Gen 2 Cloyster (OU Revamp) [QC]

#1


http://www.smogon.com/dex/gs/pokemon/cloyster/
Based on a Lavos skeleton and fleshed out by me.

[OVERVIEW]

Cloyster is one of the most used Pokémon in OverUsed. It is one of only two OU Pokemon that can effectively lay Spikes. As a Spikes user Cloyster boasts a decently powerful Surf and Explosion. These two moves in conjunction give it the ability to support its team offensively once Spikes are on the field. Cloyster also has a decent speed, which it can use to outrun and Explode on threats like Exeggutor, Vaporeon, Machamp, that its main competition, Forretress, cannot. Cloyster's better offensive synergy, STAB, and more dangerous Explosion are the primary reasons to use it over Forretress as a Spikes setter.

However Cloyster doesn't outclass Forretress in any case. It still has several glaring weaknesses. Cloyster's low HP and Special Defense, combined with a lack of recovery outside of Leftovers prevent it from taking more than a handful of attacks before being KOed. Forretress has more defensive staying power because of key resistances to Psychic- and Normal-type attacks, an immunity to Toxic, and only one weakness. Forretress has one other major selling point over Cloyster which is Hidden Power Bug. Starmie is one of the most prominent spinners in OU, and with Hidden Power Bug Forretress can nail an important 2HKO after one round of Spikes damage. However, despite Cloyster's issues, it can still provide unique advantages as a Spikes user and should never be overlooked for a spot on either offensive or defensive teams.

[SET]

Offensive Spikes setter

Item : Leftovers
- Surf
- Explosion / Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Spikes

[SET COMMENTS]

The main reason to use Cloyster is because this is the best spiker in the tier and can set up safely on most physical attackers. The combination of Surf + Toxic allows it to threaten all the rock and ground types as well as Snorlax or other things like Starmie coming in to spin. Send your Cloyster into physical attacker or wall, set up Spikes, fire away with Surf or Toxic, and switch out when the opponent brings in one of Cloyster's counters. Explosion forces the opponent to be careful sending in Cloyster's checks such as Raikou or Zapdos. Cloyster can also learn Rapid Spin, it sacrifices the threat of boom for Spikes war advantage. However it is not possible to run both Explosion and Rapid Spin in the same moveset. Which means you have to do a choice on what is needed for your team.

[OTHER OPTIONS]

Hidden Power Electric is almost a 2HKO on other Cloyster but means you can’t Toxic important stuff like Starmie and Snorlax. Ice Beam + HP Elec counters other offensive teams but leaves Cloyster very vulnerable to Forretress. HP Fire is an option to nail Forretress but it lowers the HP DVs significantly enough that an observant opponent can notice the set before it’s revealed. Screech + Clamp is a rare but potent combo that can target Snorlax attempting to Curse in Cloy’s face.

[CHECKS & COUNTERS]

Almost everything that outspeeds Cloyster can threaten it, prime examples being Zapdos and Raikou which OHKO with a STAB move. Cloyster can’t kill Starmie one-on-one without using Explosion, and Starmie outspeeds and spins, so they often end up trading. Cloyster is vulnerable to status, paralysis or sleeping can be crippling as it prevents the relatively fast Explosion which is what makes Cloyster really shine in most games. Forretress loses to Cloyster but can still chip it down with Giga Drain, and it can run Spikes + Rapid Spin unlike Cloyster which means dealing with it should be a priority.
 
#2
Great analysis, congratulations.

Rest can be added in OO maybe. I think you would only use it on a Rapid Spin Cloyster alongside a beller on a stall team in order to get more use of his defensive utility, even though it's pretty much outclassed by Suicune in this regard despite being a little bit bulkier on the physical side, and the loss of Toxic on this kind of team can make Starmie and Misdreavus annoying, but still. I also think that Ice Beam and HP Electric are common enough to be slashed on the set, the former allows Cloyster to threaten dangerous powerhouse like Zapdos, Exeggutor and Dragonite and the only target you really miss being Forretress and to a lesser extent Steelix, the latter still can't do much back besides exploding but this is generally a waste of Steelix lure potential.

Talking about Misdreavus, I think that she deserves a place in C&C alongside Gengar. Unlike Steel types, they can actually put heavy pressure on Cloyster with their respective Electric moves while being immune to Explosion and Rapid Spin, so their simple presence can sometimes limit Cloyster to set up Spikes and either missing some important target with Explosion or getting rid of opponent's Spikes. It's true that neither Gar or Missy are excellent at countering Cloyster, the former cannot switch more than twice on Surf and the latter absolutely despises Toxic, but they're still crippling enough to be mentionned. Although not extremely common, Tentacruel should be added too since non HP Electric variant are set up fodder for him, unless you decide to explode on a Sub which is obviously not worthy.

Again, good job.
 

Lavos

totalselfhatred
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#3
@ above post: ice beam/hp electric should solely be used as a counterteaming measure against an opponent who never uses forry, if you happen to lack surf and run into one it's very bad news since cloy should otherwise be counted on to win that situation. hence I dislike giving it a slash on the main set

rest is really hard to use in the fast meta, even with a beller it's hard to justify, at this point you're often better off with starmie, maybe it warrants an OO mention though.

this analysis captures the essence of Cloy, it's short and sweet. good work, consider it QC'd
 

Oglemi

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Secret Boss Mod
#4
I guess my question is: what does this analysis offer over the one that's currently onsite? What information is changing, or is wrong on the one onsite? If it's simply a matter of metagame trends, ie the defensive set falling out of favor to this standard one, I'd rather add a sentence to it onsite saying that it's out of favor rather than discarding it entirely, etc.

Like, I'm all for concision, but Lockeness's analysis onsite isn't exactly too wordy (it is wordy but I don't think overly-so, especially since a lot of it is also Jorgen's info) if that's the perceived issue here. If there's info that needs changing I would rather that info be presented and the onsite analysis edited to update it and make it relevant, rather than rewriting it and discarding the one with almost 3x as much info.
 

Lavos

totalselfhatred
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#5
the whole point of doing these is to make them NOT overly wordy and a pain in the ass to read. GSC is a 17 year old metagame with an extremely small playerbase, people are browsing these analyses to familiarize themselves with the state of the game, not to experience smogon's greatest literary talent.

beyond that, this analysis is way different than the onsite one and I think even a cursory glance clearly reveals that. it compresses the "offensive" and "defensive" sets into one true version of cloyster, because they never should have been separated in the first place, and removes extremely outdated information while recommending the consistent best option to new players and displaying various options that work in niche cases/have worked in the past but aren't fully viable now.

you can expect at least 10 more GSC analyses to appear here in the near future, and in my opinion (and the opinion of most involved old gen players) they are desperately needed in many cases. old gen analyses as a whole are incredibly neglected on site and we are doing our part to improve them.
 
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Oglemi

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Secret Boss Mod
#6
I mean, the reason I asked was because I clicked the link to the one onsite that's in the OP and noticed that there was a lot of the same information in the overview and didn't look like the set was changing that much. Turns out, the Overview in the OP is basically the same one that's onsite... unless it was edited recently that's pretty blatant plagiarism unless otherwise noted.

op said:
[OVERVIEW]

Cloyster is one of the most used Pokémon in OverUsed. It is one of only two OU Pokemon that can effectively lay Spikes. As a Spikes user Cloyster boasts a decently powerful Surf and Explosion. These two moves in conjunction give it the ability to support its team offensively once Spikes are on the field. Cloyster also has a decent speed, which it can use to outrun and Explode on threats like Exeggutor, Vaporeon, Machamp, that its main competition, Forretress, cannot. Cloyster's better offensive synergy, STAB, and more dangerous Explosion are the primary reasons to use it over Forretress as a Spikes setter.

However Cloyster doesn't outclass Forretress in any case. It still has several glaring weaknesses. Cloyster's low HP and Special Defense, combined with a lack of recovery outside of Leftovers prevent it from taking more than a handful of attacks before being KOed. Forretress has more defensive staying power because of key resistances to Psychic- and Normal-type attacks, an immunity to Toxic, and only one weakness. Forretress has one other major selling point over Cloyster which is Hidden Power Bug. Starmie is one of the most prominent spinners in OU, and with Hidden Power Bug Forretress can nail an important 2HKO after one round of Spikes damage. However, despite Cloyster's issues, it can still provide unique advantages as a Spikes user and should never be overlooked for a spot on either offensive or defensive teams.
onsite said:
Overview
Cloyster's purpose in OU revolves around one move--Spikes. Cloyster is one of only two OU Pokemon that can effectively lay Spikes, thereby dealing 12.5% damage per switch-in on all Pokemon, barring Flying-types. As a Spikes user, Cloyster boasts a decently powerful Surf and Explosion. These two moves in conjunction give it the ability to support its team offensively once Spikes are on the field. Cloyster also has decent Speed, which it can use to outrun and Explode on threats that its main competition, Forretress, cannot. Cloyster's better offensive synergy, STAB, and more dangerous Explosion are the primary reasons to use it over Forretress as a Spikes setter.
While Cloyster shines in its niche role as a user of both Spikes and Rapid Spin, it still has several glaring weaknesses. Cloyster's low HP and Special Defense, combined with a lack of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers, prevent it from taking more than a handful of attacks before being KOed. Forretress has more defensive staying power because of key resistances to Psychic- and Normal-type attacks, an immunity to Toxic, and only one weakness. Forretress has one other major selling point over Cloyster--Hidden Power Bug. Starmie is one of the most prominent spinners in OU, and with Hidden Power Bug Forretress can nail an important 2HKO after one round of Spikes damage. However, despite Cloyster's issues, it can still provide unique advantages as a Spikes user and should never be overlooked for a spot on either offensive or defensive teams.

Like, OK I get the point on combining the two sets and cutting unneeded information, fair. I'm glad there's a desire to update the analyses onsite. Not gonna pretend that Lockeness was super intuned with the metagame and even if he was, they are several years old.

My point is, instead of chucking what's there entirely, would it be possible to edit or just rewrite certain sections? You keep more info that way while also updating the necessary parts. It's always easier to cut info out and edit than it is to start from scratch and add info, you'd be saving more time and hit more of the analyses that way.
 

Oglemi

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Secret Boss Mod
#7
In this case specifically, cutting the defensive set entirely and editing the offensive set, renaming it to standard, and editing the moveset would be more than sufficient, yes? Cutting out outdated info like most mentions of Blissey and some of the stuff of Missy onsite, replacing OO and editing C&C seems more efficient.

Unneeded loss of relevant information is what I'm concerned about. If you're worried about things still being too wordy, place what needs to be said in the first paragraph of the set, no one that's reading the analyses that's doing it to brush up on the state of the meta is going to read past the first one anyway, that extra info is for noobies.
 
#8
Remove the mentions of Forretress in the intro those arent fit for a description of Cloyster but moreso one of Forretress. Since we are dealing with Cloyster here the focus should lie on the strength and weaknesses of it instead of its options.
Highlight Cloysters advantages and its few downsides like being able to set Spikes vs a good majority of OU + its offensive threat level due to having Explosion complementing its good stabs.

Icy Wind definitely deserves a mention in OO as does Rest because both are niche options that provide real value for certain teams.
Icy Wind lets Cloyster keep Spikes vs Starmie if played right and the speed drop comes in handy sometimes although the drop in power is more than noticeable (doesnt 2hko Zapdos like IBeam does for example).
Ice Beam is more than a joke mention but should only ever be considered on teams that either struggle heavily vs. Exeggutor or teams that have other tricks up their sleeve to beat Forretress (a Ghost, surprise Fire-Moves). On this tangent Ice Beam + HP[Fire] + Boom is actually a cool Cloyster to use if your team is adept at abusing Starmie/opposing Cloys.

Quite honestly the on-site analysis of Cloyster is more than fine, more fleshed out + has several mentions of good synergistic cores. I think Cloyster doesnt need a new analysis considering the old one is still good, mentions most of the important stuff and was written by Jorgen himself. Maybe add a couple techs in OO but thats about it. That isnt to say you didnt do a decent job here just pointing out that the on-site analysis is more then adequate.
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
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#9
Condensing the two sets currently on-site into one isn't the worst idea in the world. They both do the same shit. I mostly split them up because I didn't want to keep writing "explosion cloyster does blah and rapid spin cloyster does blah" over and over when writing about preferred teammates lol. And also because that's how the OLD old analysis did it. But if the aim is to cut down on the detail (which I'm on board with frankly, I was uncomfortable with how long these were when it shipped and the main feedback I got was "no no it's good") then you'll have to do less of that anyway.
 

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