Charizard (Revamp)

[Alfalfa]

Back when Stealth Rock didn't exist

[Overview]
*Famous since the early days of RBY
*Has absurd power with Sunny Day and STAB in play
*Decent base 100 speed, allowing it to outrun several Pokemon at +1, and cannot be burned, which would otherwise ruin a potential Belly Drum sweep.
*Bulk is okay this generation, as it is not as fast paced as the later ones. It also is immune to Spikes, which is cool
*However, the presence of Tyranitar's Sand Stream can easily halt a sweep.
*Lacks a physical Fire STAB
*Sports common weaknesses to Water, Electric, and Rock type moves
*Can struggle with Blissey, Snorlax, and Tyranitar
*Despite these flaws, dismissing Charizard as not a threat is foolish, as you will easily regret it.

name: Substitute + Sunny Day
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Sunny Day
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Overheat
item: Petaya Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
ivs: 30 HP

[Set Comments]
*Fire Power!
*Sub three times to get into Petaya and Blaze range
*Sunny Day powers up Fire Blast
*Fire Blast is basic STAB that abuses
**However, with all of the boosts put together, only Swampert is going to always be OHKOd after Spikes; Suicune will only be KOd a small percentage (6.25%) of the time, and Milotic avoids the OHKO.
*Overheat can kill them all after Spikes, but the -2 drop will make it weaker after each use; however, Charizard is not killing everything in one outing to begin with.

[Additional Comments]
*EVs maximise offensive presence
*30 HP IVs allows Charizard to reach Petaya and Blaze range after three Substitutes
*HP Grass can be used for before the sweep, as well as Focus Punch. If Focus Punch is run, put in neutral nature to increase its damage output.
*Blast Burn can be used as a last-ditch attempt to kill something, but the recharge is a major drawback, and gives your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want.
*Dugtrio, Metagross, Flygon, and Machamp are good teammates to dispose Tyranitar
*Spikes support is appreciated to grab some key KOs, such as Swampert. Forretress and Skarmory can lay down Spikes.
*If Focus Punch is not chosen, then Blissey and Snorlax can be problematic. Gengar can lure them in and explode on them, inflicting severe damage. Celebi can also set up Calm Minds on Blissey for Charizard to use even further.

name: SubPunch
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
item: Leftovers
ability: Blaze
nature: Mild / Rash
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[Set Comments]
*Charizard is a very good lure to bait in Blissey, Snorlax, or Tyranitar to soak the incoming Fire Blast, allowing you to hit them with Focus Punch.
*Fire Blast is a STAB to roast the opponent
*Hidden Power Grass hits Swampert super effectively, whereas Hidden Power Ice hits Salamence. However, Hidden Power Ice will require the attack IVs to drop a point, so move 4 EVs from Special Attack to attack if you use HP Ice.

[Additional Comments]
*Appreciates Spikes support to wear down bulky waters, especially Suicune and Milotic.
*Doesn't really mind sandstorm as much as the other sets do, but a Wish passer, like Blissey or Jirachi, is a good idea to have
*Pokemon that like Blissey, Snorlax, and Tyranitar gone, like Jirachi and Zapdos, are good partners.
*Celebi synergizes well with Charizard, being able to handle bulky waters better, and can pass a Leech Seed to Charizard.

[SET]
name: BellyZard (Belly Drum)
move 1: Belly Drum
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Substitute / Double-Edge / Hidden Power Flying
move 4: Earthquake
item: Salac Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Lonely
evs: 252 Atk / 120 SpA / 136 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
*Charizard's most famous set
*Belly Drum up to +6, and once you get into Salac and Blaze range, you can fully sweep.
*Substitute allows Charizard to avoid status. It also allows Charizard to come into Salac range.
*An additional attack can be used in place of Substitute. Double-Edge can be used to kill Zapdos, but gives Charizard problems with Gengar and Starmie. Hidden Power Flying nails those two, but gives you an issue with Zapdos.
*Earthquake is Charizard's best option against Rock types not named Aerodactyl.
*Fire Blast is a STAB for roasting through threats like Skarmory

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
*136 Speed EVs allows Charizard to outrun Adamant Heracross
*8 EVs can be moved to speed to outrun +1 Salamence, but Charizard loses to Salamence anyways.
*Dugtrio support is a good idea to remove Tyranitar for a sun setter to remove Sandstorm.
*Flygon, Metagross, and Machamp can also dispose of Tyranitar
*Good weather supporters include Exeggutor and Victreebel, who can remove bulky waters with a STAB Solarbeam, and put something to sleep


[Other Options]
*Dragon Dance or Swords Dance can be used to give Charizard a much lower risk factor, but is is too easy to handle
*Flamethrower and Heat Wave can be used in place of Fire Blast or Overheat, but the substantial drop in power is generally not worth it.
*Charizard has some other attacks in ThunderPunch, Aerial Ace, Rock Slide, and Dragon Claw, but the above options are generally better.

[Checks and Counters]
*Bulky Water types can break Charizard's Substitute and leave it exposed
*Salamence and Gyarados can set up Dragon Dances on either set, but the former dislikes Hidden Power Ice
*Flygon is similar to Salamence, but it can instead just use Rock Slide, as it lacks Dragon Dance
*Specially Defensive Zapdos can cause troubles for the first two sets
*Tyranitar can cause a lot of trouble for BellyZard, as its Sandstorm puts a complete stop to a potential BellyZard sweep. However, the special set OHKOs Ttar with Focus Punch
*Aerodactyl and Zapdos mind taking Blaze-boosted Fire Blasts, but they can cause BellyZard troubles with their super effective STABs.
*Charizard tends to go mixed, and as a result, will have a bit less bulk

 

[Pocket]

Charizard isn't known for its BellyDrum set; it's known for its SubPetaya SunnyBlaze set that can even destroy bulky Water-types. After a Sun boost, Petaya boost, and Blaze boost - Charizard packs a shitton of damage.

name: Substitute + Sunny Day
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Sunny Day
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Overheat / Hidden Power Grass / Focus Punch
item: Petaya Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
ivs: 30 HP

30 HP gives Charizard 296 HP, which allows Petaya to activate on the 3rd Substitute in conjunction with Blaze.

AC mention Hasty / Mild Nature if it runs Focus Punch for Tyranitar / Snorlax / Houndoom

Dugtrio is Charizard's best friend for disposing Tyranitar / Houndoom / Raikou

Spikes support is great to wear down bulky Water-types / Tyranitar / Snorlax

Metagross / Flygon appreciates Water-types being eliminated, as well as being a decent answer to Tyranitar and Snorlax. Machamp can also make short work of Tyranitar and Snorlax. They all possess resistance to Rock Slides, which helps cover for Charizard's #1 weakness.

 

[Alfalfa]

The person I spoke with on IRC (RudyGarrett) said that Sunny Day Charizard was just a worse Moltres

And I am did some calcs - it can only really guarantee a OHKO on Swampert after Spikes - Suicune has a 93.75% chance to survive Fire Blast after Spikes, and same with Milotic.

+1 252 SpA Blaze Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune in sun: 258-304 (63.86 - 75.24%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after 3 layer of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Blaze Charizard Fire Blast vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Swampert in sun: 318-375 (80.5 - 94.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Blaze Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic in sun: 241-284 (61.16 - 72.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 3 layer of Spikes

Basically, I could take the Fire Blast and break Zard's substitute for Raikou, Jolteon, Gengar, Starmie, etc. to go and KO Charizard. If it OHKOed them all, then I might have added it, but it can only guarantee an OHKO on Swampert after Spikes - Suicune is only being OHKOed in one of sixteen chances, and Milotic can survive a full-boosted Fire Blast after Spikes.

 

[danilo]

this analysis isn't getting approved if u dont add the set pocket posted

 

[Alfalfa]

I added it, but if we are going to keep it, can we at least discuss it? I did the calcs and Fire Blast hits everything harder than Hidden Power Grass under the sun - it only really kills Swampert before the sun, and Overheat's -2 drop is detrimental to this set. Why is Overheat even up there when the drops will easily backlash?

 

[Pocket]

Well a +1 Blaze-activated Fire Blast - Overheat combo scores a 2HKO on Suicune after a layer of Spikes without setting up Sun. With the same conditions, Overheat also OHKOs even the most specially-defensive Zapdos on average, too. Overheat is simply a nice kamikaze or hit-and-run move on this set that takes the most advantage of the Sun and Blaze boosts, as opposed to Hidden Power Grass and Focus Punch. This set's main purpose is to spam stupidly powerful STAB fire moves, so Overheat naturally fits best. The power difference (and accuracy) between Fire Blast and Overheat are notable enough to have Charizard be equipped with both moves.

I would remove the Special Attacker set, since it's redundant with the Substitute + Sunny Day set. I would also move this set to the top.

 

[danilo]

The Sub Punch HP Grass set is good enough to warrant its own set. It's different enough too. The Sunny Day set beats Water-types while the Sub Punch setbeats blobs. Idk how good Belly Zard is. I'd like other people's input on that. Blast Burn isn't bad on the Sunny Day set. Warrants an OO mention

 

[Alfalfa]

The Sub Punch HP Grass set is good enough to warrant its own set. It's different enough too. The Sunny Day set beats Water-types while the Sub Punch Set beats blobs. Idk how good Belly Zard is. I'd like other peoples input on that. Blast Burn isn't bad on the Sunny Day set. Warrants an OO mention

Blast Burn is terrible; despite the absurd amount of power, you give your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want.

 

[Pocket]

OK, Danilo. Sub Sunny Day isn't meant to last long anyways - just punch holes while it has the Petaya + Blaze (and hopefully Sun) boost. Blast Burn certainly works as a last ditch move before Charizard's candle goes out - I'd AC it in the Substitute + Sunny Day set

 

[Alfalfa]

Anything else I should add?

 

[Pocket]

Well you should re-write your Overview and Checks & Counters to gear towards the Sunny Day set more than the Belly Drum set.

 

[danilo]

No slashes on the first set. the slashes distract from the main purpose of the set: destroying water-types. if you want focus punch, use the other sub set. speaking of the other sub set, it should be second on the list; it's way more consistent than belly drum. sub punch can run petaya berry. slash it with leftovers.

 

[Pocket]

HP Grass and Focus Punch still deserves an AC mention, imo. HP Grass gives Charizard some nice Fire + Grass offense early- mid-game before it sets up, and Focus Punch is certainly nice for Houndoom / Tyranitar / Snorlax, all of which can cock-block the set otherwise. Fire Blast may provide all the firepower it needs once Petaya + Blaze activates anyway without the second STAB.

I'd rename the Sub Drum set to just Belly Drum and slash a coverage move with Substitute. Double-Edge is nice, since it can net KOs that EQ misses out on, as well as being able to deal with Flygon, Salamence, and Gyarados. The recoil may bump it up to Salac + Blaze range, too. AC mention max Speed + Jolly, too.

 

[danilo]

i second what pocket said. im fine w/ just ac mentions

 

[Alfalfa]

Fine with me

 

[danilo]

some of your comments need work
-Overheat isn't solely a hit and run move. It's the move you want to use after you've accumulated all of your boosts.
-what EVs are u assuming Blissey runs in ADV. No one really runs Bold Blissey. Probably dont need 24 attack evs
-gengar is a much better teammate for charizard than machamp and heracross. gengar can lure in and ko snorlax/blissey with taunt wow or explosion. explosion regice does the same. cm bp celebi is a cool partner since you can setup on blissey and pass the boosts to zard

belly drum needs to be the third set. i also think that sub might be a bad move on belly drum zard. you can switch into a meta meteor mash, drum as a it switches out, and you'll be in salac range. same thing with other pkmn you threaten out like jira, celebi, etc. slash hidden power flying . hp fly lets u beat bulky gengar, aero, etc. double-edge could be worth a mention too. lets you beat zapdos. run 8 more speed evs. outspeeding mence is important if you have hp fly. victreebel is terrible.

specifically mention specially defensive zapdos as a good answer to the first two charizard sets

 

[Alfalfa]

Except why would I Overheat after accumulating all of the boosts, when I go -2 after? I would prefer spamming Fire Blast on my opponent for the next couple of turns.

I am also curious as to what other Chlorophyll user I should mention in place of Victreebel (after all, we always need more than one option). Shiftry is too fragile and does not have Sleep Powder, and Jumpluff is way too weak.

 

[danilo]

just eggy.

you won't be spamming fire blast for the next few turns. that's just not how the game works. in an actual game, after you get all of your boosts, you are at max killing one pokemon. sometimes you won't kill anything at all; if they have a roar suicune, pert, lotic, etc. if u do kill something, they'll be revenge killing your charizard immediately after. that's what you seem to not get. who cares if you are at -2. you're not doing anything after you've maybe done 90% to there water-type. at least overheat and blast burn can help you dispose of waters. i know blast burn will ohko immunity lax. overheat does close to the same thing too. also, if you managed to control the weather, you can still spam blaze boosted fire blasts later in the game, AFTER you have switched out. charizard isnt kill everything in one sitting

 

[danilo]

gonna reassign this analysis. maybe to myself

 

[Alfalfa]

I fixed the things you asked me. Just we don't always see eye-to-eye doesn't mean I can't get it done.

 

[DittoCrow]

To be honest it doesn't really seem like you have much experience with Charizard in ADV. The best set wasn't included in the first place and a lot of stuff needs work. Even though you added the changes doesn't mean that it will be written well. There are a lot of things in here that I personally look out for to remove in analyses, such as really obvious things in the overview like its weaknesses instead of how the Pokemon fares in the metagame. It's best to not include things that the reader is already aware of, such as "Fire Blast is basic STAB." This indicates that you haven't really tested or used the set to its full potential which is why it seems that this analyses would be better off written by another user. If you disagree with me you can rewrite the skeleton within a few days and ask for another look at it, otherwise I think it is better off being reassigned. You have a good start, but ADV revamps especially capitalize on strategy and we don't really feel you have a full grasp on Charizard's abilities right now.

 

[Pocket]

yere echoing Danilo / DittoCrow - if you have no play experience with the Sunny Day set, then you probably shouldn't write this analysis. The overview doesn't even mention it, while it talks about the Belly Drum set.