Celebi (Analysis) [QC 0/3]

Slash Perish Song with HP Fire, U-Turn is too usefull on Celebi as badabing said it above. Thunder Wave isn't really usefull on Celebi.
 

Pocket

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I'm confused why the "mixed" spread for defensive Celebi? 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe should be the main spread and 220 Def @ Bold Nature in AC.

EDIT: what ginganinja said.
 

ginganinja

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I can't say I agree with two defensive sets. Same moves, item, similar spread, but opposite stat... Just doesn't seem like it would be worth a whole other set.
QC have discussed this at length, both in this thread and on IRC and we all agree that Specially Defensive and "Physically" Defensive stay on as two different sets. Both sets were seperate in the old analysis, and in my mind, nothing has changed significantly to result in the 2 sets being combined. They check very different things, and therefore are different sets. We already have a precedent for this, Specially Defensive and Physically Defensive Skarmory both work in the same way, they have the same moves, and yet both sets check different things and are separate sets. This is no different.

Please add a specially defensive set, this is non-negotiable. Use PKs post as a base line for moves and such-like.
 

ginganinja

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Whats going on with this? Please make the changes QC have suggested so we can approve this analysis. If you are no longer working on this please inform us so we can pass it on to a new author
 
[SET]
name: Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Earth Power / Psychic / Recover
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Giga / Hp Fire / Epower isn't that good since you're totally walled by Dragonite and Gengar can switch on it easily. In my opinion, Nasty Plot / Giga Drain / Earth Power / Psychic or Hidden Power Ice for Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Latias, Latios. Hidden Power fire is more usefull when you're running Recover. Psychic +2 does 60% to Skarmory and Earth Power does maybe the same thing and even more to Scizor without investment in SpD.
 

jc104

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I'm not wholly sure what the slashes should be on Nasty Plot celebi, but I'm certain not happy with the way they are now. Although I've only used NP Celebi in a few matches since the introduction of Genesect, prior to that introduction Hidden Power Ice or Psychic was, for me, a necessity on a Nasty Plot celebi set. Being walled by every Dragon and almost every Flying-type in OU is not remotely acceptable. For me, Hidden Power Ice was the single best coverage move Celebi could use - it hits Salamence, Dragonite, Hydreigon, Landorus, Latios, Latias, and opposing Celebi significantly harder than Psychic, while Psychic would hit most targets reasonably, and also provide a very nice hit on Amoonguss, Gengar and Conkeldurr.

Prior to the introduction of Genesect, I would have the slashes listed as follows:

Nasty Plot
Giga Drain
Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
Earth Power / Psychic / Recover

Obviously, Genesect's introduction would rather change things, encouraging the use of Hidden Power Fire to OHKO it on the switch, rather than to deal around 50% with a Life Orb Earth Power and rather less with Leftovers. Speaking of items, you don't have one on that set at the moment. Leftovers / Life Orb for me.

edit: split the defensive sets please. Non-negotiable as said before.
 
Earth Power still does good damage and most of the time, Genesect is Scarfed so it doesn't care about HP Fire and U-Turns.

Nasty Plot
Giga Drain
Hp Ice / Hp Fire
Earth Power / Psychic / Recover

it sounds good for me even though Earth Power, if Celebi doesn't carry recover, is like a "must have" imo.
 

AccidentalGreed

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I would recommend lowering the Speed EVs down a bit for Timid Nasty Plot Celebi, since, while extra HP EVs may seem insignificant, it's still a pivot against odd resisted attacks, and should invest in some Speed to outrun a popular margin. When investing in HP, the Timid nature is probably best in this case, since Celebi won't require an insane amount of Speed to outrun the likes of Jolly Mamoswine, or even Modest Hydreigon, and can thus invest in HP significantly.

For Jolly Mamoswine, Celebi can use 154 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe (when using Fire), while for Modest Hydreigon, 112 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe is required (in which case you shouldn't be using HP Fire because you ruin your chances of getting past Dragons). You may also extend the EVs so that Celebi can outrun Jolly Landorus (relatively rare) or neutral-natured base 100 Pokemon (not too far off from Hydreigon).

Other than Jirachi and Jolly Darmanitan and the rare Expert Belt Genesect, I don't think there's much worth outspeeding with Timid and 252 Spe EVs. Just my thoughts. You may also consider the Modest nature for more overall power, but you'll end up investing more in Speed and less in HP.
 

jc104

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AG, are you suggesting using those spreads with timid? That would be horribly inefficient. You could have greater or equal stats in every area by using a Modest nature.

Also, I think if using HP Fire, Naive/Hasty Genesect might be worth outrunning (ie max speed). Mild / Rash Genesect and Adamant Haxorus should be considered too if running a slower spread.
 
NastyPlot Celebi isn't a pivot, it's a sweeper. It's a pivot with recover, and with recover you have to use a bulky spread.
 

AccidentalGreed

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Ah. Forgive me. I was under the impression of the vice-versa, but yes, I can see now that the Modest nature is indeed more efficient if we're running a mixed HP / SpA / Spe spread. In this case, a spread of 166 HP / 148 SpA / 196 Spe with a Modest nature not only outruns Mamoswine and achieves the same spA as max Timid Celebi, but also achieves more HP EVs than the Timid spread I posted (154 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe).

In any case, please consider adding HP EVs + the Modest nature, but not as ridiculously slow as 36 Spe.

Also, Ojama, I would hardly call Nasty Plot + Recover a solid sweeper, given the amount of coverage Celebi would die for in two slots.
 

jc104

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I must admit that I haven't ever used a fast spread on NP Celebi - I rarely use it on Celebi and I'm not wholly sure I need to. Celebi is a really useful member of the team defensively, and that's basically why you use it. Celebi is quite clearly not the most threatening sweeper out there.

I'd seriously just use 0 Speed or 16 for Adamant Breloom, 32 Speed actually being fairly pointless (it doesn't matter against jirachi, jolly ttar is non-existent). edit: or 20 for timid magnezone.
 
I didn't say nasty plot + recover was a sweeper but a "pivot". It's like a bulky sweeper if you want. Nasty Plot + Recover has to be used with a bulky spread.
 

jc104

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I just received a PM from Jelly0s saying that he no longer has time to do this. He was quite apologetic.

To whoever is taking this over: we are no longer sure that there need to be two defensive sets. Specially defensive should definitely have its own set, while physically defensive is somewhat questionable in the current metagame.
 
I can take this over, if you want it. Not sure if i'd be very active next week, but ill try to finish this at the end of the week. Tell me what do i have to do. (do i post a new thread ?)
 

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