My bad. Also, seconded. The one and only time I managed a clean sweep using Shandera was thanks to nitro charge (and let's face it, that guy wasnt too good). Shandera has way too many issues to be called 'uber'. Weather teams were very prominent, too. Shandera becomes pretty much a deadweight in sand/rain, too. Even at +6/+6 behind a sub.
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Chandelure
- Thread starter tennisace
- Start date
Have you tried Shanderaa with Erufuun?
Encore a set up move -> Switch to Shanderaa?
Might be too predictable :/
Ehh,she'll probably end up in BL,I'll still use her though.
Encore a set up move -> Switch to Shanderaa?
Might be too predictable :/
Ehh,she'll probably end up in BL,I'll still use her though.
Yes, I tried it way too much times, but always failed miserably. Why? Because every decent players switches out after being encored. People who baww about Erufuun are mainly idiots who try to set up against it.
Then again, just u-turn erufuun, Shandy comes in, and your opponent goes to an actual counter.
This isn't exactly viable, but it's shandera's only way to attempt to set up.
Then again, just u-turn erufuun, Shandy comes in, and your opponent goes to an actual counter.
This isn't exactly viable, but it's shandera's only way to attempt to set up.
Stop this shit. Shadow Tag's utter failure has been overkill explained. Even with Shadow Tag, shandera isn't a top tier ou pokemon, for a shitton of reasons. Most of us got a chance to test her, and were underwhelmed as fuck.
Player X switched in Scizor!
Player Y's Mamoswine used Ice Shard! (it does crap)
Player Y switched in Shanderaa!
Player X's Scizor used Bullet Punch! (it does crap)
Player Y switched in Doryuuzu!
Player X's Scizor used Bullet Punch! (it does crap)
Player Y's Doryuuzu used Swords Dance!
Granted, in this particular scenario, Magnezone would work, too, but you get the point. Shadow Tag is basically a suspect for the Support characteristic, no matter how you look at it.
1:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jzc0W-VC3k&feature=related exactly what you SHOULDNT do with Shan.
In the end, as long as Shandera is not banned, I couldnt care less. Personally, I'd pick flash fire over shadow tag any day.
I don't Shandera is "broken" although shadowtag is a key part of Shadera being effective. For example if I am running a spikestacking team if I can trap and kill your spinner then its going to be much harder for you to win. Take a common Shandera/Skarmory core. Skarmory can handles the Mole, sets up Spikes and when used in conjunction with Shandera, I can kill your spinner thus keeping those hazards on the field. I am not suggesting its uber but I doubt its as underwelming as people suggest it is. Personally I think its main strength is taking out one pokemon very easily. Take Salamence for example, It will have its fair share of counters/checks but your average team might 1 solid counter for Salamence (say CS Jirachi).
Before Shandera, you could bring in your Jirachi no probs, Ice Punch and if salamence switched out then you can sve your Jirachi to handle Salamence later. However with Shandera you do not have this luxery. Your opponent can double switch, trap your counter, kill it and then congrats, your Salamence check is gone. I am not saying that you then auto lose but remember that Shandera is excellent at taking out pokemon B that you usually preventing Pokemon A from sweeping.
Remember that it was something similar that probably pushed Salamence to uber under the support characteristic.
Before Shandera, you could bring in your Jirachi no probs, Ice Punch and if salamence switched out then you can sve your Jirachi to handle Salamence later. However with Shandera you do not have this luxery. Your opponent can double switch, trap your counter, kill it and then congrats, your Salamence check is gone. I am not saying that you then auto lose but remember that Shandera is excellent at taking out pokemon B that you usually preventing Pokemon A from sweeping.
Remember that it was something similar that probably pushed Salamence to uber under the support characteristic.
While a direct comparison from Gen 4 to Gen 5 is at least partly inaccurate, let's look at 4th Gen's Ubers. Most of them have either absurdly high stats or the near-perfect arrangement of stats that break the metagame (Chomp and its troll speed being a big one here). Then there's Wynaut and Wobbuffet, who have mediocre stats (except HP) and Shadow Tag. Even in Ubers, Wobbuffet is still one of the most dangerous Pokemon there, thanks to being literally uncounterable because of Shadow Tag and letting anything on the Wobb's user's team set up in complete safety.
Now take the ability which broke a joke character, and give it to a Pokemon with 145 SpA, multiple immunities and Calm Mind.
Yeah.
Now take the ability which broke a joke character, and give it to a Pokemon with 145 SpA, multiple immunities and Calm Mind.
Yeah.
2:26 That same person was going to use Sword of Mystery on a Pokemon that's 4x resistant to it. Bad battlers are bad.
Edit: Every time I've faced Wobbufet in Ubers, I've just pounded away at it and it usually ends up using Counter/Mirror Coat and getting only 1 kill (possibly 2 with Custap). You should never try to set up on Wobuufet, just hit it with whatever attack your Pokmeon has (or Toxic).
So somebody screws up with Shanderaa, proving it's absolute junk? What? What sane person would leave Shanderaa in on an SD Poke that poses a threat to it, unless there was literally nothing they could do?
Yet another one who clearly didnt test Shandera.
Oh and, it's just 2 immunities. Normal type moves aren't even common, only stealth rocks, surf, stone edge, and earthaquake. How do you expect to live? Predict a Shandera switch in (hint: it's fucking easy) and OHKO back.
Anyway, I'm done repeating the exact same argument to multiple people who are just guessing without having even tested her. Read the damn thread, everyone who tested her shared experiences here. Page 11 (I think it was) has the counters. Yes, counters, even with shadow tag.
Edit: page 9 has my counters list. Tested her for more than 200 battles. Calm mind / sub / nitro charge and choice sets, both with shadow tag AND flash fire.
Erufuun + Shanderaa = free set up on basically anything (and Erufuun is actually useful, too).
Finally some sanity. I love you.
It's a reverse dugtrio, actually. Shit speed, massive special attack. Trades claw sharpen for calm mind.
Then again, Shadow Tag shandy doesnt even exist. I wonder why are the mods allowing this discussion, even when there's already a Shadow Tag thread.
Why are you trying to set up with Shanderaa? Just slap a Choice Scarf on it, come in after a kill, from a U-turn, or from an easily predictable attack that Shanderaa resists/is immune to and get atleast one kill per game. Tyranitar will often come in and Pursuit you immediately but you still get 1 for 1 and can easily set up on that Tyranitar.
Shanderaa isn't the Pokemon everyone expected it to be, but it's still a damn good support Pokemon that can easily trap and kill any Pokemon that's weak to Fire or Ghost and not insanely fast.
Shanderaa isn't the Pokemon everyone expected it to be, but it's still a damn good support Pokemon that can easily trap and kill any Pokemon that's weak to Fire or Ghost and not insanely fast.
Calm Mind + Shadow Tag was the first thing caught out attention, so naturally I tried it. After many, many battles I decided to use a Scarf set which didnt quite work because of Tyranitar revenge killing everywhere. But yes, I see your point (setting up on Tar, 1 for 1, etc). Im not gonna argue with that.
The other issue I had with Scarf Shandy was that ever base 80 with a +speed nature and a scarf means gg for Shandy. Since it's a brand new metagame it's not so easy to predict random scarves, to my defense.
Anyway, g'night. I'm going to bed now. Someone, please, stop the "olol uber shandera" outrage while I'm gone.
The other issue I had with Scarf Shandy was that ever base 80 with a +speed nature and a scarf means gg for Shandy. Since it's a brand new metagame it's not so easy to predict random scarves, to my defense.
Anyway, g'night. I'm going to bed now. Someone, please, stop the "olol uber shandera" outrage while I'm gone.
Sure, you can concoct theoretical scenarios in which Shandera sets up and sweeps, helps a teammate set up and sweep, revenge kills two or three foes, etc., etc., but they carry about as much weight as the bad shandera play in the youtube video posted (less, even, since at least that was a real battle). I could just as easily concoct scenarios in which the foe mops the floor with Shandera all day.
To make any meaningful statement about shandera's potential in the metagame, there needs to be a metagame. You can't consider just a few pokemon and think you've got shandera pegged (or even a definite suspect for being pegged). The metagame is a complex system and you can't figure out part of that system by cherry-picking a subset of it for your analysis.
For all you know the metagame will evolve such that choice band scizor rarely gets used (maybe because it's set up bait for ST shandera, or maybe for other reasons). In that case, your scenario doesn't hold much water. Yeah, it could happen, but unless it or very similar scenarios happen much more frequently than 1 in ten battles or so, it really isn't all that significant.
You could very well be right that ST shandera ends up a candidate for suspect testing, but it could just as well end up reasonably balanced. Only time, and testing, will tell. In the meantime, all this theorymoning is just a waste of time and breath (or some digital, non-spoken equivalent).
...especially if ST Shandera never gets released.
Admittedly Shandy's typing is problematic, but it still has key resists and immunities - it can't be burned (sort of an immunity, but eh), which is wonderful for coming in on lol Dusknoir or just about everything else in the meta that runs W-o-W; it can happily set up on Blissey given Substitute, thanks to being immune to Seismic Toss; and Infernape (or Blaziken) is hitting it with neutral moves at best (except Shadow Claw which isn't exactly common), and a Scarf set won't even give it a chance to attack.
Relying on prediction to beat a Pokemon which requires no prediction is a terrible argument. It's the same idea as "Let's switch my Bronzong into Mence, because it totally won't get Fire Blasted in the face if I mispredict!" Meanwhile, the Mence player is getting free kills because nothing that comes in can avoid a 2HKO without perfect prediction, or he could set up a DD and suddenly he doesn't even have the same list of counters anymore.
Also, the very definition of counter requires that it has to be able to SWITCH IN. Which Shadow Tag prevents. Thus making it entirely uncounterable, although admittedly it can be checked if it hasn't got a sub up.
@The Guys who tested Shandera and found nothing broken about it
Firstly I highly doubt that Shandera is as underwelming as you say, that fact that it can freely switch in, trap and then boost up to +6 vs a Stall teams key member Blissey is HUGE. But anyway thats not really the point I want to make.
Did it ever occur to you that Shandera might work better Not as a sweeper. Like I said above If I am running a Spike stack team then using Shandera to kill my opponents spinner is HUGE. The spinner cannot switch out and once its eliminated then my opponent now has to navigate around the 25% damage done to his grounded pokemon. Sure, Shandera dies to a Pursuit right after it kills the spinner but its done its job.
Taking another example say I run a Doryuuzu team (or a team based around a sweeper with 1 or 2 counters). I can bring in my star sweeper early, scout its check/counter and then later trap and kill it with Shandera, sure Shandera dies to a pursuit next turn but you just lost your _____ counter which could screw you for the rest of the match. Sure Shandera may only get 1 free kill, however the fact is that it can chose what 'free' kill it gets and this is what makes it so dangerous. Salamence was broken (in Gen 4) under the Support clause, that is it was able to significantly weaken counters for other pokemon to sweep. For example if a Swampert was preventing your Jolteon from Sweeping then you could cripple it with Salamence (at the cost of Salamences life) and then Jolteon is free to inflict huge damage.
This imo is Shandera's real threat, it can very easily weaken other pokemons counters with no effort.
Have a Nice Day!
Firstly I highly doubt that Shandera is as underwelming as you say, that fact that it can freely switch in, trap and then boost up to +6 vs a Stall teams key member Blissey is HUGE. But anyway thats not really the point I want to make.
Did it ever occur to you that Shandera might work better Not as a sweeper. Like I said above If I am running a Spike stack team then using Shandera to kill my opponents spinner is HUGE. The spinner cannot switch out and once its eliminated then my opponent now has to navigate around the 25% damage done to his grounded pokemon. Sure, Shandera dies to a Pursuit right after it kills the spinner but its done its job.
Taking another example say I run a Doryuuzu team (or a team based around a sweeper with 1 or 2 counters). I can bring in my star sweeper early, scout its check/counter and then later trap and kill it with Shandera, sure Shandera dies to a pursuit next turn but you just lost your _____ counter which could screw you for the rest of the match. Sure Shandera may only get 1 free kill, however the fact is that it can chose what 'free' kill it gets and this is what makes it so dangerous. Salamence was broken (in Gen 4) under the Support clause, that is it was able to significantly weaken counters for other pokemon to sweep. For example if a Swampert was preventing your Jolteon from Sweeping then you could cripple it with Salamence (at the cost of Salamences life) and then Jolteon is free to inflict huge damage.
This imo is Shandera's real threat, it can very easily weaken other pokemons counters with no effort.
Have a Nice Day!
Sacrifice something and revenge with Shandera. Repeat until you're left with things you can beat. It isn't hard if you're running Scarf alongside a couple walls, hell even bring something to set up on the Pursuit user.
Sacrifice + Pursuit was pretty much a full-stop for Latias too, but she ended up in Ubers anyway. With Shandera, you can't even choose who to sacrifice.
Sacrifice + Pursuit was pretty much a full-stop for Latias too, but she ended up in Ubers anyway. With Shandera, you can't even choose who to sacrifice.