Conkeldurr [All-Out Attacker] [GP 2/2]

[BurningMan]

thunderpunch & ice punch have secondary effects, therefore are boosted by sheer force, therefore do not take LO recoil

My point was that its stabs don't and only its coverage moves actually benefit from Sheer Force.

 

[ginganinja]

I think we should just keep that set in OO it is really not that great and the fact that your Stabs don't get a Sheer Force boost and take LO recoil makes it painfully obvious you are not using Guts unless you predict a switch-in. It is cool to nail Skarmory, Jellicent and Gyarados with T-Punch but outside of that i don't see much advantage compared to the Guts Flame Orb set that not only boosts up all your moves, but also grants you an immunity to status.

The draw is the powerful coverage attacks that Conkeldurr often lacks. While it is true that your main attacks take Life Orb Recoil, this usually isn't that much of a deal, when Drain Punch is healing you, and Mach Punch is being used sparingly. The advantage of a boosted Thunder Punch and Ice Punch are very welcome, especially with Landorus-T | Jellicent increasing in usage and being the standard Conk checks out there.

The downside you mentioned was it revealing the lack of Guts, this is a fair issue, but a small one in practise. The mere presence of Conkeldurr on your team discourages status moves being thrown out casually. Once Conk has attacked with a STAB move, you are correct, the game is up, but by then Conkeldurr has switched in successfuly, and smashed something with Drain Punch. You are welcome to try and burn it now - assuming you kept your burner alive against a possible Guts Conkeldurr.

Worth noting that nothing really in your argument makes it OO worthy. Its not outclassed by Flame Orb as the 2 sets are very different and BOTH are effective (as demonstrated when several QC members tested this set.

Can we stop arguing about this now since its (effectively) passed QC and further discussion is pretty much moot.

 

[alexwolf]

Iron Fist should either be slashed after Sheer Force or get a mention in AC. While you lose 10% of power on your coverage moves and gain recoil when using them, you gain an important 20% boost on your STAB moves, especially Mach Punch, making Conkedlurr a much stronger revenge killer.

 

[Lavos]

if one of the main draws of the sheer force set is bluffing cb i would be hesitant to use iron fist instead. however you're correct in saying that the power boost on both stab moves is generally more useful than the boost on your two coverage moves, since they're meant to be hitting for se damage anyways. put it in ac i guess

 

[alexwolf]

CB Conkeldur is non-existent and almost nobody would expect a CB Conk over a LO one when not seeing recoil on Conk's moves and no Lefties. There is no surprise factor involved, just the lack of LO recoil. Imo Iron Fist is good enough to be slashed after Sheer Force, as Iron Fist Mach Punch is really strong, but let's see what others think...

 

[ginganinja]

put it in AC personally.

 

[Lavos]

uhhhh alexwolf what are you talking about? cb conk was definitely a thing for a brief period of time, wouldn't be surprised if it still was on the showdown ladder since that's a few months behind the current trends. i saw it used in some spl match and i used it in fan favorites too (and it wasn't half bad). please don't call things nonexistent when that's simply incorrect. maybe after this set gets more popular, then you can say surprise isn't a factor, but until then...

 

[alexwolf]

Ok let me rephrase then. From my experience on the ladder, CB Conkeludr is non-existent and not a threat. Not once in my playtesting experience i met someone who thought that Conk was choiced, and even if they had fell for the bluff, any player who knows what is doing is going to understand that Conk is not choiced from the damage output. So the bluffing factor does not exist and shouldn't be mentioned as a pro of this set.

 

[ginganinja]

Not once in my playtesting experience i met someone who thought that Conk was choiced, and even if they had fell for the bluff, any player who knows what is doing is going to understand that Conk is not choiced from the damage output. So the bluffing factor does not exist and shouldn't be mentioned as a pro of this set.

Funny you should say that. I noticed an upsurge of Conkeldurr on the ladder recently, and obvious they were all sheer Force. The abusing thing is, I actually ran into a CB Conkeldurr, suspected it was Sheer Force, and was nuked later in the match, The point is CB Conk is not non-existent (which is what Lavos is saying and I agree with him). I agree that the bluff thing can be toned down, although it still needs to be mentioned somewhere.

 

[Soul Fly]

Nobody actively tries to burn conkeldurr...NOW.

What if this set becomes the standard? as far as I recall, Conkeldurr is usually either lefties or Status orb and you can tell as soon as he comes in (Not that you try to status a Status orb mon, lol).If it's the standard and I see no lefties, i'm going to go ahead and burn. Worst-case scenario is usually Band, which i can play around and is in OO, or i statused before Orb activates. The only way to hide it is with no weather/hazards, or with a death switch-in. Not only that, but i'll be able to tell as soon as it attacks, so at best it's hiding itself for one turn. (Either from LO recoil or superstrong Sheer Force attacks).

If you're not using Drain Punch/Mach Punch you're effectively bluffing Band+Iron fist (similar damage output) which is quite easy to considering Bolt-Beam has p-good neutral/SE coverage. It's actually the same principle with EB Keldeo. It could always be running specs + SE move, but you never know for sure until you're done scouting.

And i don't think it makes sense to approve a set if it'll be much less effective once everyone knows it exists. I don't even think it's a question of, like, say, expert belt Keldeo, which I might know exists but it could easily still be scarf until it hits se, etc. Once this is standard, I will always be able to figure it out. More to the point, I think most of us here will, and most good/medium players will.

Irrelevant. Metagame goes in cycles. Let's say (hypothetically) that it becomes popular, people start counter teaming this, then the other guts set will become a surprise status wreaker. People bluff standard sets all the time till they become the new favourites and the old ones then make a comeback once everyone expects the new deal. That's the nature of the meta, doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve an analysis.

 

[tehy]

Not sure why you quoted me, but thanks. Kinda late on that train to be singling me out. But I wanted to articulate my thoughts on this matter a little more.

It won't change either way but:

Firstly, CB set doesn't run Thunderpunch afaik. So you can only bluff with Ice Punch. Even with iron fist, which is worse because... you know... guts lets you get 50% boost and burn immune, which coincidentally lets you come in on jellicent and bulky waters that can't hurt you much. (I mean CB iron fist, btw.)

Secondly, any other set (I.e. listed sets) is either Lefties or Status orb, so I know within a turn if I have any kind of residual damage, or as soon as you switch in if I have any residual damage. Keldeo could be Specs or Scarf and you can't tell if it switches in. It could still be scarf if it doesn't hit SE, and it even could be scarf and high rolling if it does.

It's not at all irrelevant, because a good set doesn't have such a dramatic drop-off once people figure it out. This is the difference between your genuine bluffs/good ideas and your one-off surprises. If i'm aware that Keldeo might be expert belt, I'll check, but that's not costless and you can still hide it. I also don't know right off. With conk, I KNOW. Or at least, I will in like a month or so. I'd also like to point out that you are at best bluffing an insanely rare set. Scarf keldeo is not rare and neither is Specs, although you bluff that worse.

Finally, if I act that way when it's popular and get burned occasionally by a CB conk, i'll still act that way. At that point, CB conk would be a good set to take advantage, and analysis-worthy. You actually describe why it's not a good set-it's taking advantage of lack of knowledge, and once it does so, it'll be worse IMO.

*shrugs* I mean, it's been qc approved 2/3. So this argument is mostly pointless anyhow, and it might be a good enough set on its own merits to be worth using. It's not really any good against me personally and I think it's worse than other sets, but I might be wrong about that part.

 

[alexwolf]

ginga, as i said again, the difference in damage between the CB and this set makes any potential surprise factor irrelevant, so please let's stop with this matter.

 

[BKC]

i think you guys are forgetting that this set isn't striving to be the ultimate choice bluff, its appeal is the ability to smash some common checks while hitting hard as fuck. who cares if burns now neutralize it? none of the burn mons are good conk switchins (jellicent gets lured in and owned by tpunch, sableye gets hit hard by ice/tpunch on the switch, rotomw/heatran never switch in on conk in the first place, which leaves... the relatively uncommon mew, who can still be hit relatively hard with ice/tpunch on the switch). the potential cb bluff is a bonus, not a requirement for the set to work.

 

[alexwolf]

I never said that it is required for the set to be effective, i just said that there is no bluff whatsoever.

 

[Vert]

While the bluff is rare, the damage input good be enough to make the opponent wary of burning a CB + Iron Fist hits pretty hard and by burning that, you have a possibility of Guts as an ability, which means you'll have to deal with +2 Conkeldurr which just sucks. Most bulky water that want to burn with Scald are safe due to Thunderpunch and as a I will include most of the AC changes shortly, max speed can get past these common bulky walls like Jellicent for example and nuke them with the appropriate coverage move. Can we stop this bluff discussion? Some players actually find existent, it is only the icing on the cake.

 

[Vert]

This is written and ready for its final QC Check. This is my first written analysis or whatever you call new sets, so... idk what to say.

__________________
Double Signature, like a boss

 

[Shurtugal]

There's a lot of problems with this analysis.

1. This thing is sold as a wallbreaker and not what it's truly supposed to do: Trick Room sweeper. I feel that the fact that this thing is a star in TR should be the first and foremost thing that should be mentioned (and heavily encouraged to use in TR). Great, you mentioned OTR Reuniclus, but that's not really promoting TR as much as I would like (since it's only a partner, not a playstyle). Everyone has had success with it because they've tried TTar / Reu / Conk, but Conk is not as great as he should be without TR and I'll tell you why: it's bulk is not that great as it needs to be without TR support. Drain punch heals, but if you can't heal in time (switch ins, mis predictions, tanks a U-turn, etc.), or tank that one attack you need to, he often ends up dying much earlier than most would like (at least, if he doesn't have a TR partner).


2. Status Orb is really bad. I personally have never found many opportunities to "spam" Drain Punch, which case I can heal all that health I'm losing. Conkeldurr takes LOTS of damage from spikes, and SR + 1Spike is really common in OU right now. Status Orb + Sand Damage (if any) + Hazards really hampers on it's ability to do much of anything. Also, Payback is really lackluster under TR, which is another reason I don't like Status Orb (the calcs show that Sheer Force does more with ThunderPunch, and Payback only OHKO's if it goes last). I can see how Status Orb might be better without TR, but it remains that Sheer Force is best at spamming its power under TR, and should be mentioned that it does it better than any other Conk set.

3. Scizor, Jirachi, and Forretress are mentioned as viable physical walls..... when you could just slash Fire Punch with Mach Punch. In TR, I find myself using Mach less and less, and Fire Punch is nice to have when you want to fuck Jirachi, Forrey, or Scizor, so I suggest a slash on Mach Punch over an OO mention.

4. Mention these calcs:

252Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr (+Atk) ThunderPunch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Gengar (Neutral): 92% - 109% (243 - 286 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 55% chance to OHKO. OHKO'd after SR damage

252Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latias (Neutral): 115% - 136% (350 - 412 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

252Atk Life Orb -1 Sheer Force Conkeldurr (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 4HP/0Def Landorus Therian (Neutral): 146% - 173% (468 - 556 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

252Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr (+Atk) ThunderPunch vs 252HP/252Def Water Absorb Jellicent (+Def): 71% - 84% (290 - 342 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Easily worn down with some hazard support or V-Switch / U-turning for the OHKO, especially since its hard to keep Jellicent bulky midgame / lategame, and ultimately you could predict the switch in too.)


252Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 4HP/252Def Celebi (Neutral): 73% - 87% (252 - 298 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO [OHKO'ed after SR and Spikes].

The point is this: Conkeldurr murders under TR. It has enough bulk to live most priority if you can keep its HP in check. If this pokemon is used outside of TR, it struggles to survive to kill most of the shit you want it to. Granted, Wish support alongside U-turning / V-Switching could make this work as well, but I would ultimately suggest Status Orb or Leftovers BU Conk for most of these teams anyway.

252Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr (+Atk) Fire Punch vs 4HP/0Def Jirachi (Neutral): 94% - 110% (322 - 378 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 64% chance to OHKO. (OHKO'd after SR)

Please slash Fire Punch

Also, please mention that if this thing is used in TR, TTar's abilities are really unnecessary since Conk can kill (mostly) all of its checks and counters after some hazard damage under TR.


EDIT:

On the note of bluffing: it can be mentioned, but be sure to tone it down. Keldeo has much more success at bluffing with EB than anything else in OU atm. Bluffing with Conk (if pulled successfully) will only manage to get you a surprise hit or so; it's not actually killing off things it normally wouldn't (whereas Keldeo fucks Celebi, Lati twins, etc. if it pulls off its bluff that normally beat it otherwise, so naturally that'd be the pros of using EB Keldeo, whereas there really isn't a pro to bluffing with Conk and more of an unexpected hit, and a good player can play around such things. It's possible, but I really wouldn't advertise this at the sets purpose when it's purpose should be TR Sweeper, for reasons mentioned above).

Basically, what BKC said.

Also, I'd mention how much this thing seriously hates walking in on a Scald and getting burned. I would mention it at least three times so people get the point :[

People underestimate Conk's insurance when using Guts. I've found that not using Guts has left me prone to Scald burns or random Toxics from Chansey / Blissey, etc. (Especially since I mentioned earlier how much Spikes damage with SR does to this thing).

 

[alexwolf]

Agreed with Shurtugal! This thing murders under TR and Fire Punch should be used on teams with a TR partner that don't have a big need for priority, as OHKOing Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, and Jirachi with some previous damage is pretty useful.

Slash it after Fire Punch though, as Mach Punch has more general utility.

TR Reuniclus is one good partner that is already mentioned, while TR Slowking is another great stand alone TR sweeper that has the added benefit of checking rain teams, which Conkeldurr struggles against if TR is not up.

And once again, no to the bluffing mention, unless we want to assume that the opponents are idiots that don't do damage calculations.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

The fact that a Conkeldurr can OHKO Landorus with Ice Punch or 2HKO foes such as Jellicient and Celebi is something that every player should probably know. Also, damage calcs tend to take up a lot of space because there is a separate line for each one, and in this case, nothing is something that I am shocked about, so it's kind of a waste. I'd skip the calcs to be honest.

Although its really good in Trick Room, I don't think that should be considered as its primary role, as Conkeldurr itself is more common than every single Trick Room user in the game, and on the viability thread, its only behind one of them (Reuniclus). It's more of a wallbreaker really in my opinion because of how much it hits hard and it can keep itself alive, so I don't think when Trick Room is added that that quality should have such a heavy emphasis when only one Pokemon in OU commonly uses Trick Room, and it happens to be barely hanging on - if that's its primary role it comes off as too specialized and people may try to avoid it because of how uncommon dedicated Trick Room is. Conkeldurr would also only have 3 turns to sweep the foe at best.

Just my thoughts.

 

[ginganinja]

1. This thing is sold as a wallbreaker and not what it's truly supposed to do: Trick Room sweeper. I feel that the fact that this thing is a star in TR should be the first and foremost thing that should be mentioned (and heavily encouraged to use in TR). Great, you mentioned OTR Reuniclus, but that's not really promoting TR as much as I would like (since it's only a partner, not a playstyle).

a mention of OTR Rank quite frankly, is good enough imo. Dedicated TR teams are difficult to build well and obviously have their own flaws associated with them. Its also the opinion of QC that you don't NEED Trick Room to be truely effective, it can help (hence the OTR mention) but its not essential (hence no full TR team mention). I really really really don't want to hype up Conkeldurr needing a dedicated TR team when in my testing I didn't find it 100% needed. It shouldn't be primary support, and thats my person opinion on the matter.

Failing that I agree with Swamp Rocket.

 

[alexwolf]

Guys nobody said that this thing should be used on TR teams, just that a TR sweeper partner works fantastic with it. In the same vein that Nasty Plot Baton Pass Celebi and Choice Scarf Keldeo are absolutely amazing partners but don't absolutely need to be paired together, the same is true for Conkeldurr and the two TR sweepers. Fire Punch is also there not only for teams that have a TR partner, but for teams that want to OHKO Ferrothorn before it can set up hazards, OHKO Forretress instead of getting checked by it all the while it sets up hazards on your face, and potentially OHKO Jirachi, a huge threat to many teams that Drain Punch just can't deal with quick enough, especially when considering how nasty Iron Head can be.

So to summarize what i said, mention TR sweepers (Reuniclus and Slowking) in the AC and stress how they work amazing with this set, but don't say they are mandatory.

 

[Jukain]

Note throughout that the move is written ThunderPunch not Thunderpunch.

<p>Although this set may seem inferior to the Status Orb set, the main draw of this set is its stronger coverage moves and lack of recoil this set suffers from. While it is true that its STAB doesn't get the Sheer Force boost causing Conkeldurr to take recoil damage, Drain Punch will heal the excess damage and Mach Punch will be used sparingly. The presence of Team Preview also helps, discouraging the opponent to use status inflicting moves such as Toxic and Will-O-Wisp.</p>

I don't think this is sufficient to explain the purpose of this set. You don't explain its various roles, such as punching holes in the opponent, sweeping under Trick Room, etc. The second bit is entirely irrelevant as well.

and the latter is handy versus bulky ground- and grass-types; most Celebi and Landorus-T (after Intimidate) are OHKOed after Stealth Rock.

These aren't the right targets to mention for Ice Punch. Why are you leaving Conkeldurr in on a Celebi ever, for instance? Landorus-T is fine, and I'd add Hippowdon, Dragonite, and I guess Gliscor (it's rare) as targets.

Mach Punch is used rarely and is meant to chip off the last portion of the opponent's health without having to take a hit.

I don't see how this could be true. There are numerous situations where I would find Mach Punch being useful; for instance against Weavile and Kyurem-B. Conkeldurr is pretty damn strong, so I don't see why Mach Punch would see such limited use. Also, having to "chip off the last portion of the opponent's health" is pretty damn common.

Conkeldurr struggles to defeat physical walls such as Forretress, so it is ideal to have a pokemon that can remove these counters.

First of all, Forretress is an abysmal example of a physical wall. Secondly, Conkeldurr doesn't really struggle to get past physical walls. Hippowdon can't even do anything to it while being hit for a sizable chunk by Ice Punch, though I guess you can call it a decent counter. Slowbro even takes a sizable amount from ThunderPunch. Jellicent isn't going to want to burn it out of fear for it being Guts. Landorus-T is nailed by Ice Punch. Ferrothorn is nailed by Drain Punch. What physical walls are handling it? There's plenty of defensive checks, but many of them aren't these typical physical walls.

 

[alexwolf]

Take away 20 EVs from SpD and put them to Speed. They allow Conkeldurr to outspeed and 2HKO Hippo with Ice Punch before it has a chance to do anything back.

Also, mention in the AC a spread of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe with an Adamant nature, in order to outspeed Skarmory, Jellicent, defensive Politoed, Specs Politoed, and CB Scizor, all of which can be OHKO-2HKOed by Conkeldurr and seriously threaten it back if they play first.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

QC APPROVED 3/3

I don't think it's worth complaining about the whole 252 Atk / 252 Spe thing but yeah! Cool set, cool analysis. Let's avoid more debate, please.

 

[Vert]

Thanks AG! This is almost done and will be ready for GP soon. Ready for GP