Project Counter That Threat! Mk II

[Quite Quiet]

Dragonair @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 104-123 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO

Have fun trying to hit three of these in a row when outrage is a 2hko 67% of the time unboosted and Rest will heal it back up to full and Shed Skin can cure its sleep. All the coverage moves are weak and only 4hko at best. Calling Outrage just once from Sleep Talk is enough to render it useless after rocks at +1.

 

[Choice Banned]

fishe
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 40 HP /252 Def / 216 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Heal Bell/Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Volt Switch

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 103-122 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
2 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 156-184 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 154-182 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Not dented by any attack and can Toxic it, and KOs before Typh can KO it. Kinda shaky tho. Heal Bell is just for stray burns from Fire Blast (and team support)

 

[boltsandbombers]

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Heal Bell/Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Volt Switch

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 156-184 (34.3 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 154-182 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 158-188 (53.1 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not dented by any attack and can Toxic it, and KOs before Typh can KO it. Kinda shaky tho.

Lanturn is a decent Typhlosion check, but you are using a very sub optimal EV spread. I suggest using this: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SpD to hit a leftovers number and have good mixed defenses.

 

[paper dreams]

Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
The standard specially defensive Altaria handles Typhlosion very well and can stall it out with toxic in conjunction with Roost.
Altaria comes in on any hit, tanks it and proceeds to wall it.
Calculations
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 113-133 (32 - 37.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 83-98 (23.5 - 27.7%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 60-71 (16.9 - 20.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 81-96 (22.9 - 27.1%)
0 SpA Altaria Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 78-93 (26.2 - 31.3%)

 

[xzern]

voting week will now begin. you know the drill.

Hide

ok if we're talking about the bad Typh set with Fblast, I'm going to not pick the obvious Hariyama choice and go with the second most obvious choice

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Dragon Tail
- Scald
- Sludge Bomb

Resists every hit on the set, sets up Tspikes, threatens Typh and switch-ins with Scald/phazing/etc
EDIT: ok so someone editted in extrasensory which drag still takes jack from
252 SpA Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 98-116 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
EDIT EDIT: ok we're changing it to specs now? I guess I'll stick with Drag as a hard check now but can we settle this kind of stuff before we post?
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 146-172 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery.

Edit: Changed my counter because Camerupt is 2HKOed by Specs Eruption after a little bit of prior damage.

Clearly not the most obvious choice, but I think Grumpig is a pretty underrated mon.
The problem with most of Typhlosions common checks and counters is that if they are flash fire they are probably 2HKOed by Focus Blast, Seismitoad and Rhydon are bopped by HP Grass, Camerupt only needs some prior damage to be 2HKOed, and Dragalage and Hariyama are 2HKOed by Extrasensory with some prior damage.
I present to you, the 100% counter to all Typhlosion sets:

Grumpig @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
- Heal Bell
- Psychic / Psychock
- Whirlwind / Signal Beam / Taunt / Whatever

Grumpig has a great Special Defense stat backed by an amazing ability in Thick Fat effectively giving it a resistance to Fire-type moves.

Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Grumpig: 109-130 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 38.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Blaze Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Grumpig: 121-144 (33.2 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

yumE. And in return, Grumpig can cripple it with a status move of choice, phase it out with whirlwind, or hit it with a STAB move.

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Defog
- Protect

Mantine can tank all of Typhlosion attacks, because of its Sp. Def bulk, and stall with Toxic & Protect

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 67-80 (20 - 23.9%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 66-78 (19.7 - 23.3%)

0 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 164-194 (55.2 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 92-108 (27.5 - 32.3%) Before Scald

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (67 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 42-49 (12.5 - 14.6%) After Scald

Mantine appreciates hazards support too, to weak Eruption damage.

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (114 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 70-83 (20.9 - 24.8%) (With SR)

Is Focus Blast even standard on Specs Typh? I'd imagine it is only slash-worthy at best.

Flareon @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Flare Blitz
- Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / Heal Bell

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 117-138 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Flash Fire Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 149-176 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 99-117 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Walls Typhlosion while boasting recovery in WishTect and decent enough power to bring it down in a hurry if need be. Would've suggested Altaria but that probably won't be relevant in a few month's time.

Dragonair @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 104-123 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO

Have fun trying to hit three of these in a row when outrage is a 2hko 67% of the time unboosted and Rest will heal it back up to full and Shed Skin can cure its sleep. All the coverage moves are weak and only 4hko at best. Calling Outrage just once from Sleep Talk is enough to render it useless after rocks at +1.

Lanturn
Altaria

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Flareon

 

[Choice Banned]

Mantine

 

[Disjunction]

Flareon isn't used enough for how good it is

 

[CanadianWifier]

flareon

 

[Hoole]

Flareon

 

[marilli]

Going for Grumpig here.

I feel this thread with the 'hard counter able to switch in all the moves' is has made a situation that's incredibly in a vacuum. As far as I know this has been a huge turn-off for a lot of players to contribute in this thread, because it feels very pointless and irrelevant while generating minimal discussion and innovation. I mean, usually most teams are offensive and they just rely on soft checks to things. So, having a 'hard counter' is irrelevant in an offensive metagame like NU. UU on the other hand... LOL

So all of this hard counter business is irrelevant, unless you're running stall, in which case it is really a pertinent issue to keep a switch-in to everything. That's why when we see these submissions we see sets that would be relevant in stall, and in stall only. Specially Defensive Flareon, Specially Defensive Altaria, Mantine, etc. find basically no room in teams unless you're running stall. Maybe the only set among the submissions that could potentially function remotely decent outside of stall is.. Lanturn because it can pivot and Dragalge because its a phazing hazard user? But even those, they all best function in very slow, defensive cores.

The main problem to all these Pokemon is that either in full stall, or heavily defensive balanced teams, you'll need another fire-spam check that can actually do stuff back to NP Ninetales. And of these Pokemon, only Grumpig takes it on reliably well. If you're running any of these other Fire spam check, you're leaving yourself wide open to a potential Ninetales sweep which really, really messes up your teambuilding. Unless your team is fast and offensive enough to deal with her, in which case you don't need to bother with a hard counter to anything to begin with.

 

[Roar of Noob]

Flareon. Also I like stall pokemon getting advertised. Stall is still the one playstyle to rule them all.

 

[g]

Going for Grumpig here.

I feel this thread with the 'hard counter able to switch in all the moves' is has made a situation that's incredibly in a vacuum. As far as I know this has been a huge turn-off for a lot of players to contribute in this thread, because it feels very pointless and irrelevant while generating minimal discussion and innovation. I mean, usually most teams are offensive and they just rely on soft checks to things. So, having a 'hard counter' is irrelevant in an offensive metagame like NU. UU on the other hand... LOL

So all of this hard counter business is irrelevant, unless you're running stall, in which case it is really a pertinent issue to keep a switch-in to everything. That's why when we see these submissions we see sets that would be relevant in stall, and in stall only. Specially Defensive Flareon, Specially Defensive Altaria, Mantine, etc. find basically no room in teams unless you're running stall. Maybe the only set among the submissions that could potentially function remotely decent outside of stall is.. Lanturn because it can pivot and Dragalge because its a phazing hazard user? But even those, they all best function in very slow, defensive cores.

The main problem to all these Pokemon is that either in full stall, or heavily defensive balanced teams, you'll need another fire-spam check that can actually do stuff back to NP Ninetales. And of these Pokemon, only Grumpig takes it on reliably well. If you're running any of these other Fire spam check, you're leaving yourself wide open to a potential Ninetales sweep which really, really messes up your teambuilding. Unless your team is fast and offensive enough to deal with her, in which case you don't need to bother with a hard counter to anything to begin with.

Lanturn for the reasons stated above (ik he voted grumpig but I still think that forces you to run stall and most of the time Lanturn is my switch in on balance/bo). I also think that both an offensive and a defensive answer should be chosen for these things because as amarillo already said offensive teams rely on stuff like Ninetales or Feraligatr to deal with Typhlosion which are the closest thing to switch ins that they have (or need because its not like Typhlosion has that many chances to come in)

 

[kogaza]

Flareon. Actually tested him a bit and it works on stall quite well #ReviveNUStall2014

 

[Karane]

Voting Dragonair. Like Amarillo said, rather than having one strict counter for a pokemon, I would like to see a check mentioned for offensive teams because defensive grumpig isn't gonna be on any offensive teams as a pivot. For example, check for Choice specs Typhlosion could be Feraligatr or bulky archeops in offensive teams and people can vote for it. What I mean is, we should be able to nominate check for offensive teams and counter for stall and defensive teams. What do you think xzern?

 

[Flan76]

mantine

 

[The Quasar]

IAN's Mantine

 

[ponponyo]

Grumpig

 

[Blackraven]

Flareon

 

[manodelrey]

flareon

 

[paper dreams]

Grumpig

 

[xzern]

flareon wins with 8 votes.
if you guys wanted an offensive check you should have nominated thick fat yama imo smh
but yea since NU is a mostly offensive metagame, I think we should try to vote for offensive checks more

Week 7
Counter This Threat!

Pangoro @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch​

 

[boltsandbombers]

ROCK WITH EYES

Carbink @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Moonblast

Doesnt really mind getting lefties knocked off, isnt 2HKOed by Drain Punch, and is hit for neutral damage by Gunk Shot. Parting shot is annoying, but nothing really likes getting their stats lowered.

Calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 68-81 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Pangoro Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Do I really need to calc Moonblast?

 

[Punchshroom]

Oh, so now people want checks / counters that can also fit on offensive teams? Fine then.

Qwilfish @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Pain Split
- Waterfall / Poison Jab
- filler

The first Knock Off will sting, but it usually does less than half, and Qwilfish will tank all subsequent attacks with relative ease while outspeeding Pangoro. Pain Split allows Qwilfish to compensate from the loss of its Black Sludge via Knock Off and continue walling Pangoro, and even Spikes can partially curb Pangoro's Parting Shot.

 

[Disjunction]

"offensive checks"
"weezing and carbink"

Mismagius @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam

Swapped over from chops cause I apparently don't know the exact definition of what a check was. Magius works better anyways and still functions great on offensive teams as a powerful spin blocker.