Policy Review CAP's direction once Gen 5 is released

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X-Act

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We all know that Gen 5 will be released soon. We all equally know that the CAP Pokemon were created with Gen 4 in mind.

So, this thread is to shed a light on what will happen with existing CAP Pokemon once Gen 5 is released.

  • Will they be 'updated' for Gen 5, so as to be playable there as well (sort of how Gen 1/2/3 Pokemon were updated for Gen 4 to be playable there)?
  • Will they be left as they are, playable in Gen 4 but illegal in Gen 5?

Just an eye-opener.
 
I would suggest a period of playtesting in which they are allowed with some updates. If they prove to be too centralizing/broken, remove them if not continue the same way it has up until now.

I know noone like play testing but that is the fairest option unless an executive decision based on little information is made.
 
As I said in an earlier thread, it's very likely that the overall power level will go up between generations - after all, there'll be new pokemon, and new moves for the existing ones, and GameFreak hasn't exactly seemed immune to power creep in the past.

Most people feel that the current CaPs are a little more powerful than the standard metagame - so IMO this will be no bad thing. I wouldn't be surprised if the CaPs fit into Gen 5 with almost no tweaking at all.

So, my suggestion is that the CaPs are implemented into Gen 5 as soon as possible, with as few changes as possible; and then a review thread is pencilled in for three to four weeks after that, where we decide whether any alterations are appropriate.
 
i personally would like to see the cap pokemon implemented in a gen v sim exactly the way they are now - the only difference is that we would have to have spriting contests for some new gen v-style sprites, and maybe add some gen v move tutors. if they suck in gen v, it's no big deal, if we find them overpowered, we can uber them. but i really don't want to see things like their stats or typings edited in any way.
 

Deck Knight

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Too early to tell right now for older CAP Pokemon. We need to find out if there are new TMs, HMs, or Tutors first, then take a look at the new non-TM/HM moves and see if they fit in (for instance, Syclant would love a better Physical Ice STAB than Ice Punch.)

It'd also be ideal if we could recalculate VGMs in Gen V and see if we need to adjust our limit upward (which would again require a stabilized metagame to discern what are and aren't VGMs).

CAP's purpose is to test Pokemon concepts in the OU metagame as it is concieved at the time. Since the Gen V metagame probably won't stabilize for a few months, testing the CAPs individually is almost worthless in that environment. Fortunately we'll have one "last hurrah" I think for Gen 4 and close it out with CAP 12. By the time CAP 12 is done everything should be stabilized, or at least enough for us to consider the Gev V movepool tweaking and testing of previous CAPs.
 

X-Act

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I'm sure that leaving a Pokemon exactly the same from Gen. 4 to Gen. 5 isn't possible, Umbreon Dan. For one thing, Gen. 5 will have a different TM list. Every generation so far has had a different TM list than its predecessor, so everything points to Gen. 5 having this too. Since the Pokemon TM learning list is arguably one of the most important aspects of that Pokemon's movepool (if not the most important), the movepool would be changed, and hence the Pokemon would change as a whole.
 
i would assume that the b/w cartridges will allow players to trade over their old d/p pokemon in a manner similar to how it worked in gen iv, so it's not like the cap pokemon will need to lose any moves. i don't really see how the tm list is a problem at all :x
 

Destiny Warrior

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I personally feel that we should test all the CAPs together in Gen 5, then run movepool revisions on them, but hey, that's just me!
 

bugmaniacbob

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Just throwing an idea out here, but would it be possible to have two separate ladders for CAP? One that has the 4th gen CAPmon included, and one that doesn't? That would seem the most judicious answer to the problem. On the other hand, if that isn't possible or would split resources (ie. playerbase) too much, I would be inclined to lean more toward allowing our current CAPs in 5th gen CAP, for a number of reasons. Firstly because I'd prefer not to 'archive' the sum result of several years' experimentation, but also because I'm intrigued to learn about how our creations will cope in a completely new metagame.

The biggest problem, as far as I can see, with deciding this issue now is that we don't actually know anything about the 5th generation that is relevant to changes in existing Pokemon. Certainly there may be new abilities, moves, items, but we can't really say yet that we know how this will be structured. At the moment, the CAP Process contains Concept, Type, Ability, Stats, Movepool, Art and Sprites. Obviously, the concept won't be changed, the type and stats won't be changed unless there is something ingame whereby they change (again, needs looking into). The art is irrelevant, and although the sprites will need changing:

...that is really a secondary concern. As for the abilities, most CAPs already have two abilities anyway, and the only one who doesn't is Arghonaut, who isn't likely to get a new ability - he's got a fantastic one already, he doesn't need another. Barring something like Dream World or 3 abilities for all Pokemon, this can be disregarded. So, the only thing worth bothering about is the movepool.

Obviously, we will have to look at the precedent ingame before making any standing assumptions, but if we take the 4th generation as precedent, the most notable traits standing out are that all moves currently in the movepool remain, as regards TMs, Levelup and Egg moves. What would be very interesting is if we could establish a relationship between the movepool size and moves gained in the shift between generations for the gamefreak-created Pokemon, and the equivalent for VGMs (which would also have to be changed), and then we could either add moves by community consensus as appropriate, or simply reopen movepool submission stages in accordance with the new requirements, much like what was recently done with the current requirements.

One thing I would prefer not to see is any attempt to 'tweak' or 'revise' the CAPs to make them fit in to the 5th gen metagame, even if they end up catastrophically bad or Uber after our first attempt at 'migrating'. They were created at a specific time and should remain largely as such - this is not saying that all new moves should be purely flavour, but we should not be trying to deliberately integrate them. Like I said, I would be greatly interested to see how they perform in a new metagame. So, ideally I would like to see a process of 'make changes' ---> 'test' ---> 'leave alone' (exempting, of course, any revisions or changes to requirements that make updating necessary), where 'make changes' consists of compiling a list of mechanics changes that should be taken into consideration (ie. new abilities, moves being nerfed, type-move reqs. etc)working out new VGMs and VGM/Move limits, revising movepools one at a time, and then playtesting.

I think that's all I want to say.
 
I think it's more logical to wait a while until the gen v metagame stabelizes a bit (as mentioned above) and we all have a better understanding of the gen v tiers and what not before we go generationing up the cap pokemon. The point is to make them competitive. If we go and revise them too early they could become unbalenced before competitive battleing trends have a chance to settle into a natural motion.

If the cap pokemon are bumped out of the OU tier (up or down) then doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose?

Or maybe it's just me *shrugs* :P . Anyway, that's my view.
 
I agree with bugmaniacbob's proposal; one ladder with 5th gen CAPs only, and one with both 4th and 5th gen CAPs.

However, I do think that the CAPs can be adapted for the new metagame, in regards to movepool revisions. I don't see why they should be left UU or Uber if they end up there; if they can be restored to OU, then I think that's what should happen.
This will most likely end up with them gaining new moves; a majority of 4th gen OUs from previous generations commonly use moves introduced in the 4th generation. This will most likely be the case with 5th gen too, meaning CAPs will probably need movepool upgrades to keep up.

I think we should draft a movepool upgrade once full details of 5th gen moves are found, and test with that. Then, after a period of playtesting, review the additions and make changes (without changing its 4th gen movepool).

EDIT: Also, most of the revealed 4th gen and below Pokémon use their D/P or Platinum sprites in B/W; Vaporeon's sprite appears to be from Platinum, but with the body flipped and a different head. There's no need to change the sprites; after all, we didn't change the sprites with the release of HG/SS, even though they used new sprites for over half the existing Pokémon. B/W's sprite style is very similar to D/P/Pt's (hence why Game Freak is using D/P/Pt sprites), so the CAPs won't look out of place.
The back sprites, however, will need redoing (as 5th gen has the whole of the Pokémon's body in the back sprite, rather than just the upper portion).
 

DougJustDoug

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I really have only one concern right now for CAP moving into the 5th generation, and it has been my primary driving force for the past six months, at least:

Programming a modded battle server for CAP

Shoddy 2 will be up and running soon, but unfortunately it is not really built with mod servers in mind. It's going to require quite a bit of work by me to get a CAP server working. Not the least of which is that Shoddy 2 doesn't work on Windows, which is the platform I currently use for the CAP server.

So, my main focus is the CAP server. Without a working server, everything else on this project is pretty much pointless, unless we intend to be a theorymon-only project -- which is a waste of time, IMO. I've been working very hard on the server issues for most of this year already, and I will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Everything else, as it pertains to CAP in the 5th generation, is a secondary concern for me.
 
Gen. 5 will have a different TM list. Every generation so far has had a different TM list than its predecessor, so everything points to Gen. 5
not entirely true, when gen 4 came out, they only added 42 new tm's onto the existing 50, it's not an entirely new set. However, it is unlikely that they will add even more and surpass 100.
 
I think it is very possible that they may make a completely new TM list. I remember a post somewhere about how there is a Route 1 and such, indicating that this is a very far off land. This could mean that Game Freak is perhaps starting with a clean slate in this game. Just a possibility, because I think it would be akward if there were no Gen 5 move TMs
 

Korski

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This is an interesting question. With no details from GF regarding how BW move-learning will be organized, we can only surmise a direction for CAP based on the pattern established. Tutor move acquisition should be easy enough; it's pretty clear which types of Pokemon get particular tutor moves as new generations emerge. The only decisions we should have to make with those would be if and only if the added tutor moves make a particular CAP too powerful for OU, in which case we would have to choose between revision (which could simply mean not giving that particular CAP the tutor move(s) in question) or ban in the gen. 5 metagame. I can't see the process being much more difficult or having much more of a metagame impact than the HGSS tutor move additions. Additionally, there's no reason to alter the level-up or egg movepools unless something really drastic happens.

The big issue, of course is TMs. I actually don't doubt that the TM list will change a lot in BW, lest we get slammed with a 150+ TM list, which would be brutal. What may end up happening is that we create new tutor and TM movepools for each CAP within the 5th generation, in which case we'd still have the gen. 4 versions as they are now and then a new list for each for the 5th gen., just like all other Pokemon that have transcended generations before. We could make it complicated for ourselves by giving them new level-up and egg movepools as well, but I don't really see the point in it. We should just behave as though our current CAPmons aren't available for capture in-game in BW or capable of breeding for new moves in that generation.

What would make it easier on the process, I think, is to look at trends of gen. 5 move acquisition from existing gen. 4 Pokemon (as there's a very strong chance they won't be losing any moves in the transition) and base CAP new move acquisitions off of that (this would be based on typing only, I presume). This will, of course, affect our VGM, move-move, and type-move requirements for future complete CAP movepools, but not necessarily current CAP movepools, as their VGM, M-M, and T-M requirements can be only slightly tweaked (added to), to match up with what the rest of the gen. 4 Pokemon gained in the transition. Since these new additions will be taken from TM and tutor moves only, it shouldn't be too difficult a task.

In terms of the website, we can add generation tabs (D/P, B/W) and write new analyses regarding each CAPs' behavior in the new metagame. I'm sure I and more than a few other users would enjoy working on that.

I think this whole process would allow a relatively smooth transition for each of our CAPs into the new metagame, one that is on par with how Gamefreak updates its Pokemon for each generation. Playtesting each individual updated CAPmon in a stabilized gen. 5 metagame would be a waste of time, imo. We already have a good idea of how these CAPs interact in gen. 4 OU. By the time we see a stabilized gen. 5 metagame, the small changes we will have made to the CAPs (TM and tutor moves) should be completely equatable to the changes in the metagame and should transition smoothly.
 
I think that if a few pokemon don't really live up to standards in the next generation, that it would be unwise to alter them competitively. It would be interesting to see how a generation shift effects what we have created over the long-term. Perhaps Cyclohm might be completely outclassed by another dragon type, but as the standard metagame changes, maybe that other dragon type gets deemed uber and Cyclohm can fit its way back into the metagame. These kinds of possibilities are important to preserve for the sake of gaining more knowledge about how the CAP metagame shifts when an entire new fleet of pokemon is introduced. If several pokemon end up being outclassed or irrelevant, then we can use that experience to make future pokemon that will transcend generations, like Starmie has over the course of all generations.
 
Indeed.

Additionally I think revisions would almost need to be made. Just look at what Stealth Rock did to gen4. And there were quite a few moves just like that, that completely changed the environment. Without access to the new moves the CAP pokemon may no longer be viable in the standard 5th gen metagame.
 
Maybe some of the Cap-Only creations can be removed because there's an equivalent in the real games (I think it will be just Collosoil's Rebound, and MAYBE Fidgit's Persistence). With these equivalents being used ofc
 
I suppose the most logical thing to do would simply have our future CAPs be Gen. 5 based, and slightly modify our older ones to fit Gen. 5 more effectively.
 

tennisace

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I'm locking this until solid gen 5 info comes in. At that point i will reopen it so we can discuss this in terms of the actual changes instead of speculation, so there is no "if there's x, then we should do y, but if not we do z".
 
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