I noticed in the 3rd generation tier list Kadabra, Haunter, and Chansey were in the Borderline Tier and some Pokemon like the likes of Magmar, Electabuzz, Gligar, and several other Pokemon were in the Underused Tier so can we perhaps update that and possible mabye see some movesets for them one day. As for Monferno I have a hard time trying to figure it from being Underused or Borderline since it is a Mini-Infernape.
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Considering putting some NFE Pokemon into the UU or BL Tier
- Thread starter Lucario17
- Start date
I had the same feeling about monferno, maybe someone has some experience using him in UU and showing some results or observations?
Who agreed? I think this is still a hotly contested topic, especially considering all the radical changes that people have proposed of what OU, and tier lists in general, should mean.
I like the sentiment where every tier produces that maximum amount of playable pokemon. This means that yeah, every single NFE that's any sort of good would need to be tested.
I don't like the notion that UU should be as starkly different from OU as possible. Just by playing a tier that's not OU, your playing something different from OU. There's a really wishy-washy argument of people who say playing with Scyther is A-ok while playing with something like Charmeleon is absolutely ludicrous.
*Ninja-edit, I just read the official UU thread and it says any talks about tiers should go in there. My bad
There will never be separate analyses for Pokemon like Monferno, because just as you said, it is a mini-Infernape, and what works for Infernape should work for it, except for the sets that only Infernape can pull off. Monferno has nothing different to add.
There was a thread about it open for some time.
It was agreed by those in the thread that NFE's (who had some difference other than simply lower stats) should get a teir, but nothing was done about it.
I will try to find the link.
Also if people are willing to make analysis for these Pokemon I don't see the harm in having them.
It was agreed by those in the thread that NFE's (who had some difference other than simply lower stats) should get a teir, but nothing was done about it.
I will try to find the link.
Also if people are willing to make analysis for these Pokemon I don't see the harm in having them.
There really doesn't need to be an analysis for things like Kadabra and Haunter, since they will usually never have anything different from their fully-evolved counterparts.
But, I do think that these NFEs should be included in tier discussion and should be added to tier lists appropriately. Because Kadabra/Haunter/etc are surprisingly in the same tier as their evolutions while still being "too strong for UU", this could cause some confusions.
Relevant NFEs:
Pikachu
Kadabra
Machoke
Poliwhirl
Haunter
Magneton
Onix
Rhydon
Tangela
Chansey
Scyther
Magmar
Electabuzz
Porygon2
Togetic
Murkrow
Lickitung
Wynaut
Gligar
Piloswine
Yanma
Aipom
Sneasel
Misdreavus
Dusclops
Vigoroth
Nosepass
Trapinch
Clamperl
Roselia
Phione
Snover
Hippopotas
Gabite
(If I anything else let me know)
Sure, some of these were NU in Advance, but with the physical/special shift and huge amount of movepool changes, some of these guys could be perfectly usable in UU/BL (especially things like Sneasel and Piloswine got a huge boost). I don't think a blanket ban on NFEs in UU will work because we still allow things like Porygon2 and Rhydon in BL. If someone could explain exactly why NFEs in UU are looked down upon, please let me know.
edit- after looking at my post I'm not really sure this thread belongs in this forum..its more relevant to Stark/TPR
But, I do think that these NFEs should be included in tier discussion and should be added to tier lists appropriately. Because Kadabra/Haunter/etc are surprisingly in the same tier as their evolutions while still being "too strong for UU", this could cause some confusions.
Relevant NFEs:
Pikachu
Kadabra
Machoke
Poliwhirl
Haunter
Magneton
Onix
Rhydon
Tangela
Chansey
Scyther
Magmar
Electabuzz
Porygon2
Togetic
Murkrow
Lickitung
Wynaut
Gligar
Piloswine
Yanma
Aipom
Sneasel
Misdreavus
Dusclops
Vigoroth
Nosepass
Trapinch
Clamperl
Roselia
Phione
Snover
Hippopotas
Gabite
(If I anything else let me know)
Sure, some of these were NU in Advance, but with the physical/special shift and huge amount of movepool changes, some of these guys could be perfectly usable in UU/BL (especially things like Sneasel and Piloswine got a huge boost). I don't think a blanket ban on NFEs in UU will work because we still allow things like Porygon2 and Rhydon in BL. If someone could explain exactly why NFEs in UU are looked down upon, please let me know.
edit- after looking at my post I'm not really sure this thread belongs in this forum..its more relevant to Stark/TPR
I would suspect that nothing was done about NFE's because the agreement supposedly reached was by no means universal ... some wanted the complete "unbanning" of all NFE's, some of us wanted certain limitations.
There was also no definitive agreement on what constituted "difference" between NFE and its fully evolved form ...
As for your list jrrrrrrr
Pikachu, Vigoroth, Clamperl, Phione are eligible for use in the current UU game, as is Scyther (although he might be moved up to BL)
Snover and Hippopotas are automatically banned by most people because they consider auto-weather too powerful for the UU environment ... and there is a desire in some players to keep the UU environment as disctinct from OU as possible, which is one reason why NFE's are unpopular with some players.
There was also no definitive agreement on what constituted "difference" between NFE and its fully evolved form ...
As for your list jrrrrrrr
Pikachu, Vigoroth, Clamperl, Phione are eligible for use in the current UU game, as is Scyther (although he might be moved up to BL)
Snover and Hippopotas are automatically banned by most people because they consider auto-weather too powerful for the UU environment ... and there is a desire in some players to keep the UU environment as disctinct from OU as possible, which is one reason why NFE's are unpopular with some players.
I'm against putting all NFE's into UU, It'd just make OU-lite.
I think NFE's should be placed if they are viably different from their Evo-counterparts, and used in a very different way.
Those that come to mind are:
Pikachu
Vigoroth
Clampearl
Phione
Scyther
Magneton
Trapinch
Onix
Numel
__________
but after this, we have to decide what truly is different from they're evolved counterpart would Yanma be considered for this list with Compound Eyes + Hypnosis which it's evolved form cannot accomplish
I think NFE's should be placed if they are viably different from their Evo-counterparts, and used in a very different way.
Those that come to mind are:
Pikachu
Vigoroth
Clampearl
Phione
Scyther
Magneton
Trapinch
Onix
Numel
__________
but after this, we have to decide what truly is different from they're evolved counterpart would Yanma be considered for this list with Compound Eyes + Hypnosis which it's evolved form cannot accomplish
I just don't understand why NFEs can't just have their own tier of NFE? Why do we have to move them to UU or BL? Now some like Pikachu and Trapinch I understand as they are entirely different then their evolutions. However I do not understand why we should allow kadabra into UU. Zam is in BL so it would most likely go to UU and I mean kadabra would then be a huge threat with a modest specs psychic over that monstrous base 120? speed.
Ghandi I don't understand Numel and Onix on that list? How are they different then their evos?
Anyway I think that we should not mess with the tiers just keep them that way and open up the whole new metagame of NFE.
Ghandi I don't understand Numel and Onix on that list? How are they different then their evos?
Anyway I think that we should not mess with the tiers just keep them that way and open up the whole new metagame of NFE.
Numel has the brilliant ability of Simple, making it vastly different to it's Solid Rock evo.
Onix has different typing, aswell as being faster than Steelix, and benefits from Sandstorm
Onix has different typing, aswell as being faster than Steelix, and benefits from Sandstorm
Na I think Kadabra would rape the UU Metagame. If Rhyperior is BL than Rhydon should be allowed in UU if Kadabra is allowed.
Here we go this is the thread http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30259
NFEs Pokemon in UU
List of NFEs that would be banned from UU, made by darkflagrence.
Chansey (This is a sop thrown to the Blissey haters. If someone wants to argue for Chansey inclusion, by all means do so. Everyone will despise you.)
Dusclops (It wasn’t even UU last generation and now has Will-O-Wisp.)
Haunter (Gengar 0.5, it lacks Focus Punch. However, it is still almost as diverse as its evolution.)
Hippopotas (auto-weather)
Snover (auto-weather)
Kadabra (Diverse movepool and high power)
Questionable Metagame Influence – It is harder to determine whether the following would break the UU metagame. The question of whether to send the following to Borderline or allow them in UU may be debated:
Magneton (Magnet Pull and Magnet Rise may slay Aggron and possibly other steels.)
Sneasel (Sneasel has a paltry base attack but it possesses the movepool of its evolution. With Swords Dance it still might break UU)
Rhydon (It has a higher ATK and sp def tier than Aggron but lower on the def tier. Both have glaring 4x weaknesses. The high Attack may see it banned.)
Gligar (Gligar has improved substantially since last generation, gaining a good recovery move and stuff like Stone Edgeand Night Slash. However, it lacks the elemental fangs of its evolution. If included, it would counter Pinsir handily though.)
Machoke (100 Base attack Dynamicpunch is strong, but 45 base speed (max +Nature Scarf is 310) and low defenses are not so good.)
NFEs Pokemon in UU
List of NFEs that would be banned from UU, made by darkflagrence.
Chansey (This is a sop thrown to the Blissey haters. If someone wants to argue for Chansey inclusion, by all means do so. Everyone will despise you.)
Dusclops (It wasn’t even UU last generation and now has Will-O-Wisp.)
Haunter (Gengar 0.5, it lacks Focus Punch. However, it is still almost as diverse as its evolution.)
Hippopotas (auto-weather)
Snover (auto-weather)
Kadabra (Diverse movepool and high power)
Questionable Metagame Influence – It is harder to determine whether the following would break the UU metagame. The question of whether to send the following to Borderline or allow them in UU may be debated:
Magneton (Magnet Pull and Magnet Rise may slay Aggron and possibly other steels.)
Sneasel (Sneasel has a paltry base attack but it possesses the movepool of its evolution. With Swords Dance it still might break UU)
Rhydon (It has a higher ATK and sp def tier than Aggron but lower on the def tier. Both have glaring 4x weaknesses. The high Attack may see it banned.)
Gligar (Gligar has improved substantially since last generation, gaining a good recovery move and stuff like Stone Edgeand Night Slash. However, it lacks the elemental fangs of its evolution. If included, it would counter Pinsir handily though.)
Machoke (100 Base attack Dynamicpunch is strong, but 45 base speed (max +Nature Scarf is 310) and low defenses are not so good.)
I think it would probably be the best solution to the problem ...
Fair enough where NFE's are significantly different from their fully evolved forms, or contribute something new and unique (excluding auto-weather), then they should be considered for whatever new lower tier/s.
Otherwise ...
Allowing all NFEs in UU would NOT, under no circumstances whatsoever, make it 'OU-lite'.
You may say Kadabra is just like Alakazam. It is. But Kadabra is likely to be one of the top-UUs, whilst Alakazam is one of the bottom OUs, therefore it isn't quite the same. Is it?
Same goes with Gabite and Garchomp. They may be very similar, but Gabite is not going to be in the top 3 UUs it it? It'll be near the bottom of the UU tier, and won't be much of a threat.
Also, even Pokemon similar to their evos may have different movesets. Just like Blissey has different stat-spreads, and a few movesets that are only usable in Uber, Haunter, Sneasel, Magneton and whoever else may also have different movesets. For example, I'm pretty sure HP Ice will be a lot less common in UU, therefore less common on Magneton than on Magnezone, so it is possible that these Pokemon could have their own analysis.
Also, these so-called similar pre-evos do have advantages over their evolutions. Most Pokemon (excluding the usual Magneton, Electabuzz, Onix, etc.) are faster than their evolutions in a Trick Room, things like Chansey do more damage when using Counter than Blissey does, thanks to it's lower Defense, and its negligable HP drop, and things like Dusclops have a more-effective Pain Split due to a larger HP gradient.
You may say Kadabra is just like Alakazam. It is. But Kadabra is likely to be one of the top-UUs, whilst Alakazam is one of the bottom OUs, therefore it isn't quite the same. Is it?
Same goes with Gabite and Garchomp. They may be very similar, but Gabite is not going to be in the top 3 UUs it it? It'll be near the bottom of the UU tier, and won't be much of a threat.
Also, even Pokemon similar to their evos may have different movesets. Just like Blissey has different stat-spreads, and a few movesets that are only usable in Uber, Haunter, Sneasel, Magneton and whoever else may also have different movesets. For example, I'm pretty sure HP Ice will be a lot less common in UU, therefore less common on Magneton than on Magnezone, so it is possible that these Pokemon could have their own analysis.
Also, these so-called similar pre-evos do have advantages over their evolutions. Most Pokemon (excluding the usual Magneton, Electabuzz, Onix, etc.) are faster than their evolutions in a Trick Room, things like Chansey do more damage when using Counter than Blissey does, thanks to it's lower Defense, and its negligable HP drop, and things like Dusclops have a more-effective Pain Split due to a larger HP gradient.
The only poke I think is completely necessary of a UU tier is Gligar...it would help out the UU metagame by far; countering Pinsir, Syther etc while there is not reliable counter in UU now. One could also see pokes like Chansey, Dusclops etc in UU too but its hard to say. But talking about it here won't solve anything...Shoddy needs UU ladder with periodic testing (adding pokes like Kadabra/Haunter/Chansey/etc into the metaagme, just how Colin added Wobby and Deoxys-E for testing). That's really the only way to determine =/
I think a lot of the posters (OP) in here asking for Kadabra and Gabite in UU are new and aren't well read on the subject. This has been discussed heavily before and the general conclusion is that all NFEs are banned except for a select few that greatly differ themselves from their evolutions.
If Scyther and Pinsir turn out to be overpowering the rest of the UU metagame, then rather then add new pokemon, the problem pokemon should be moved up to BL. Think about OU, if a pokemon was causing over centralization in OU, we would send it to uber right? BL should be thought of as UU's version of Ubers, more a ban list then a metagame.
If Scyther and Pinsir turn out to be overpowering the rest of the UU metagame, then rather then add new pokemon, the problem pokemon should be moved up to BL. Think about OU, if a pokemon was causing over centralization in OU, we would send it to uber right? BL should be thought of as UU's version of Ubers, more a ban list then a metagame.
Right on, this is exactly what I see and why I think the "I don't want to see OU-lite" argument is rubbish. UU should just be a tier, the fact that pokemon from OU and BL are banned in UU would make UU significantly different.
I don't understand why people get into gripes about how some NFE's play exactly like they're OU counter-parts. They may have the same moveset and similar stat-spread, but they're in A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT. The dynamic in UU is so much different than OU with the lack of BST 600's, different walls, the multitude of different pokemon UU has to offer. I don't necessarily see people using teams of gabite, pupitar, staryu, special wall, onix, monferno just because they use the fully evolved form of that team in OU. The team I just described sucks in UU too.
I still think that NFE's that are too powerful for UU should get banned (noticed how i didn't say chansey when i mentioned special wall). However, I really hate the blanket ban on all NFE's because people don't want to play OU-lite. I hate Wobbuffet in OU but I deal with it because he is not broken in OU. We should extend this logic to test all NFE's that don't break the UU metagame.
Indeed, there are 150 pokemon in the current UU tier, many of which see little or no use. Therefore I ask would adding another hundred or so pokemon to an already bloated tier enrich it, or simply fragment it further?
Should we not hold off the tiering of NFE's until UU itself has been diluted a little first?
Why? How is an NFE pokemon any less a pokemon than something like Vileplume or Meganium? I think with the way smogon is currently heading towards allowing the most viable pokemon in a metagame, you're just postponing the inevitable with a blanket ban on NFE's.
I don't remember any consensus on the issue, and I was heavily involved in these discussions.
ADV included Electabuzz, Gligar, and Magmar in the UU tier because they weren't NFE then. Electivire, Gliscor, and Magmortar are DP Pokemon.
The argument that eventually led to me changing my mind from "ban all but those on this list to BL" to "allow all except those that we ban specifically to BL" was Trick Room. Because of Trick Room, lower Speed can be an advantage. This means that my original argument of only allowing Pokemon with a distinct advantage compared to their FE form essentially would auto-ban a very small minority (those that have the same Speed as their FE form, no other stats higher, same typing, and the same abilities). At that point, I felt you might as well just allow everything. In other words, you treat them like normal Pokemon. From there, you could still obviously ban those Pokemon that warrant banning, just like anything else.
The 'solution' of just sticking them in their own tier of NFE is not a solution. Either they are allowed in UU, in which case they are UU, or they are not allowing in UU, in in which case they are BL (or OU / uber...). Saying "just stick them in an NFE tier" doesn't address the issue of whether they can be used in UU, which is the only reason for the distinction between UU and BL.
ADV included Electabuzz, Gligar, and Magmar in the UU tier because they weren't NFE then. Electivire, Gliscor, and Magmortar are DP Pokemon.
The argument that eventually led to me changing my mind from "ban all but those on this list to BL" to "allow all except those that we ban specifically to BL" was Trick Room. Because of Trick Room, lower Speed can be an advantage. This means that my original argument of only allowing Pokemon with a distinct advantage compared to their FE form essentially would auto-ban a very small minority (those that have the same Speed as their FE form, no other stats higher, same typing, and the same abilities). At that point, I felt you might as well just allow everything. In other words, you treat them like normal Pokemon. From there, you could still obviously ban those Pokemon that warrant banning, just like anything else.
The 'solution' of just sticking them in their own tier of NFE is not a solution. Either they are allowed in UU, in which case they are UU, or they are not allowing in UU, in in which case they are BL (or OU / uber...). Saying "just stick them in an NFE tier" doesn't address the issue of whether they can be used in UU, which is the only reason for the distinction between UU and BL.