Counter that OU Pokemon! **DON'T REPEAT SETS!!!!**

[Jimera0]

Counter That OU Pokemon!

​

Alright, so I was looking around and noticed and noticed that it seems every tier has a "counter that Pokemon thread... except for OU, the biggest and most played tier of all. A quick search confirmed my suspicions. And so I thought "Hell, why don't I start one? It looks like fun and also educational". And so here we are.

How it Works:
First, I post a starting Pokemon set for people to counter. Then one of you comes up with a set that HARD counters that Pokemon set. It must be a counter; a check is not good enough. Then the next person takes the set you just countered my set with and counters that. Then the next person counters that set, and so on.

Conditions for determining a Counter:
For the purposes of this thread, the Pokemon being countered is assumed to exist as if it were sent out on the first turn of a game. This means full hp, unmodified stats, no weather unless the Pokemon in question summons it automatically, etc. The Pokemon that counters it must be able to come in on ANY of the moves of the Pokemon it is supposed to be countering and still beat it. It must also do so without becoming permanently crippled (basically if it turns the "counter" into dead weight after it beats it), and without allowing the Pokemon being countered to complete its role successfully (final stipulation only applies when the role accomplished is the Pokemon's ONLY role. So Fast Spiking Deoxys-D isn't countered if it gets all its spikes and rocks up, but Sp Def Jirachi is even if it gets rocks up). One layer of Spikes OR Stealth rock is assumed on the counter's side of the field when determining a counter. The counter in question only needs to counter the specific set that is listed, not every version of the Pokemon that is possible.

The Rules:
Here are some specific rules to ensure this topic doesn't get out of hand.

- ONLY counter the Pokemon that was last posted. If you get ninja'd too bad. If you end up getting ninja'd, edit your post and delete your Pokemon IMMEDIATELY to avoid confusion. If for whatever reason someone does not immediately delete their post when they get ninja'd, you are to continue with the Pokemon that was posted first.
- Don't repeat Pokemon if possible! Don't repeat sets that have already been used, and try to repeat specific Pokemon as infrequently as possible. A list will be maintained on the front page to help make this easier.
- Make sure your counter is viable in OU outside of just countering that Pokemon. It doesn't have to be perfect at the role, but make sure it's something that would actually be worth using in OU.
- Explain your counter! Write a small paragraph describing how your Pokemon counters the previous one, and how it's useful beyond countering it. This is a requirement, not a request.
- Post complete sets only. This means species, item, EVs, nature, Moves and the chosen ability all need to be included in your set. An image is nice too, but not required.
- Make sure your counter is solid before posting! Either actually playtest it or make sure your theorymonning is 100% solid before posting. It must meet the criteria listed above to count! Calculations might be required to ensure your counter is solid. A good damage calculator can be found here.
- Only post to counter a Pokemon, or to call out a bad counter! Do call outs briefly and provide proof as to why the Pokemon in question does not meet the criteria. In the case of a bad counter, we will continue with the bad counter to avoid confusion.
- Do not reply to bad counter call-outs! If you have an issue with a call out, PM it to me and I will ask the poster to edit the offending post. If they refuse, then I can ask a mod to do it for me. The purpose of call outs is to point out bad counters to people who might be reading the thread for informational purposes, not to start debates.

Used Pokemon List *CHECK BEFORE POSTING!*:

Here's a list showing how often each Pokemon has been used as a counter in this thread. If your counter is already on the list, try and pick a different one instead. If you feel you must use that counter anyway, at least make sure its a different set from those already posted. The list may not be up to date but you are still responsible for checking the posts that haven't been included in the list. I'll be sure to update it frequently though, so you shouldn't have to go back more than one page to check.

Updated up to post #202 (in alphabetical order)

Bronzong: 4
Chansey: 4
Conkeldurr: 4
Heatran: 4
Jellicent: 4
Slowbro: 4
Terrakion: 4
--------------
Ferrothorn: 3
Gyarados: 3
Jirachi: 3
Rotom-W: 3
Tyranitar: 3
Zapdos: 3
---------------
Abomasnow: 2
Alakazam: 2
Altaria: 2
Breloom: 2
Celebi: 2
Chandelure: 2
Cloyster: 2
Dragonite: 2
Empoleon: 2
Ferrothorn: 2
Gengar: 2
Gliscor: 2
Heracross: 2
Hitmontop: 2
Houndoom: 2
Infernape: 2
Landorus: 2
Latias: 2
Magnezone: 2
Nidoqueen: 2
Porygon2: 2
Quagsire: 2
Reuniclus: 2
Roserade: 2
Scrafty: 2
Shedinja: 2
Snorlax: 2
Spiritomb: 2
Swampert: 2
Tentacruel: 2
Tornadous: 2
Toxicroak: 2
Vaporeon: 2
Virizon: 2
Xatu: 2
----------
Arcanine: 1
Azumaril: 1
Bisharp: 1
Blissey: 1
Claydol: 1
Cobalion: 1
Cradily: 1
Crawdaunt: 1
Cresselia: 1
Donphan: 1
Drapion: 1
Dugtrio: 1
Electivire: 1
Espeon: 1
Flygon: 1
Forretress: 1
Gallade: 1
Gastrodon: 1
Gligar: 1
Golurk: 1
Gurrdurr: 1
Hariyama: 1
Haxorus: 1
Hippowdon: 1
Hydreigon: 1
Kyurem: 1
Lanturn: 1
Latios: 1
Ludicolo: 1
Machamp: 1
Metagross: 1
Miltank: 1
Nidoking: 1
Ninetails: 1
Politoed: 1
Poliwrath: 1
Qwilfish: 1
Raikou: 1
Regice: 1
Rhyperior: 1
Rotom-C: 1
Rotom-H: 1
Sableye: 1
Salamence: 1
Scizor: 1
Shaymin: 1
Sigilyph: 1
Skarmory: 1
Slowking: 1
Starmie: 1
Steelix: 1
Suicune: 1
Tangrowth: 1
Volcarona: 1
Venusaur: 1
Vicinti: 1
Weavile: 1
Weezing: 1

Starting Pokemon:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 116 Atk / 216 SAtk / 176 Spd
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Outrage

Special thanks: First I must say that I took an awful lot of the format and rules from the Ubers version of this thread and I have to thank Poppy for creating such a great standard with it.

I'd also like to thank Tobes for helping me come up with a standard for what a counter is, as that should help keep things from getting out of hand.

I also want to thank all those who actually read the whole post before posting. Seriously, not enough people have evidently.

And of course everyone, have fun!

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Trait: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Thunderbolt

Porygon2 can literally take anything mixmence can throw at it thanks to trace. Outrage caps out at 28% and dracometeor at 63%, and 31% on the second hit, which is no problem thanks to recover. Although admitably with hazard stacking a 2HKO might be possible. Porygon2 than handily 1HKOs with ice beam always. Porygon2 is also a good general wall that can fit well on most teams lacking a comprehensive core. This is the standard Porygon spead itself first makes sure it can take 2 draco meteors in the sand from Salamence, and the rest is dumped into defense to take hits from other stonger physical attackers like Haxorus.

 

[doughboy]

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Trait: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Thunderbolt

Porygon2 can literally take anything mixmence can throw at it thanks to trace. Outrage caps out at 28% and dracometeor at 63%, and 31% on the second hit, which is no problem thanks to recover. Although admitably with hazard stacking a 2HKO might be possible. Porygon2 than handily 1HKOs with ice beam always. Porygon2 is also a good general wall that can fit well on most teams lacking a comprehensive core. This is the standard Porygon spead itself first makes sure it can take 2 draco meteors in the sand from Salamence, and the rest is dumped into defense to take hits from other stonger physical attackers like Haxorus.

Reuniclus (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Recover
- Calm Mind

Reuniclus can safely come in on anything and proceed to boost and sweep. Calm Minds make it so that Ice Beam and Thunderbolt do less damage each turn. If it comes in on a Toxic, Ice Beam has no freeze chance to stop this monster and Thunderbolt can't paralyze. With no way to stop it, even Psychic can be used to get past Porygon-2 instead of a super effective Focus Blast. Reuniclus breaks stall for its team.

Mixmence

@Scarfwynaunt I'm calling it out as not the safess counter because it has the possibility of being 2HKO'ed with SR and a very good chance after one layer of Spikes and SR. Spikes is a combination often used with MixMence since it is a wall breaker

Salamence @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 116 Atk / 216 SAtk / 176 Spd
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Outrage

Why does it have to be the hardest Pokemon to counter in the game :o

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Atk / 80 Def / 92 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Hypnosis

Brongzong is one of the only Pokemon out their that can take the combination of Outrage+Draco Meteor safely, even Cresilia has to watch out since it takes 80%. Levitate grants Brongzong the ability to switch in into Earthquake with impunity. Although Brongzong takes 64.5%-75.4% to Fire Blast, it can still give it the oppurtunity to smack back with Gyro Ball, or if there is a burn, HP Ice. However, in the Rain, Brongzong can safely take a Fire Blast with 32.54%-38.46% damage. Of course, if Brongzong switches in on a Draco Meteor, he can take a Fire Blast comfortably. Hypnosis and SR make it a great team player.

@sorry for the chaos :o

 

[Jimera0]

@Scarfwynaunt I'm calling it out as not the safess counter because it has the possibility of being 2HKO'ed with SR and a very good chance after one layer of Spikes and SR. Spikes is a combination often used with MixMence since it is a wall breaker



Why does it have to be the hardest Pokemon to counter in the game :o

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Atk / 80 Def / 92 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Hypnosis

Brongzong is one of the only Pokemon out their that can take the combination of Outrage+Draco Meteor safely, even Cresilia has to watch out since it takes 80%. Levitate grants Brongzong the ability to switch in into Earthquake with impunity. Although Brongzong takes 64.5%-75.4% to Fire Blast, it can still give it the oppurtunity to smack back with Gyro Ball, or if there is a burn, HP Ice. However, in the Rain, Brongzong can safely take a Fire Blast with 32.54%-38.46% damage. Of course, if Brongzong switches in on a Draco Meteor, he can take a Fire Blast comfortably. Hypnosis and SR make it a great team player.

I shouldn't've started out with such a difficult Pokemon it would seem.

Anyway, I'm going to have to say that Scarfwynaut's is safer than yours, because with no rain Bronzong is guaranteed to go down as long as Fire Blast doesn't miss. At least with Porygon2 it's only a CHANCE of dieing, instead of a near certainty.

Anyway before this devolves I'm going to quickly decide that we just go with Porygon2 and go on from there.

EDIT: Screw it someone already countered Bronzong, we'll go with that.
EDIT2: We're going to continue with whatever Pokemon is listed last! So as of the edit, that Pokemon is Pwnemon's Heatran. DO NOT EDIT YOUR COUNTERS PEOPLE! I don't want this getting any more confusing than it already is. also, I've added another rule, so go reread them!

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Magnezone @ Leftovers

Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Timid Nature: +Spe, -Atk
-Substitute
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Fire
-Flash Cannon

With Magnet pull, magnezone can come in on any attack from bronzong barring hypnosis, set up a substitute to prevent status, and proceed to eliminate bronzong. None of bronzong's common attacks will be effective against magnezone, who can stay in for as long as it likes. When bronzong falls to magnezone's thunderbolts, it will hopefully have a free sub set up and will be able to deal heavy damage to whatever switches in.

EDIT: I wrote this while the above post was being written. We can either proceed from here or just stick with Porygon2, it doesn't matter to me

 

[Stratos]

The one, the only SpDefTran!

Heatran @ Leftovers
Calm
Flash Fire
252 HP / 156 SpDef / 100 Spe
-Lava Plume
-Stealth Rock
-Protect
-Roar

Can very safely come in on anything but a Tbolt and proceed to either Plume dead or phase out (Tbolt is a 4hko)

 

[Jimera0]

Just to quickly clarify two things:

1. We are not going back to Porygon2, we are continuing with the Pokemon in the post above this one.
2. Read the damn rules so this crazy shit doesn't happen again. I'll admit I might not have made them clear enough but I've gone through to help clarify issues and I'm going to go over them again now to refine them. You might want to check them over again soon as I might have edited a couple things.

Anyway, CONTINUE!

EDIT: Rules updated, hopefully they'll prevent this nonsense from happening again.

 

[min min]

Infernape @Choice Band
Jolly | 252 Atk|4 SDef|252 Spe
-Flare Blitz
-Close Combat
-U-turn
-Stone Edge

Welp, this is a bit of a no-brainer. You can switch in on Lava Plume, and can't be burned by it either. SR damage could rack up after a while, however, but you get a free turn to fire off a CB-boosted 120 BP STAB attack when you switch into the abovementioned Heatran.

 

[The Truth]

Infernape @Choice Band
Jolly | 252 Atk|4 SDef|252 Spe
-Flare Blitz
-Close Combat
-U-turn
-Stone Edge

Welp, this is a bit of a no-brainer. You can switch in on Lava Plume, and can't be burned by it either. SR damage could rack up after a while, however, but you get a free turn to fire off a CB-boosted 120 BP STAB attack when you switch into the abovementioned Heatran.

Jellicent@Leftovers
Bold | 252 HP|216 Def|44 Spe
-Surf
-Taunt
-Recover
-Will-o-Wisp

The standard Jelli lol. It can come in safely on any of Ape's attacks but stone edge, and then just use Surf to kill it off. The rest of the moves honestly don't have much of a use vs ape sans recover; they're just part of the set lol.

 

[tehy]

Jellicent@Leftovers
Bold | 252 HP|216 Def|44 Spe
-Surf
-Taunt
-Recover
-Will-o-Wisp

The standard Jelli lol. It can come in safely on any of Ape's attacks but stone edge, and then just use Surf to kill it off. The rest of the moves honestly don't have much of a use vs ape sans recover; they're just part of the set lol.

Roserade@Leftovers
Calm | 252 HP | 252 SpDef|4 speed
-Leaf Storm
-Toxic Spikes
-Rest
-Sleep powder

Beastly roserade. Comes in upon jellicent easily. From there, it can set up t-spikes to screw it over later, dish out the damage with leaf storm, put it or a switch-in to sleep, or heal if almost dead. Max special defense for taking special attacks.

 

[casey90]

@ tehy's roserade

Dragonite@leftovers
Adamant 244 HP / 76 Att / 188 Speed
~Substitute
~Dragon Dance
~Roost
~Dragon Claw

Sub DD Nite can switch in against everything barring Sleep Powder from Specially defensive Roserade and set up a sub to wall it indefinately. It can proceed to set up Dragon Dances to potentially sweep the opposing team. Ev's provide a balance of power, bulk and speed. Hp Ev's give a leftovers number, the speed allows it to outspeed max base 61's and the nature and attack Ev's are for power.

 

[Zacchaeus]

@ tehy's roserade

Dragonite@leftovers
Adamant 244 HP / 76 Att / 188 Speed
~Substitute
~Dragon Dance
~Roost
~Dragon Claw

Cloyster - Focus Sash
Adamant - Skill Link
252 Atk 252 Spe 4 Def
Shell Smash
Icicle Spear
Rock Blast
Razor Shell

Focus Sash is used over other viable items such as White Herb in this scenario to ensure one Shell Smash or Icicle Spear right away depending on how many times Dragonite has used Dragon Dance. Skill Link is a fantastic ability to have with Icicle Spear and Rock Blast, especially in its capability to break Substitute and Multiscale. Jolly isn't needed at +2 and I prefer to avoid using mixed Cloyster

 

[Jimera0]

I'm afraid I have to call out two people already.

@The Truth you said if it comes in on anything other than Stone Edge it'd win, and you're right. The problem is that a HARD counter needs to be able to come in on ANY of a Pokemon's moves and win, and not be permanent crippled afterwards. Now, it turns out that you were actually wrong and that Jellicent CAN come in on Stone Edge and still counter Infernape barring a crit so it is still a hard counter. However, the point still stands that a hard counter needs to be able to come in on ALL of a Pokemon's moves to be a true hard counter, not just most of them.

@Casey90: Again, you put the qualifier "as long as it doesn't switch into this one move". If the Pokemon being countered has a move that can allow it to win against your counter, it is not a hard counter and should not be posted as such. Had you put a Lum Berry instead, then it would've truely fit. However I should point out that even if Dragonite does get put to sleep that particular Roserade is never going to kill it. Still, it can set up its toxic spikes, thereby completing its primary role, and a hard counter should not allow that to happen.

Both these Pokemon are great checks to the Pokemon they were supposed to counter, but they are dubious as true hard counters. While I think they both kind of squeak by, I don't want to see anymore "if it doesn't switch into this move" phrases in any future posts. If you find yourself using that phrase or a variation of it, it's a pretty blatant sign that what you're posting isn't as hard a counter as you thought.

I've added a bit to the rules detailing exactly what a hard counter entails. Keep this in mind with future posts.

But really, great response everyone so far. I just have one more complaint: you people need to remember to list ability your pokemon is using! Remember that almost all Pokemon have 2 abilities theoretically available to them thanks to the Dream World. Hell, even if the Pokemon you're posting does only have one ability possible just please post it to be clear. It just eliminates any ambiguity when someone is trying to make a counter for your Pokemon (and it is in the rules!).

Thanks for the support so far people, I think we're slowly working the wrinkles out here. As long as people make sure to read the rules before posting I think everything should work perfectly from now on.

 

[Groudon ex]

Empoleon (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Roar

Thanks to its typing, it resists all of Cloyster's attacks. Even after a Shell Smash, it takes very little from anything Cloyster has in its arsenal, and proceeds to Scald it to death, or use it as fodder to set up Stealth Rock and Roar it out.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Gastrodon (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Recover

Gastrodon can switch in on Empoleon's Scalds, using them to raise its Sp. Attack one stage. From there, Gastrodon can 2HKO Empoleon with Earth Power if it stays in, or use Toxic/Ice Beam on a predicted switch-in.

 

[Raikaria]

Gastrodon (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Recover

Gastrodon can switch in on Empoleon's Scalds, using them to raise its Sp. Attack one stage. From there, Gastrodon can 2HKO Empoleon with Earth Power if it stays in, or use Toxic/Ice Beam on a predicted switch-in.

Celebi @ Leftovers
220HP/252 Sp.Atk/ 36 Spe
Modest Nature

Nasty Plot
Giga Drain
Hidden Power Fire
Psychic

Gastrodon can do nothing to this set. Celebi can quite happily set up a Nasty Plot on Gastrodon. If Gastrodon switches out, fine, you're at +2, and you have HP Fire for Scizor. If Gastrodon stays in and tries to Toxic you, you have Natural Cure, and can heal off the initial Toxic Damage with Giga Drain.

It it tries to Ice Beam you, can you laugh as you kill it next turn with Giga Drain and remove all the harm done, barring a lucky freeze which all counters have to face.

 

[jc104]

Celebi @ Leftovers
220HP/252 Sp.Atk/ 36 Spe
Modest Nature

Nasty Plot
Giga Drain
Hidden Power Fire
Psychic

Gastrodon can do nothing to this set. Celebi can quite happily set up a Nasty Plot on Gastrodon. If Gastrodon switches out, fine, you're at +2, and you have HP Fire for Scizor. If Gastrodon stays in and tries to Toxic you, you have Natural Cure, and can heal off the initial Toxic Damage with Giga Drain.

It it tries to Ice Beam you, can you laugh as you kill it next turn with Giga Drain and remove all the harm done, barring a lucky freeze which all counters have to face.

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
Modest nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

Laughs in the face of all of Celebi's moves, and can hit it back with any of three super effective attacks, placing the opponent in a difficult position.

 

[I Am]

Chansey @ Eviolite
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold nature
- Toxic
- Wish
- Protect
- Seismic Toss

Chansey can handily wall any of Hydregions moves, taking a pittance from every one of its attacks. It can then proceed to use Wish to support its team (or heal itself), or Toxic the Pokemon brought in via U-turn on the next turn. Seismic toss is nice, consistent damage as well.

I wanted to use Heatran as a more offensive counter, but it was already used to blob will have to do.

 

[Challenger]

Chansey @ Eviolite
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold nature
- Toxic
- Wish
- Protect
- Seismic Toss

.

Conkeldurr @ flame orb.
Guts, adamant nature
224 HP 252 attack 32 SpD

Drain Punch
Facade
Mach Punch
Payback

Easy counter to Chansey. Isn't afraid of even switching into toxic, because it gets the Guts boost regardless, and switching into a seismic toss doesn't matter because of drain punch recovery.

 

[AOPSUser]

Conkeldurr @ flame orb.
Guts, adamant nature
224 HP 252 attack 32 SpD

Drain Punch
Facade
Mach Punch
Payback

Easy counter to Chansey. Isn't afraid of even switching into toxic, because it gets the Guts boost regardless, and switching into a seismic toss doesn't matter because of drain punch recovery.

Skarmory@Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Impish
-Whirlwind
-Spikes
-Brave Bird
-Roost

Drain Punch is a 3HKO with the Guts boost at best, meaning Skarmory can comfortably set up 1 layer of Spikes and Whirlwind it out. If it comes back, you can always Roost on the switch-in.

 

[AasTmO]

This thread has a cunning lack of Magnezone.
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature : Timid
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Magic Coat
Brave bird doesn't KO any time soon, and Thunderbolt should cleanly KO that Skarmory. Magic Coat allows 'Zone to return Skarm's (or Ferro's, or Forre's) spikes, and Volt Switch means 'Zone has something to do after killing the opponent's steels. Scizor (without U-turn or Superpower available), Forretress, Ferrothorn and Skarmory all fall prey to this Magnezone..

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Dugtrio@Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SDef/ 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Substitute
-Reversal

Use Earthquake. Or get fancy and use Substitute and stuff so you can activate Reversal and sweep the rest of this sad sap's team.

 

[AOPSUser]

Cloyster@Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
-Shell Smash
-Icicle Spear
-Rock Blast
-Razor Shell

You come in after Magnezone dies, Shell Smash and live with Sash if necessary, and Icicle Spear, which breaks Dugtrio's Sash.

 

[Jimera0]

Alright, I just want to point out here that people are already repeating Pokemon, (including AOPSUser's Cloyster which is a carbon copy of a previous Cloyster). Read my dang list people! It's there for a reason!

 

[ginganinja]

I would also like to point out that Celebi is not a hard counter to that particular Gastrodon set, as it can 2HKO it after any hazards with Ice Beam at +1 while potentially avoiding an OHKO itself from Gigadrain. The chance of this happening is pretty low, but prevents it from being a rock solid counter.

Id like to point out that Celebi can switch in, take an Ice Beam (I presume). Outspeed Gastrodon, Giga Drain, heal itself some more HP, and then survive the Ice Beam (if Gastrodon survives the Giga Drain). Also can we just allow "really really close to being hard counters" to "counters" as its hard enough to counter certain pokemon without getting really really nitpicky?

For example posts like

The Truth you said if it comes in on anything other than Stone Edge it'd win, and you're right. The problem is that a HARD counter needs to be able to come in on ANY of a Pokemon's moves and win, and not be permanent crippled afterwards. However, it does turn out that Jellicent only takes 32-38% from Infernape, so unless there are several layers of hazards or a critical hit occurs, Jellicent will still probably win. Still it isn't guaranteed to win, but hey. I guess it kind of fits into a grey area. However, the point of a hard counter still stands.

Don't really help. Taking only 32-38% from Stone Edge is a 3KO (also especially considering Jellicent has Leftovers) and that Jellicent can just fucking recover if it switchs in on a Stone Edge, KO with Scald, and you consider that "it is'nt guaranteed to win". Unless im missing something completely obvious (or you were being funny I guess) or if we are playing "Counter that pokemon with 3 layers of Spikes up" or something, can we please stop being so damn nitpicky when it come to counters seeing as its hard enough to find counters as it is

EDIT:

Whoa came across as slightly aggressive there, I just look at this thread and get amazed that Jellicent is'nt classed as a hard counter to Infernape

EDIT 2 stop editting posts jeez