Chesnaught [QC 2/3] - Written

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CorruptedOmega

Banned deucer.
[OVERVIEW]
Chesnaught has a small supportive niche that few other Pokemon can fill. In a metagame where most Pokemon run Protect, Feint is a useful attack to catch your opponent off guard and pick up a surprise KO with the aid of your partner. Chesnaught also has decent bulk and STAB coverage, allowing it to soft check a handful of prevalent threats such as Kangaskhan, Landorus, and most Water-types bar Volcanion. Despite this, Chesnaught struggles to compete with other Grass-types because, well, they're just generally better. It is outclassed by Virizion as a bulky attacker, both in speed and power. Breloom does the same and has access to Spore, though it is much more frail. Ferrothorn outclasses it as a Leech Seed user, boasting a better defensive typing and better overall base stats. What's more, Chesnaught can be easily KO'ed by common attacking types such as Fire, Fairy, and Flying, and its low Speed leaves it rather vulnerable.

Though Chesnaught is good at what it does, Feint support just isn't a necessity for any team. Most of the time you'll find that it does more to impede your team than to benefit it.

[SET]
name: Bulky Support
move 1: Wood Hammer / Seed Bomb
move 2: Drain Punch / Hammer Arm
move 3: Feint / Leech Seed
move 4: Spiky Shield
item: Sitrus Berry / Leftovers
ability: Bulletproof
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 32 Def / 156 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
Wood Hammer is Chesnaught's primary STAB, hitting Water-types hard. The recoil can be problematic, however. To avoid this Seed Bomb can be used, but do note that the damage drop doesn't allow you to OHKO Keldeo reliably. Drain Punch hits Kangaskhan and Steel-types hard while also stacking with its recovery item, making it annoying to deal with. Hammer Arm is a more powerful alternative which has a chance to OHKO Hydreigon after Life Orb recoil. Also after a Speed drop Chesnaught can underspeed some Pokemon in Trick Room. Feint has a variety of applications. It allows you to break Protect, Quick Guard, and Wide Guard. It can guarantee teammates essential KOs or force out your opponent in fear of a KO through Protect. It can also be used to catch mega Pokemon off guard as they Protect turn one to get a speed boost, only to find their protection broken and themselves KO'd. With +2 priority it can also break Sashes on Pokemon like Weavile and Breloom or get in tiny chip damage before Chesnaught dies. Leech Seed allows Chesnaught to whittle down foes while recovering HP, especially bulkier Pokemon that resist its dual STAB such as Aegislash and Thundurus. From there Chesnaught's teammates can deal with the weakened Pokemon. Spiky Shield lets your teammate deal with a Pokemon that threatens Chesnaught, stall out field conditions such as Trick Room or Sun, or get more Leech Seed recovery. It can also be used to get chip damage on physical attackers, putting them into range for a KO the next turn or even finishing them off.

Set Details
========
The given EVs assures Mega Kangaskhan cannot 2HKO Chesnaught with a Sitrus Berry and survives Kyurem Black's Ice Beam. The remaining EVs are dumped into Attack. Chesnaught is given an Impish nature to take advantage of its natural physical bulk. If you run Leech Seed, Leftovers should be used. Together they grant greater recovery over a longer amount of time. Otherwise the one time use Sitrus Berry is the safer, more reliable option. Bulletproof is Chesnaught's preferred ability as Overgrow is unreliable. Bulletproof grants Chesnaught immunity to a strange handful of attacks, most notably Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball.

Usage Tips
========
Chesnaught makes a good switch-in to neutral or resisted attacks due to its good bulk. It also does well in the late-game when its checks have been taken care of. From there it can proceed to whittle away at your opponents' remaining Pokemon. If facing a Taunt user like Thundurus or Gyarados it should just keep attacking to get some damage in.

Team Options
========
Chesnaught works particularly well with strong spread attackers due to its access to Feint. Diancie makes a good partner for Chesnaught since it can kill the Fire and Flying-types that threaten it, and in turn Chesnaught resists all of Diancie's notable weaknesses. Diancie also appreciates Feint support for Diamond Storm. Similarly, Landorus makes a good partner since it KO the Fire and Flying-types Chesnaught fears and Chesnaught can deal with the Water-types Landorus dislikes. What's more, Landorus appreciates Feint support for Earthquake. Heatran is a good partner for Chesnaught due to their complementary typing. With the addition of a Water-type such as Rotom Wash, they can form a neat Fire / Water / Grass core. Heatran appreciates Feint support for Heat Wave, too. Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon appreciate Chesnaught's Feint support for Hyper Voice. Also to note, Bulletproof grants Chesnaught immunity to Shadow Ball which Gardevoir appreciates. Chesnaught also needs teammates that can remove its offensive checks, namely Talonflame, Charizard, Diancie, Gardevoir, and Kyurem Black. Again Heatran makes a good partner, able to completely wall three out of the five above. Offensive Thundurus makes a good partner since it is able to remove Talonflame and Charizard reliably, as well as Diancie if it is running Flash Cannon. Feint also breaks Quick Guard, so priority users such as Talonflame and Thundurus benefit from its support. Very powerful attackers like Deoxys and Belly Drum Azumarill appreciate its ability to break Protects, so they can KO your opponent's Pokemon without fear of attacking into a Protect.


[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Due to its expansive movepool, Chesnaught can run many different moves according to your team's needs. Low Kick is an alternative option for a Fighting STAB that hits some foes harder than Hammer Arm, but is weak against select threats like Rotom formes and Jirachi. Helping Hand is another option to power-up a teammate's move, and a good last-ditch if Chesnaught is about to die due to its +5 priority. Taunt allows Chesnaught to shut down Amoonguss, prevent Trick Room, and stop Thundurus from spamming Thunder Wave. Quick Guard allows Chesnaught to protect itself and allies from priority attacks, notably Brave Bird and Prankster Thunder Wave. Synthesis is another recovery option over Leech Seed, healing more HP more reliably, albeit not doing any damage. Roar allows Chesnaught to beat Substitute users, prevent Trick Room, and remove setup sweepers, even through Protect.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Flying-type Pokemon**: Flying-types are especially threatening to Chesnaught. Though it can take big hits, Chesnaught simply cannot live a four times super effective attack. Even if said Flying-type is not running a Flying-type attack, such as Thundurus, it can still wall Chesnaught by resisting both of Chesnaught's STABs.

**Fire-type Pokemon**: Fire-types such as Heatran, Charizard, and Volcanion threaten Chesnaught with super effective attacks and also resist one of its STABs. Though Heatran can be hit for big damage with Drain Punch, it forces you into mind games of whether to attack to prevent a Substitute or to switch to avoid taking damage.

**Grass-type Pokemon**: Grass-types check Chesnaught defensively since they resist at least one STAB and are immune to Leech Seed. Amoonguss is especially annoying since it resists Chesnaught's Fighting STAB as well.

**Faster Pokemon**: With its pitiful Speed stat, Chesnaught usually has to stomach a few hits before being able to attack. This leaves it vulnerable to strong, fast attackers.

**Burns**: Burns especially diminish Chesnaught's effectiveness, not only by removing its little offensive presence but by also damaging it each turn.
 
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wtf am i looking at, that is not the set

-hammer arm
-seed bomb/feint
-leech seed
-spiky shield

this is the set

your EVs dont make sense either but we're gonna do more qc discussion about that one
 
Hey man! I know this is a WIP but please use bullet points instead of writing it out in full. You'll have to wait until you have two QC checks before you write it up, just to save you some work to make the process of changing stuff easier, especially since this is your first analysis and stuff.
 
implemented, thanks

EDIT: as for my EV spread, I don't know what your referring to Stratos. Should I not EV it to try to live a Mega Diancie Moonblast? Or is the spread inefficient? Should I maximize HP first then add Special Defense EVs? Should I use an Impish Nature instead of Careful and just make it as physically bulky as possible?
 
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you want to prioritize the OHKO on Kang (hammer arm PLEASE, drain punch is OO material) but also yeah your spread isn't efficient, as i said QC will talk about this and get back to you ASAP, you can still do a lot of the analysis without the spread
 
To get comfortably close to OHKOing Mega Kang with Hammer Arm you have to rely on an Expert Belt. I mean we can talk about it latter, but I'd rather 2HKO w/ Drain Punch and take its health (also lefties recovery) than OHKO with Hammer Arm after taking a big chunk.
 
someone should check if wood hammer gets any ko's that seed bomb doesnt. I wouldnt be surprised if it did tbh. I would do it myself, but i dont feel like it rn
 
0 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 300-354 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO, realistically guaranteed since Keldeo moves first and has LO

That alone is enough for Wood Hammer over Seed Bomb



Also an OO mention of Belly Drum would make me happy :)
 
Implemented Acrticblast's suggestions. Belly Drum has no priority and is essentially a gimmick so I'm not going to put it in OO. Suggestions for the Usage Tips section? Btw I made the EV spread hella better.
 
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Definitely read through The C&C Guide, I personally found it really helpful going into writing each time. That should explain more about what QC is looking for with regards to Usage Tips.

Other than that, I'd also suggest that you include some more in Set Details - explain how the item, the nature, and the ability are helpful to Chesnaught's success. Also mention the pros and cons of each item choice since you have two.
 
"Bulletproof grants Chestnaught an immunity to a strange handful of attacks" but otherwise QC will handle all corrections and expansions from this point
 
check's am check n_n

[OVERVIEW]

You don't really mention its strong points very much. Say stuff like "Chesnaught does this uniquely" or "It's got this over other grasses" You talk about it a little but not very much. Also this is a little too much meta analysis imo and should have some more general description of what Chesnaught does (grass-fighting, hits x, y, z, tanks x, y, z)

Mention its middling speed tier, and use this as a lead-in to comparison with virizion and breloom.

common threats such as Charizard, Diancie, and Talonflame Fire- and Fairy-types such as Charizard, Diancie, and Talonflame

Mention some of its unique support, what team archetypes you might put this on

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
  • Feint can aid teammates in netting essential KOs or force out your opponent in fear of a KO through Protect. <------ mention hitting megas as they evolve + protect such as Diancie.
  • Leech Seed allows Chesnaught to stall out your opponent while recovering HP. <-------- specifically mention matchups this helps with, ie steels such as Jirachi and Aegislash?
  • Spiky Shield lets you get more Leech Seed recovery or let your teammate deal with a Pokemon that threatens Chesnaught. <--- maybe mention spiky shield's unique side-effect of recoil

Usage tips
-make some mention of just attacking through taunt


[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

  • Super Fang ... <--- remove imo. Super Fang sounds bad
  • Quick Guard can be used in the third moveslot to protect itself from Talonflame Brave Bird ... <--- note that flare blitz hits through quick guard

Checks and Counters
===================

**Typing Advantage**:
  • Any Pokemon with typing advantage <--- list some typings and some examples? ie flying types such as Talonflame, etc.

**Utility Moves**:
  • Taunt <--- not sure if taunt should be a tag... you get attacking moves which let you attack around taunt so idk. Ie taunt keldeo isn't scaring you anytime soon
  • Substitute <--- I wouldn't put this here... sub users that win against you should already be mentioned in typing adv. anyways
 
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checkmater75 thetalkingtree

In the Overview I implemented your suggestions to the best of my ability, though I left out the comparison to Breloom as they are quite different. Breloom is quite frail and is used primarily to Spore spam. Virizion and Ferrothorn seem more suitable comparisons to Chesnaught due to their bulk. I also left out you mention of what team archetypes Chesnaught would work well in, as that should go in usage tips/team options if I am not mistaken.

In Moves I implemented all suggestions except for your suggestion on Feint, as it seems barely significant.

In usage tips I disregarded your suggestion, because it seems like common sense to keep attacking through Taunt if your opponent's remaining mons don't have a good match-up against Chesnaught. I don't want to mislead people to keep attacking against, say, a Thundurus. (am I over thinking this?)

I'm keeping Super Fang, its good. I implemented the stuff on Flare Blitz.

In Checks (lol) and Counters I'm keeping Taunt for the reasons explained above. As for substitute I modified it so as to present Heatran and Kyube as special cases in which they fall under both tags.



I really appreciate all the advice and help guys. Thanks! I hope this analysis turns out p good so I can get some credibility in the community.
 
CorruptedOmega7, here's the thing... thetalkingtree is a qc member and if he says to implement checkmaters am-check, you implement it in the entirety, regardless of what you think should or should not be included. After you implement it, then you can make arguments as to why you shouldn't implement certain things, but don't just do things or not implement stuff on your own. If you want credibility in the community then listen to QC, we're here to make sure the analyses are good. So basically follow the am-check in its entirety. thanks.
 
Seeing as you're at least explaining your reasoning behind why you decided not to implement, I figured I'd return the favor.

To someone looking at different options for a team, Chesnaught and Breloom seem incredibly comparable and Breloom needs to at least be mentioned, even if it is to say that they perform quite differently. Team archetypes should also be mentioned in at least the Overview for someone looking at a quick rundown for when to use Chesnaught, not only in Usage Tips/Team Options.

Feint is incredibly significant and check has actually used the move in exactly that way against me more than once, it's worth a mention.

Even if it is common sense to attack through Taunt, you need to mention it. Since the opponent has two mons on the field, it's likely that Chesnaught can at least damage one of them well, and if not then it should probably be switching out anyway so you don't need to worry about misleading them with regards to attacking a resistant target.

I'm on the fence at best about Super Fang, if you can show me a replay of it doing well in a situation where other moves wouldn't be better suited I'll consider it.

Considering that you have a grand total of one and a half non-attacking moves (half being that Leech Seed is only slashed), Taunt cannot be considered a check or counter. Chesnaught shouldn't be too reliant on Leech Seed (and as a result I'm probably going to suggest a change in EVs but we'll discuss that later). Please remove the mention.

I'm glad that you're taking the time to think through everything and give your first analysis the attention it deserves, but in the future as shaian said, please follow QC's instructions and then ask why as opposed to resisting our request. It'll make the whole process much easier.

When you've finished with the rest of the check I'll go over everything else. Thanks
 
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