My bad, I'm kinda new to this. I've edited my post to reflect this.
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Project Counter That Pokemon! [Battle Time!]
- Thread starter Tressed
- Start date
- Status
The winner in a landslide victory of 15 votes is SpDef Dragalge.
Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor
Nominations are now open for the second slot on Team 2. Voting will begin on April 25.
Do nominations from slot 1 carry over because nothing has changed as far as what we're countering? I might be over thinking things, but I'm just wondering.
I'm going to say no for the moment to ensure we get a variety of options and to prevent people from just resubmitting old ones until they stick.
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (EVs undecided, I'll need extra input from you guys)
Hasty Nature
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- U-Turn (A stretch, but Hidden Power Grass in this slot hits Rotom-W pretty hard, Grass Knot is guaranteed to 2HKO any Hippowdon variant which Hurricane can't if it's got a huge amount of SpDef investment)
Great coverage, great speed, backup offensive check to Gengar if needed, Regenerator is amazing with the Life Orb and with Toxic Spikes up, the other team will be having trouble switching in on it.
Alternatively, Thundurus is a good option. Not much switches in on it at all, and Prankster T-Wave is a really good offensive tool for most things in OU.
I nominate Choice Band Scizor, the King of BW.
Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Superpower
- Knock Off
Bullet Punch is a strong priority move that allows Scizor to OHKO Gengar and pick off other weakened threats. The Slow U-Turn from Scizor also gives Team 2 momentum and prevents it's teammates from having to take a strong hit which Scizor can take through it's good typing. Superpower is there to hit and weaken Ferrothorn, Heatran, Bisharp and Magnezone which can switch into Dragalge's STABs in addition to switching in freely on Scizor. Knock Off is for utility. Furthermore, Scizor can also check Lati@s and Starmie who can force Dragalge out with their Psychic STAB moves and remove entry hazards. In return, Dragalge can help Scizor defeat Keldeo, which it doesn't like at all.
Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Superpower
- Knock Off
Bullet Punch is a strong priority move that allows Scizor to OHKO Gengar and pick off other weakened threats. The Slow U-Turn from Scizor also gives Team 2 momentum and prevents it's teammates from having to take a strong hit which Scizor can take through it's good typing. Superpower is there to hit and weaken Ferrothorn, Heatran, Bisharp and Magnezone which can switch into Dragalge's STABs in addition to switching in freely on Scizor. Knock Off is for utility. Furthermore, Scizor can also check Lati@s and Starmie who can force Dragalge out with their Psychic STAB moves and remove entry hazards. In return, Dragalge can help Scizor defeat Keldeo, which it doesn't like at all.
Gengar is definitely difficult to build for but I don't think we need another check for Gengar this early in the gamebuilding stage. Team 2 has 5 teamslots left and finding a secondary good check to Gengar won't be that difficult. I think it is better to look at some pokemon that are very annoying to build against on team 1. I am nominating Mega Gyarados a the second teammate because it shows very good synergy both offensively and defensively with Dragalge. Unfortunately the Dragalge doesn't have HP Fire or Focus Blast, so stuff like Power Whip Ferrothorn will become annoying, but it is not like it is very difficult to prepare for Ferrothorn so the Ferrothorn weakness won't be that big of a problem.
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Taunt
Jolly > Adamant because you really have to outspeed Lopunny and Manectric in my opinion. Jolly loses some ohkos or 2hkos, which Adamant will get, but this can be countered by team 2 by having things such as spikestacking or voltswitch. Taunt > Substitute or Earthquake because it prevents pokemon like Bulky SD Mega Scizor and SpD Skarmory from healing up any damage they receive from Dragalge because those are some pokemon that can switch in on this Dragalge set and by cutting down their healing for a big part, they are worn down much easier.
btw Gyarados can still be the secondary Gengar check if we really need one, as it can tank a Sludge Wave, DD up, then outspeed Gengar and finish it with Crunch. Not the most reliable way to deal with Gengar because you lose if you have already mega'd or rocks are up + you took 10% prior damage and you can't switch into Gengar, but it is still a backup plan every team needs for Gengar.
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Taunt
Jolly > Adamant because you really have to outspeed Lopunny and Manectric in my opinion. Jolly loses some ohkos or 2hkos, which Adamant will get, but this can be countered by team 2 by having things such as spikestacking or voltswitch. Taunt > Substitute or Earthquake because it prevents pokemon like Bulky SD Mega Scizor and SpD Skarmory from healing up any damage they receive from Dragalge because those are some pokemon that can switch in on this Dragalge set and by cutting down their healing for a big part, they are worn down much easier.
btw Gyarados can still be the secondary Gengar check if we really need one, as it can tank a Sludge Wave, DD up, then outspeed Gengar and finish it with Crunch. Not the most reliable way to deal with Gengar because you lose if you have already mega'd or rocks are up + you took 10% prior damage and you can't switch into Gengar, but it is still a backup plan every team needs for Gengar.
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (EVs undecided, I'll need extra input from you guys)
Hasty Nature
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- U-Turn (A stretch, but Hidden Power Grass in this slot hits Rotom-W pretty hard, Grass Knot is guaranteed to 2HKO any Hippowdon variant which Hurricane can't if it's got a huge amount of SpDef investment)
Great coverage, great speed, backup offensive check to Gengar if needed, Regenerator is amazing with the Life Orb and with Toxic Spikes up, the other team will be having trouble switching in on it.
Alternatively, Thundurus is a good option. Not much switches in on it at all, and Prankster T-Wave is a really good offensive tool for most things in OU.
As far as the EV spread goes, you can probably afford to run the standard 216 speed EVs plus a positive nature because doing so doesn't hurt Tornadus-T very much. It still outspeeds up through Scarf Tyranitar while only losing out to a few things like Alakazam and Mega-Pidgeot.
I nominate Choice Band Scizor, the King of BW.
Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Superpower
- Knock Off
Bullet Punch is a strong priority move that allows Scizor to OHKO Gengar and pick off other weakened threats. The Slow U-Turn from Scizor also gives Team 2 momentum and prevents it's teammates from having to take a strong hit which Scizor can take through it's good typing. Superpower is there to hit and weaken Ferrothorn, Heatran, Bisharp and Magnezone which can switch into Dragalge's STABs in addition to switching in freely on Scizor. Knock Off is for utility. Furthermore, Scizor can also check Lati@s and Starmie who can force Dragalge out with their Psychic STAB moves and remove entry hazards. In return, Dragalge can help Scizor defeat Keldeo, which it doesn't like at all.
I definitely like this choice, but wouldn't Pursuit be a better option over Knock Off because it makes Scizor a better Lati check? I find Knock Off not to be particularly useful because half the time you're going to be hitting U-Turn anyway. A second small nitpick would be that I usually throw the extra 8 EVs into speed so CB Scizor can speed tie or outspeed other Scizors and Alomomola. However, this probably boils down to preference more than anything.
Edit Random Passerby: Yeah, you make a good point about the speed creep, so the EVs are fine. Pursuit would allow us to trap Gengar too, but trapping strategies might fall short because team 1 will know all of team 2's moves. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say though.
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Speed creeping is useless in this Project since the opponent knows the EV spread and can creep right back. As for Knock Off vs Pursuit, strictly speaking, I don't think Team 1 will get a Lati@s since they have a Gengar already. So, it's only target is Starmie and perhaps weakened Thundurus or something. If a lot of people think it's important, I will change it.
Gengar is definitely difficult to build for but I don't think we need another check for Gengar this early in the gamebuilding stage. Team 2 has 5 teamslots left and finding a secondary good check to Gengar won't be that difficult. I think it is better to look at some pokemon that are very annoying to build against on team 1. I am nominating Mega Gyarados a the second teammate because it shows very good synergy both offensively and defensively with Dragalge. Unfortunately the Dragalge doesn't have HP Fire or Focus Blast, so stuff like Power Whip Ferrothorn will become annoying, but it is not like it is very difficult to prepare for Ferrothorn so the Ferrothorn weakness won't be that big of a problem.
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Taunt
Jolly > Adamant because you really have to outspeed Lopunny and Manectric in my opinion. Jolly loses some ohkos or 2hkos, which Adamant will get, but this can be countered by team 2 by having things such as spikestacking or voltswitch. Taunt > Substitute or Earthquake because it prevents pokemon like Bulky SD Mega Scizor and SpD Skarmory from healing up any damage they receive from Dragalge because those are some pokemon that can switch in on this Dragalge set and by cutting down their healing for a big part, they are worn down much easier.
btw Gyarados can still be the secondary Gengar check if we really need one, as it can tank a Sludge Wave, DD up, then outspeed Gengar and finish it with Crunch. Not the most reliable way to deal with Gengar because you lose if you have already mega'd or rocks are up + you took 10% prior damage and you can't switch into Gengar, but it is still a backup plan every team needs for Gengar.
To contribute to the thread, Mega-Gyar would probably be a great pokemon to have, but I'm a little worried about picking our mega so early. It would make our teambuilding a little too predictable. It's just a thought, and this may go really good or really bad.
It's also really easy to hard-wall. Chesnaught, Azumarill, Hydreigon, Keldeo, Mega Altaria, Breloom all resist STAB combo (excluded things like Mega Sharpedo that can't take hits well or can't hit back). Mainly Chesnaught and Keldeo are problems as team 1 can either afford to have Spikes support with Chesnaught or have an offensive counter with Keldeo which will make it a lot harder to beat.
It's really not as bad as you make it out to be, considering chesnaught, azumarill, mega altaria, and breloom all get beaten by gengar and keldeo takes tons from LO sludge wave. In fact, mega gyarados seems like a decent choice as it has really good offensive synergy with gengar.
Mega Gyarados is a teammate of Dragalge, not of Gengar. The schedule is team 1 [gengar] - 2 [dragalge] - 2 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 1
Mega Gyarados and Dragalge also have good offensive synergy btw
I really like Mega Gyarados. However, picking it now causes Team 2 to be facing huge issues with Ferrothorn and having difficulty checking Azumarill and Bisharp (Intimidate will screw you over).
Mega Gyara leaves the problem of team 1 being able to have a counter (Keldeo) that is more of an offensive threat that would then need to be countered itself, as well as team 1's next pick.
Gyara is a great Pokemon but only 2 coverage moves isn't great when we're trying to make the least counterable (is that a word?) thing we can.
Gyara is a great Pokemon but only 2 coverage moves isn't great when we're trying to make the least counterable (is that a word?) thing we can.
Let's review what we have here:
1) AV Tornadus-T : great Speed tier and having Regenerator means it is difficult to wear down. A secondary check to Gengar and having U-Turn for momentum means this is a good pivot. However, Tornadus-T is really weak offensively and having to rely on 70% accuracy for Hurricane for a good STAB move to abuse is less than ideal. Since it isn't particularly powerful, Tornadus-T can be easily walled.
2) Choice Band Scizor : Slow U-Turn and has Bullet Punch for priority, allowing it to pick off frail and weakened threats. Scizor can also be a Fairy-killer with Bullet Punch and can make Heatran, Ferrothorn and Magnezone think twice with Superpower. However, Scizor is really slow, making it relying on Bullet Punch more often than not. Also, it has no reliable recovery so it can be easily worn down.
3) Mega Gyarados : Good offensive synergy with Dragalge and a dangerous sweeper. However, Mega Gyarados is countered by Ferrothorn, Chesnaught, Azumarill, Mega Altaria and Keldeo while also having trouble with Bisharp before Mega Evolving. All of these are dangerous threats for Team 2.
Actually, I was also thinking of nominating Regular Gyarados here since Gyarados can deal with Keldeo, Azumarill and Mega Altaria with Bounce. Problem is Regular Gyarados is easily prepared for this early in the teambuiilding stage.
1) AV Tornadus-T : great Speed tier and having Regenerator means it is difficult to wear down. A secondary check to Gengar and having U-Turn for momentum means this is a good pivot. However, Tornadus-T is really weak offensively and having to rely on 70% accuracy for Hurricane for a good STAB move to abuse is less than ideal. Since it isn't particularly powerful, Tornadus-T can be easily walled.
2) Choice Band Scizor : Slow U-Turn and has Bullet Punch for priority, allowing it to pick off frail and weakened threats. Scizor can also be a Fairy-killer with Bullet Punch and can make Heatran, Ferrothorn and Magnezone think twice with Superpower. However, Scizor is really slow, making it relying on Bullet Punch more often than not. Also, it has no reliable recovery so it can be easily worn down.
3) Mega Gyarados : Good offensive synergy with Dragalge and a dangerous sweeper. However, Mega Gyarados is countered by Ferrothorn, Chesnaught, Azumarill, Mega Altaria and Keldeo while also having trouble with Bisharp before Mega Evolving. All of these are dangerous threats for Team 2.
Actually, I was also thinking of nominating Regular Gyarados here since Gyarados can deal with Keldeo, Azumarill and Mega Altaria with Bounce. Problem is Regular Gyarados is easily prepared for this early in the teambuiilding stage.
Isn't it life orb?
Alright folks, only one more day to get submissions in. Thus far, we have LO Torn-T, SB Scizor, and Taunt Mega Gyarados, and hopefully we'll have a couple more options come voting time.
Random Passerby, feel free to nominate regular Gyarados. At the very least, it's something to consider.
Random Passerby, feel free to nominate regular Gyarados. At the very least, it's something to consider.
So, Team 2 will probably want Hazard Removal, and Starmie is a great candidate because its a spinner that can defeat Gengar.
Starmie has two viable sets, and really either one works. I'll nominate whichever one people think would be better for the team. (Sorry if suggesting both is against the rules.)
Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 36 SpD / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
OR
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
Pretty standard sets here. The defensive set is a reliable spinner with enough speed to outpace up through base 111s (Gengar included). Psyshock is a guaranteed OHKO against Gengar even without investment. The life orb set is a more offensive spinner, and it packs quite a bit of power, especially with life orb and analytic. Neither set can switch in on Shadow Ball or Icy Wind, but both sets can switch into Focus Blast, and the defensive set can switch in on Sludge Wave if it is at full health.
Starmie has two viable sets, and really either one works. I'll nominate whichever one people think would be better for the team. (Sorry if suggesting both is against the rules.)
Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 36 SpD / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
OR
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
Pretty standard sets here. The defensive set is a reliable spinner with enough speed to outpace up through base 111s (Gengar included). Psyshock is a guaranteed OHKO against Gengar even without investment. The life orb set is a more offensive spinner, and it packs quite a bit of power, especially with life orb and analytic. Neither set can switch in on Shadow Ball or Icy Wind, but both sets can switch into Focus Blast, and the defensive set can switch in on Sludge Wave if it is at full health.
I nominate Choice Band Azumarill for Team 2. Dragalge and Azumarill have great balanced synergy together, as type wise Azumarill defeats the Dragons, Grounds and Ice types that trouble Dragalge while Gragalge in return can deal with Grass,Poison and Electric types which can deal heavy damage to Azumarill. Move wise too they are a powerful combination due to their raw power being able to clean through teams, and Azumarill can lure in and deal heavy damage to Ferrothorn, a complete stop to Dragalge while Dragalge can setup T-Spikes for Azumarill to sweep. Here is the set:
Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Superpower
- Waterfall
Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Superpower
- Waterfall
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CB Azu should usually be running at least 164 speed EVs to outspeed univested Skarmory. I'm also a little skeptical about this nomination because the point is for team 2 to counter Gengar, and Banded AJ isn't a guaranteed OHKO without some prior damage, and Gengar is easily returning a OHKO with Sludge Wave. Not trying to bash your nom, just pointing this out.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 180-213 (69.4 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sorry, I misread LO as AV. However, even with LO, Torn-T is still really weak unless you click Hurricane (and you don't want to rely on 70% accuracy).
I have already nominated CB Scizor so I'm leaving regular Gyarados to other people. If nobody wants it, then it's also fine.
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
I like this one more since Starmie hits really hard with Analytic so it can force switches easily with its coverage. Be careful of bulky waters and Ferrothorn though.
A second part of the FSD cor, huh? CB Azumarill can act as a revenge killer against Gengar (KOes after SR and LO recoil) and hit hard in general. Superpower makes Ferro think twice before coming in (and if it mispredicts, Dragalge can break through easily). Picking this leads the team to be very slow though( since both Dragalge and Azumarill are slow) .
Gengar cannot switch in, and it is not meant to counter Gengar, but rather the the team built around Gengar. Azumarill with its very few counters and very few switch ins which are mostly easily dealt with prediction and Dragalge. Also, wearing down Gengar is not that hard, in fact, after just 4 turns of taking only LO recoil, Aqua Jet is a 100% OHKO after rocks. Plus this team needs rocks, as does every reasonable team. Yes, Gengar wins 1v1 but it cannot switch in on any move but Superpower, and no reckless player is going to throw a Spower.
EDIT:Sorry forgot to quote...Random Passerby for your last sentence
Bulky Offense is a thing, and anyway Dragalge doesn't really fit in HO.
EDIT:Sorry forgot to quote...Random Passerby for your last sentence
Bulky Offense is a thing, and anyway Dragalge doesn't really fit in HO.
You're right that wearing down Gengar isn't really that hard, but I think your perception is a bit warped if you think 4 turns of LO recoil reflects that. Azu needs a fairly high roll (needs >77.5%, and AJ does 69.4%-82.2%) to OHKO after rocks and one round of LO recoil. Also, Gengar has a 70% chance to survive a Play Rough from full health after rocks.
You make a good point with the countering Gengar vs. countering the team built around Gengar distinction, but I can't in my mind justify voting for a mon that loses to Team 1's only mon in about as many scenarios as it beats it. Just my two cents on the matter.
The main point is GENGAR CANNOT SWITCH IN. Period. And also, with 6 pokemon on a team, Dragalge already beating Gengar 1v1 and the fact Azumarill does not occupy a mega slot is just really good. And all the above Pokemon have problems as well. Ferro easily shatters Dragalge+M-Gyara, Victini is problematic for Dragalge and Scizor and Mamoswine demolishes both Tornadus-Therian and Dragalge. Azu+Dragalge leaves few glaring weaknesses and that is why I selected it. Giving my own two cents on the matter.
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