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Tournament CAPCL V: Format Discussion

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spoo

spoo

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CAP Leader
Hi gang,

With the tour schedule for next year finally settled, we'll be running CAPCL as our final teamtour in 2026. There will be no custom avatar prize, and the tour will run roughly from mid October to mid December.

Last CAPCL's lineup was 3 SV / 1 SS / 1 SM / 1 ORAS / 1 DPP / 1 ND, with BW notably left off. I know many people are eager to run more CAP OMs and fewer pastgens for CAPCL, so let's nail this down first - what tiers should be represented in this year's edition? Speaking only for myself, but any tier that has not completed at least one (recent-ish) forum tournament prior to the tour's start is going to be a hard sell. I think this is more than fair as a baseline criteria for inclusion, but others are free to disagree. 8 versus 6 slots is another consideration worth discussing here.
 
I'll give some thoughts on various CAP OMs (in no particular order):

UU
I have personal bias towards this one. Very fun tier when I ran the tour a year ago, no balance issues. Main mark against it is UU moves fast some of the data is out of date.

National Dex
This was included last CAPCL, and has an ongoing tour so I think it should be good to go. As far as I know, only borderline Pokemon here is Ramnarok (not having to deal with Tera is big, as is ability to use Z move) but CapitanPabloskii should have more detailed info.

Monotype
I'm not familiar with monotype, but I think it's popular, and saw representation in some team tours (MOMPL?).

LC
I remember this tier was pretty fun when I played it, but ngl I didn't know what I was doing. Other than Necturine being super evil (Last Respects...) and Saharascal probably being overtuned with Heavy Slam, I think this felt fine? Maybe Syclar was a bit strong as well.

Doubles
A tour for this just wrapped up. Chuggalong and Fidgit are being discussed for tiering action. for obvious reasons. I'm not actually sure how things will look if tiering action goes through on these 2.

Draft
I think this could be fun, no forum tour but there's some data from Discord mini-drafts and draft leagues (mainly Natdex, but there is an SV one that should be starting soon-ish). Might be a hard sell, but I think worth including if there's enough support. EDIT: I just remembered I think the Argentina guys ran a CAP Draft in their Discord server.

I remember there being some discussion about CAPCL format in the early posts of the CAP TT thread, but I am too lazy to read over and summarize right now.
 
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Call me crazy but I actually would like us to test at least another CAP lower tier this tour, perhaps instead of 3 SV we could have 2 SVs and something else or even 9 slots instead of 8. Given this is CAPCL and we now have the extra team tour of WCAP I feel like we could really use it to develop these tiers that will normally never be in consideration for the bigger CAP tours.

Monocap was one I particularly enjoyed but definitely hasn't seen much experience in the recent years and I can recall not everyone liking it.

CAP UU was also one of the more enjoyable tour experiences I can recall due to being able to use stuff normally unviable in ou, but its been years since we have explored it so its hard to gauge interest.

CAP doubles had a tour recently and despite some glaring issues (Chugg, possibly Fidgit as well) it was a pretty fun meta to prep in. I think this one in particular should be considered if we plan to expand to champions vgc in the future.

Speaking of Champions, Champions CAP hasn't been tried yet but I wouldn't mind exploring it for futureproofing reasons . I assume it would be like national dex.

CAP LC I can't recall having any glaring issues that I can recall so its another perfectly serviceable tier to try.
 
Don't play CAP (yet) or Draft, but Draft has been included in more and more tours across Smogon including three I've pretty involved with. It has been a fantastic slot in each of them. I usually advocate for it when I see it being considered in tours across Smogon because of the extent it improves the tours it is a part of. If there is no playerbase then fair, but if it there is and the tour expands to 8 slots it should be heavily considered. Whenever we've included Draft the only concession is a week delay between the auction and tour starting date. The draft folks have always been more than happy to organize everything so it has not been any additional burden on the hosts.
 
This is like the only time we have to develop cap oms, whereas cap oldgens have multiple chances to shine during cappl, wcap, and hfa, so i think this can be the cap om tour. I also like the idea of 1 less sv slot (watch us suggest removing the second sv slot next year)

2SV / 1Monotype / 1UU / 1ND / 1LC / 1Dubs / 1Draft

Maybe some oldgen can be slotted over draft but I'd like it to not be. I would also love to see a monocap tier over Draft, but we have no idea what that would look like yet. I am quite involved with all of these formats except monotype but I know monotype is a very popular tier, as it also has an active playerbase and council.

Uu is very fun to play. I think the only thing that is questionable in uu is cawm which has very viable counterplay. Also keep your eyes open for astro and kerf, these goobers will prove themselves to be tip top tier at least and broken at most.

Natdex my beloved :3
Ramnarok is strong but I wouldnt say broken by any metric. The format is in general very high power level and fast, so something can be broken in one game and fine in another.

Lc is craazy, all the cap babies are super strong, which is very hype Imo necturine should be gone but I digress. Its indiv tour had huge success and I think there is a big enough playerbase to justify this pick.

Doubles also had a good indiv tour, but we have to ban chuggalong, test fidgit and test kerfluffle. Otherwise the dubs are gonna be epic.

I have played 1 draft game where i had a lot of fun, 10/10 would recommend but its the newest of these formats so this can be the flex slot where the new or forgotten formats are kicked off like monocap, draft, mnm etc.
 
8 slots I think is fine as it allows for more people to be able to play and correct me if I am wrong but there has been an increase of participants for last team tournaments.

My main suggestion for line up is:

2 SV/Natdex/Doubles/LC/SS/SM/ORAS

These tiers in my opinion are the more developed one since are being played regularly both in forum and room tours which make it easier to learn for newcomers and test which with something unexplored like draft or monotype may be a bit hard to play around or it can be explored a broken mechanic that could not be fun to play against. Most of the resources are available with old gens and there are recently teams donde in the past cappl that will allow people to prepare so that's why I think we should include old gens for these team tournament. However I do agree to some extent that this team tour can be used to explore and develop those unexplored metas since a team tour allow to create a discussion between players and managers that can be beneficial.

In that case we want to explore new metagame I do think that the proposal that CapitanPabloskii made is a great one. Since it will probably start developing better since team tours usually help develop the metagame by talking about what is broken, how to counter it, preparing teams, etc. And this can result in creating those resources for those unexplored metagame like draft for example. And considering that this team tour doesn't have the highest stakes as wcap and CAPPL it may be better to go for it
 
Spammernoob said:
National Dex
This was included last CAPCL, and has an ongoing tour so I think it should be good to go. As far as I know, only borderline Pokemon here is Ramnarok (not having to deal with Tera is big, as is ability to use Z move) but @CapitanPabloskii should have more detailed info.
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Ye mostly what I said in my previous post. Natdex CAP is pretty balanced I'd say, still developing, though there are more Pokemon that check others. But, in turn, there are more Pokemon to check, therefore I think teamstyles that overload one check can be quite steong because of this, and Ramnarok benefits from this really well. A lot of special walls are weak to Fire-type moves and the chip damage from burn obviously hurts said checks. Z moves just further bolster this, Z-Thunder killing things like AV Alomomola, Snaelstrom, Z-Inferno KOing Equilibra and slightly weakened special walls (works with Z-Blizzard too). Z-Thunder is the best imo. The thing that is on my watchlist moreso than Ramnarok is Rage Fist Necturna, but I don't think it'll be broken. Natdex CAP is super fast paced and Necturna will likely do very little in most games, so a matchup fish but better.
 
CapitanPabloskii said:
I would also love to see a monocap tier over Draft, but we have no idea what that would look like yet.
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Quick note: Monocap tier is a tried tier which was present even in previous CAPCLs, last time being in CAPCL III. I believe it also has been explored in OMs but its been a while for them.

If we had to compare the lower tiers in cap we can divide them in the following manner:

Already tested in a team tour: Natdex, Monocap
Tested only in a forum tour: UU CAP, Doubles CAP, CAP LC
Untested in a forum tour: Draft CAP, Champions CAP

If it were up to me, I would choose a format that looks like this:

2 SV / 1 SS / 1 SM / 1 ORAS / 1 ND / 1 UU / 1 Doubles

ND has been slowly been developing to one of the mainstay tiers not only in CAPCL but even in WCAP iirc, I think UU and doubles are also two tiers with massive potential alongside somewhat recent forum activity. I think Monocap needs more recent forum activity as well for Draft and Champions to explore the idea of these tours entering as options for future tournaments. LC could swap UU, as while less developed it has had some more recent tournaments.
 
Looking at the posts so far I feel a great need to share my view. Every post so far excludes DPP and BW in their lineup, and as someone who was specifically excited for the return of this tour because it meant we actually had 2 tours these tiers again, it just seems like a huge mistake.
To be clear, these old gens do not get representation outside CAPPL/CL, unlike ORAS+. I have heavy doubts that they will be included in the next WCAP, though I’ll advocate for them. Homefield Advantage is a nice addition but the amount of games these tiers get in Homefield is actually fairly low.
I’ll fully admit that these tiers are just not very popular, especially BW which has been in a rough state that doesn’t have any clear solution. But what I think they suffer most from is simply lack of development and lack of playerbase, and excluding them from the low stakes tour is only gonna drive that problem further.
(Also I need to do more in the DPP council mb guys IRL has been busy)

If there is truly no enthusiasm for BW and significant enthusiasm for all of these CAPOMs then I guess it’s fair, we’ll have to deal with the unfortunate consequences, but at least DPP should get a chance that tier is extremely fun and quite loved. By contrast I have some rather unpleasant memories of Monotype, and some of the other options have significant flaws (like champions CAP not existing)
I’d like it if this was at least taken in consideration. I hope other oldgens players will express their desire to have them.

National Dex had my full support though.
 
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Alright, new update from mods with blessings from spoo

We are locking in 8 slots. We will decide the number of teams depending on the number of player signups in the first week.
Additionally, we are locking in 3 of the tiers: SV/SV/ND. SV is the current-gen tier and it would feel wrong to not include it. National Dex has had recent activity, and near-universal support in the thread.

As for the remaining 5 slots, the are still up for contention. Here are the ones we are considering:

OMs: UU, Monotype, LC, Doubles
I outlined my thoughts [link="[URL]https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/capcl-v-format-discussion.3788733/post-11140626[/URL]"]here[/link]. I think it's worth conveying that spoo is hesitant to include all of these, as there is a higher risk of something unbalanced popping up.

Pastgens: SS, SM, ORAS, BW, DPP
Tried and tested tiers. There is not really a risk of these, though they already see representation in CAPPL and (for some) WCAP. I will also note that Airwind will be hosting a SM CAP tour on forums with signups next week.

Draft
Definitely the most experimental, given that it hasn't gotten a full forum tour, but also a tier that has seen a lot of support. The biggest thing holding this back is the lack of info we have on it. If you have played in a CAP draft and have the draft sheet / game records, please contact me.


Feel free to give thoughts on how the remaining 5 slots should be allocated (eg. 2 pastgen + 3 OM; draft + 2 pastgen + 3OM; 4OM + draft) or advocate for your favorite tiers.

Given our current timeline, we will close this discussion on Sunday, October 4th 11:59pm -4 to start preparing for the tour.
 
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Spammernoob said:
OMs: UU, Monotype, LC, Doubles
I outlined my thoughts [link="[URL]https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/capcl-v-format-discussion.3788733/post-11140626[/URL]"]here[/link]. I think it's worth conveying that spoo is hesitant to include all of these, as there is a higher risk of something unbalanced popping up.

Pastgens: SS, SM, ORAS, BW, DPP
Tried and tested tiers. There is not really a risk of these, though they already see representation in CAPPL and (for some) WCAP. I will also note that @Airwind will be hosting a SM CAP tour on forums with signups next week.

Draft
Definitely the most experimental, given that it hasn't gotten a full forum tour, but also a tier that has seen a lot of support. The biggest thing holding this back is the lack of info we have on it. If you have played in a CAP draft and have the draft sheet / game records, please contact me.
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bw + dpp + uu + dubs + draft/lc/mono/whateveruwant

gg go next
 
Haxlolo is joking about it but I think he might actually be cooking with this:
BW + DPP + UU + Doubles + LC
I understand the fears of some of the OM tiers being possibly unbalanced but I don't think any of them have any glaring issues that makes the metagames completely unplayable, at least those 3 highlighted.

Including BW + DPP instead of mainstays like SS/SM/ORAS will seem pretty wild I'm sure, but these tiers are very prominently featured in WCAP and CAPPL, while BW and DPP always risk not making it in. If the intention is for this tour to have it's own identity separate from the rest of team tours then going full development is a fair route.

If triple om is too much for people, I can support replacing LC with like, SS or something.
 
If we use oldgens, I think BW/DPP should be the only ones in the discussion. SM/SS are both represented in many other places and ORAS is in a weird spot timeline wise, but I definately think we shouldn't do more than 2 oldgens.
My thoughts for the remaining 5 slots are:
Draft / UU / LC / Doubles/ DPP
One could replace any tier but Draft with BW if there is interest though (especially Chuggalong Meta Doubles Cap).
I heard someone on discord say that Draft brings people from different metas together and I think I agree. Draft is a blast and I think anyone can cook in this meta, while also having the most to be explored which I love.

UU and LC are mostly my personal biases shining through, I love these tiers and I want them to be played more, also LC could need some developing.

Doubles however...
It has its issues. Kerfluffle is a crazy support, Fidgit makes things last longer than they should, Chuggalong feels like its immune to half of the metagame and you basically can't touch it if it has support from teammates. #banchugger
Even if I'm kind of a Doubles hater, the tier itself is fun and it seems we need to prove how broken some things are, so no time like the present! It has a bunch of support behind it, which is why I'd be foolish to exclude it from my lists. Give the people what they want :)

DPP/BW
Oldgens to have some rep in here, both good metas enjoyed by many around the globe. It would be a tad bit strange to exclude oldgens to the former "CAP oldgen" tier with 4 oldgens.

Actually that doesn't sound like the most defining thing of past cls, considering there are 6 oldgens. We should've taken the decision to axe 1 SV slot a long time ago.
 
SS / BW / DPP / UU / Doubles
Was gonna put SM on there too but apparantly there's an SM tournament coming? They've got their representation.
This allows for a total of three very popular and established tiers, the two old gens with low rep, and the three OMs with the most potential. If you wanna replace one with Draft that's fine but I am not convinced yet on that tier.
We could also replace SS with another SV if SV rep is deemed so important, but to me it is not.
 
I agree with Gekokeso

BW / DPP / LC / UU / Doubles

Haxlolo cocino

I really like these tiers as they find a balance from old gens and om, while SS gets left out I don't think is that big of an issue, the tier has been explored quite a lot and it gets revisited in cappl and wcap so I don't think is that necessary to explore.

BW and DPP for the old gens are the better ones to get tested and explore as are the least played, and this for sure would get talked and discuss about, something similar to what happen to ORAS and SM for wcap that sparked discussion and even discovered some great techs and this could happen as having these old gens played and having a role.

LC has been played a lot in history and it gives a shiny for the little guys and art to be played more, ( I know that prevos are a side of flavor ) I do think is important for them to be played and see what they can do regardless, especially in this kind of tours

UU would be cool I don't know that much of the tier but cmon is just SV CAP with voodoom I don't think is that difficult to add to a tier. On a serious note uu would be fun to teams be able to explore it and have more thinking on which players put in which tiers.

Double has been quite supported with the recently doubles tournament and having more data with a team tour will for sure develop it even more as player and teams will prepare for it.
 
No concrete updates but here is where my head is at - speaking only for myself, not necessarily the rest of the mod team.

SV / SV / ND - Locked
=====
BW / DPP / UU - Heavily leaning towards
LC / Mono / Doubles - I like these
Draft - Need more information / further convincing

I’ve been swayed by the arguments in this thread to include BW and DPP. I think a full OM lineup would be rather chaotic and unpredictable anyways. As for UU, I believe developing this format is a good thing for our future - I appreciate that it offers a home for some of the CAPs that fell by the wayside over time. It also seems to have some of the strongest community support. This basically leaves us to pick two of LC, Mono, and Dubs. Mono is easy to include because it’s seen a lot of play in the past, and I feel confident that it would field decent signup numbers, but I’d certainly like to hear from anyone who’s played those three tiers recently. LC and Dubs seem to have more momentum than Mono due to their recent tours, so I’m trying to keep an open mind. Draft… is questionable. I like the idea of it, but lack basically any information on the format. Apparently there are some discord leagues for this? No smogon forum presence whatsoever is concerning to me. Willing to hear people out if they have a strong argument to make.

Last thing: I think Baddy was the one who brought this up on discord, but implementing flex slots is an option to consider. This basically means we’d have a larger pool of tiers that each team would pick 3 from every week. It would allow us to include more tiers, and could result in a more interesting draft and week-to-week experience. Many other tiers have ran flex slot formats for their CLs, and as far as I can tell, the tours were a lot of fun. This would allow us to fit more tiers in the tournament - something like a pool of ORAS, BW, DPP, ND, LC, UU, Mono, Dubs is possible. I realize this idea is sort of throwing out a curveball last-minute, but I’d still be interested to hear how people feel about it,
especially if you’re someone who has played in a tournament with flex slots before.
 
I love Flex-based team tours. They're so fun. Brainstorming as a team which combo of 2-3 tiers is most likely to trip up your opponent's team is incredibly engaging. Seeing that they only have TNM for SS, and realizing that they're probably picking SS to ensure he wins, and then realizing that you could also pick SS to force them to slot in a second weaker SS player and raise your chances is super super cool. This also means that everyone gets a chance to play, as you need someone for the entire list.

Do all old gens, all reasonable OMs, and flex slots. They're incredibly fun, and anyone who participated in NUCL will agree with me.
 
Just was scrolling randomly through forums and saw this thread. Been on the Mono CAP council since it was starting up this generation and I think it deserves its shot in this tour. The playerbase is there and it's one of the more developed mono OMs that within our community people like, we've also dealt with problematic elements of the tier (Revenankh and Hemogoblin, wish we never unbanned the latter) and the tier is in a good spot as of now. CAP Mono has also been included in previous CAP teamtours as stated above so this isn't some foreign format in the grand scheme of things.

Will tag council to throw their 2c into the hat kiru ltranc Fentropy Sificon
 
Monotype sucks, flex slots suck, and Spammernoob sucks thats my two cents

More seriously flex slots are an interesting idea but either they add unfortunate variance to what oldgens get featured, they make SV rep even less of thing, or we do them on the OM tiers which doesn’t make a lot of sense since very few people play them. Or were we planning on doing it on all slots??

Anyway I could be convinced but for now I’m really not sure it’s the right approach
 
I like flex slots, but with this many new formats, I think normal slots are better. It lets the best/most interested players of each format play each other and develop the meta faster, and managers only have to worry about one game of that tier per week.

Not much opinion on the formats themselves, what spoo said makes sense, and it's kind of a tossup between any of the remaining 3 OM tiers.
 
spoo said:
SV / SV / ND - Locked
=====
BW / DPP / UU - Heavily leaning towards
LC / Mono / Doubles - I like these
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Gonna throw my heavy support behind these formats. Ive been convinced and keeping the oldgens that arent in other tts in the tour makes a lot of sense, besides, i like them :)
Not having 3 SV slots is great for diversity and more fun formats for a more fun experience :D. I will say though, 1 SV slot would be too little.
Magic Mayhem Maiden said:
I like flex slots, but with this many new formats, I think normal slots are better. It lets the best/most interested players of each format play each other and develop the meta faster, and managers only have to worry about one game of that tier per week.
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Magic Mayhem Maiden took the feelings that i cant put into words about flex slots and said it as i couldnt.
 
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