CBZ -- The Ultimate Counter to Blissey and Special Walls

futuresuperstar

Credit
Most of the credit of this topic goes out to JabbaTheGriffin. He is the one who came up with the basic idea of this set, while I am simply the one who added on the final tidbits and decided to put it to real game use while adding some of the "filler" moves.

The Set
Porygon-Z @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Lonely, Adaptability, 252 Attack / 216 Speed / 40 Sp.Atk
- Double-Edge / Return
- Facade
- Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball / Hidden Power [Fighting] / Hidden Power [Ground]
- Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball / Hidden Power [Fighting] / Hidden Power [Ground]

Discussion
Porygon-Z is known as a monstrous special sweeper with the ability to plow through teams now capable of dealing with it. Its versatility as a choice user and Nasty Plotter make its enemies quiver in fear. However, there are reliable switch-ins to it -- in particular, special walls. Blissey, in particular, can stop most variations and cripple it with Thunder Wave or Sing. I present to you, CBZ -- Choice Band Porygon-Z. CBZ has the potential to completely destroy Blissey, regardless of its set.

With its ability in Adaptability, all normal attacks have a certain "double-STAB" feature. This means that all normal attacks hit with double their normal base power. Double-Edge, for instance, hits with 240 BP, as opposed to its normal 120 BP. Factor in a Choice Band, and you are looking at something that can spell death for Blissey. Most have overlooked Porygon-Z's respectable 80 Base Attack Statistic due to its amazing special attacking capability. Here is a reason not to. Pair this with a special sweeper that an opposing team would normally count on Blissey to stop, and you may have the game stolen already.

Adamant Max Attack Choice Band Adaptability Double-Edge to Blissey is absolutely killer. On average, it takes about 90% of its health -- a OHKO with Stealth Rock or Sandstream in play. I have tried using damage calculators, but nothing takes into account Adaptability with the "double-STAB" effect, so I will add actual damage calculations as soon as I can. Most times, Blissey will switch into Porygon-Z's attack, meaning its a goner even if you do not manage to OHKO it. Return is a second option if you hate recoil, but you lose a lot of power, turning some knock-outs into an extra turn of necessity.

Now, the beauty of this comes in the form of Facade. If the opponent already has Blissey out, and you want to switch in your Porygon-Z, go for it! If it uses Thunder Wave against you, use Facade. Facade is 70 BP. After STAB and Adaptability, it is launched to 140 BP. Now, since you are paralyzed, you manage to get up to 280 BP. A paralyzed Adamant Max Attack Choice Band Adaptability Facade is a OHKO on any spread Blissey carries, as far as I know, and again, I will confirm this as soon as I can get actual damage calculations.

The speed EVs allow it to out-speed Adamant Heracross and all Base 85s with a neutral nature. The rest of the EVs are dumped into special attack.

Now, what about other enemies? To give you an idea of this sucker's power, let me tell you this: Adamant Max Attack Choice Band Adaptability Double-Edge is a 2HKO against Donphan. This thing hits even the physical walls hard. This thing can even threaten a 2HKO against Cresselia, another common switch-in to Porygon-Z, and can still hit it with its amazing Facade even if the duck manages to paralyze it.

The two special attacks are to take care of what resists the normal attacks, as well as to take advantage of Porygon-Z's still very high special attack. Thunderbolt hits all steels, especially Skarmory. Shadow Ball murders the ghosts immune to your normal onslaught, especially Dusknoir. Hidden Power [Fighting] helps cover all rock-types, as well as making sure no Tyranitar or Weavile come in to ruin your fun. Hidden Power [Ground], similarly, takes out the likes of Metagross, Heatran, and Jirachi. The last slot is really all about what you need on your team.

You can also consider Giga Impact. It OHKOs Blissey all of the time and can be used as a last-ditch Hyper Beam. Return is also a viable option but takes away Porygon-Z's ability to take down a lot of special walls, turning some OHKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into 3HKOs.

Life Orb still allows a 2HKO against Blissey and allows you to switch moves, so it deserves mention just for that. However, the loss of power makes Double-Edge a necessity as opposed to Return, and the recoil from the attack, the item, and possible sand storms can really destroy you.

CBZ, the ultimate Lure-in-Blissey-and-knock-the-shit-out-of-it Pokemon. No variation can stop this. Only a Blissey with Counter has even a shot in hell, and that would be only if it was already in when you switched Porygon-Z in *and* predicted that it was using physical attacks, and only if it it hit for minimum damage and there was no stealth rock or sandstream in play. You can even use this little guy to be your switch-in on status effects -- even with burn, you can still 2HKO most Blissey with Facade.

Discuss, and give credit for the idea to Jabba, and credit for the idea of Facade to me ^_^.
 
I want to give damage calculations so badly, but everything I have tried does not factor in the "double-STAB." If anybody can point me in the right direction, I will be happy to supply them.

EDIT: The only thing else available to Porygon-Z is Iron Tail. Admittedly, it can hit Tyranitar and some other rock-types that resist its normal attacks, but their physical defense is often too high to make much of a difference. The rest of its attacks are all special attacks or normal attacks.
 
I still feel like that base 135 SpAtk is going to waste.. At least give it Thunderbolt over Aerial Ace for Skarmory, and maybe even Ice Beam over Sleep Talk for Gliscor. And if it can still be threating to Blissey and friends, Life Orb sounds like it has potential.

Also don't forget that Sleep Talking with Choice Band changed this generation; it only works for the first time, and all Sleep Talks after that will fail!
 
I tried to calculate it and I got:

Adamant 252 Attack (284 stat) Choice Banded 240 base attack vs. Bold Blissey 252 Defense (130 stat) only does 563-663 HP.

And afaik, most Blisseys run at least 688 HP.
 
So, which Stealth Rock, that is a high chance of a OHKO on a max defense Blissey, and a 2HKO in every form of the word. With Sandstream, as well, its a sure-fire OHKO. If it does that much with Double-Edge, you can imagine what a triggered Facade will do.

EDIT: I was not aware that Sleep Talk had changed. You could go ahead and run a Lonely nature and stick Thunderbolt on there in place of Aerial Ace. I am fairly sure that Gliscor is still looking at a 2HKO from Double-Edge, but I could certainly be wrong.
 
Nice to see another set from the guy who came up with GrowthTran!

Can't you do calculations by hand? I know it's tedious, but it's better than nothing.

Hint: IIRC, Adaptibility doubles the attack of all normal attacks, no STAB is factored in if you use Adaptibility.
 
Porygon-Z running a pure physical set is a bit strange, at least put boltbeam on him over sleep talk and Aerial ace. Change it to a different nature naturally. Also, double edge against blissey is effectively an explosion that won't OHKO blissey, I suggest return over it for longevity purposes.
 
Would blissey stay in against porygon-z because your opponent might think your porygon-z has nasty plot, which can always hurt blissey a lot?
 
Well, using Adaptabilty sounds good, but you should really put Download as an option too. If it comes in on something with higher special defense than defense (ie. Blissey), it'll basically come in having a swords dance from the boosts of CB and Download. That would OHKO Blissey for sure and would make up for the average 80 base attack stat. Though 280 BP Facade does sound cool.
 
Double-Edge is important to deal damage to other special walls, though, too, and will take out Blissey a lot when other factors are in play, whereas Return just would not ever manage to do so.
 
For calculations, can't you just don't click on STAB box and do 2x weak instead?

Anyways this is what I got from NB damage calc

D-Edge from 284 Atk vs Max HP / Max Def Blissey: 79 ~ 93% average...so comes short in OHKO...needs sandstorm and Stealth Rock for this

Doubled Facade from 284 Atk vs Max HP / Max Def Blissey: 92 ~ 108% an average OHKO even without sandstream or Stealth Rock, which is nice.

I also agree with Familiar Trainer, it should have Tbolt for Skarmory while still hitting ghosts hard. No need for Ice Beam, since Adaptability Normal already owns ground. With Tbolt from 310 Sp Atk still does more to ghosts and especially Skarmory, making this PZ more of an antiskarmbliss.
 
While it's always good to see someone put the effort into making a thread, your proposed moveset is awful. Yes, it kills Blissey but it is nowhere near as effective against anything else. It is way too overspecialized, especially when you can simply add Double-Edge/Return to a special based set to nail Blissey when she switches in, like the Mixed Sweeper set in the analysis.
 
Kinda like DBZ, huh?

Ok so seriously...return over double-edge will probably save you a ton of HP, but if you used life orb I believe you could get a 2hko on bliss with DE and still have the option of using other moves...namely special ones.
 
Miraculous. I was just 45 minutes ago thinking about a Physical Porygon-Z and viola, there's a thread about it.

Also, I think MetalKid's calculator lets you choose Adaptability for the x2 STAB.
 
What a waste of PorygonZ's special attack. If you really want something to kill Blissey, use a Machamp or something.
 
futuresuperstar said:
So, which Stealth Rock, that is a high chance of a OHKO on a max defense Blissey, and a 2HKO in every form of the word. With Sandstream, as well, its a sure-fire OHKO. If it does that much with Double-Edge, you can imagine what a triggered Facade will do.

EDIT: I was not aware that Sleep Talk had changed. You could go ahead and run a Lonely nature and stick Thunderbolt on there in place of Aerial Ace. I am fairly sure that Gliscor is still looking at a 2HKO from Double-Edge, but I could certainly be wrong.
Click to expand...

You could even use Dark Pulse+HP Fighting instead of BoltBeam. Dark/Fighting is resisted by nothing in the game iirc, which can certainly prove handy. Not to mention Dark Pulse is nice for dealing with defense-oriented Cresselia, and HP Fighting is nice to take out those nasty Tyranitars, who would get a free switch-in otherwise.

Then again, Thunderbolt is nice for Skarmory. It's really a choice of preference, I guess.
 
porygonZ@life orb
252 sp. atk
modest adaptibility
tri atk
sub
nasty plot
filler

nasty plot on switch to bliss, then sub and block sing/Twave, then nasty plot again, then 2HKO. this set would probably work better than a gimick physical PZ. sure the physical set would surprise a bliss, but then what else is the PZ gonna do? it is just gonna get walled and probably won't come in much use the rest of the match since your opponent knows what it is.
EDIT: beat sorta
 
futuresuperstar said:
The point of the set is to surprise Blissey. No Blissey would take on Machamp.
Click to expand...

No blissey should take on a PorygonZ on the switch without knowing it's set. Nasty plot will ruin you. The only way you could possible defeat it is by status. Twave will only hold it off for so long, and sing is very inaccurate. If special PZ can beat up a blissey, which is what you're trying to do. Why would you use a physical one? A smarter player could also scout the set (this is taking a big risk), to check if it's scarf or something.
 
Also thanks to Double-Edge being 50% more powerful than Tri Attack, it actually hits stuff harder than Specs most of the times (when the oppnent's Def and Sp Def is identical)...so CBZ is not actually THAT outrageous. If PZ is to be choiced, I think that CB would make it much harder to wall than Specs.
 
Seems like an ok idea to me, but it sorta comes off as gimmicky. It could work, but what would it do after Blissey dies? The recoil off of Double Edge probably wouldn't let it get much action.
 
THing is, isn't similar to rampardos with Head Smash? It would hurt Blissey to the point of no return, but will Rip it's self apart doing so. pointless to kill your self to destroy 1 wall.

Facae is pretty situational, because. If they do get a chance to Thunderwave, you have a crippled Porygon -Z and with all the damage it does, they have to know it has Cice band, or somthing. They bring in Gengar or somthing, and they set up(lol@gengar setting up), or attack, while you have to switch.

Not saying this set is bad, ut most of it takes great prediction, and basically gives up Porygon to kill Blissey.
 
Yeah, this is not just a gimmick set. With the changes just recently made, it still can hurt a ton, especially with the choices of special attacks. All normal resists have no chance -- between Thunderbolt, Hidden Power [Fighting], and Ice Beam, most of your normal-resist stuff you would send out has little chance, while Double-Edge hits shit hard. On top of everything else, it can absorb any status except for sleep. It has special attacks to get around burn and Facade to take advantage of poison and paralysis to smack shit around at 280 BP.

I have found that a "crippled" Porygon-Z still manages to usually smack shit at least once more beyond Blissey. Also, even if this thing completely dies after taking down Blissey -- it served its purpose. Now it is 5-5. You lost a random special sweeper, they lost their special wall. Pair this with another late-game special sweeper and watch as they have no counter anymore. Also, this thing hits everything hard. Donphan, a premier physical wall, is 2HKO by Double-Edge. Who needs Ice Beam? Hippowdon, Gliscor, all fear Ice Beam, and even without it, still take an assload from Double-Edge. Steel and rock-types all die to Thunderbolt and Hidden Power [Fighting].

Honestly, I would combine this sucker with a great special sweeper like Azelf or Alakazam, put wish support on my team to help CBZ switch in more often and help the recoil damage, and just set my sails. No Blissey can stop this thing -- that is the point of the set. And, it can do more than its original point. Yes, it probably will not sweep teams like it potentially could if the opposite team had no special wall. But, so what? That is not the point of this set.
 
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