Chandelure

[Dogma]

Scizor's inability to switch out actually kinda wrecks the whole hypothetical, and even if it didn't, you're presuming no sub, no CMs, that the opponent won't predict the switch and lead with HP Fighting, etc.

well the reason i presume no sub and CM is because we can sit here all day saying if X had this and that then it kills Y
cuz then i could just say if Y has this and that it kills X.
i.e bulky ttar with chople berry in a SS.

but i really think ttar is actually a good partner with Shandera.
what i also like is that the opponent will have to deal with a powerful physical attacker then a powerful special attacker

 

[Elfam]

Scizor's inability to switch out actually kinda wrecks the whole hypothetical, and even if it didn't, you're presuming no sub, no CMs, that the opponent won't predict the switch and lead with HP Fighting, etc.

yeah thats why i feel theorymoning is ineffective(i do it cause i enjoy talking about it) there are always large quantities of hypotheticals and there are a lot of time things that we can bare even think to count as a variable. but still... i feel like he will one of tyranitars most helpful allies because he can take out scizor and any other threatening pokemon

i think having superpower on ddance tyranitar w/superpower and shanderaa cm nitro charge shanderaa would make a viscous combo. (however ive also thinking water needs to be gone and i like jolteon for the idea of baton passin magnet rise so shanderaa wont be destroyed and can set up on ground moves)

Obvious pitfall is lack of ressistance to ground attacks so at most itll be a fun team to play around with

 

[MapleSandwich]

Shanderaa is a great partner for Tyranitar, Garchomp, Victini, or anything that has problems breaking through Steel types/Burungeru. Shed Shell will be all over Nattorei for sure, and there are a lot of other Pokemon that can be revenged without recourse by Scarf Shanderaa unless they have Shed Shell. Pursuit Tyranitar is the only real way to prevent being screwed over by this thing, since otherwise it has an easy time dealing with most Dark types thanks to base 145 SpAtk, STAB Fire Blasts that heavily dent most of them before they can get to act.

This is one of those Pokemon that has the movepool, ability, and stats to define the metagame, for sure, but as the meta develops, the easy targets will start carrying Shed Shell, and it will have a far harder time netting free kills, so it probably won't be uber-broken material.

 

[Dogma]

yeah thats why i feel theorymoning is ineffective(i do it cause i enjoy talking about it) there are always large quantities of hypotheticals and there are a lot of time things that we can bare even think to count as a variable. but still... i feel like he will one of tyranitars most helpful allies because he can take out scizor and any other threatening pokemon

yea im bad a theorymoning but it gives us something to do until SB 2 comes out.

and yea thats why i think Shandera is not only a montser on its own, but it greatly supports ttar which is equally dangerous.

but what is a pokemon that can support shandera like how shandera can support ttar?

 

[Elfam]

honestly shanderaa only fails because of his speed... he will have to be scarfed to get strategic kills that would wall a sd outrage if paired with dragons which he probably will be just as much as ttar who is the most awesome pokemon imo, but the fact that your opponent knows you have shanderaa more than likely makes shadow tag set up impossible. im betting on strategic killing shanderaa
Ex:@ Choice Scarf
Ability: shadow tag
Timid - 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~Fire blast/Flamethrower/overheat
~shadow ball
~energy ball
~HP fighting 70

Note: a cool shanderaa trick could be jolteon passing speed or magnet rise especially if opponent is locked into choiced earthquake
ex: jolteon with quick feet and burn orb vs flygon(he saw your team and if you dont have any flyers eq is a safe bet) and i would like to have a balloon on jolt.
turn 1: you use agility flygon used eq
turn 2: you use magnet rise flygon used eq
turn 3: you sub up expecting a switch and if he doesnt your golden(and against a moron) but you can always pass that speed boost and temp immunity to shanderaa who also gets a sub.

main problem is lack of realistic application of this scenario

 

[Bombkirby]

honestly shanderaa only fails because of his speed... he will have to be scarfed to get strategic kills that would wall a sd outrage if paired with dragons which he probably will be just as much as ttar who is the most awesome pokemon imo, but the fact that your opponent knows you have shanderaa more than likely makes shadow tag set up impossible. im betting on strategic killing shanderaa
Ex:@ Choice Scarf
Ability: shadow tag
Timid - 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~Fire blast/Flamethrower/overheat
~shadow ball
~energy ball
~HP fighting 70

Whats wrong with his speed? Since he has shadow tag he can pick and choose his battles and then get the heck out of there when something that outclasses him appears.

On another note, I guess pairing him with bulky pokemon that resist his weaknesses would be a good idea since you probably are gonna be switching a lot.

 

[Elfam]

Whats wrong with his speed? Since he has shadow tag he can pick and choose his battles and then get the heck out of there when something that outclasses him appears.

On another note, I guess pairing him with bulky pokemon that resist his weaknesses would be a good idea since you probably are gonna be switching a lot.

well his speed is god awful if your trying to do a sweep. honestly if a base 80 speed pokemon without a speed boost swept me id be ashamed

also he needs rs support because losing 25% on a switch definitely timits his uses

 

[jwoozie]

While theorymonning in the shower I thought Bronzong would be a pretty good partner to our new ghost buddy. Bronzong synergizes very well with him and if you show Shnderaa early in the match, net a kill then get him out of there your opponent will be cautious about using resisted moves so he doesn't get another chance to switch in. They may start throwing EQs and Stone Edges around like crazy giving Bronzong plenty of switchins. I was thinking that an Offensive Trick Room Zong would best be able to take advantage of these opportunities and be able to soften up your teams core with incredibly slow Gyro Balls, Earthquakes and an Explosion.

EDIT:
And the thing about OTR Bronzong is that it's very self-sufficient. You don't need to run a full TR team to take advantage of it because it's got the bulk to stay in 5 turns and do what it needs to do.

 

[Elfam]

While theorymonning in the shower I thought Bronzong would be a pretty good partner to our new ghost buddy. Bronzong synergizes very well with him and if you show Shnderaa early in the match, net a kill then get him out of there your opponent will be cautious about using resisted moves so he doesn't get another chance to switch in. They may start throwing EQs and Stone Edges around like crazy giving Bronzong plenty of switchins. I was thinking that an Offensive Trick Room Zong would best be able to take advantage of these opportunities and be able to soften up your teams core with incredibly slow Gyro Balls, Earthquakes and an Explosion.

yeah like this idea a lot... maybe even making a shanderaa that utilizes trick room(posted early but no responses)

 

[Bombkirby]

well his speed is god awful if your trying to do a sweep. honestly if a base 80 speed pokemon without a speed boost swept me id be ashamed

also need rs support

Personally I wouldn't sweep with a shadow tagger. I'd send him out when the opponent throws out a pokemon he can beat no problem, then I'd hide him away until its safe to come out again.

Edit: Oh I see what why my strategy doesn't make sense...SR...as usual. I forget about that because my close friends and I ignore SR when battling each other. In a true match you'd need to sweep, none of this switching garbage.

 

[RocketSurgery]

yeah like this idea a lot... maybe even making a shanderaa that utilizes trick room(posted early but no responses)

A big problem with a trick room shandera is that Ttar and Heatran, its biggest threats, have a lower base speed. If shandera becomes too popular people could easily just invest less in Ttar and Heatran's speed, and they'll outspeed shandera in trick room.

Tested Nitro Charge. First use didn't raise anything. Pretty positive it's a % increase, not guaranteed.

I seem to remember hearing that the chance of increase is pretty high; it would be nice if we could get the actual rate. The move thread only says it "may raise speed". In any case, if the foe is trapped and can't touch you, you can just keep nitro charging until you do max out your speed. (which won't work if there's a time limit on the battle).

but substitute pretty much still guarauntees that kill on ditto... still a stab super effective shadow ball will decimate anything.

Yeah, I was assuming an no-sub nitro charge shandera, because If shandera has sub but no speed boost then a revenge killer just needs to be able to take a hit and break the sub first turn, then kill on the next turn (probably with pursuit in case shandera tries to switch out).

If they sent a pursuiter out while Shanderaa had a sub up couldn't you switch out and let the sub take the Pursuit damage?

(from below)

Sure, if they use pursuit on the first turn after they switch in, but if the revenge killer doesn't use a choice item, they can just use a different strong move to break the sub if shandera stays in and pursuit next turn or hit whatever switches in with a strong move if shandera tries to switch out.

 

[backlot]

If they sent a pursuiter out while Shanderaa had a sub up couldn't you switch out and let the sub take the Pursuit damage?

 

[millz]

this thing looks awesome but i have a feeling that he will go to ubers. such a shame since i always wanted a fire/ghost type

 

[Kindrindra]

I was pondering a way to make Shanderaa faster, when I thought of something.

What about having a SubBoost Ninjask pass to them?

 

[Elfam]

ninjask doesnt work(on good players)
ex my common strategy is 1st turn stealth rocks then go to vap for roar.... soon as comes back in anything will kill it... maybe even raor again for good measure

ninjask is too obvious of a passer... think zapdos will do nicely. he has 2 weaknesses . one shanderaa resists and the other he is owned by.(or maybe blaziken if we had dw abilities to breed)

Yeah, I was assuming an no-sub nitro charge shandera, because If shandera has sub but no speed boost then a revenge killer just needs to be able to take a hit and break the sub first turn, then kill on the next turn (probably with pursuit in case shandera tries to switch out).

lol dont think that exists. must be faster than shanderaa(or priority), huge spec def to survive highly boosted attacks and kill shanderaa effortlesly... best bet is uturning into a fodder pokemon(mean electric uturn move)

 

[Snoopy]

Shanderaa looks like its a great pokemon, but when you look closely in it you realise that it has its weak spots. Shadow Tag looks great and all and can score a kill or two, but when your opponent switches in something like a Tyranitar(Or any other Dark type that doesn't suck) you're gonna eat a Crunch or Pursuit if you try to switch out and lose lots of damage or get OHKO'd, unless you set up a Sub which will likely break anyway.

This pokemon also really looks like Porygon-Z all over again, I think they have around the same defenses(60/90/90 vs 85/70/75) and it has a lower Speed, granted it has Shadow Tag, but if it turns out to be too broken they'll most likely ban the ability ala Latias and Soul Dew(Before the banning of Latias alltogether)

One of the best counters I can think for this pokemon is Houndoom(Aside from TTar obviously), as he resists Shandera's Ghost STAB and is immune to Fire, outspeeds Shandera and can deal lots of damage with a Dark Pulse or catch it with a Pursuit(Base 90 Attack is by no means bad, and a STAB Super Effective Pursuit will hurt from it), not to mention that the only way Shandera can effectively hurt Houndoom is with a HP Fighting/Ground. But sadly Houndoom is iffy at best in OU so it probably won't get much use there. It can also be killed by other strong Dark types like Honchkrow, and the upcoming Sazando(Spell? | Dark/Dragon Hydra) and Zoroark. Although its high unlikely but I wouldn't be surprised if I see this go the same route Rhyperior and Porygon-Z went through in Gen 4.

 

[RocketSurgery]

lol dont think that exists. must be faster than shanderaa(or priority), huge spec def to survive highly boosted attacks and kill shanderaa effortlesly... best bet is uturning into a fodder pokemon(mean electric uturn move)

Anything that gets in and lives is likely going to hit Shandera with physical moves, so the SpDef boost won't matter too much in that case.

A possible pokemon to bring in would be magic-guard alakazam with a focus sash. Using psycho shock, which calculates damage using the defense stat, it breaks the sub, shandera takes alakazam down to its sash, and then shandera is forced to switch or die on the next turn. (and of course magic guard prevents stealth rock from breaking the sash). The only real trick to this is forcing shandera to stay in.

Of course, the easiest way to stop all of this is do what's been suggested already and be smart and not use choiced fighting or normal attacks and put shed shell on anything you're worried about being trapped and set up on, especially since you'll know ahead of time if there's a shandera or not. If you see your foe has a shandera and you use a choiced fighting or normal attack and get set up on, you pretty much deserved the loss.

 

[Lunanight]

scarf Shanderaa will be more powerful then scarftran, nuff said.

looks like we have a very powerful check to blissey as with the choice specs, it can trap blissey with shadow tag and then procced to 2HKO blissey.

god knows what it would do to lugia and giratina...

i have though of some terminology for it:
scarf shanderaa = ScarfDeraa
specs shanderaa = SpecsDeraa
shanderaa + ononokusu used together to break walls = ShandKusu (SkarmBliss sounds a lot better)

 

[KokoaKiwi]

All in all, I can just say I hope this WONT get banned, because I loved him since before we knew about Shadow Tag. I usually hate going for tiers and competitively use stuff I like. >_> And Shanderaa is hands down the only ghost I like in the game, as well as my favourite gen V poke, so..yeah.

 

[Elfam]

@rosket surgery= yes admittedly that would probably work but at some point you just gotta round up... 1 pokemon and 99% of another is ok because id usually have a uturner ready anyway. so despite the fact that that would work i think that specifying specific pokemon for that situation is unwise.. for instance i could say fine i've baton passed 3 acc boost and am going to use purgatory on you... ta dah. Point being we can almost always win a hypothetical competition(P.S. who else just wants to use purgatory just cause it sounds like the sweetest move ever)

@lunaknight yes that sums up the arguement of will shanderaa be a let down... already better then heatran so of course hes not rhyperior. Also i feel like it is too early to be naming the sets(i want translated name first) plus i like shanderaa so kewler names than half of this name and that would be better.

@kokoakiwi how can you not like other ghosts??? gengar subsplitting owns as does rotom back when it had its sweet typing... even dusknoir is awesome if its used right. Plus its my favorite typing so u have made uself a rather insignificant enemy... hey id even use the pringles and still own you(fyi love drifblim too and when he has been power tricked he is an unstoppable physical wall) Banette is useless though same with sableye

 

[Elfam]

A big problem with a trick room shandera is that Ttar and Heatran, its biggest threats, have a lower base speed. If shandera becomes too popular people could easily just invest less in Ttar and Heatran's speed, and they'll outspeed shandera in trick room.

tyranitar could be an issue. fighting heatran will prob be easier. heatran to be negative nature and little ivs in speed. a drop i find it hard to beleive ppl would specialize but ttar could be different. a bulky set with no 27 speed iv investment neutral nature so yeah i can see that part happening.... worse case scenerio i can always add a slowing item (never decided on a item anyway).

keep in mind also the fact that specialization is against the idea of successful pokemon teams. if you specifically slow down heatran for a single pokemon your not going to be using it for shoddy. you have to be able to handle a wide variety of pokemon and slowing something down (also if you really want to screw with someones head you just lower shanderaa to lvl99.)

would like to know a better scenerio of how tr shandera could go wrong (for comparisons sake shanderaa's lowest speed gets it down to approximately 56 base speed with 31 IVs plus neutral speed nature

 

[Elfam]

Theoretical trick room shanderaa

Shanderaa/ Dante
Quiet 31/31/30/30/30/0 EVs(240 Hp, 18 Def, 252 SpAtt)
items in order i think are most useful
Ability:Shadow Tag@ Leftovers/ Macho Brace/ Petaya Berry
moves in order of importance
-- Calm Mind
--Trick Room
--Hp Fighting 64
--Shadow Ball
Stats:Hp321, Att:146, Def:219, SpAtt:427, SpDef:215, Spd:148
Not sure which attacks to use though... hp only gets up to 64 thought about fighting and shadow ball, but not sure how that does in the grand scheme of the battle. i checked the numbers and it does 79.3% - 93.3% to max def blissey, but this requires max set up... just to give you some numbers. thought maybe needed to get stab over 64 super-effective hits because they arents as good as neutral flamethrower and definitely not fire blast, but ttar deserves to be killed that badly

Anyone have any other kewl Ideas?

 

[RocketSurgery]

Theoretical trick room shanderaa

Shanderaa/ Dante
Quiet 31/31/30/30/30/0 EVs(240 Hp, 18 Def, 252 SpAtt)
items in order i think are most useful
Ability:Shadow Tag@ Leftovers/ Macho Brace/ Petaya Berry
moves in order of importance
-- Calm Mind
--Trick Room
--Hp Fighting 64
--Shadow Ball
Stats:Hp321, Att:146, Def:219, SpAtt:427, SpDef:215, Spd:148
Not sure which attacks to use though... hp only gets up to 64 thought about fighting and shadow ball, but not sure how that does in the grand scheme of the battle. i checked the numbers and it does 79.3% - 93.3% to max def blissey, but this requires max set up... just to give you some numbers. thought maybe needed to get stab over 64 super-effective hits because they arents as good as neutral flamethrower and definitely not fire blast, but ttar deserves to be killed that badly

Anyone have any other kewl Ideas?

One weakness this has could be sucker punch. If a strong enough sucker punch user comes in, it could feasibly take out Shandera, as there's no sub for protection.

Spiritomb gets both sucker punch and pursuit. Given the IVs and EVs listed in your set, the smogon damage calc gives an adamant spiritomb with 31/252 attack IV/EV only a 76.6% - 90.3% damage range. So, it survives that.

Honchkrow also learns both. Changing only spiritomb to honchkrow in the above calculation gives 94.1% - 110.9%. Honchkrow's base attack is 125, so it'll be hard to beat that plus STAB.

If there are any stealth rocks or spikes on the field or if Shandera took any damage, it could be revenge killed. Of course, it might also be killed by regular attackers who are slower, but I just wanted to check out the sucker punch weakness. Also keep in mind that I assumed the attacker had basically maxed out its attack stat, so if BW's damage formula is the same or close to DP's, then this Shandera looks like it could easily take hits and knock off 2 or more pokemon.



Anywho, another possibility I thought of is to make use of curse. With Shadow tag, Shandera doesn't need to use mean look to keep the cursed foe in. Maybe something like

Shandera@Chesto Berry
Shadow Tag
-Curse
-Rest
-Protect
-HP Fighting/Ground

or

Shandera@Leftovers
Shadow Tag
-Curse
-Pain Split
-Protect
-HP Fighting/Ground

Trap something that won't be able hurt you much, then curse. Either pain split to heal from the trapped foe before it dies or rest it off, protecting as necessary. HP fighting for Ttar or Heatran which come in to try to kill you. For Heatran you could probably switch out, but for Ttar, if it's not a variety that's faster than you, you can hit it with HP fighting to either not it out or do a good amount of damage before it pursuits you to death.

 

[KokoaKiwi]

Many of Shanderaa's counters are really unexpected, actually. Honchkrow, Tyranitar, Houndoom, Ditto, Scarfchomp, or Rain Dance abusers. Shanderaa is mildly easy to revenge, imho, but I still can't deny it's a guaranteed kill with Shadow Tag.
Without Flas Fire, I can see Shanderaa becoming a Heatran with less bulk and more offensive capabilities. I know I will be using Flash Fire, so people won't ragequit or call it broken in Wi Fi. :3

 

[XxSaiyanxLordxX]

This thing can be very broken with a simple choice scarf w/shadow tag set, snorlax can counter it pretty effectively however as EQ is a OHKO and with thick fat, both stab moves are resisted, forcing shandeera to resort to focus blast if it can learn it.

Other than that the only other way is to put out a pokemon on your team that is obviously countered and easily killed by shandeera(you will know if they have it because you can see opponents team at the beginning of the battle), hope your opponent will take the bait and switch while you make a double switch to something that can take shandeera out (Pursuit is OHKO from alot of pokes).

I know it's early to make this kind of a judgement but this thing looks fearsome especially paired with droughttales.