Serious Catalonia's independence

[Bughouse]

The thing is Aldaron that the cultural differences are vastly overstated. That's why I respond to whiny cultural claims with practical economics. But fine, I'll address the more philosophical cultural claims head-on as politely as I can.

Catalonia has never been independent and so has never really adopted anything particularly unique. They make the human pyramids and don't like bullfights, and that's about it... culturally Catalonia is only slightly different from Spain. Slightly different cuisine, but nothing radically different (not to mention that Spain has several other cuisines. it's not a unified Spanish vs Catalan exception at all.) And in any case, that's like saying that Louisiana should be independent from the US because of Cajun cooking and the many New Orleans traditions. But in fact, it's been a part of the US since 1803 and is far more similar to the rest of the US than it is different and so union is the rational outcome. Catalonia is in the same boat - except for an even longer amount of time.

And so then we turn to language, which is definitely different. There is a clear preference for Catalan (pushed by the government in recent years... it wasn't that way 100 years ago at all). But if language is what defines a country, how does one explain Switzerland? Should it be folded into France, Germany, and Italy? To insist that divisions must be made where even minor differences in language and culture exist is to reject the past few centuries of humanity's history. Multiculturalism is not and never has been bad.

There's so much more to whether or not something is or should be a country than Catalonians claim based on their "identity." And it's probably worth reminding them that 91% of Catalonians backed the 1978 constitution.

 

[billymills]

The thing is Aldaron that the cultural differences are vastly overstated. That's why I respond to whiny cultural claims with practical economics. But fine, I'll address the more philosophical cultural claims head-on as politely as I can.

What exactly about your economic arguments have been practical? All I've been seeing is speculation that borders on ridiculous.

Catalonia has never been independent and so has never really adopted anything particularly unique. They make the human pyramids and don't like bullfights, and that's about it... culturally Catalonia is only slightly different from Spain. Slightly different cuisine, but nothing radically different (not to mention that Spain has several other cuisines. it's not a unified Spanish vs Catalan exception at all.) And in any case, that's like saying that Louisiana should be independent from the US because of Cajun cooking and the many New Orleans traditions. But in fact, it's been a part of the US since 1803 and is far more similar to the rest of the US than it is different and so union is the rational outcome. Catalonia is in the same boat - except for an even longer amount of time.

And so then we turn to language, which is definitely different. There is a clear preference for Catalan (pushed by the government in recent years... it wasn't that way 100 years ago at all). But if language is what defines a country, how does one explain Switzerland? Should it be folded into France, Germany, and Italy? To insist that divisions must be made where even minor differences in language and culture exist is to reject the past few centuries of humanity's history. Multiculturalism is not and never has been bad.

There's so much more to whether or not something is or should be a country than Catalonians claim based on their "identity." And it's probably worth reminding them that 91% of Catalonians backed the 1978 constitution.

The united states has had a relatively stable government for the past 220 years. Louisiana has been part of the United States pretty much the whole time. Spain's government has changed drastically multiple times. I don't know Spanish history all that well, so all I have done is skim wikipedia, but the following lines stood out to me:


In 1640, with the war in central Europe having no clear winner except the French, both Portugal and Catalonia rebelled. Portugal was lost to the crown for good; in Italy and most of Catalonia, French forces were expelled and Catalonia's independence was suppressed.

Another Carlist uprising, the Matiners' War, was launched in 1846 in Catalonia, but it was poorly organized and suppressed by 1849.

The Carlists were the most immediate threat, launching a violent insurrection after their poor showing in the 1872 elections. There were calls for socialist revolution from the International Workingmen's Association, revolts and unrest in the autonomous regions of Navarre and Catalonia, and pressure from the Catholic Church against the fledgling republic.

A revolt in 1909 in Catalonia was bloodily suppressed.[71]

The Republic devolved substantial autonomy to the Basque Country and to Catalonia.

An armed rising of workers in October 1934, which reached its greatest intensity in Asturias and Catalonia, was forcefully put down by the CEDA government.

Still, there are some nationalist movements and political parties of regional scope (i.e. in Aragon, the Canaries, Catalonia, Euskadi, Galicia), mostly with seminal ideologies born in the late 19th century,[98][99]


I'd certainly excuse Catalonia for not pursuing any independence movements under a fascist government (1938-75), and certainly would excuse them for approving a constitution that promoted democracy instead of a violent dictatorship.

 

[Vineon]

Unless I am mistaken, Switzerland decentralizes a whole lot to it's cantons. If Spain allowed for the same, there probably wouldn't be an independence movement in Catalonia. It also probably helps that the German Swiss aren't that much more numerous than French Swiss (and then Italian Swiss).

Switzerland is an exception in a continent clearly divided by languages.

 

[Bughouse]

Lol wiki articles about Catalonia... Gee I wonder if those are mostly written/edited by people with a bias...

Here's the truth: Catalonia already DOES have more devolved power than the vast majority of groups desiring independence. Spain really does not need to allow them any more local control. They have a lot. What they're complaining about is that they want more.

The Basque Country (also wealthy, also at times separatist) as well as Navarre got in the 1978 constitution some more financial independence than other regions because of what are known as fueros... and I don't want to get into complex financial history of the autonomous communities of Spain, but suffice it to say that something along these lines is what Catalonia actually wants. Independence is a farce even to many who are claiming to push for it. All they really want is a foral system, which allows for more local control of taxation. Trouble is Catalonia screwed it up for themselves by supporting the Hapsburg Charles instead of the Bourbon Philip. By doing so they lost their fueros that they had from 1200-1700. The Basque Country and Navarre didn't make that mistake, and they got to keep their fueros, which they then retained in the 1978 constitution post-Franco. Sucks to do that because of 300 years ago... But that's Spain's logic. They'd been living without their fueros for nearly 300 years, why give them back. And as far as I know Catalonia didn't push for them in the 1978 constitution. After all, as I said in my last post 91% supported it as is.

Catalonia is not uniquely being discriminated against. It is in the vast majority of Spain. Only 2 of 17 communities get the special privilege Catalonia wants. Catalonia is just using independence as a bargaining chip to try to get devolved fiscal power a la fueros. It is a manufactured conflict since 1978, when apparently no one cared about fiscal control and everyone wanted to be a part of Spain.

So it's hard to view it sympathetically. The identity claim is manufactured to try to justify an economic claim they have no right to.

 

[dsm77773]

There's so much more to whether or not something is or should be a country than Catalonians claim based on their "identity." And it's probably worth reminding them that 91% of Catalonians backed the 1978 constitution.

But in here you have to understand the situation in Spain at that moment. People was scared. A dictator had just died, and other members of its party were thinking of taking the power. To prevent another dictator assuming all the power, people all over Spain voted for that Constitution.

 

[Joim]

Hello, I'm Catalan.

First of all, identity argument is merely stupid. There is little cultural difference between Catalonia and the rest of Spain. Hell, there are other regions with more cultural differences when compared to Castille, which is what Catalans think about when saying "Spain". Spain is not Castille. Spain is not hegemonic. Hell, that's what's so cool about our country, it's a crucible of cultures and kingdoms that have been together for centuries. Many regions in Spain have a language of their own as well as specific festivities, just like the human castles. The sardana is not even original from Catalonia, neither is the barretina. Even the trademark pà amb tomàquet (bread with tomato) comes from Murcia region, even though everyone tags it as Catalan food. Moreover, Catalonia was never a kingodm of its own, it was a bunch of counties, then it got united as a Principality already inside of the Kingdom of Aragon. Anyway, we've had so much internal migration that it doesn't even make sense to mark any ethnical or cultural separation within our borders. Half the independentists are sons or grandsons of people from Extremadura and Andalusia.

Politically wise, Catalan independentists oft talk about how anti-catalan and right-wing the central government is. That would be right, however, the main political force in Catalonia has been catholic far right for decades as well. So a new country would make basically no political change, other than the current corrupt people in Catalonia would have total power to keep stealing from the Catalans with absolute impunity. Yeah, I'm sure that's why all the Catalans want...

Economically wise, Catalonia would suffer. A lot. Even if in the future it could become richer (which is a possibility), it would be in a terrible position probably for a couple of decades or more. Valencia has a big port that can become the main port of Spain in the Mediterranean sea, most of Catalonia's GDPs comes from selling to Spain, and they collect taxes from doing so right now. As for the goods that come from Europe, it's possible to just set up a new route in Basque Country, Navarra, or Aragon. Catalonia would use euro, without a coin of its own, without being part of it, just like some bottom-tier countries. Salaries would plummet, of course, and I bet they'd lose public healthcare and education. While there's a myth Spain gets a lot of riches due to Catalonia, they only account for what they pay, ignoring the fact that defense and infrastructure and many other things are paid by the central government. How would an independent Catalonia even pay for a professional military (they want to be inside the NATO)? And what prevents the allahu akbars from conquering it if they just don't join the NATO and don't have their own army? Will they pay Swiss mercenaries like the Vatican? lol

Historically wise: Catalan bourgeoisie has a long history of crying to get more money. Back then where the central state helped Catalonia become a fabric industry, it had worse quality and higher prices than those of other countries like England. It was enforced in all of Spain to buy Catalan cloth instead, just to avoid rebellions there (this is where the stereotype of Catalans being greedy was born). The current hymn of Catalonia is the hymn of a rebellion, but it's more than that. Catalonia rebelled, the Catalan government took the chance to get independence and power over the lands to get power in Europe, then they joined the French (this was during the 30 years war). Okay, so, the rebellion was due to abuse of Spanish troops that stayed in Catalonia to fight against France (troops that had people from the very Aragon kingdom as well, not only Castille, which was just half of them), then the poor Catalans started killing rich Catalans that had moer power, it was just peasants killing the nobility because they wanted better conditions. Then, the nobility took control of it, they had to join France, and French soldiers were ten times worse with the Catalan population. In the end, Catalans came back to Spain crying, the French were expelled with a treaty in which Spain lost the north part of Catalonia, and the Spanish king swore to maintain and abide by the Catalan law.

All in all, it's just a politic strategy to keep stealing form the population and to remain unjudged by CiU (now CDC). They don't give a shit about nationalism, independence, or Catalonia. They just want the money and the armchairs.

PD: Bughouse, Catalan is still not predominant. More than half the people in Catalonia use Spanish as their main language nowadays.

 

[Vineon]

While there's a myth Spain gets a lot of riches due to Catalonia, they only account for what they pay, ignoring the fact that defense and infrastructure and many other things are paid by the central government. How would an independent Catalonia even pay for a professional military (they want to be inside the NATO)?

Or perhaps they simply do not disregard that the Catalan people also pay taxes to that central government which in turn is used for things like defense and infrastructure. You talk as if the Catalan folks didn't pay for these things. :[

And what prevents the allahu akbars from conquering it if they just don't join the NATO and don't have their own army?

What, really? I don't know. Perhaps the answer has to do with there being no muslims waiting in the shadows for Catalonia to secede with a motive to conquer back part of the Iberian peninsula. Who are you scared of? Moroccans? Are they your "allahu akbars"?

 

[Joim]

Catalan folks (including me as I still declare my yearly income tax in Catalonia) pay taxes for many things, which is of course used for infrastructure and defense. However, it would be difficult to pay for all of that on their own. Every region pays taxes, and then those taxes are used where they are needed (and some of it goes to the politicians pockets, but that's another story). Serious economists have talked about the numbers and most of them agree that they couldn't pay for it. In fact, part of independentists plans to get money at first is to emit public debt, yeah, perfect plan, especially with the trash bonds Catalonia has. Only central government is willing to lend them money... Guess who will not lend Catalonia more money if it secedes?

Defenseless mediterranean country? More than enough to give it a try. Not saying it will happen, just it's a possibility. Every country needs to have some kind of defense, that's a granted. Also by "allahu akbars" I don't talk about muslims in general, I talk about Daesh and friends. You know, Catalonia was part of Ummayad, excuse good enough to try to invade a non-NATO, armyless country.

 

[Vineon]

In fact, part of independentists plans to get money at first is to emit public debt, yeah, perfect plan, especially with the trash bonds Catalonia has. Only central government is willing to lend them money... Guess who will not lend Catalonia more money if it secedes?

Defenseless mediterranean country? More than enough to give it a try. Not saying it will happen, just it's a possibility. Every country needs to have some kind of defense, that's a granted. Also by "allahu akbars" I don't talk about muslims in general, I talk about Daesh and friends. You know, Catalonia was part of Ummayad, excuse good enough to try to invade a non-NATO, armyless country.

Or just recover the taxes sent to the central government. Just as before, you use them to pay for infrastructure and the army which you so much care about. It isn't new spendings for Catalans; they already pay for all of that. As for Spain "lending money" to Catalonia, where do you figure this money comes from? Isn't it just effectively Catalan taxes being reinvested back in Catalonia? Catalans claim to pay more to the central government than they receive back.

Besides, if following a secession Catalonia keeps it's part of the Spanish debt, it'll necessarily come with Spanish assets, which will include infrastructure and may include military assets. If there's a debt transfer, there will be a matching assets transfer.

And I just can't take your muslim fears seriously.

What this thread is clearly missing is a Catalan that actually supports independence.

 

[dsm77773]

And I just can't take your muslim fears seriously.

Me neither, I'm afraid.

What this thread is clearly missing is a Catalan that actually supports independence.

What about me man??

 

[Joim]

Or just recover the taxes sent to the central government. Just as before, you use them to pay for infrastructure and the army which you so much care about. It isn't new spendings for Catalans; they already pay for all of that. As for Spain "lending money" to Catalonia, where do you figure this money comes from? Isn't it just effectively Catalan taxes being reinvested back in Catalonia? Catalans claim to pay more to the central government than they receive back.

Besides, if following a secession Catalonia keeps it's part of the Spanish debt, it'll necessarily come with Spanish assets, which will include infrastructure and may include military assets. If there's a debt transfer, there will be a matching assets transfer.

And I just can't take your muslim fears seriously.

What this thread is clearly missing is a Catalan that actually supports independence.

Yeah, a percentage of Catalans say that, but not all of us do (especially the ones that know a bit of economy). However, those taxes aren't enough to cover the expenses of a new state. Economy isn't a game of sum and substraction, you know... It doesn't work like "this tax here goes here and it's all the same". And I shall remind you once again that most of Catalonia's GDP comes from selling to other Spanish regions, just because "hey, it's our country, buy from them first". Do you think that will still happen if the region secedes? Let me assure you that no, it won't happen. Moreover, Catalonia also has regional debt to settle with Spain first, a debt that is terribly big, by the way, since the Catalan government is big on wasting and stealing money. Catalonia doubles Valencia, the second most indebted region, in debt. By the end of 2014, Catalonia had a regional debt of 61.836 millions, more than the next two, Valencia with 34.782 and Andalusia with 26.548. The next one would be the region of Madrid, 25.018. Now, by the end of 2015, Catalonia has a debt of 67.855 millions, followed by the region of Valencia with 40.085, and then Andalusia with 29.882, Madrid is now at 26.312.

Talking about fiscal deficit, both the Region of Madrid and Balear Islands invest more on the rest of the state than Catalonia does in percentage of GDP. One must understand that in this country, the wealth generated by taxes is redistributed so every region can evolve with the rest, to avoid having mega poor regions and super rich regions. But this is not losing money for one's region or alimony, not at all. The whole state works together: those regions that get back more than they invest in their fiscality also have historically provided with workforce, raw materials, and clients. The money that you can make in Catalonia is thanks to the cheap materials you get from Extremadura. Once again, Catalonia's market is Spain, Spain is where Catalonia generates revenue, thus taxes, thus that money that then goes to the rest of the state which then buys Catalan products.

Thanks mainly to the region of Madrid, where a lot of big companies are located, Spain would actually barely lose 2% of its GDP after all debts and assets are settled with an independent Catalonia. However, Catalonia would suffer economically a lot, and that's something I don't want to see, as all my family lives there. We've seen it before in Europe.

And you're confusing fears with just talking about probabilities. It's just absurd to want to have a country without defense, and I'm mentioning possible cases in which defense would be necessary. We could talk about the defense of Andorra, by the way, which would be Catalonia's duty if it were independent.

 

[dsm77773]

Unless I'm missing something, setting your own army for defense is one of the parts of an independence process.

And yes, Muslims could invade us without defense, that's technically possible, but it's like a thousand times more likely that they just don't, why are we even discussing this?

 

[gvmgvm40]

I don't talk about muslims in general, I talk about Daesh and friends. You know, Catalonia was part of Ummayad, excuse good enough to try to invade a non-NATO, armyless country.

I'm mentioning possible cases in which defense would be necessary.

And yes, Muslims could invade us without defense, that's technically possible, but it's like a thousand times more likely that they just don't, why are we even discussing this?

That's extremely absurd. It's outside the realm of possibility. If you see a possible military threat to a post-independence Catalonia from "allahu akbars" (or, well, from anywhere except Spain) you're seriously deluded. A newly independent country will take a few years to build an army, yes, "but maybe it'll get invaded or something" doesn't sound like a logical argument against independence.

 

[Bughouse]

Catalonia had a regional debt of 61.836 millions

you know in English you can say billions where you would say "mil millones?"

I don't know why millon in Spanish = million in English but billon =/= billion... But yeah just thought I'd point out no one would say 61,836 million in English :)

Anyway, glad to see an actual Catalonian, Joim, agree that the idea of "Catalonian identity" is pretty bs and insignificantly different from the Castillian identity. My bad about thinking Catalan was the dominant language. My experience there was from a 4-day visit where no one would talk in Spanish to me :[ everyone wanted English.

p.s. I agree with you mostly, but plz don't refer to muslims as "allahu akbars." That's not even funny.

 

[Joim]

Unless I'm missing something, setting your own army for defense is one of the parts of an independence process.

And yes, Muslims could invade us without defense, that's technically possible, but it's like a thousand times more likely that they just don't, why are we even discussing this?

That's extremely absurd. It's outside the realm of possibility. If you see a possible military threat to a post-independence Catalonia from "allahu akbars" (or, well, from anywhere except Spain) you're seriously deluded. A newly independent country will take a few years to build an army, yes, "but maybe it'll get invaded or something" doesn't sound like a logical argument against independence.

Because it's possible, whether probable or not. Any defenseless country can be threatened, it's dellusional to think otherwise. The whole argument about this is that Catalonia is going to need defense, and that costs a lot of public money, to join the NATO (where there's unilateral veto, by the way) the country needs to have a minimum of GDP invested in defense, which would be more than Catalonia currently uses on defense on their taxes paid to central government.

you know in English you can say billions where you would say "mil millones?"

I don't know why millon in Spanish = million in English but billon =/= billion... But yeah just thought I'd point out no one would say 61,836 million in English :)

Anyway, glad to see an actual Catalonian, Joim, agree that the idea of "Catalonian identity" is pretty bs and insignificantly different from the Castillian identity. My bad about thinking Catalan was the dominant language. My experience there was from a 4-day visit where no one would talk in Spanish to me :[ everyone wanted English.

p.s. I agree with you mostly, but plz don't refer to muslims as "allahu akbars." That's not even funny.

Oh, yeah, I know about billions, but since we usually talk about thousands of millions, I'm used to it. You probably visited the places with most jerks, in my hometown they will talk to you in whatever language you attempt to talk, or Spanish by default :p And it's in Girona, which is highly independentist part of Catalonia...

Sorry about that, that's how we call here Daesh and I didn't realise it could seem offensive. I'm not really good on knowing what's offensive and what's not!

 

[destinyunknown]

But in here you have to understand the situation in Spain at that moment. People was scared. A dictator had just died, and other members of its party were thinking of taking the power. To prevent another dictator assuming all the power, people all over Spain voted for that Constitution.

Yeah, but its not like they were imposed that Constitution, it was discussed through and through and, in fact, as Bughouse and Joim have said above, Catalonia actually got more benefits than any other region in Spain in that Constitution, because they insisted in that. So it's not like they were scared or anything, the Constitution was as good as it could be for them while being within the realms of logic. So that's why it's hard to feel simpathy for them, because despite being the region with the most advantages in all regards, their politicians keep making pressure to get even more benefits.

Or just recover the taxes sent to the central government. Just as before, you use them to pay for infrastructure and the army which you so much care about. It isn't new spendings for Catalans; they already pay for all of that. As for Spain "lending money" to Catalonia, where do you figure this money comes from? Isn't it just effectively Catalan taxes being reinvested back in Catalonia? Catalans claim to pay more to the central government than they receive back.

Not really, because Catalonia has had advantages with respect to other regions when it comes to taxes for years, and a lot of money has been invested in Catalonia, much more than the one Catalonia pays in taxes. And of course they claim that, or should I say, used to. For the last decade, the main 'motto' the Independentists used in order to claim independence, was that Spain were ''stealing money from Catalonia'' (informal way of saying that they paid more than they received). However, independentists stopped saying this in 2014 after the 'Pujol Case':
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-after-admitting-to-more-than-30-9636343.html (couldn't find many articles, hope it helps enough)

Basically, it was found out that the ones making the money invested from taxes 'disappear' wasn't actually the rest of Spain, but the main ideological leader of independentist Catalonians of the last 40 years.


As for finding a Pro-independence Catalonian that is enough knowledgeable about history and economy to be able to participate on a mildly serious debate, good luck finding one because as of yet I have not been able to.

And I just can't take your muslim fears seriously.

.

Wouldn't you take them if you lived in France? Considering the proximity, I don't think terrorist acts happening on a defenseless country is a hare-brained idea.

y
Anyway, glad to see an actual Catalonian, Joim, agree that the idea of "Catalonian identity" is pretty bs and insignificantly different from the Castillian identity. My bad about thinking Catalan was the dominant language. My experience there was from a 4-day visit where no one would talk in Spanish to me :[ everyone wanted English.

Yeah, there are a lots of jerks, though also nice people. I usually spend a month in Catalonia every summer, and I have found both types, sadly the Catalonian government as well as the media promotes that jerk behaviour.

Examples such as this happen everyday on Catalonian regional media:

Basically, an old woman from Barcelona (who doesn't speak Catalan - something actually common in some parts of Catalonia, especially among the older people), asks the presenter of the show if she can talk in Spanish instead, so that she can understand. The presenter of the show denies her request.


So much respect.

 

[Joim]

There's another thing to note that independentists usually ignore: Catalan politicians have only pursued independence when it's been good for them. Let me explain: CiU, nowadays CDC, has always had congressmen in the general elections. CiU invested José María Aznar as the president of Spain, that is, the PP. Yeah, the very same party who now leads independence made the president of Spain with their vote in congress the lead of the most nation-wide conservative party that is in favour of the unionism of Spain.

You can check that the politicians in Catalonia have only pursued independence when the central government has had anbsolute majority in their rule. Otherwise, central government has won power thanks to the regionalist parties, giving them money in exchange. It's all a matter of interest... So you can see the rise of independence in Catalonia matches with the period in which the central government has been had with absolute majority. Let me assure you that if CDC could still vote in a president and get something in exchange, there would be no independentism like there is today. However, since we have now C's and Podemos, those parties now have the key to the presidency, so the now irrelevant regionalist parties turned against to extreme nationalism to gain power and money from the central state.

 

[Vineon]

This thread is annoyingly one-sided with roughly no one to defend one of the options that's up to debate. If one hasn't by now, I do not expect a pro-independence Catalan person to suddenly appear to even the playing field and no, dsm77773, I don't think you're committed enough to count as one.

Sadly, one-sided arguments and thinly veiled belittling insults will likely remain unanswered. What we're reading here is not what all Catalans believe and we're missing an important part of the whole story. Until that is at least acknowledged, I suppose I'll have to suffer through reading stuff like that:

As for finding a Pro-independence Catalonian that is enough knowledgeable about history and economy to be able to participate on a mildly serious debate, good luck finding one because as of yet I have not been able to.

And I'll answer at least what is directed to me:

Wouldn't you take them if you lived in France? Considering the proximity, I don't think terrorist acts happening on a defenseless country is a hare-brained idea.

I don't think a small country like Catalonia should concern itself all that much with terrorist attacks as the new country would make a nonsensical target to religious extremists. Besides, it isn't the sort of battle you win with tanks and fighter jets anyway.

And no, if I were French, I still wouldn't take threats of muslim takeovers seriously. Are you scared of european muslims?

Yeah, there are a lots of jerks, though also nice people. I usually spend a month in Catalonia every summer, and I have found both types, sadly the Catalonian government as well as the media promotes that jerk behaviour.

Examples such as this happen everyday on Catalonian regional media:

Basically, an old woman from Barcelona (who doesn't speak Catalan - something actually common in some parts of Catalonia, especially among the older people), asks the presenter of the show if she can talk in Spanish instead, so that she can understand. The presenter of the show denies her request.


So much respect.

I'm sorry, she is a jerk because a woman called on a Catalan-language tv program and asked to have her discussion on air in Spanish and was politely denied? Oh, poor victim.

It reminds me of this particular scene from a French movie (scene at 20m35s):

 

[Joim]

Sadly, one-sided arguments and thinly veiled belittling insults will likely remain unanswered. What we're reading here is not what all Catalans believe and we're missing an important part of the whole story. Until that is at least acknowledged,

I didn't know you were a scholar on what Catalans think. Last time I checked the separatists didn't get 50% of the votes, I guess you are ignoring half of those.

I don't think a small country like Catalonia should concern itself all that much with terrorists attacks as the new country would make a nonsensical target to religious extremists. Besides, it isn't the sort of battle you win with tanks and fighter jets anyway.

And no, if I were French, I still wouldn't take threats of muslim takeovers seriously. Are you scared of european muslims?

You need to take defense seriously no matter how small or new a country is. That's why small countries have defense treaties, like Andorra.

I'm sorry, she is a jerk because a woman called on a Catalan-language tv program and asked to have her discussion on air in Spanish and was politely denied? Oh, poor victim.

Yes, both languages are official in the state and TV and the woman didn't talk Catalan. It's rude.

Anyway, I already explained in my first post what the independentists think and why I think they are not right. That's the most you are going to get, as, from my vast experience in the area (I got into politics young, I joined a local party at 18, I've been in touch with Catalan politics for over 10 years), all they can tell you is "Spain steals from us", the number of € Spain supposedly robs from taxes (ignoring what Spain gives back to Catalonia in other means), the unique history (only it's the history of Aragon), the unique language (only it's found in several other Regions and a couple of places in other countries), the unique culture (only it's not), and sovereignty, which is the only argument I agree with, since I think Spain should be a federal state, just like it worked with the Hapsburg. In the end it comes down to "feelings", more or less like a religion.

There's been indoctrination from the schools in the latest 30 years. You can see it clearly if you've grown up in Catalonia or have family there. The youth from 20~ years ago couldn't care less. Nowadays you see young teenagers aged 12 or 13 or even LITTLE KIDS surrounded with independentist flags and it painted on their face. It's preposterous and should be totally illegal to politicise kids like that, alas, they do in the name of freedom. Makes me sick tbh. To add insult to injury, a lot of those independentists are either grandsons, sons of inmigrants, or born out of Catalonia themselves. It's the typical extreme chauvinist to make up for their "lack of blood", a natural response when you want so much to feel integrated and part of a group. As we say in Spain, they become more papist than the pope. Then they insult their own people, thinking themselves above because they're Catalan now.

Of course, to know all of this one has to leave their little town, stop reading shit mass media and travel, see, and learn for oneself. Not something everyone is willing to do. I've visited already most of Spain, traveled a great deal of Catalonia, mainly the north, where I am from, traveled in the most redneck Castillan parts, visited most of the south... In the end, we're all brethren. I really wish that, instead of listening to stupid, greedy, corrupt politicians with their hate agenda to get votes, money, and power; we all just got along and helped eachother become a better country.

 

[Vineon]

No, you can't explain what the other side thinks effectively. You will never be a good spokesperson for people you disagree with, the same as they wouldn't be for you, and you will never lay out their arguments properly. All your involvement in politics tells me is that you couldn't be more biased and your input alone does not help the outside observant make up his mind. I'm not saying your opinions and arguments are invalid, I am saying we're not hearing a proper educated retort from people on the other half. I refuse to believe that is because they cannot do so, as you would have people believe.

TV3 is a Catalonian language broadcaster. If you call on the hotline of one of their shows, it is only natural to be expected to speak the language. That you see the whole thing as an example of abuse and intolerance is quite insane to me.

 

[Joim]

I can, because I've been there once.

Catalonia has three official languages (and I'm pretty sure the host of the show is unable to speak Occitan), all of them can be used in TV3 as it is a regional TV, not a language TV. Language is culture and a means for communication, not a political tool. It's just outright rude to deny the right of communication when you're able to in spite of politics.

 

[Minwu]

I am glad that other nations are recognizing the need for a stronger military force to muscle out foreign invaders. It has worked well for New York City and its' army, the NYPD.

 

[Rugi]

Catalan speakers should not need to switch to Spanish for Spanish speakers to understand. The two languages are mutually intelligible even to somebody who uses Spanish as a second language like myself.

 

[Joim]

Catalan speakers should not need to switch to Spanish for Spanish speakers to understand. The two languages are mutually intelligible even to somebody who uses Spanish as a second language like myself.

lol, just lol.
That's outright a lie. I have spoken in Catalan (actual Catalan from Girona, not """Catalan""" from Barcelona) to Spanish-speaking people from Spain and they didn't understand shit. The languages are as mutually intelligible as Spanish and French or Spanish and Portuguese.

Proof:
Avui vaig a menjar cogombres amb pastanaga.
Hoy voy a comer pepinos con zanahoria.

Edit for further comparison with French, Portuguese, and Italian:
Aujourd'hui, je vais manger des concombres et des carottes.
Hoje vou comer pepinos e cenoura.
Oggi mangerò cetrioli e carote.

Check which languages are closer to which ones...

wow
such intelligible
very same language
much comprehension

 

[Rugi]

if you think about it and listen carefully they can be understood. Portuguese is definetley closer to Spanish but Catalan is still pretty close. the only word I didn't realise from that sentence is pastanga.

They aren't completley mutually intelligible but if you speak Catalan slowly to me I'd porbably grasp the majority of what you're saying.