarmory - CAP 18 deal with this
Gliscor - Surf Latias deals with this. CAP 18 has super effective STAB, but is weak to EQ
Ferrothorn - CC Lucario and CAP 18 deal with this
Dragonite - Can't find too many opportunities to set up, but CB Outrage would do a ton to the core
Landorus - Can't really touch Latias
Deoxys-Speed - See Greninja. Latias can also take a LO Ice Beam
Mawile - CAP 18 should be able to handle this
Latias - See Latios.
Gengar - Shadow Ball hurt Latias, can Will-O-Wisp Lucario. Another Pokemon that makes me hope CAP 18 has Bulletproof
Clefable - CAP 18 deals with this.
Keldeo - Latias deals with this, though Specs could hurt somewhat
Kyurem-Black - Lucario has super effective STAB, but outside of that this thing seem scary if it can get up a Sub.
Gyarados - Mega could be scary, though CAP 18 can hopefully live a hit and Will-O-Wisp (Assuming it gets it)
Mamoswine - Lucario has super effective STAB
Chansey - Lucario sets up all over this thing
Breloom - Latias can wall this, but doesn't like Spore
Sylveon - CAP 18 deals with this
Espeon - Latias beats this
Togekiss - CAP 18 beats this
Deoxys-Defense - Latias has Defog to removes hazards, though DeoSharp could be annoying.
Alakazam - Latias can tank a hit and bring it down low enough to where Espeed can kill. Max HP Latias avoids a 2HKO unless Zam is LO.
Terrakion - Dual STABs are scary for almost any team, though Latias outspeeds and KO's after CC drop.
Manaphy - Can't set up very easily, and Latias outspeeds. Lucario also has Espeed for this.
Goodra - Has a ton of bulk to tank Draco Meteors, and has Flamethrower for Lucario
Infernape - Latias can tank both dual STABs, CAP 18 quad resists Fire
Blissey - Lucario sets up all over this thing
Volcarona - CAP 18 can beat this, but with enough Quiver Dances, this thing sweeps.
Zapdos - Latias walls this.

Major threats:

Dragon-types
Ghost-types
Azumaril & Pinsir

Minor Threats:

Faster Pokemon
Ground-types
Set-Up Sweepers (Gyarados, Volcarona, Lucario)
Conkeldurr


Overall, our core struggles with powerful Dragon- and Ghost-type Pokemon.
 
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Ununhexium

i am groot
is a Contributor Alumnus
Its interesting how most are ghost fairy or dragon. Funny though, in irc I was talking about how it should have at least 103 speed to outspeed garchomp. Volcarona is really a threat to this core as if it gets a boost, it can sweep. CAP can deal with it, but Volcarona could set up on the switch (though it can't do much to it in terms if offensive moves). Even a modest volcarona can out speed latias at +1 though so after a boost, you either need a fast scarfer or a really really really (I'm not sure but we might be talking deoxys s really) fast unboosted Mon to kill because anything a +1 Spa Spe and SDef.
 
Excadrill - Nothing can really switch into a Mold Breaker EQ, though Lucario and Surf Latias can threaten it out.
Mamoswine - Lucario has super effective STAB
Nothing being able to switch in on a STAB EQ from Excadrill somehow is okay?

Also, nothing on this core can switch into a good Mamoswine. If it uses EQ, CAP-18 (barring Levitate) and Lucario are grievously injured. Latias is immune, which is great until you remember the whole STAB Ice Shard thing.
 
Nothing being able to switch in on a STAB EQ from Excadrill somehow is okay?

Also, nothing on this core can switch into a good Mamoswine. If it uses EQ, CAP-18 (barring Levitate) and Lucario are grievously injured. Latias is immune, which is great until you remember the whole STAB Ice Shard thing.
However, I'm not to sure about Mamoswine... Sure, nothing wants to switch in to it. However, barring Latias, nothing needs to switch out, either. Lucario has STAB CC, while CAP 18 is most likely going to have a STAB Water-type attack to threaten it out. Also, the opposing Mamoswine's going to have to predict to get any damage off. Does it Ice Shard predicting Latias to Surf? Or does it EQ predicting CAP 18/Lucario? Either way, it really only has a 50/50 chance to get any damage off, and that's only if Latias is out.

Just realized this exact same logic applies to Excadril. Lucario and Latias outspeed it and can OHKO it, meaning the only threatening variant is the Scarf. I'll make Excadrill blue.
 
If you had Luke or CAP out to begin with, I'd imagine you'd double switch to Latios and then to CAP to dodge the EQ and tank the Ice Shard. Either way, the Mamoswine would have to predict just as much as you, assuming CAP can outspeed and OHKO mam.
 
If you had Luke or CAP out to begin with, I'd imagine you'd double switch to Latios and then to CAP to dodge the EQ and tank the Ice Shard. Either way, the Mamoswine would have to predict just as much as you, assuming CAP can outspeed and OHKO mam.
If I had Lucario or CAP 18 out on Mamoswine, I'd try to OHKO it, not switch out.
 
Taking into account the expected attributes of a Fire/Water Pokemon, what Pokemon should CAP 18 be able to switch in against with little effort?

From typing alone, we can switch into most Fairy- and Steel-types. The Fairy that seems to give us the most problems is Azumarril, as it resists our dual STAB and hits us neutrally. Meanwhile, Heatran can be threatening if it carries Earth Power, and Steel-types that carry Ground- or Rock-type coverage is also a problem; most Steel-types get Ground and Rock moves as well, making this an issue. However, we can easily switch into most Fairy-types, as the most common offensive Fairy-types are Azumarril, M-Mawile, and maybe M-Gardevoir. Mawile isn't much of an issue if we build our cap to dance around Sucker Punch, and Garde has to use it's weaker psychic STAB to hit us harder, so that leaves Azumarril as an issue. However, Azumarril can be dealt with by either a coverage move that hits it SE and enough bulk to take at least a Play Rough + Aqua Jet. Latias can also use Thunderbolt to do more than enough damage to it. On the Steel side, I've heard a lot of people say we can come in on Scizor easily. While it is true we do switch into it very easily, since it can't do much to us, U-Turn makes it really tricky to handle. Don't think I should say much more on that, since this is in prediction territory, however, the threat of a U-Turn is something to keep in mind since Scizor can usually U-Turn on Latias. I think this is the best place to talk about Aegislash, since we should be able to at the very least not be forced out. Luckily, our typing means that we don't auto-lose against Aegislash, which is good enough. Aegislash might be enemy number one, but there are 2 problems with focusing on Aegislash. The first one is that we need to specifically design it to counter Aegislash, which is no small task. It will be extremely difficult to make a mon that beats Aegislash AND the other mons that we need this thing to beat. Another problem is that if we make CAP 18 mainly Antislash, it will fit easily in a lot of places outside of the core. A lot of teams would appreciate something that can cold-stop Aegislash. Basically, we should be able to deal with Aegislash (or at the very least not be weak to it), but CAP 18 shouldn't be the ultimate Aegislash counter. Luckily, our typing lets us do just that - we have a SE STAB on it and a neutral one, and we're not weak to any of Aegislash's moves.

What Pokemon should be able to switch into CAP 18 with little effort, and which Pokemon should Latias and Lucario be expected to provide support against?

Water- and Dragon-types seem to be the obvious Pokemon that can come in with ease, as they resists our dual STABs. Rotom-W is an example of a Pokemon that could have ease switching into us. I think this is fine, since Latias can deal with Rotom-W relatively well, although Volt Switch is annoying just like in the Scizor example above. Azumarril is a mon that I'm not the most comfortable with having an easy switch in against us, but I feel that we can migrate this in many ways, so its not too big of an issue. Also, Latias can smack it around with LO Thunderbolt if we really need it. Funnily enough, other Latiases (and by extention, Latios) have an easy time switching into us and threatening us with powerful Draco's. Latias has to risk the speed tie, and Lucario can't OHKO them. However, Luke can go for Extreme Speed once they have been worn down to a KO range. Mega Venusaur also doesn't have that much troubles coming in thanks to Thick Fat and it's great bulk. Latias can support us in this front with its Psychic STABs. Mega Gyarados is also a threat to us, as is Dragonite and Salamence. If they set-up on CAP 18 as it switch out we can end up being in big problems. They can be dealt with by a scarfer if need be, but I'd rather not be total set-up bait for those mons. Obviously Latias is going to be our mon to switch into Ground-types. However, they don't have an easy time switching into CAP 18 due to both of its STABs being threatening to them, especially the Water STAB. Meanwhile, Luke can switch into Rock-type moves, those being one of the few things Lucario can switch into. TTar is a notable mon, as although it no longer quad resists Crunch, it resist TTar's dual STAB and only needs to worry about a stray EQ or Fire Blast.

How significant should prediction be when using this core? If CAP 18 and Latias/Lucario cover a large portion of the meta, how important should predicting a switch be when using this core?

I don't have much to say for this one, other than I completely agree with jas on this point.
 
I'm not going to get into this too much, because I don't think I have much that's positive to contribute to this typing, but as far as making these guys work well together: Latias will be absolutely indispensable for scouting Ground coverage, while Lucario can scout for rock coverage. I'm thinking that for this core to be used effectively, you're going to want to know what the other guy is packing. As Rock has become one of the most common coverage types for Talonflame and Pinsir, this CAP may become useful for luring out certain types of attacks so another member can get their chance to do their damage.

As a sidenote, this CAP test, if not simply this CAP, is going to be very prediction based as anyone party to its creation will be somewhat aware of the intended playstyle of the core. The battles will revolve around trying to catch out one member of the core, so the other two will fall.
 

DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
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All right guys, we've spent a lot of time discussing what a Fire/Water Pokemon is expected to do, but we need to talk about what we want CAP 18 to do. At the moment, we know very little about CAP 18. We know it resists Fire, Ice, Steel, Fairy, and Bug. We know it's weak to Electric, Rock, and Ground. That's it. Our Abilities may or may not change these weaknesses and resistances (or allow us to threaten opponents in a different way), our Stats might increase or decrease our ability to take on common users of these types and others, and we might have coverage moves that allow us to threaten Pokemon our typing wouldn't suggest we threaten.

One common pitfall of the Threats Discussion is that we spend too much time talking about what we can beat/lose to little time talking about what we should beat/lose to. We're still at the point where we could reasonably threaten or be threatened by just about any Pokemon in the game, and that's why we have this discussion when we do. You can almost think of this thread as a much more focused Concept Assessment, a Concept Assessment where we know a little more about the Pokemon (its typing) and have a clearer goal to exit the thread with (a list of Pokemon for the CAP and core to threaten and be threatened by).

A logical question to ask, then, is, "Why did we choose Fire/Water as our typing?". We chose this typing because we wanted something to take advantage of Latias' Defog support, resist Fairy, defeat bulky Ground-type Pokemon 1-on-1, and be able to instantly generate offensive pressure on the opponent's team through its STABs. We also wanted to keep the option of defeating Fighting-types and Aegislash on the table by not being weak to any of their attacks or potential coverage moves. Water-type Pokemon resist both of our STABs, but Latias handles Water-type Pokemon not named Mega Gyarados so well that it's not a weakness for our core. CAP18 should not fare particularly well against Water-types when most Water Pokemon are stopped by Latias.

One Pokemon I would like to point out that should definitely threaten our CAP is Keldeo, particularly Choice Specs Keldeo. One of Latias' main niches in this metagame is that it can handle choiced Keldeo much better than its brother Latios. Our core handles Keldeo, one of the best wallbreakers in OU, better than nearly any other core in Pokemon. Tyranitar is another Pokemon that should be able to switch in reasonably well because we can bait Pursuits for Lucario to set up against or even predict the switch-in and give Lucario a free switch against Tar.

We know what our core has problems with right now: Mega Gyarados, Aegislash, Azumarill, Mega Mawile, Clefable, even Sylveon. Talonflame can be a pain depending on the battle conditions, and Mega Pinsir isn't fun to deal with (although our core does better against it than most other cores in the current metagame). We don't need to threaten every one of these Pokemon, but a core weak to all of those opponents is not one worth using. However, CAP 18's typing is conducive to defeating most of those opponents; the only Fairy that will likely stand a chance against CAP 18 is Azumarill and it's not particularly difficult to provide countermeasures against it.

The Pokemon mentioned in the above few paragraphs are not (yet) set in stone, this thread will stay open for another 36 or 48 hours so we can discuss what we should beat, not just what we can. Posting lists of what a Fire/Water Pokemon does well against with its STABs does not advance this discussion. We're not making a generic Fire/Water Pokemon, we're making a Fire/Water Pokemon that forms a core with Lucario and Latias better than any other Pokemon. Look at the concept and identify what this core needs to beat, then judge to what extent a Fire/Water Pokemon needs to be able to threaten to supplement this core. Then, look at what Pokemon should be able to switch into this CAP. Choosing Pokemon that CAP 18 loses to is just as important as choosing Pokemon that CAP 18 beats. Just because CAP 18 loses to a Pokemon does not mean it weakens this core. For example, Latias' Pursuit weakness is arguably a net positive for Lucario because it can set up on Choiced Pursuits or at the very least provide a great opportunity for Lucario to get into the battle against a Pokemon it will threaten. When looking for Pokemon for us to lose to, look for Pokemon that Luke and Latias provide insurance against or provide easy switch-in opportunities for the other two members of the core.

One final note about Aegislash: we're going to need to be able to significantly threaten Aegislash if we want to make a successful core. Aegislash shuts down Latias and Lucario. Unlike most Pokemon that "do well" against Lucario and Latias, Aegislash completely shuts them down. It takes Draco Meteors like a champ, and Lucario literally cannot do more than 13.2% to Aegislash unless it's running Iron Tail, Crunch, or Earthquake. Aegislash resists Stealth Rock so it's nearly impossible to "wear down". Aegislash cannot be trapped. Not only is Aegislash one of (if not the) best Pokemon in the metagame, it's also by far the Pokemon that our core has the most trouble with. CAP18 does not resist Ghost and will likely having trouble switching into Shadow Ball, which is a problem because the vast majority of the time once Aegislash switches into Lucario or Latias, its first move will be Shadow Ball. Although we can hit Aegislash super-effectively once CAP 18 switches in, switching in is a massive issue. I'm dedicating an entire paragraph of this post to Aegislash because there seems to be some debate about just how significant a problem Aegislash is to our core. Aegislash is unequivocally the most threatening Pokemon to our core, and it would take a very strong argument for Aegislash not to end up in the "Pokemon to threaten" column by the end of this thread.
 
Threats is not a place to discuss what our CAP can threaten—it is a place to discuss what our CAP should threaten.

For this discussion, we have to go back to the concept, and see what we need to threaten to make it succeed. That's the important part. Fortunately, a lot of these questions are already answered by necessity during the typing stage. This is a good place to start. For example, we decided during the typing stage that we need to really pose a threat to aegislash. So this is the stage where we decide, damn the torpedos, we're going to find a way to beat Aegislash.

This is also the stage where we decide what we CANNOT threaten, again based on the concept. For example, some say that breaking Rotom-Wash is detrimental because it would cause the CAP to be used with Mega Pinsir instead. If you agree with that, then we cannot beat Rotom-Wash, or at the very least cannot be allowed to switch in on it.

With that said, I wanted to address some quick points. First—our CAP can switch in on Mega Mawile and it should be able to switch in on other fairies as well, hopefully, since Mega Garde in particular takes massive shits on this entire core and my theorized Bulky Ground support. Second—our cap can break ground types but cannot switch in; latias can switch in but cannot break, lol lucario. The rest of the core has no way to bring in cap18 safely vs grounds, so I think it would be best to outsource this specific goal to a fourth team member unless we're just bored as hell and have nothing better to do than give it Levitate.

Honestly a big threat to this core in general is mobility. it's impossible to switch luke in on anything, and it's hard to switch in cap18 too. Latias can switch in on things but as i said earlier has trouble breaking a lot of pokemon. When you're running an offensive core like that, not ceding momentum is important. Thus, while we should be unable to KO rotom-w, we should not lose momentum against it. We can't just switch to latias, get volt switched on, and go "well, shit"—we have to be one step ahead, and preferably in some way that doesn't involve doubling with cap18 until rotom is dead. In addition, as Jas said, we should bait the blobs, since theyre one of lucario's only setup opportunities.

More to come later maybe once i'm not in school, but let's get this discussion back on track

Edit: fuck detroitninjacat
 

Albacore

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Ah, I see. For some reason, I interpreted "what should the CAP threaten" as "what will the CAP threaten according to its typing". That makes a lot more sense, since we don't know what the CAP can actually threaten/switch into unless we have its movepool/ability/stats.

Anyway, from what I understand, we should already stop trying to counter all Pokemon that threaten Lucario and Latias, and concentrate on those that do well against the core, while losing to another similar offensive core such as, say, Terrakion + Latias or Pinsir + Latias.

In that case, we should focus less on stuff like Greninja (which checks Terrakion much better than Lucario), Landorus-T (which doesn't fear much from most physical sweepers besides those that carry Ice Punch, which is relatively common on Lucario), and Talonflame (which destroys pretty much all Fighting-types as well as Pinsir and gets its priority beaten by Lucario's Extremespeed), and start looking at ways to deal with Pokemon like Aegislash (which most good Physical sweepers have ways to check), Garchomp (which outspeeds Lucario but not Terrakion or Pinsir), and Mega-Pinsir itself (which is checked by Terrakion even at +2, but checks Lucario).
 
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I'm going to give these questions another go.

Taking into account the expected attributes of a Fire/Water Pokemon, what Pokemon should CAP 18 be able to switch in against with little effort?
The short answer to this question is "anything that significantly threatens or shuts down the core is probably something that CAP 18 should be able to switch in against." Aegislash has already been mentioned for good reason, but I believe there are some others that deserve attention.

-Volcarona: While Volcarona is physically frail and thus won't enjoy Latias' Psyshock or Lucario's physical hits, neither Lucario nor Latias can safely switch in against Volcarona. Lucario will get KO'd by Fiery Dance/Fire Blast, and Latias is OHKO'd by Modest Volcarona's Bug Buzz with no boosts with Stealth Rock on the field. Fortunately, CAP 18 is a great check by virtue of its typing alone; it resists Bug-type attacks, laughs at Volcarona's Fire-type attacks, and can even take advantage of the rain used by the rare Hurricane-using Volcarona. This also has the added bonus of not being relevant to Mega Pinsir at all, as no competent player is dumb enough to leave in Volcarona against Mega Pinsir.

-Excadrill: Excadrill is the exception to many of the Ground-types mentioned in this thread thus far in that it can ignore Latias' Levitate thanks to Mold Breaker. Lucario can't switch in at all, while Latias can't hit hard enough without a Life Orb to OHKO Excadrill with Surf before being KO'd itself. Unfortunately, CAP 18's typing makes switching into Excadrill problematic, and I can't really think of a way to address this issue without poll jumping. It's very possible that this issue may have to be delegated to a fourth team member.

-Gardevoir: Mega Gardevoir is a huge threat to the rest of the core; Pixilate Hyper Voice is a clean OHKO on both Lucario and Latias, the former of which can't OHKO with any of its common moves and the latter of which can do very little in response. Resisting Fairy will give CAP 18 some leeway in switching into Hyper Voice, but CAP 18 will need some way to offensively pressure Mega Gardevoir to be an effective check.

-Goodra: Goodra has insane special bulk, meaning that it can comfortably sponge Latias' Draco Meteors and threaten it with Dragon Pulse. It also checks Lucario with Fire Blast, even though it doesn't like taking Close Combat. CAP 18 is weak to Thunderbolt, which many Goodra carry, and it would need a way to effectively pressure Goodra, preferably physically.

What Pokemon should be able to switch into CAP 18 with little effort, and which Pokemon should Latias and Lucario be expected to provide support against?

Rotom-W has already been brought up as something that CAP 18 should require support to defeat without necessarily losing momentum, and I'm inclined to agree with that line of reasoning. I also agree that Chansey/Blissey should be able to switch in without much trouble against CAP 18, as that provides an incentive to bring in Lucario to set up. There are a few others I have in mind as well.

-Azumarill: Both of CAP 18's STABs are resisted by Azumarill, but CAP 18 will not and should not lose a lot of momentum to Azumarill, as it can't do much in return other than use Aqua Jet. Furthermore, Latias can carry Thunderbolt to outspeed and deal with Azumarill easily enough. The key here would be not to give Azumarill the ability to start using Belly Drum or to spam Play Rough.

-Venusaur: Assuming it has already Mega Evolved, Venusaur is neutral to Fire and resists Water. Its access to Giga Drain, Synthesis, and Leech Seed will make it difficult for CAP 18 to defeat one on one. Additionally, Venusaur's weakness to Psychic is exploitable by Latias, who can switch in and comfortably take nearly anything Mega Venusaur attempts to use.
 

Ununhexium

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I'm sort of concerned of where this CAP is going...

It was supposed to take two pokemon that are (sort of) rare in OU and add another pokemon that can cover their weaknesses. The thing is that many of the threats to this core are common OU mons. It shouldnt be able to counter/check them all or this thing will be so unbelievably frickin antimeta. This CAPs goal was to form a core between two lesser used pokemon, not take two pokemon and then make a third that frickin obliterates everything that threatens these two pokemon. Thats what the other 3 pokemon on the team are for. For some reason, I feel that this is going towards that we are trying to make a three pokemon team, not a powerful core. Teams have a core then the rest usually support it (except for me because i suck at teambuilding lol). It seems like we are trying to make a CAP that makes two pokemon into a 3 man team.
 
Well, we are trying to make them into a 3 man team, which leaves a lot of room for the other 3 choices including one Mega and two supporters. The concept is a /perfect/ third, so that's what we're going for.

Taking into account the expected attributes of a Fire/Water Pokemon, what Pokemon should CAP 18 be able to switch in against with little effort?
As we've been discussing throughout the other parts, we have several problematic areas we need to deal with: Bulky Grounds being pretty high up on the list. I have a feeling that if something can reliably check Lando-T, then it will also perform well against all other bulky grounds, maybe with the exception of Excadrill. Doing this will involve:

A: Not switching in on Earthquake, or being immune to Earthquake. (Latias will be useful for this, taunting out something like a U-Turn or a Knock Off, and I'd say hopefully Knock Off.)
B: Outspeeding Lando-T before he can Earthquake.

Now, that particular goal could be accomplished hilariously, but I'll leave that for the Ability stage.

Now, Fairies. We're at a stage where we can say that pretty much all fairies other than Azumarill are going to have trouble with CAP18, and that's fine; Azumarill has reliable counters out there, it's near impossible to deal with Azu and M-Mawile with the same pokemon. Importantly, we can handle the Steel/Fairies.

Now, Talonflame. If we can take two brave birds, we can counter it, but I don't honestly know how necessary that'd be. Importantly, we can stop it switching in with pretty much any member of our core, as it gets wounded by pretty much all of them (And Lucario can out-priority it.) I don't think this is something we're going to need to focus on too much; the threat of a Water attack is enough to stop it switching in on us.

Aegislash is a different story. A lot of people are really worried about the fact that Shadow Ball can 2HKO, but as we're all pretty aware, Aegislash is basically all prediction. You don't need to take a Shadow Ball to the face to switch in, for the simple fact that you can switch in on a King's Shield, or a Swords Dance. I don't like the idea of being a sure-fire Aegislash counter, as that's going to reduce the CAP's versatility in other matters; countering Aegislash if you predict right is a lot more rewarding for smart play, like say, scaring Slash with a looming Crunch, but then switching to CAP18 when he tries to lower your attack before switchout. As such, I'd say our focus shouldn't be on taking 2 Shadow Balls, but on taking one +2 Shadow Sneak and OHKOing sword forme, or one Shadow Ball and 2HKOing shield forme. This lets us deal with what are presumably the most scary Aegislash forms, though this is all thrown out the goddamn window when it comes to the SubToxic Slash, or the rare Head Smash. But I'd say that's fine too; it's incredibly hard to counter all Aegislash sets, and I'd say the only one who does it particularly well is Mandibuzz, though at the same time, even Buzz has troubles with SubToxic. As long as we can deal with the versions that are going to outright sweep the other two members of the core, we should be pretty okay. (That said, if we really wanted to counter SubToxic, Infiltrator is always an option.)
 

Deck Knight

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It seems to me, we should set out to do the following things based on typing:

Defensively, our core has a problem with strong physical attackers.

CAP18 should be able to take the physical attacks of the following threats and force them out or KO them:


Aegislash (*)
Azumarill
Excadrill
Mega Charizard X
Landorus-Therian
Mega Mawile

*Physical, not necessarily special.

Some of the strong Ground types are listed here, including one with Mold Breaker. However, I think the best idea to have in mind is we want to *survive* the attack, not do something crazy like always avoid a 2HKO. On Non-STAB Earthquakes, we should do so. Since we have super-effective STAB, and since these Ground threats don't run priority, the most threatening versions will be Scarfed, and Latias can deal with Scarf Earthquakes, including Excadrill's if it runs bulk and Reflect.

If our CAP intends to lure in the blobs for Lucario to set up on, it should have relatively mediocre special defensive prowess. Rotom-W's Volt Swich shouldn't be able to KO it or get near doing so, but the blobs should be a fairly dead stop to it. This allows the blobs to address it with their offhand special attacks or to simply wall it, and let Lucario clean them up. While this makes things difficult against Mega Gardevoir, we're just going to have to deal with the fact only something like Lucario's Iron Tail can really damage its weak point, since if we make CAP18 too physically powerful it will cease being able to lure Chansey/Blissey. If we can address these high-powered physical threats for the core, a lot of other things will fall into place.
 

Imanalt

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It seems to me, we should set out to do the following things based on typing:

Defensively, our core has a problem with strong physical attackers.
CAP18 should be able to take the physical attacks of the following threats and force them out or KO them:

Aegislash (*)
Azumarill
Excadrill
Mega Charizard X
Landorus-Therian
Mega Mawile

*Physical, not necessarily special.

Some of the strong Ground types are listed here, including one with Mold Breaker. However, I think the best idea to have in mind is we want to *survive* the attack, not do something crazy like always avoid a 2HKO. On Non-STAB Earthquakes, we should do so. Since we have super-effective STAB, and since these Ground threats don't run priority, the most threatening versions will be Scarfed, and Latias can deal with Scarf Earthquakes, including Excadrill's if it runs bulk and Reflect.

If our CAP intends to lure in the blobs for Lucario to set up on, it should have relatively mediocre special defensive prowess. Rotom-W's Volt Swich shouldn't be able to KO it or get near doing so, but the blobs should be a fairly dead stop to it. This allows the blobs to address it with their offhand special attacks or to simply wall it, and let Lucario clean them up. While this makes things difficult against Mega Gardevoir, we're just going to have to deal with the fact only something like Lucario's Iron Tail can really damage its weak point, since if we make CAP18 too physically powerful it will cease being able to lure Chansey/Blissey. If we can address these high-powered physical threats for the core, a lot of other things will fall into place.
Lets be realistic here. It is not physically possible without extreme stats to be able to switch into excadrill when weak to it, especially when weak to sr. Yes you can say sr is not always up, thats what we have a defogger for etc, but when it comes down to it a mon that can only switch in at 100% health, and can only do that once, is inherently the weakest of weak answers to something. This doesn't really help the core significantly, and it puts absurd restrictions on stat stages. The same pretty much goes for lando-t, although in that case we at least could get help from an ability, unlike vs excadrill.

You're also putting pretty hefty offensive expectations on us, expecting to be able to beat azumarill (a mon that resists both of our stabs) and mega zard-x (a relatively bulky mon that routinely runs roost) offensively. For example, to 2hko azumarill through sitrus berry, youre looking at at least roughly 125 special attack, assuming a normal 90 bp super effective coverage move (252+ SpA 125 satk mon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 250-296 (61.8 - 73.2%)).

In the line of DJD's thread about build triangle, we need to pick and choose. We can't do all three of: Outrun ground mons so we can KO them before taking an SE hit, Take one SE hit from said ground mons, and Be able to offensively defeat relatively bulky mons that we don't have SE stab against.

That said, i would suggest we opt for the faster, more offensive option, and assume we can only take strong hits on typing alone. It is a lot easier to find a mon that can switch into bulky grounds to support our core than it is to find one that can reliably check bulky grounds, as well as keeping up our offensive pressure.
 
The one pokemon the core may have trouble with is Garchomp. Switching may not be easy for Garchomp, but 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 440-518 (156.5 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Latias is a little more borderline, as 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 288-338 (95.3 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO, meaning that Garchomp, despite taking some serious damage in the process, can take it out. And this is without stealth rock, previous damage, life orb or even a adamant nature, all of which will result in a KO. I believe CAP will struggle to take it out, and I do not know if will get ice beam which could be a move of which much debate is centred. While it could it could take one hit almost certainly , the fact that Garchomp could be on the opposing team is dangerous to the core.
 

alexwolf

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I think that we should focus on what Pokemon we should beat 1 on 1, rather than what Pokemon we should check. It is already pretty much agreed that we should check Aegislash and Fairy-types, and maybe Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, so those things don't need much discussion. (oh and Azumarill is not a problem, we have WoW)

However, what needs discussion, is how many of the Pokemon that threaten our other two members we should beat 1 on 1, or at least prevent from switching in. Such problematic Pokemon are Mega Charizard X, Garchomp, Excadrill (Scarf and Sand Rush sets), Landorus-T, Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, Mega Tyranitar, and Greninja. All those Pokemon beat 1 on 1 at least one of the other two Pokemon, and can threaten the other, meaning that if they get in against the Pokemon they have an advantage against, we are in a bad position. Things are even worse against set up sweepers such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Tyranitar, Dragonite, and Mega Gyarados, as if they get a free turn they can wreck the whole core and maybe even the team.

Outside of Choice Scarf Mold Breaker Excarill, which we can't do anything about as we can't fix our Ground weakness with abilities (Mold Breaker) and it is too fast to outspeed (Prankster WoW is our only bet, but this is too restricting), i think that the CAP should beat all of those Pokemon one on one, as otherwise all those Pokemon will be able to beat at least 2 out of our 3 members of the core and thus the core will be weak to a lot of common offensive Pokemon. Thanks to WoW, we can at least cripple any physical attacker that's not a Fire-type, so that's good. However, there are Pokemon such as Greninja, Lum Berry Dragonite, and Mega Charizard X that can't be dealt with by a speedy WoW, so we should either have the bulk to take one hit and KO, or be faster and be able to KO or at least bring into KO range of Lucario's ES. Finally, the ability to check some of those Pokemon would be something good. Not all, as this is both impossible and would have the potential to make for an OP CAP or core, but some of them, because as i already mentioned, some of those are very threatening to the rest of our core, especially set up sweepers.
 
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Taking into account the expected attributes of a Fire/Water Pokemon, what Pokemon should CAP 18 be able to switch in against with little effort?

I would say we need to switch in to Aegislash, but for an offensive Fire/Water that isn't happening without bulletproof or an assault vest, and planning around either is a bit restricting. The next best thing is to beat it 1v1, and make sure we can punish the opponent for switching out via set up / generally hard hit / crippling status on their switch in. I want to emphasize this so I am going to say it again: since we have big trouble switching into Aegislash we need to seriously punish the opponent for switching Aegislash out of CAP. Switching into Aegislash would be ideal, but that train has already left the station and we should optimize by going for the next best thing. As far as what we can actually switch into, we have fairies, Heatran, Scizor, and...Skarmory. These are pretty much our only "safe" switches (even then Azumarill still wrecks with water STAB). For sure we'll be able to switch into obvious coverage moves (Like wallbreakers using a fire move to get past a steel type) and some weaker neutral moves. There is really not a lot common in OU that we can safely switch in on, but it should be enough to work. We need to make sure we are at least bulky enough to switch in on resisted moonblasts and play roughs or going Fire/Water will have been for naught.

Now let me talk about Bisharp. He's been mentioned a couple of times in here, but I don't think he's getting the credit he deserves. He's certainly not as threatening as Aegislash who completely beats both Lucario and Latias, but he does cause problems. For one, he absolutely walks all over Latias. He gets a free + 2 from defog and proceeds to OHKO with pretty much any Dark STAB he has access to. This is a big problem. That damnable chess piece is all but a perfect counter to Latias, and can even use her to pull off a sweep. Offensively checking him can be done, but due to his hella powerful sucker punch it's a little difficult- you are pretty much limited to burning him or using faster priority. Now I don't want to poll jump and say CAP absolutely needs those, but let's at least not underestimate Bisharp as a threat.

What Pokemon should be able to switch into CAP 18 with little effort, and which Pokemon should Latias and Lucario be expected to provide support against?
There has been a lot of talk about ground types here and I think we are seriously overestimating them. There are five ground types in the OU tier : Garchomp, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Excadrill, and Mamoswine (Donphan doesn't count because it sucks). Now Latias can (gotta be sure it's EQ Garchomp) switch into all of them bar MB Excadrill and Mamoswine and proceed to out-speed and KO with Draco Meteor or a coverage move. And even MB Excadrill and Mamoswine are fairly slow and easily murdered by Lucario's mighty Close Combat. No, we don't have a perfect counter to the powerful ground types in the tier, but we don't need to. I do not think any real effort needs to go into CAP to counter ground types other than making it fast enough to out-speed non-scarfed Excadrill. Let Latias deal with the ground types.

It is always a little strange when trying to think of things to do poorly against, but this is definitely just as important if not more important than deciding what to do well against. We definitely want to fare badly against things that give Lucario a set up opportunity. Chansey, Blissey, Tyranitar, Alakazam, Heatran, and Breloom are all good choices. Realistically, Heatran and Breloom probably aren't going to be very threatening to us considering our STABs, but if we can encourage them not to stay away it could offer Lucario just that many more set up opportunities.

How significant should prediction be when using this core? If CAP 18 and Latias/Lucario cover a large portion of the meta, how important should predicting a switch be when using this core?
Not relying on prediction is nice, but currently CAP 18, Latias, and Lucario really don't cover a large portion of the meta and so prediction is going to be a pretty big factor. We are pretty much going to have to rely on forcing Aegislash out at this point because taking those 150 base SpAtk STAB shadow balls without a resist is a really tall order. Predicting what is going to come in and having a very effective response is going to be key here. We are also going to have to predict to get Lucario in without sacrificing a team member because Lucario has godawful bulk. Save for a few support pokemon Lucario can switch in on double switches are going to be the prime way to get him out on the field.
 

DetroitLolcat

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All right, that's it for the Threats Discussion. There have been some nice discussions here and on IRC, and it's time to post a formal threatlist for the remainder of this project. As discussed in the Checks and Counters PR, the following threat list is more than just a suggestion, it's the list of Pokemon that we need to be able to defeat and be defeated by in order to fulfill the concept.

Pokemon CAP18 should threaten:

It's important that, first and foremost, we threaten the Pokemon and strategies that our core has no answer to. In general, the degree to which a Pokemon threatens Latias and Lucario should be the degree to which CAP18 threatens that Pokemon.

Ghost-type Pokemon: Aegislash, Gengar
Fairy-type Pokemon: Clefable, Mawile predominantly. Togekiss, Sylveon and Azumarill to somewhat lesser extents.
Some Fire-type Pokemon: Mega Charizard Y, Heatran, Talonflame to a much lesser extent.
Bug-type Pokemon: Scizor, Forretress, Volcarona.
Ground-type Pokemon*: Landorus-Therian, Hippowdon, Excadrill.

When I say "to a lesser extent", I mean that CAP 18 should be a threatening presence to this Pokemon, but it should not be an ultra-reliable counter. CAP18 should perform well against every Pokemon on this list, but that doesn't mean CAP18 needs to unconditionally switch into and force out these Pokemon. It should likely be able to do one or the other, but countering all of these Pokemon is neither feasible nor recommended.

CAP18 should be able to handle, either by switching in or 1v1, the Pokemon that defeat at least one of our core members that the other one cannot switch into. For example, Mega Charizard X is a Pokemon that defeats Lucario 1v1 that Latias can't switch into. If Multiscale is active, so is Dragonite. Gyarados, before it Mega Evolves, fits this bill.

*With a weakness to Ground, this will be a difficult task. We should threaten these Pokemon as well as we can, but we should not expect to counter Ground-types, but rather defeat them 1v1.

Pokemon CAP18 should be threatened by:

We should be okay with CAP 18 losing to Pokemon that the rest of our core handles well. For example, Latias is a tremendous answer to Rotom-W, and CAP18 is weak to Electric and does not have a STAB that can hit Rotom-W even neutrally. Rotom-W isn't particularly bothered by Fire- and Water-type support options, so making Rotom-W anything other than a threat to CAP18 is fitting a square peg into a round hole. Keldeo is a similar example, although Keldeo is so commonly paired with Pursuit Aegislash (the bane of this core) that it's not safe to let Keldeo counter this CAP.

Bulky Waters: Rotom-W, Keldeo to a much smaller extent.
Bulky Dragons: Latias, Latios, Goodra.
Walls with minimal offensive presence: Chansey, Blissey.

Pokemon not on either of our threatlists should be overly specifically threatening or threatened by CAP 18. Just because a Pokemon is not in the second list doesn't mean it is our prerogative to beat it. The same goes with Pokemon not in the first list: we shouldn't be expected to lose to every Pokemon that we don't threaten.

Oh, moderators, please lock this thread when you get the chance :) Everyone else, please don't post in this thread. This is the concluding post.
 
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