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Changing our Metagame Plan: Sixth Tier proposition.
- Thread starter Biolizard28
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It is supposed to allow a cut-off point for top OU so that if you don't want to see a Specsmence on every team, you don't have to.
Sorry if I don't mke sense, my brain isn't working too well atm...
The thing about that is, these transitional tiers are totally pointless unless somebody actually supports and uses them. I'd gamble almost anything that it would end up just like BL: a transitional tier that doesn't matter except to further subdivide a tier system that doesn't need it.
Then put them in Ubers. If they're not broken, they shouldn't be put into a seperate tier for people who go "lol I don't want to deal with SpecsMence so it's banned!" If they're broken, they go to Ubers, if not, they stay in the standard metagame.
Hipno I think is arguing that the standard metagame will be more diverse if everything over Base 580 is banned. I don't agree with that either, but I don't know exactly how that would work. If someone created a ShoddyBattle or Competitor tournament, it could be interesting to see.
I am very against even more tier divisions.
Salamence and Latias are not in the same tier. Latias has the same Special Attack and more Speed than Salamence, and a bigger special movepool, so it carries on the CS business much better. And don't even get me started about how CSLatios with its base 130 Special Attack makes Salamence shit its imaginary pants.
Besides, OU is supposed to be where the most powerful but still relatively easily counterable Pokemon are supposed to be, so I don't get why people are trying to ban the good but perfectly counterable Pokemon. OU is fine, and everything that wasn't listed as debatable in the official tier list is counterable. Pokemon such as Garchomp, Blissey, and Metagross are supposed to dominate in OU. I've said it before, and I'll say it again; blanket bans like the ones proposed are fanboyish efforts to force more usage of "favorite" less powerful Pokemon.
Tyrannitar in Uber, like the Uber that we play with now, would be horrible. Only two others resist Sandstream, and one of those makes it Sunny when it comes in.
Tyrannitar in that TOU tier you proposed, makes a bit more sense. All the pokemon you suggested for that tier do make an impact on the game, quite a big one, but as long as a team carries an Ice attack and a Fighting attack, those pokemon wouldn't be a threat. Because of that, they should stay OU
Tyrannitar in that TOU tier you proposed, makes a bit more sense. All the pokemon you suggested for that tier do make an impact on the game, quite a big one, but as long as a team carries an Ice attack and a Fighting attack, those pokemon wouldn't be a threat. Because of that, they should stay OU
Keep in mind that Salamence also has more debilitating weaknesses than the Latis, and that the Latis aren't locked into one move with Soul Dew (and a Special Defense bonus, to boot!). The Latis can clearly outmatch SpecsMence, in the same way that Rayquaza beats out the physical variants.
Again, Ubers is not meant to be balanced. How the Pokemon does in Ubers should not be taken into account when considering a Pokemon for Uber. Only their effect on Standard.
This new environment that's being proposed is even more restricting than Ubers and only helps divide the standard metagame.
If we move dominating forces up a tier, you get more dominating forces. Take Metagross out of the picture. Gengar usage rises. Heatran goes, and Yanmega becomes even more threatening. I highly disagree with this idea, every metagame has to have staples. Equality can never be achieved. Besides, Tyranitar is easily countered by Gliscor, SpecsMence by Blissey (possibly Vaporeon or Heatran depending on which attack you switch it in) and Garchomp by Cresselia.
Ok, this argument is somewhat dumb, considering that the Pokemon listed are countered by "inferior" Pokemon. In my last battle, my Kabutops, in the rain, and with a one Swords Dance boost, OHKO'ed Blissey AND SpecsMence. Although I was able to get a good set-up, it just shows you that defeating these OU's just takes a little PREDICTION, something that every battler needs in order to be good. On that same team, I do not carry any of the "TOU" Pokemon, and I still manage to boast a .750 average. Metagross is only good if you don't carry a flying type; hell, I think Charizard could kill it, or at least force AgiliGross to Explode. The only Pokemon on that list that I have a problem with is Cressy, since it manages to easily survive a CB'ed Heracross Megahorn.
If you are having problems with the "TOU" Pokemon, then carry Bronzong, he walls half of them. This new tier list is stupid because although much thought must have been put into it, the bottom line is that BL Pokemon can function easily in OU verse these Pokemon, and therefore there is no real division between this proposed TOU and OU; the regular OU Pokemon can still function easily, and work around their "stat based" problems.
If you are having problems with the "TOU" Pokemon, then carry Bronzong, he walls half of them. This new tier list is stupid because although much thought must have been put into it, the bottom line is that BL Pokemon can function easily in OU verse these Pokemon, and therefore there is no real division between this proposed TOU and OU; the regular OU Pokemon can still function easily, and work around their "stat based" problems.
TOU, IMO, may actually work. I don't know why there's a BL tier anymore. I hardly EVER see people go out and ask for a BL battle. But this topic isn't about that, so I'll move on.
TOU, is a good idea, but deciding the pokemon that get move to it would be hard. Obviously, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, ect. But what about pokemon who are powerful, but aren't seeing a lot of use? You have Azelf in TOU, but Porygon-Z is far more common. Personally, I'm not for banning either of them (my opinion is biased however, since they're my two favorite 4th gen pokemon) Deciding what is moved into the tier is what I have a problem with.
Some pokemon right now that that rampage around OU that aren't on your list would just be made better. The only true threat to Heracross left would be Gliscor. Porygon-Z's life got a million times easier without Blissey and Cresselia. Same with Gengar, and Specs Lucario, and Togekiss. Special sweepers in general would rule the OU metagame then, instead of Garchomp/Salamence/Tyranitar. Trying to make this tier may be more trouble than it's worth in the long run, even though your intentions are right.
TOU, is a good idea, but deciding the pokemon that get move to it would be hard. Obviously, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, ect. But what about pokemon who are powerful, but aren't seeing a lot of use? You have Azelf in TOU, but Porygon-Z is far more common. Personally, I'm not for banning either of them (my opinion is biased however, since they're my two favorite 4th gen pokemon) Deciding what is moved into the tier is what I have a problem with.
Some pokemon right now that that rampage around OU that aren't on your list would just be made better. The only true threat to Heracross left would be Gliscor. Porygon-Z's life got a million times easier without Blissey and Cresselia. Same with Gengar, and Specs Lucario, and Togekiss. Special sweepers in general would rule the OU metagame then, instead of Garchomp/Salamence/Tyranitar. Trying to make this tier may be more trouble than it's worth in the long run, even though your intentions are right.
I don't think we need a change in the list that surgo made because it seems perfect. Because everyone of them exist with a major weakness. Don't suggest then lets put pokemon like ho-oh to ou. No why because it really has a high stats and would ruin metagame eventhough you would have the chance to defeat it. Yes its attack level 394 is not much high but i cant say it for its other stats. About latis like people referred before they have accessiblity to very diverse and useful movepools and very few weaknesses because of their types. Thus they are rsiky for metagame. I only think that tyranitar will cause problems in sandstorm but maybe because of this weather teams will get their use in this gen. Though tyranitar is weak for 4x figting attacks it still might be hard to take down even gamefreak put attacks such as aura sphere,focus blast,close combat,hammer arm, focus punch(?hard to use even with focus punch),high jump kick(!only seen from medicham i bet)Btw I dont think dragon types are problem because people are running high powered ice beams and ice punches.
No one asks for a BL battle because it is a transitional tier. It includes Pokemon that are too strong for UU play, excluding them from that metagame, but typically require more effort to use effectively in OU. I think it's a good system.
You can look at Salamence's stats and movepool and go "Okay yeah, I know what I can do with this", while some other pokes require more thinking like "Hmm, I'll need to set up Rain Dance for this Swift Swim" or BP speed or whatever.
Having this TOU or whatever I imagine would just be like this; excluding the Pokemon from OU but showing that with a little effort they can be used effectively in Uber, seeing as there only being a handful would make for a pretty crap metagame. The thing is though, I don't think that's the case at all.
You can't spend as much time setting up in Ubers, because odds are you'll be dead before you can do anything. If I have my Kingdra in on a SingBliss, I know I can get off 2 or 3 DDs because of Lum Berry. In Ubers, I'll have been served by the time that happens.The few Pokes that can, like Swords Dance Arceus have a recovery move and good defences to back it up.
The pokes in this TOU tier are typically just gimp versions of Pokes already in Ubers. Azelf is Mewtwo, Physical Mence and Garchomp are Rayquaza, SpecsMence is the Latis, Cresselia is Lugia, and so on. Limiting the OU metagame will not make it more interesting; most pokes there get served with no great effort anyway, so why decrease the number of choices available?
You can look at Salamence's stats and movepool and go "Okay yeah, I know what I can do with this", while some other pokes require more thinking like "Hmm, I'll need to set up Rain Dance for this Swift Swim" or BP speed or whatever.
Having this TOU or whatever I imagine would just be like this; excluding the Pokemon from OU but showing that with a little effort they can be used effectively in Uber, seeing as there only being a handful would make for a pretty crap metagame. The thing is though, I don't think that's the case at all.
You can't spend as much time setting up in Ubers, because odds are you'll be dead before you can do anything. If I have my Kingdra in on a SingBliss, I know I can get off 2 or 3 DDs because of Lum Berry. In Ubers, I'll have been served by the time that happens.The few Pokes that can, like Swords Dance Arceus have a recovery move and good defences to back it up.
The pokes in this TOU tier are typically just gimp versions of Pokes already in Ubers. Azelf is Mewtwo, Physical Mence and Garchomp are Rayquaza, SpecsMence is the Latis, Cresselia is Lugia, and so on. Limiting the OU metagame will not make it more interesting; most pokes there get served with no great effort anyway, so why decrease the number of choices available?
This is a load of bull. You remove all those top OU, then what? Oh look, suddenly every team has Starmie, Blissey, Skarm again, P-Z. Whatever, then you say hey these guys are all too powerful for OU, but not good enough for TOU, so they get dumped in an intermediate tier: too good for OU but not quite as good as TOU, or TGFOUBNQAGATOU for short.
Then you get a new load of things rising to the top. Whatever, soon you get fed up of them and dump them in another intermediate tier. Eventually, we're left with ten or so tiers, each with twelve Pokémon in. So now we have a totally fractured metagame that can be analysed very accurately because there's only about four teams you can use in each tier any way. Then some bright spark says, hey why not conglomerate all of these similar-strength Pokémon into one tier and we're back where we started.
Then you get a new load of things rising to the top. Whatever, soon you get fed up of them and dump them in another intermediate tier. Eventually, we're left with ten or so tiers, each with twelve Pokémon in. So now we have a totally fractured metagame that can be analysed very accurately because there's only about four teams you can use in each tier any way. Then some bright spark says, hey why not conglomerate all of these similar-strength Pokémon into one tier and we're back where we started.
I've got... quite a bit to respond to.
Making a new tier is just ridicolous. If that happens, the OU metagame gets centralized around other pokemon and then they get removed out of the OU metagame again...
People just want to ban them to OU because they are the strongest in OU. That's why you have to build a good team that counters most of these, what is rather hard.
If you want to play without tyranitars and garchomps (which are seriously overhyped), then go play UU or NU, or even uber if you want to.
People just want to ban them to OU because they are the strongest in OU. That's why you have to build a good team that counters most of these, what is rather hard.
If you want to play without tyranitars and garchomps (which are seriously overhyped), then go play UU or NU, or even uber if you want to.
haha, yeah concurring with mekkah on that one.
honestly all this tier talk is just way too early. we've had these half-way decent simulators for like a week or something. metagames need a little more time to develop. basically, i like the tier list that we posted the other day, with ttar in ou and manaphy in uber. i think we should just play the game for a month, and see what trends we spot. it's just too early right now to try and analyze certain pokemon, when the game is so fresh.
anyway, there have been discussions about a middle tier anyway between Uber and OU. It will probably happen eventually, because it could be a good idea, but for now I think we should just let things play out.
honestly all this tier talk is just way too early. we've had these half-way decent simulators for like a week or something. metagames need a little more time to develop. basically, i like the tier list that we posted the other day, with ttar in ou and manaphy in uber. i think we should just play the game for a month, and see what trends we spot. it's just too early right now to try and analyze certain pokemon, when the game is so fresh.
anyway, there have been discussions about a middle tier anyway between Uber and OU. It will probably happen eventually, because it could be a good idea, but for now I think we should just let things play out.
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