Choice Band Cacturne (With Some Calcs)

Colonel M

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Well, he DOES have the physical movepool to use it (that and STAB Sucker Punch). >_>

Cacturne @ Choice Band
Sand Veil
Naughty Nature
252 Attack, 210 Speed, 42 Special Attack <-Credit Bliksem for the EV Spread.

Move 1: Sucker Punch
Move 2: Seed Bomb
Move 3: Dynamicpunch / Brick Break
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice

Read this please about Hidden Power Ice!
Although HP Ice is supposed to counter Dragons, the 16 will only allow to come close to a 1HKO. On something like SpecsMence, it's doing about 85.20% - 100.30%. However, you would need all your Special Attack EVs to at least KO DDMence, so it might be recommended that, if you DO want to kill Dragons better, and since 55 Speed is just about good enough for this, Cacturne could go Brave and benefit with Trick Room support. This just basically means to shift the Speed into Special Attack and gain a Speed IV of 0 (which would be a given anyways).

Sorry but seriously after people mentioning it, I forgot to even mention it: Stealth Rock support is recommended. Spikes is minor however.

Dynamicpunch is risky, but Brick Break OHKOs Tyranitar with Max HP as well. Consider what you want really.

If you want a Bug Move for the hell of it, there are two options: Fury Cutter (from R/S/FR/LG/E) or Pin Missile (Level-Up). You may just want Return, however, Bug moves can hit neutral Grasses (I.E. Torterra, but probably not hard enough to be viable).

Seed Bomb and Thunderpunch are illegal, so it's not really warranted. However, if you choose the less-powerful yet somewhat useful Needle Arm, it's a viable option. However, the only reason, IMO, to use Needle Arm is because of one of two reasons: If and ONLY IF Seed Bomb is illegal somewhere, or if you run Scarf.

Jolly + Choice Scarf will outspeed Base 110s, and catch up to even Adamant / Modest 120s, however, you loose the lackluster power from Choice Band and Sucker Punch.

Life Orb is a decent option, but to be honest, it'd be better to run a mixed probably then.

Calculations

(Can't do any on Low Kick, since the Calculator on Metalkid's doesn't seem to compute with it, HOWEVER, the base power of Low Kick is 120 on Tyranitar).

Sucker Punch on Max HP + Def Slowbro (Bold)-> 68.53% - 80.71%
(Note that Seed Bomb would basically do the exact same damage, hehe).

Needle Arm on above -> 51.78% - 60.91%

Seed Bomb on Max HP TTar (Adamant)-> 91.09% - 106.93%

Seed Bomb on Max HP + Def Hippowdon (Bold)-> 61.19% - 72.14%

Sucker Punch on Max HP + Def Celebi (Bold) -> 71.29% - 83.91%

Dynamicpunch on Max HP + Def Blissey (Bold) -> 83.75% - 98.60%

Sucker Punch on Max HP + Def Cresselia (Bold) -> 57.43% - 67.34%

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There's no point to do the recieving end, seeing as he won't survive much aside from a couple not very effective attacks.
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Well, I guess it was something worth trying to mention, I guess. Suggestions / etc? >_>
 
Cacturne is most likely to see switches to Infernape, Salamence or something along those lines. So I'd suggest designing your moveset around hurting them, rather than Blissey or Tyranitar who fear Leech Seed/Focus Punch, moves Cacturne is known for using.

Edit: Still, STAB Sucker Punch from 115 Attack is rad.
 
Pitifully enough, Cacturne can't learn Rock Slide even. Major bummer.

Hm, HP Ice almost kills 'Mence with Neutral Nature and no Sp Attack EVs, so with even 16, it comes down to 85.20% - 100.30%. So with Stealth Rock support, it works like a charm I guess. Might want to take a stab for a suggestion to even recommend HP Ice however. >_>

Fighting has 2 purposes: Blissey and Steels. That's the only reason to have fighting anyways, though, it could be taken out.

I think this would probably work best under Spikes / Stealth Rock put into play.
 
Not likely Celebi'll attack you, you're immune / resistant to both its stabs. You describe Return as a filler but I don't see it in the set.
 
Like Anti said, Celebi will never really attack you (unless it carries Hidden Power Fighting, then maybe). Instead, it will use the opportunity to set up Calm Mind/Swords Dance/Substitute and then use Baton Pass. So yeah, Celebi is a pretty big counter to that set.
 
I've always wanted to use Cacturne, but he had no physical STAB and now I can! I think I would have less speed for more SAtk, as HP Ice still can't OHKO mence.
 
I don't really like sucker punch+choice band as most people aren't attack twice when they see sucker punch. However with life orb you only do

53.57% - 63.10% to Hippowdon (max HP + Def)

which isn't a guaranteed 2hko w/ leftovers.

though you still always 2hko TTar and Slowbro

and while you may be 2HKOing cresselia with Sucker Punch she can moonlight the damage and 2hko you with ice beam

anyway it can def damage the pokes you mentioned but i'd like to see how much it can do to its counters, mainly mence and heracross, cause I don't know how many of those pokes are staying in on cacturne to eat a sucker punch/seed bomb.
 
Colonel M said:
Calculations

(Can't do any on Low Kick, since the Calculator on Metalkid's doesn't seem to compute with it, HOWEVER, the base power of Low Kick is 120 on Tyranitar).
Click to expand...
That's why "Override" is available as a move option in the calculator. What, you thought the move type, power, and attack type were there just for Hidden Power? XD (Okay, that's a tad harsh.)

Still, Low Kick OHKOs even the bulkiest of Tars, no question about it.
drew1750 said:
anyway it can def damage the pokes you mentioned but i'd like to see how much it can do to its counters, mainly mence and heracross, cause I don't know how many of those pokes are staying in on cacturne to eat a sucker punch/seed bomb.
Click to expand...
Ask and you shall receive.

Hmm, I suspect the 16 SpAtk EVs are for OHKOing Mence with HP Ice, but let's see:

78.12-91.97% on standard DD/MixMence (120 Hp EVs)
84.94%-100% on standard CB/SpecsMence (4 Hp EVs)

Hmm, if you want a better chance of OHKOing Mence with HP Ice, you'll need to move some Atk EVs to SpAtk, but I wonder how many Atk EVs you'll need to still 2HKO Cresselia? Eh, it's probably not worth trying to figure out.

Heracross is certainly interesting; every physical move on this Cacturne is resisted, and HP Ice isn't worth considering against it. Still, Sucker Punch does 38.53-45.26% to the standard CB/ScarfCross, so it's not as bad as it seems. That still doesn't mean Cacturne should be staying in on a possible Megahorn. lol
 
What's all that speed for? If I'm correct, Cacturne would have 206 speed. Is that useful for anything important? If not, some of those speed EVs should be delegated to special attack.

252 Atk / 42(28) SAtk / 216(228) Spd

Wouldn't that work a little better?
 
Still wouldn't KO DDMence. Even with 252 EVs in there.

94.74% - 111.63%

So in other words, not a garuntee. However, I could shift it into Special Attack, make him Brave, and suggest using Trick Room Support with him anyways.

CardOfTheHeart said:
That's why "Override" is available as a move option in the calculator. What, you thought the move type, power, and attack type were there just for Hidden Power? XD (Okay, that's a tad harsh.)
Click to expand...
...Yeah. >_>

Anti / Mizuno said:
Not likely Celebi'll attack you, you're immune / resistant to both its stabs. You describe Return as a filler but I don't see it in the set.

Like Anti said, Celebi will never really attack you (unless it carries Hidden Power Fighting, then maybe). Instead, it will use the opportunity to set up Calm Mind/Swords Dance/Substitute and then use Baton Pass. So yeah, Celebi is a pretty big counter to that set.
Click to expand...

Fixed. Put Return in there. Also forgot Celebi would be Swords Dancing / Calm Minding, so I edited that out.

Not being able to 1HKO DDMence 100% of the time makes this a little erm... bad. Really, it does. Urgh. >_>

Bliksem said:
What's all that speed for? If I'm correct, Cacturne would have 206 speed. Is that useful for anything important? If not, some of those speed EVs should be delegated to special attack.

252 Atk / 42(28) SAtk / 216(228) Spd

Wouldn't that work a little better?
Click to expand...
Nope, doesn't make a huge difference. 86.75% - 102.11% on SpecsMence still. Yeah, I can see it better chances to KO it however, so I might just use those for now.

Actually, with Sucker Punch, if you want to factor something, before Intimidate, you're doing 71.99% - 84.64% to SpecsMence, while DDMence gets 66.20% - 77.84%. Still, after Intimidate, it basically worsens. Like I said, Stealth Rock / Spikes support or even Trick Room support can make this a little more reassuring.
 
I think too much emphasis is put on to OHKOing opponents. If Salamence is brought in on another Pokemon and damaged for over 30%, an easy task, probably, Cacturne can be brought in to finish it off. Or, Cacturne can weaken Salamence enough for Donphan to come in and Ice Shard the thing. Or there could be Stealth Rocks flying about.
 
Bliksem said:
I think too much emphasis is put on to OHKOing opponents. If Salamence is brought in on another Pokemon and damaged for over 30%, an easy task, probably, Cacturne can be brought in to finish it off. Or, Cacturne can weaken Salamence enough for Donphan to come in and Ice Shard the thing. Or there could be Stealth Rocks flying about.
Click to expand...
+1
 
Could work I suppose, though it seems it'd really like Stealth Rock support. And Trick Room support. Still, at least he has a niche and can do something...
 
Elminster12 said:
Could work I suppose, though it seems it'd really like Stealth Rock support. And Trick Room support. Still, at least he has a niche and can do something...
Click to expand...
Support? No, it really doesn't. Not every poke is meant to OHKO everything.

It also doesn't need TR support, don't you see all calcs are done on walls? This means it's designed to kill walls.

BTW, I like it. It needs some prediction to however.
 
drew1750 said:
I don't really like sucker punch+choice band as most people aren't attack twice when they see sucker punch. However with life orb you only do

53.57% - 63.10% to Hippowdon (max HP + Def)

which isn't a guaranteed 2hko w/ leftovers.

though you still always 2hko TTar and Slowbro

and while you may be 2HKOing cresselia with Sucker Punch she can moonlight the damage and 2hko you with ice beam

anyway it can def damage the pokes you mentioned but i'd like to see how much it can do to its counters, mainly mence and heracross, cause I don't know how many of those pokes are staying in on cacturne to eat a sucker punch/seed bomb.
Click to expand...

um.........100-53=47+6=53...looks like a 2hko to me...
 
100-53.57=46.43 +6.25=52.68 - That's a 2HKO in my book, too.
(It's not guaranteed when the minimum damage is less than 53.125%; 100-53.125=46.875 +6.25=53.125.)
 
I still prefer swords danced STAB Sucker Punch seeing its one of Cacturne's trump cards...its a OHKO on most neutral things. Though if you want guaranteed ohko's your better off using Absol however Cacturne has Sandstorm immunity which at least gives it a bonus of using Focus Sash.

The other benefit is it can act as anti-sandstorm starter as it has that lovely STAB Seed Bomb or Energy Ball depending on whether you prefer physical/special off a 115 base and I'm pretty sure its possible to EV it to outspeed T-tar and Hippowdon. It'd go somewhat like...

-Enemy sent out T-tar/Hippowdon
-Cacturne was sent out

-Enemy used whatever
-Cacturne survives due to Focus Sash or isn't attacked and uses Swords Dance

-Cacturne ohko's with Seed Bomb and proceeds to rape the next pokemon with a 700+ attack and STAB Sucker Punch before kicking the bucket.
 
Forsety said:
I still prefer swords danced STAB Sucker Punch seeing its one of Cacturne's trump cards...its a OHKO on most neutral things. Though if you want guaranteed ohko's your better off using Absol however Cacturne has Sandstorm immunity which at least gives it a bonus of using Focus Sash.

The other benefit is it can act as anti-sandstormer as it has that lovely STAB Seed Bomb or Energy Ball depending on whether you prefer physical/special off a 115 base.
Click to expand...
It's grass/dark, it isn't immume to sandstorm
 
It does grant Sandstorm immunity. Shoddy just hasn't put it in (like it hasn't put in a crapload of other things).
 
It did in Advance as you might've seen with all the Cacnea on the Desert route, pretty clear Gamefreak intended it that way.

I would probably use max Attack, a tad of Special Attack for HP Ice maybe and the rest just dumped in HP. I think this is more a mix of Cacturne's move options than really a set btw - as chaos put it once it suffers from /eritis.
 
Shiny Crobat said:
Support? No, it really doesn't. Not every poke is meant to OHKO everything.

It also doesn't need TR support, don't you see all calcs are done on walls? This means it's designed to kill walls.

BTW, I like it. It needs some prediction to however.
Click to expand...
I see that. But do you really want to leave stuff like Salamence alive? It doesn't have to set-up before, but preferably before 'Mence can come back in. Seems cleaner, is all I'm saying, rather than having to potential deal with an attack. Of course, setting up SR is easy.

And, since it can get through walls without TR, it can sweep with TR(rather than get revenge-killed or set-up on, depending on what you used to kill.) So, again, that seems to be where it shines. You can kill walls with quite a few pokemon...but Cacturne does it best with TR support....
 
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