Classic Elements

I agree mega Luke is more predictable and we should test it however mixed sets will prevail. Scarf lando t was one of mega Luke's only checks and now ice punch hurts it even more by being special so it's a mixed(pun intended) bag for mega Luke
 
Making it special seems like a bad idea in my opinion. Hidden Power was mention, but I don't feel it is the same thing. The reason why Counter works on Hidden Power despite type is because Hidden Power itself is a Normal-type move.
I don't get your point. Of course the reason Counter works on HP is because it's categorized as a Normal-type move. Since there was no physical/special split back then, there was no independent data to tell you whether a move was physical or special.

I think you guys are forgetting the most important thing here. What does it mean being a "physical move" or a "special move"? How do you test them in game?
You see how they react to Counter/Mirror Coat. The fact that a move is affected by Counter means it's physical. That's literally the only thing all physical moves have in common. The (Special) Attack and (Special) Defense stats have nothing to do with it.

For example, in Gen VI Seismic Toss is a physical move while Night Shade is a special move. What's the difference? They use the exact same damage formula, which doesn't involve Attack or Special Attack.
Seismic Toss is affected by Counter, Night Shade is affected by Mirror Coat. That's the only difference between physical and special moves. That's the only way we know Secret Sword is a special attack that uses the target's Defense and not the other way around. (Of course, that's pretending the game didn't conveniently tell us the category of each move.)
 
Last edited:

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
Should Zekrom be unbanned?
Yes.

Should moves that lower a certain defensive stat (i.e. Flash Cannon, Razor Shell) lower the stat that they correspond with now or lower the one that they did previously?
The new one.

Should Secret Sword be a pure Physical move, or use the Special Attack stat and deal physical damage?
Neither, make it physical and have it do special damage.
 
I don't get your point. Of course the reason Counter works on HP is because it's categorized as a Normal-type move. Since there was no physical/special split back then, there was no independent data to tell you whether a move was physical or special.

I think you guys are forgetting the most important thing here. What does it mean being a "physical move" or a "special move"? How do you test them in game?
You see how they react to Counter/Mirror Coat. The fact that a move is affected by Counter means it's physical. That's literally the only thing all physical moves have in common. The (Special) Attack and (Special) Defense stats have nothing to do with it.

For example, in Gen VI Seismic Toss is a physical move while Night Shade is a special move. What's the difference? They use the exact same damage formula, which doesn't involve Attack or Special Attack.
Seismic Toss is affected by Counter, Night Shade is affected by Mirror Coat. That's the only difference between physical and special moves. That's the only way we know Secret Sword is a special attack that uses the target's Defense and not the other way around. (Of course, that's pretending the game didn't conveniently tell us the category of each move.)
Or you could just check the type of the move to determine this. iirc, Night Shade was affected by Counter before the split, which makes sense because it is a Ghost-type move, which makes it physical. Also, no, what all physical moves have in common is that the damage is based off their physical attack and affects the opponents physical defense, and special moves are based off the special attack and are affected by the special defense. That's not a Pokemon thing - that's how RPGs work (replace "special" with "magic"). Obviously there are exceptions like Seismic Toss and Psyshock, but they are exceptions, and the exception part is stated in the effect. Hidden Power is categorized as a Normal-type move, so it reacted to Counter, because the Normal categorization made it physical. Secret Sword is a Fighting-type move, so it becomes physical. Yes, the effect becomes extremely redundant, but a more logical change would be to make it a physical move that does special damage. Hell, I wouldn't even bother doing that, because in the end it over complicates the entire meta for a single pokemon.
 
Or you could just check the type of the move to determine this. iirc, Night Shade was affected by Counter before the split, which makes sense because it is a Ghost-type move, which makes it physical.
I said "For example, in Gen VI Seismic Toss is a physical move while Night Shade is a special move." Night Shade is a special move in Gen VI. Of course, Night Shade was a physical move in Gen I-III.

Also, no, what all physical moves have in common is that the damage is based off their physical attack and affects the opponents physical defense, and special moves are based off the special attack and are affected by the special defense. That's not a Pokemon thing - that's how RPGs work (replace "special" with "magic"). Obviously there are exceptions like Seismic Toss and Psyshock, but they are exceptions, and the exception part is stated in the effect.
An exception applies to a rule, not to something that all things of a category have in common. That's a contradiction.

Anyway, the point is that just like you can have an exception for Psyshock, a special move that uses the target's Defense, you can have an exception with a physical move that uses the user's Special Attack. It has happened before, it can be done.
There is no reason why Secret Sword should use the user's Attack and the target's Special Defense. Secret Sword exists so that Keldeo, a Pokémon with a good Special Attack stat, can use it to target both sides of the spectrum. It is also a freaking move that uses the user's SpA and the target's Def. And you'd rather change it in something to makes no sense at all (Keldeo wouldn't use it, the move would have nothing in common with how it works now) rather than admit that a physical move can use the user's SpA...
 
Alright, I've made a decision on Secret Sword. Secret Sword will function the way it normally does, using the attacker's Special Attack stat and the target's Defense stat. Since Keldeo is the only mon' who has access to this move, changing it to use the Attack stat will only hurt Keldeo, and since Secret Sword is a unique move, it can be allowed to have unique properties in this metagame.

OP has been updated to reflect the change.

post 100 woo
 
An exception applies to a rule, not to something that all things of a category have in common. That's a contradiction.
Exceptions do not always have to apply to rules, and you're arguing semantics. The point is that physical attacks use the physical attack stat against the physical defense stat unless specifically stated.

Anyway, the point is that just like you can have an exception for Psyshock, a special move that uses the target's Defense, you can have an exception with a physical move that uses the user's Special Attack. It has happened before, it can be done.
There is no reason why Secret Sword should use the user's Attack and the target's Special Defense. Secret Sword exists so that Keldeo, a Pokémon with a good Special Attack stat, can use it to target both sides of the spectrum. It is also a freaking move that uses the user's SpA and the target's Def. And you'd rather change it in something to makes no sense at all (Keldeo wouldn't use it, the move would have nothing in common with how it works now) rather than admit that a physical move can use the user's SpA...
But that would be the only reason to do that is to give Keldeo a good special STAB, and nothing else. In that case, lets make Bolt Strike stay Physical, because Zekrom is the only thing that gets it and it would prefer it stay physical. Also, no, a fighting-type move being special back in gen 1-3 would of been silly, because then why not just do the split in the first place.

Anyways, there is no point in arguing this further I guess, since it has been officially stated that Secret Sword will not change and will stay special.
 
But that would be the only reason to do that is to give Keldeo a good special STAB, and nothing else. In that case, lets make Bolt Strike stay Physical, because Zekrom is the only thing that gets it and it would prefer it stay physical. Also, no, a fighting-type move being special back in gen 1-3 would of been silly, because then why not just do the split in the first place.
The only reason isn't to give Keldeo a good special STAB. A move like Secret Sword didn't and wouldn't have existed before the physical/special split, because a Special Fighting-type move would not have made sense in those circumstances. Secret Sword is a very unique move that shares only shares its effect with two other moves, which both would have been Special Attacks pre-Gen IV. Also, the argument in making Bolt Strike stay physical in this case doesn't hold up because it doesn't have the special effect that Secret Sword does. Zekrom would like to have it be physical, but it's not just because of its typing. Look at Sacred Fire post-split, for example. It doesn't make sense flavor-wise in being a Physical move. So why is it Physical? Because Ho-oh could make better use of it, and no other reason. I see no reason to make Secret Sword a physical move when it has a unique effect. That is why I decided to make it stay the same as. I hope that makes sense.
 
Zam sits in a really odd place. On one hand, it got the Elemental Punches and Knock Off for coverage, replacing the need for Hidden Power. However, it also lost 2 huge coverage moves for it - Focus Blast and Shadow Ball. This means that its best way to hit TTar is Dazzling Gleam / Energy Ball, the former being much more useful in general. Zam would probably run something like this

Alakazam @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch / Fire Punch
On the bright side, pursuit is now special, hitting Alakazam on it's stronger defense and from Tyranitar's weaker attack stat. TTar has to invest heavily in special attack to have a decent chance at OHKO'ing on the switch.
 
Landorus-I: fuk dis gaem instead of special Sheer Force Landorus-I you now have Physical Sheer Force Landorus-I... who still gets the same moves (Earth Power, Focus Miss and Sludge Wave). Also remember that Landorus-I has better Atk than SpA. You literally don't need to run mixed for U-turn anymore. The only thing you lose is HP Ice, but with HP's power nerf it isn't a very appealing option anymore.
You forgot to mention Rock Slide, so it gets psudo-EdgeQuake boosted by Sheer Force, and it has two slots open for Swords Dance, Rock Polish, HP (Ice or Fire), U-Turn, Focus Miss, Sludge Bomb, or even Gravity. I think that it might be worth suspecting at some point.

The only reason isn't to give Keldeo a good special STAB. A move like Secret Sword didn't and wouldn't have existed before the physical/special split, because a Special Fighting-type move would not have made sense in those circumstances.
And that is the exact reason I don't like this decision. Forget the fact it is a Fighting type move, moves like Shadow Ball and Crunch stayed true to their respective typing's damage category, even though it would have made more sense flavor wise for them not too.

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason you want to make it Special is because it would keep Secret Sword usable, and you don't want to see a move with a unique effect become unusable due to poor distribution. If, for example, the rest of "The Swords of Justice" also had access to Secret Sword, you probably would have made it a Physical move that hit the target's Special Defense stat instead of leaving it special, because Terrakon, Cobalion, and Virizion all could make use of its unique effect, which would still fit thematically. While I understand that motivation, I don't think that it's a good reason to not change it.

Also, what about Foul Play? I assume that it will use the target's Special Attack aganst its Special Defense, but that hasn't been explicitly stated yet.
 
Also, what about Foul Play? I assume that it will use the target's Special Attack aganst its Special Defense, but that hasn't been explicitly stated yet.
Foul Play doesn't necessarily need to be changed. For example, Beat Up, which is another Dark-type move that uses an unusual damage formula, used Attack and Defense even before the physical/special split, despite being a special move.
I'm not opposed to change Foul Play, just saying that it's up to preference. A third option is that Foul Play uses the opponent's Attack (because that's its special effect) but the opponent's Special Defense (because it's a Dark-type move).
 
A third option is that Foul Play uses the opponent's Attack (because that's its special effect) but the opponent's Special Defense (because it's a Dark-type move).
I think I like this one the best, since it does follow what the attack says, but also fits in with the lack of split.
 
And that is the exact reason I don't like this decision. Forget the fact it is a Fighting type move, moves like Shadow Ball and Crunch stayed true to their respective typing's damage category, even though it would have made more sense flavor wise for them not too.

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason you want to make it Special is because it would keep Secret Sword usable, and you don't want to see a move with a unique effect become unusable due to poor distribution. If, for example, the rest of "The Swords of Justice" also had access to Secret Sword, you probably would have made it a Physical move that hit the target's Special Defense stat instead of leaving it special, because Terrakon, Cobalion, and Virizion all could make use of its unique effect, which would still fit thematically. While I understand that motivation, I don't think that it's a good reason to not change it.

Also, what about Foul Play? I assume that it will use the target's Special Attack aganst its Special Defense, but that hasn't been explicitly stated yet.
The main reason I kept Secret Sword the way it is that it makes more sense (at least to me) for it to keep its special effect, instead of having it be just another Fighting move. Secret Sword was made that way for a reason, and I'm trying to change as little as possible in this metagame. It's as simple as that. I understand that people won't agree with these decisions, but I'm trying to make decisions that make sense and are healthy for the metagame. It's not like changing Secret Sword would have a huge impact on the meta, but it would be easier for it to remain unchanged.

Also, good catch on Foul Play. I think the way you describe it works the best because it's typing would make it a special move. If there are any outright objections, I would like to hear them, but Foul Play isn't the most important move to get hung up on.
 
I've always wanted a metagame like this! ^_^ My thoughts on some mons:
Greninja - gets Special Water Shuriken now, but otherwise pretty much the same as before
Talonflame - misses Physical Flare Blitz, but could possibly run Overheat to compensate. It's main niche of priority Brave Bird/Acrobatics is still a thing
Mega Charizard X - while it will be running special sets now, its main moves still get boosted by Tough Claws. Unfortunately, Dragon Dance doesn't do much for it anymore. :(
Lucario - now easier to handle since it will mostly be running Physical and occasionally mixed
Empoleon - Defiant means nothing to it now because Aqua Jet is special now and it loses Flash Cannon and Signal Beam as special coverage
Victini - now with special V-Create and Bolt Strike...run everyone!
Dedenne - Play Rough being special now is a godsend for it. Stats still suck though
Roserade - Now a utility-only mon since it lost all of its coverage
Flareon - no longer excited about Flare Blitz
Ampharos - loses Focus Blast and Power Gem as special coverage, but gains Fire Punch and Outrage!
Goodra - special Power Whip, Outrage and Aqua Tail are nice :)
Noivern - nerfed really hard and lost a ton of coverage: Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Air Slash, Hurricane, Boomburst; however, it still has Wild Charge, dragon moves, Flamethrower, Psychic and Dark Pulse
Azumarill, Weavile, Bisharp, others - R.I.P.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
For the whole Special Defense/Physical Defense drop thing, it's worth noting that Shadow Ball always dropped Special Defense even though it used to be a physical move.

I can definitely see a big return of Psychic-types in this OM, what with most Dark and Ghost types being rendered unviable besides Houndoom, Greninja, Hydreigon, Zoroark and maybe Tyranitar for the former and Aegislash, Trevenant, Bannette and Golurk for the latter. A few Bug-types are nerfed too, although Scizor, Heracross and Pinsir are just as threatening.
 
Last edited:
Ok hear me out here, hyper beam is somewhat viable on sylveon and aurorus, pinsir now has a nuke to play with and can potentially be a big threat also having x scissor to deal with the plethora of psychic types
 
I'd rather it not get nominated this month, since there are still a few issues I'm trying to work out and having a public ladder this early would get pretty hectic.

EDIT: Having thought about many of those issues, I have come to some conclusions. Some of these may not be final because I want to see what everyone thinks.

Zekrom and Lucarionite are unbanned for the time being. These two have been on the fence since I conceived the meta, and I think it would be better to discuss the meta with these two included. When it becomes playable and if they turn out to be broken in practice, I'll re-ban them.

Foul Play will use the target's Special Attack stat. I don't want to get caught up on specific moves too much. Since Dark-type moves are special, Foul Play will use Special Attack instead of Attack. It's that simple.

Moves that have a chance to lower a specific defensive stat will lower stat they now correspond with. Again, not really a huge issue. Since the majority of these moves only have a small chance to drop stats, it won't be the most relevant part of the discussion. Shadow Ball was the only exception before the Physical/Special split, so it will continue to lower Special Defense. Here are lists of all the moves that lower an opponent's defenses. For the sake of completion, I'm including every move whether or not it was changed. Changed moves will be in bold.

List of Defense lowering moves:
Acid
Acid Spray
Bug Buzz

Crush Claw
Earth Power
Flash Cannon
Focus Blast

Iron Tail
Rock Smash

List of Special Defense lowering moves:
Crunch
Energy Ball
Luster Purge
Psychic
Seed Flare
Shadow Ball

Now, I'd like to move discussion away from specific moves, and towards actual threats in the metagame. Unless you have a serious problem with the move-based decisions, please refrain from discussing them as they are small problems in hindsight.
 
Last edited:

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Here is a list of what I think will be improved Pokemon :
  • Alakazam and Reuniclus seem like pretty big threats, due to their hugely improved typing.
  • Cresselia could be pretty great, especially since this metagame will probably be kinder to stallers than sweepers.
  • Psychic-Steel types look quite good again due to the lack of good Ghost/Dark, but need to watch out for Earthquake and Fire Blast which will probably be very predominant.
  • Houndoom is much better, able to carry Darkglasses with Sucker Punch, Pursuit, Fire Blast and Dark Pulse/Nasty Plot. Shame it doesn't get Knock Off.
  • Golurk might acually be good since it gains Shadow Ball and can abuse No Guard Dynamicpunch.
  • Nidoking has Earth Power, Poison Jab, Focus Blast, and Rock Slide to go fully physical.
  • Scizor loses only Knock Off and gains HP Rock or Fighting.
  • Keldeo gains priority.
That's all I can think of right now.
 
Here is a list of what I think will be improved Pokemon :
  • Alakazam and Reuniclus seem like pretty big threats, due to their hugely improved typing.
  • Cresselia could be pretty great, especially since this metagame will probably be kinder to stallers than sweepers.
  • Psychic-Steel types look quite good again due to the lack of good Ghost/Dark, but need to watch out for Earthquake and Fire Blast which will probably be very predominant.
  • Houndoom is much better, able to carry Darkglasses with Sucker Punch, Pursuit, Fire Blast and Dark Pulse/Nasty Plot. Shame it doesn't get Knock Off.
  • Golurk might acually be good since it gains Shadow Ball and can abuse No Guard Dynamicpunch.
  • Nidoking has Earth Power, Poison Jab, Focus Blast, and Rock Slide to go fully physical.
  • Scizor loses only Knock Off and gains HP Rock or Fighting.
  • Keldeo gains priority.
That's all I can think of right now.
Nidoking's learnset said:
Nidoking learns Sludge Wave.
lol
 
Seem familiar, anyone? Just like OU, only no Ice Punch or Crunch off of physical attack.

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified (Adaptability upon mega-evolution)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spd
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake / Stone Edge / Shadow Claw / ExtremeSpeed / Poison Jab / Bullet Punch
- Earthquake / Stone Edge / Shadow Claw / ExtremeSpeed / Poison Jab / Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top