Metagame Cross Evolution

Wait, I already have Ice Punch. Ice Beam isn't going to do anything off of 70 SpA. Besides, an Intimidate is just going to boost my attack (because of Contrary).

+1 252 Atk Munchlax Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 484-572 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Munchlax Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 112-132 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- 52.8% chance to 4HKO
Wrong set. TmeZone is talking about this set:
Krookodile (Porygon2) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Trip
- Conversion
- Return
- Recover
New Stats: 115/115/125/125/120/78
Z-Conversion. Then sweep.
 
Maybe slash ice beam where return is on Porygon2 x Krok? Ice beam is for bypassing Gligar x Gyarados who otherwise stomps your sweep. oh and slash maybe Lonely/Naive(w/e the spd- +Atk nature is I don't really remember atm lol?) Lonely natured or Naughty Natured if you do take ice beam into consideration.
120 BP Power Trip borderline 2HKOes even physically defensive Gligar (either after Z-Conversion, a Moxie boost and Intimidate factored in; or when using Gligar itself as a setup fodder), more offensive Gligar shouldn't even try (admittedly Intimidate is annoying to Porygon2 x Krookodile).
As for actual physical coverage Porygon2 admittedly doesn't get much, but aside from spamming Power Trip and snowballing through Moxie boosts Porygon2 only really needs Recover. Just get Fairy-, Dark- and Fighting-types out of the way (especially Fairies that are usually bulky and played defensively, bulky Dark-types are rare but possible, and Fighting-types are more offensive checks and most of the time they shouldn't try to take boosted Power Trips), and watch out for the common Will-O-Wisp. Fighting-types can be surprised with Zen Headbutt, and you also get Earthquake and Return for STAB prior to Z-Conversion, and that's it.
 

anaconja

long day at job
is a Tiering Contributor
dsm77773, where would you rank my ideas at? I'd say around B- for all of them but I'm not too sure. Munchlax is held back by its lack of recovery outside of Rest as well as its terrible speed, Porygon2 is bogged down by its lack of coverage and 4MSS, and Litleo has poor physical bulk and can't break through much without a few boosts.
 
120 BP Power Trip borderline 2HKOes even physically defensive Gligar (either after Z-Conversion, a Moxie boost and Intimidate factored in; or when using Gligar itself as a setup fodder), more offensive Gligar shouldn't even try (admittedly Intimidate is annoying to Porygon2 x Krookodile).
As for actual physical coverage Porygon2 admittedly doesn't get much, but aside from spamming Power Trip and snowballing through Moxie boosts Porygon2 only really needs Recover. Just get Fairy-, Dark- and Fighting-types out of the way (especially Fairies that are usually bulky and played defensively, bulky Dark-types are rare but possible, and Fighting-types are more offensive checks and most of the time they shouldn't try to take boosted Power Trips), and watch out for the common Will-O-Wisp. Fighting-types can be surprised with Zen Headbutt, and you also get Earthquake and Return for STAB prior to Z-Conversion, and that's it.
I stopped reading after "or when gligar can be used as setup fodder" I need further explanation on this. seriously.... Porygon2 doesn't threaten glidos AT ALL unless it has ice beam or if its attack is boosted higher than +2(which glidos can negates with intimidate) -_- besides, ice beam helps beat Gligar-P Alola too, Tangela-P alola, or possibly even T-Bolt to help beat Doublade/Larion x Dragonite or bulky water types(Um, HELLO! porygon2 x krok has a base 125 Spatk! that it can abuse). I don't see a purpose for return either (having stab before using ZConvo is a dumb argument imo, especially considering it's unboosted and also coming off a medicore base 115atk).
 
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I stopped reading after "or when gligar can be used as setup fodder" I need further explanation on this. seriously.... Porygon2 doesn't threaten glidos AT ALL unless it has ice beam or if its attack is boosted higher than +2(which glidos can negates with intimidate) -_- besides, ice beam helps beat Gligar-P Alola too, Tangela-P alola, or possibly even T-Bolt to help beat Doublade/Larion x Dragonite or bulky water types(Um, HELLO! porygon2 x krok has a base 125 Spatk! that it can abuse).
Again, everything Porygon2 really needs is Power Trip, Z-Conversion and Recover. You can fit Ice Beam there I guess, but I'm not a fan of lowering its valuable bulk on mixed attacking variants, let alone its Speed.
I don't see a purpose for return either (having stab before using ZConvo is a dumb argument imo, especially considering it's unboosted and also coming off a medicore base 115atk).
"It doesn't have much else to run either".

dsm77773, where would you rank my ideas at? I'd say around B- for all of them but I'm not too sure. Munchlax is held back by its lack of recovery outside of Rest as well as its terrible speed, Porygon2 is bogged down by its lack of coverage and 4MSS, and Litleo has poor physical bulk and can't break through much without a few boosts.
Referring to this post:
Lurantis (Munchlax) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Superpower
- Ice Punch
- Return
- Rest
New Stats: 165/135/95/70/140/15
Sure, it doesn't get STAB, but Superpower boosting hurts like hell. Also, Munchlax becomes a freaking tank.

Volcarona (Litleo) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Hyper Voice
- Dark Pulse
New Stats:92/25/68/158/104/112
After a Quiver Dance, this thing can sweep. Watch out for priority and sashes though.

Krookodile (Porygon2) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Trip
- Conversion
- Return / Ice Beam
- Recover
New Stats: 115/115/125/125/120/78
Z-Conversion. Then sweep.
All of them have their base form ranked already. I'll add the potential crosses not mentioned (Litleo x Volcarona). Hakamo-o, mentioned in another of your posts, is ranked too. I'll test Togetic to see where it belongs, but on paper it seems pretty outclassed by Arceus-Fairy in particular, and other bulky Fairy-types (Spritzee comes to mind).
 
Hey there bois and grills
I got some nice and sweaty gimmicks for y'all to abuse >:) (some of these ideas have probably been brought up in this thread or the old one. Just warning ya. Some of this stuff is also gonna be super gimmicky or memey. Although TimeZone already know this.)

First: the classic - Misdreavus x Delcatty

Stats: 80/80/80/105/105/125
Abilities: Cute Charm/Normalize/Wonder Skin
Typing: Ghost
Ever played BH? If so, you've probably seen people running around with a Normalize + Skill Swap/Entrainment Gengar. This is basically applying the same concept, but it's more support oriented and can boost up on unsuspecting foes.
Delcatty (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe OR 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD OR 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid/Bold/Calm Nature
- Skill Swap
- Baton Pass
- Substitute / Mean Look / Taunt
- Calm Mind / Cosmic Power / Substitute / Nasty Plot
Deciding the last two moveslots is entirely up to you and what you think your team needs this for! (Which is most likely a redundant role that just takes up an extra teamslot. Just saying) The point of this set is usually to be able to force switches as well as Baton Passing boosts and Substitutes. Good team options include Gengar-M as well as most Ghost-types, and even bulkier Normal-resists can boost up, like Rhydon, Klang, etc...

Second: The Sturdy abuse - Morelull x Forretress/Magneton

Stats: Who cares ;)
Abilities: Sturdy/Overcoat OR Magnet Pull/Sturdy/Analytic
Typing: Grass/Steel OR Grass/Fairy
Sturdy is a nice ability... Especially when you're level one... Here's two separate sets for Morelull. -x Forretress is immune to Toxic, while -x Magneton has the capability of initiating Infinite Battle Clause!

Forretress (Morelull) @ Berry Juice
Level: 1
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 1 HP
Serious Nature
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Strength Sap
- Toxic
It can essentially serve as a blanket check to a lot of setup sweepers in the tier. These would include Omanyte x Espeon, Pawniard x Barbaracle, plenty of DDancers. Being immune to poison is also nice.

Magneton (Morelull) @ Leppa Berry/Berry Juice
Level: 1
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 1HP
Serious Nature
- Protect/Toxic
- Leech Seed/Toxic
- Strength Sap
- Recycle
This one is more stally variant. Unlike -x Forretress, it gets Recycle, which lets it PP stall some enemies. While this should be considered even more niche than -x Forretress, it can effectively PP-stall an entire unprepared team. Think about all them low ladder folks with their full offense teams without Rocks... This'd be the thing that screws them over.

Overall, consider these sets gimmicky, and think about how it'll affect your team when you randomly put it on. They have merit as checks to a lot of sweepers and forcing switches. Strength Sap is only an added benefit in my eyes, as it really only needs Leech Seed. These 'mons appreciate reliable hazard removal (Lairon, Tentacool, Doublade are all great choices) and love Toxic Spikes. I even ran S O A K (on a Liepard x Psyduck kek prankster op) in tandem with Toxic and Leech Seed to deal with bulky Grass- and Steel-types.

Edit: Apparently TimeZone gets triggered when someone suggests a check to his favorite Pokemon, and suggested Koff kills this... Notice the level one Sturdy, what's your Barb gonna do to this? ;)
Edit #2: Should I have highlighted it? I guess I'll go do that now...

Third: BOLTBEAM THE DREAM - Amaura x Jolteon

Stats: 87/69/60/132/93/121
Abilities: Volt Absorb/Quick Feet
Typing: ELECTRIC/ICE BOIS
Hell, who cares about the abilities? Who cares about subpar stats? You got STAB BoltBeam!
Jolteon (Amaura) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb/Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
Pretty self explanatory set IMO. Two STABs with near perfect coverage, a move to garner momentum for offensive teams, and Earth Power to cover for Fire- and Steel-types that tend to switch in. Seems nice in theory, right? WRONG. THIS THING IS GARBAGE. DON'T USE IT. ELECTABUZZ IS WAY BETTER IN ALMOST EVERY WAY. I mean, these stats, by CrossEvo standards, are really subpar. It can't switch in to SR, is affected by all hazards, has a ridiculous number of common weaknesses, etc. etc. I wouldn't recommend using this. Ever.


Well, there's my stupid gimmicks. I suggest you give the first two a try and ignore Amaura, because Amaura is garbage
dsm77773 Morelull for S-rank :^)
 
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VR Update:
In this slate I'm addressing the few Ice-types on the metagame and some low-tier Pokémon.
Hey there bois and grills
I got some nice and sweaty gimmicks for y'all to abuse >:) (some of these ideas have probably been brought up in this thread or the old one. Just warning ya. Some of this stuff is also gonna be super gimmicky or memey. Although TimeZone already know this.)

First: the classic - Misdreavus x Delcatty

Stats: 80/80/80/105/105/125
Abilities: Cute Charm/Normalize/Wonder Skin
Typing: Ghost
Ever played BH? If so, you've probably seen people running around with a Normalize + Skill Swap/Entrainment Gengar. This is basically applying the same concept, but it's more support oriented and can boost up on unsuspecting foes.
Delcatty (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe OR 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD OR 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid/Bold/Calm Nature
- Skill Swap
- Baton Pass
- Substitute / Mean Look / Taunt
- Calm Mind / Cosmic Power / Substitute / Nasty Plot
Deciding the last two moveslots is entirely up to you and what you think your team needs this for! (Which is most likely a redundant role that just takes up an extra teamslot. Just saying) The point of this set is usually to be able to force switches as well as Baton Passing boosts and Substitutes. Good team options include Gengar-M as well as most Ghost-types, and even bulkier Normal-resists can boost up, like Rhydon, Klang, etc...

Second: The Sturdy abuse - Morelull x Forretress/Magneton

Stats: Who cares ;)
Abilities: Sturdy/Overcoat OR Magnet Pull/Sturdy/Analytic
Typing: Grass/Steel OR Grass/Fairy
Sturdy is a nice ability... Especially when you're level one... Here's two separate sets for Morelull. -x Forretress is immune to Toxic, while -x Magneton has the capability of initiating Infinite Battle Clause!

Forretress (Morelull) @ Berry Juice
Level: 1
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 1 HP
Serious Nature
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Strength Sap
- Toxic
It can essentially serve as a blanket check to a lot of setup sweepers in the tier. These would include Omanyte x Espeon, Pawniard x Barbaracle, plenty of DDancers. Being immune to poison is also nice.

Magneton (Morelull) @ Leppa Berry/Berry Juice
Level: 1
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 1HP
Serious Nature
- Protect/Toxic
- Leech Seed/Toxic
- Strength Sap
- Recycle
This one is more stally variant. Unlike -x Forretress, it gets Recycle, which lets it PP stall some enemies. While this should be considered even more niche than -x Forretress, it can effectively PP-stall an entire unprepared team. Think about all them low ladder folks with their full offense teams without Rocks... This'd be the thing that screws them over.

Overall, consider these sets gimmicky, and think about how it'll affect your team when you randomly put it on. They have merit as checks to a lot of sweepers and forcing switches. Strength Sap is only an added benefit in my eyes, as it really only needs Leech Seed. These 'mons appreciate reliable hazard removal (Lairon, Tentacool, Doublade are all great choices) and love Toxic Spikes. I even ran S O A K (on a Liepard x Psyduck kek prankster op) in tandem with Toxic and Leech Seed to deal with bulky Grass- and Steel-types.

Edit: Apparently TimeZone gets triggered when someone suggests a check to his favorite Pokemon, and suggested Koff kills this... Notice the level one Sturdy, what's your Barb gonna do to this? ;)
Edit #2: Should I have highlighted it? I guess I'll go do that now...

Third: BOLTBEAM THE DREAM - Amaura x Jolteon

Stats: 87/69/60/132/93/121
Abilities: Volt Absorb/Quick Feet
Typing: ELECTRIC/ICE BOIS
Hell, who cares about the abilities? Who cares about subpar stats? You got STAB BoltBeam!
Jolteon (Amaura) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb/Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
Pretty self explanatory set IMO. Two STABs with near perfect coverage, a move to garner momentum for offensive teams, and Earth Power to cover for Fire- and Steel-types that tend to switch in. Seems nice in theory, right? WRONG. THIS THING IS GARBAGE. DON'T USE IT. ELECTABUZZ IS WAY BETTER IN ALMOST EVERY WAY. I mean, these stats, by CrossEvo standards, are really subpar. It can't switch in to SR, is affected by all hazards, has a ridiculous number of common weaknesses, etc. etc. I wouldn't recommend using this. Ever.


Well, there's my stupid gimmicks. I suggest you give the first two a try and ignore Amaura, because Amaura is garbage
dsm77773 Morelull for S-rank :^)
Actually thanks for giving me a reason to add a Do Not Use rank.
Also Amaura isn't that bad, I mean it is mostly outclassed by Electabuzz, but it is viable. I'd slash Stealth Rock since it's one of it's selling points over Electabuzz, with Earth Power you aren't even hitting Magneton which is the most common BoltBeam resist. Adding it to C- Rank even though I could see it at C. Definitely not higher.

Anorith (Cloyster): Unranked -> C Rank
Anorith is a Shell Smasher than can run dual Skill Link STABs + Shell Smash (unlike Archen), and it even offers priority in Aqua Jet (note though that it is very weak especially without STAB). At +2 it hits decently hard and it's faster than weather sweepers. However, Anorith is as all Shell Smashers a high-risk, high-reward kind of Pokémon. Its good offensive typing it's terrible defensively granting it weaknesses to common priority making it easy to even OHKO from full with priority. While it does have its own priority it is too weak to pick apart opposing priority abusers if they are not heavily weakened. Anorith is also very weak to hazards: not only do they break its Sash (Anorith doesn't rely on its Focus Sash to set-up but Sash allows it to set-up on a much wider range of Pokémon) but they also bring it in KO range of a plethora of attacks.

Abra (Espeon): Unranked -> C+ Rank

Abra has been a thing since ORAS. It is easy to see why Abra would be a common pick in Cross Evolution, having a high 145 base Speed and a huge base 190 Special Attack, and Magic Bounce. Abra can notably break Chansey + Doublade cores, since Doublade doesn't like to take special attacks and Chansey is hurt by Psyshock. Doublade x Flygon in particular can be met with a super-effective Shadow Ball.
But Abra is held back by a variety of factors. It has awkward coverage and relies on average BP moves which make up for its great Special Attack. Abra is one of those Pokémon that really NEEDS the boost Life Orb provides, otherwise it is too weak and surprisingly misses on a ton of 2HKOs. With a Life Orb, it can't run a Focus Sash to make up for its pathetic 35/25/85 bulk which essentially means that any attack will OHKO it easily, and makes switching in on predicted status moves to abuse Magic Bounce a huge gamble, since any Pokémon with an attacking move can take out Abra.
 
Just interested... Any suggestions for Water-type spinners? I'm making a hazard stack team, and I want a good defensive Water-type spinner that is not Tentacool x Milo. The one I'm using right now is Mantyke x Avalugg, which admittedly isn't that bad, but there are probably better ones out there. (Manlugg: 85/68/149/72/131/50) Actually, are there any good spinners in general? I kinda need one...

EDIT:
Actually thanks for giving me a reason to add a Do Not Use rank.
:^) My plan was a success!
 
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Just interested... Any suggestions for Water-type spinners? I'm making a hazard stack team, and I want a good defensive Water-type spinner that is not Tentacool x Milo. The one I'm using right now is Mantyke x Avalugg, which admittedly isn't that bad, but there are probably better ones out there. (Manlugg: 85/68/149/72/131/50) Actually, are there any good spinners in general? I kinda need one...

EDIT:

:^) My plan was a success!
You could try this:


194/48/65/70/104/63
Chansey (Squirtle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace / Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Soft-Boiled
- Rapid Spin
- Aromatherapy
One of the most consistent Rapid Spinners and one of the many bulky Water-types out there, its niche is being able to spin + cleric and absorbing status with Natural Cure or just being evil with Serene Grace Scald. It seems to fit your request perfectly.
 
This is more of a shitpost or a nitpick than anything, but...
Every time someone (including me) suggests a set and uses @ Life Orb, they end up tagging Life Orb instead. Hehe

Edit: Wingull x anything -> Do Not Use
Why? Because Wingull has bad stats, iffy natural movepool, and no viable evo's.
 
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Ludicrousity

The Flame's Burning Out
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
This idea was originally from Charizard8888

Lucario (Tangela) @ Leftovers
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Growth
- Energy Ball
- Flash Cannon

Stats: 95/95/145/180/70/90
New Typing: Grass / Steel
Abilities: Steadfast, Inner Focus, (Justified)

This is Tangela's special Double Dance. With Energy Ball + Flash Cannon, this thing can deal out respectable amounts of damage. It's 95/145/70 defensive stats allow it to get off either Agility, Growth or Both.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7crossevolution-87148
Me messing around with Tangela against the bot
 
Gligar Suspect Test
Gligar will be suspect tested during the month of May in Cross Evolution. Having dominated both the ORAS and the SM metagames, it's time to decide if Gligar needs to go for the metagame to develop further.

Gligar has been a popular Pokemon in the Cross Evolution metagame even before Ubers where unbanned, and once the metagame shifted to a Ubers-based one (and thus the Gyarados unban as a cross-evolution), Gligar took the metagame by storm and ruled it ever since then.

Gligar's qualities
Even though Gligar has other potential cross-evolutions, the best and more dominating by far is Gligar x Gyarados. Gligar's starting stats compliment very well Gyarados's stat gains, ending up with a 140/190/129/80/145/86 stat line. Stat-wise, Gligar's 140/129/145 bulk, aided by Intimidate, is its main claim to fame. Gligar is able to run defensive sets to abuse this great bulk (either physically defensive or the uncommon specially defensive) and its great defensive typing, which grants it immunity to Ground and Electric and key resistances to Fighting and Bug. Gligar x Gyarados also has a very high 190 base Attack allowing it to be offensively threatening even with no investment so that its defensive sets are not passive at all, and also opens the possibility of offensive sets.
Gligar's main selling point, though, is it's incredible versatility and role compression. As mentioned before, Gligar can run both offensive and defensive sets. Gligar is an incredible pivot, especially defensive variants or those with Intimidate, and can check or counter the vast majority of physical attackers by itself. Gligar's wide movepool allows it to take it a multitude of different roles to best suit its team, having access to both Stealth Rock and Defog; high powered STABs in Earthquake and Acrobatics; utility moves in Knock Off, U-turn, Tailwind and Taunt; reliable recovery in Roost and status in Toxic. Gligar also abuses its cross-evolutions movepools well, be it Gyarados (Thunder Wave, Roar, Dragon Dance, Dragon Tail, even Scald), Hariyama (Whirlwind), Persian-Alola (Parting Shot, Foul Play, Roar), Barbaracle (Shell Smash, Cross Chop) or the rare Toxapex (Toxic Spikes, Baneful Bunker, Haze, Scald, Recover). Gligar can notably get past most of its offensive checks with Dragon Dance, and most of its defensive checks with Taunt. Overall; Gligar can be an excellent defensive pivot, hazard setter and remover (Gyarados physically defensive, Gyarados specially defensive, Fur Coat Persian-Alola, Hariyama specially defensive); stallbreaker and wallbreaker (Gyarados Taunt + Swords Dance, Gyarados Taunt + Dragon Dance, Barbaracle Taunt + Shell Smash); sweeper and wincon (Gyarados Dragon Dance, Barbaracle Shell Smash); or weather setter (Hippowdon). As seen, Gligar can abuse a variety of abilities too: Intimidate (Gyarados offensive and defensive sets), Moxie (Gyarados offensive sets), Fur Coat (Persian-Alola), Thick Fat (Hariyama) and Regenerator (Toxapex).

Gligar's effect on the metagame
Gligar is a very centralizing force in the Cross Evolution metagame:
  • Gligar itself is used on a lot of teams due to the sheer utility it provides, and outclasses almost every other defensive Ground-type (some of them are still viable but mediocre in comparison with Gligar).
  • Gligar forces a lot of Pokémon to run Ice coverage to get past it (some Type:Null, Magmar, Electabuzz, some Magneton, Porygon2, Rhydon, some Tangela... and that's only A-rank and higher), even Hidden Power which is otherwise unseen in Cross Evolution. Some defensive Pokémon run Ice Beam fearing Taunt. Most of this Ice attacks don't OHKO either. Note that Cross Evolution has a notable lack of good Ice-types, especially after Sneasel was banned.
  • The 447 Speed tier (+1 Gligar x Gyarados) is an important one to hit and outspeed. Some defensive Pokémon tailor their EVs to avoid being 2HKOed by Gligar's +1 Earthquake.
  • Gligar has a very negative impact on Ground-weak Pokémon's viability, especially if they are on the niche side.
Gligar's weaknesses
Despite all the positive traits Gligar has, it is not an invincible Pokémon. The quadruple Ice weakness is its main drawback. Ice is great coverage in Cross Evolution by itself, and a lot of Pokémon have adapted to Gligar running Ice Punch, Ice Beam or Hidden Power Ice to surprise it and get past it. Water weakness is no good either in a metagame full of viable Water-types, be it offensive ones (Seadra, Primal Kyogre, Tirtouga, Omanyte, Krabby) or defensive (Finneon, Chinchou, Wailmer, Squirtle, Onix, Mega Slowbro). Gligar is also vulnerable to status: Toxic cuts down its longevity noticeably, while a burned Gligar can only be used defensively. Toxic, Will-O-Wisp and Scald are popular options and Gligar might find itself statused quite often. Gligar has an awkward Speed tier: Gligar x Gyarados has a mediocre 86 base Speed, which means that even at +1 it will be outsped by some of the fastest Pokémon in the metagame. Still, Gligar is faster than most other defensive pivots so it will pivot first. Lastly, some popular Pokémon comfortably resist both of Gligar's STABs (Doublade, Magneton) or are bulky enough to take hits from it (Type:Null, Porygon2, Wailmer...), and Acrobatics forces Gligar to go itemless (except White Herb on Shell Smash sets) so Gligar can't run items such as Lum Berry or Life Orb and sometimes misses them.

Ban criteria
As of now, as this metagame is Ubers-based, we'll follow Ubers' ban criteria. The warning signs are the following:
  • This Pokemon/ability/etc unreasonably raises the volatility of Cross Evolution. Think Moody or OHKO spam.
  • This Pokemon is ~unreasonably~ centralizing. Think 70%+ usage.
  • Related to the above point: This Pokémon is obviously in a different power bracket than most of the other cross-evolutions.
  • It is no fun to play or watch matches with this Pokémon/ability/etc (henceforth just Pokémon) allowed. Having this Pokemon in Cross Evolution makes me want to play some other meta. I would be bored as fuck to watch a match with this Pokémon allowed. This is a subjective criterion, but an important one I think: if everyone hates Cross Evolution, then why have it? It is our obligation in such a case to try to fix it.
The suspect
  • Suspect will last from today 30th of April until the 15th of May.
  • A suspect format has been created by urkerab (thank you!). Gligar is banned in such format.
  • Post your thoughts on the new metagame here.
  • Voting will start on the 7th of May. Post your vote in this thread, alongside reasoning, replays (if possible) to support your points, and your thoughts on the Gligar-less metagame.
  • One-liners will not be tolerated.
Closing words
I'll close this by asking you to please contribute to the thread positively. Not pointing to anyone in particular but please refrain from posting useless one-liners, double posts and don't be rude to other users.

Will Cross Evolution's future be a Gligar-less one? Discuss!
 
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anaconja

long day at job
is a Tiering Contributor
Gligar Suspect Test
Gligar will be suspect tested during the month of May in Cross Evolution. Having dominated both the ORAS and the SM metagames, it's time to decide if Gligar needs to go for the metagame to develop further.

Gligar has been a popular Pokemon in the Cross Evolution metagame even before Ubers where unbanned, and once the metagame shifted to a Ubers-based one (and thus the Gyarados unban as a cross-evolution), Gligar took the metagame by storm and ruled it ever since then.

Gligar's qualities
Even though Gligar has other potential cross-evolutions, the best and more dominating by far is Gligar x Gyarados. Gligar's starting stats compliment very well Gyarados's stat gains, ending up with a 140/190/129/80/145/86 stat line. Stat-wise, Gligar's 140/129/145 bulk, aided by Intimidate, is its main claim to fame. Gligar is able to run defensive sets to abuse this great bulk (either physically defensive or the uncommon specially defensive) and its great defensive typing, which grants it immunity to Ground and Electric and key resistances to Fighting and Bug. Gligar x Gyarados also has a very high 190 base Attack allowing it to be offensively threatening even with no investment so that its defensive sets are not passive at all, and also opens the possibility of offensive sets.
Gligar's main selling point, though, is it's incredible versatility and role compression. As mentioned before, Gligar can run both offensive and defensive sets. Gligar is an incredible pivot, especially defensive variants or those with Intimidate, and can check or counter the vast majority of physical attackers by itself. Gligar's wide movepool allows it to take it a multitude of different roles to best suit its team, having access to both Stealth Rock and Defog; high powered STABs in Earthquake and Acrobatics; utility moves in Knock Off, U-turn, Tailwind and Taunt; reliable recovery in Roost and status in Toxic. Gligar also abuses its cross-evolutions movepools well, be it Gyarados (Thunder Wave, Roar, Dragon Dance, Dragon Tail, even Scald), Hariyama (Whirlwind), Persian-Alola (Parting Shot, Foul Play, Roar), Barbaracle (Shell Smash, Cross Chop) or the rare Toxapex (Toxic Spikes, Baneful Bunker, Haze, Scald, Recover). Gligar can notably get past most of its offensive checks with Dragon Dance, and most of its defensive checks with Taunt. Overall; Gligar can be an excellent defensive pivot, hazard setter and remover (Gyarados physically defensive, Gyarados specially defensive, Fur Coat Persian-Alola, Hariyama specially defensive); stallbreaker and wallbreaker (Gyarados Taunt + Swords Dance, Gyarados Taunt + Dragon Dance, Barbaracle Taunt + Shell Smash); sweeper and wincon (Gyarados Dragon Dance, Barbaracle Shell Smash); or weather setter (Hippowdon). As seen, Gligar can abuse a variety of abilities too: Intimidate (Gyarados offensive and defensive sets), Moxie (Gyarados offensive sets), Fur Coat (Persian-Alola), Thick Fat (Hariyama) and Regenerator (Toxapex).

Gligar's effect on the metagame
Gligar is a very centralizing force in the Cross Evolution metagame:
  • Gligar itself is used on a lot of teams due to the sheer utility it provides, and outclasses almost every other defensive Ground-type (some of them are still viable but mediocre in comparison with Gligar).
  • Gligar forces a lot of Pokémon to run Ice coverage to get past it (some Type:Null, Magmar, Electabuzz, some Magneton, Porygon2, Rhydon, some Tangela... and that's only A-rank and higher), even Hidden Power which is otherwise unseen in Cross Evolution. Some defensive Pokémon run Ice Beam fearing Taunt. Most of this Ice attacks don't OHKO either. Note that Cross Evolution has a notable lack of good Ice-types, especially after Sneasel was banned.
  • The 447 Speed tier (+1 Gligar x Gyarados) is an important one to hit and outspeed. Some defensive Pokémon tailor their EVs to avoid being 2HKOed by Gligar's +1 Earthquake.
  • Gligar has a very negative impact on Ground-weak Pokémon's viability, especially if they are on the niche side.
Gligar's weaknesses
Despite all the positive traits Gligar has, it is not an invincible Pokémon. The quadruple Ice weakness is its main drawback. Ice is great coverage in Cross Evolution by itself, and a lot of Pokémon have adapted to Gligar running Ice Punch, Ice Beam or Hidden Power Ice to surprise it and get past it. Water weakness is no good either in a metagame full of viable Water-types, be it offensive ones (Seadra, Primal Kyogre, Tirtouga, Omanyte, Krabby) or defensive (Finneon, Chinchou, Wailmer, Squirtle, Onix, Mega Slowbro). Gligar is also vulnerable to status: Toxic cuts down its longevity noticeably, while a burned Gligar can only be used defensively. Toxic, Will-O-Wisp and Scald are popular options and Gligar might find itself statused quite often. Gligar has an awkward Speed tier: Gligar x Gyarados has a mediocre 86 base Speed, which means that even at +1 it will be outsped by some of the fastest Pokémon in the metagame. Still, Gligar is faster than most other defensive pivots so it will pivot first. Lastly, some popular Pokémon comfortably resist both of Gligar's STABs (Doublade, Magneton) or are bulky enough to take hits from it (Type:Null, Porygon2, Wailmer...), and Acrobatics forces Gligar to go itemless (except White Herb on Shell Smash sets) so Gligar can't run items such as Lum Berry or Life Orb and sometimes misses them.

Ban criteria
As of now, as this metagame is Ubers-based, we'll follow Ubers' ban criteria. The warning signs are the following:
  • This Pokemon/ability/etc unreasonably raises the volatility of Cross Evolution. Think Moody or OHKO spam.
  • This Pokemon is ~unreasonably~ centralizing. Think 70%+ usage.
  • Related to the above point: This Pokémon is obviously in a different power bracket than most of the other cross-evolutions.
  • It is no fun to play or watch matches with this Pokémon/ability/etc (henceforth just Pokémon) allowed. Having this Pokemon in Cross Evolution makes me want to play some other meta. I would be bored as fuck to watch a match with this Pokémon allowed. This is a subjective criterion, but an important one I think: if everyone hates Cross Evolution, then why have it? It is our obligation in such a case to try to fix it.
The suspect
  • Suspect will last from today 30th of April until the 15th of May.
  • A suspect format has been created by urkerab (thank you!). Gligar is banned in such format.
  • Post your thoughts on the new metagame here.
  • Voting will start on the 7th of May. Post your vote in this thread, alongside reasoning, replays (if possible) to support your points, and your thoughts on the Gligar-less metagame.
  • One-liners will not be tolerated.
Closing words
I'll close this by asking you to please contribute to the thread positively. Not pointing to anyone in particular but please refrain from posting useless one-liners, double posts and don't be rude to other users.

Will Cross Evolution's future be a Gligar-less one? Discuss![/hide]
Jesus, what took so long?

Clearly Gligar is centralizing - it has huge 140/129/145 bulk along with Intimidate and recovery; U-turn is just the icing on the top so Gligar can repeatedly lower the opponent's attack.
Clearly Gligar is in a higher power bracket - even 4x super-effective hits and boosted attacks don't kill it. It can then counter anything with Swords Dance and Earthquake or Acrobatics.
+2 252+ SpA Omanyte(Espeon) Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gligar: 311-366 (64.3 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Omanyte: 175-207 (82.9 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gligar: 376-444 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 207-244 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gligar in Heavy Rain: 372-440 (77 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Krokorok(Blaziken) Power Trip (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 261-308 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krokorok: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(There are many more, I just don't know at the moment)
It takes Kyurem-W to kill it, and it's not guaranteed, either:
252 SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-White Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 408-484 (84.4 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Gligar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-White: 276-326 (70.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Although Water Bubble absoulutely destroys it:
+2 252+ Atk Water Bubble Tirtouga(Araquanid) Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 864-1020 (178.8 - 211.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Water Bubble Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 648-768 (134.1 - 159%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(there aren't usage calcs for ROM so idk about Gligar, but I'd imagine its usage is high up there)

tl;dr Ban Gligar.
 
According to all your quotes, is really Gligar the problem? Or crossevolving into Gyarados? Please suspect the right thing next time.

Gligar isn't broken at all if crossevolving into Gyarados and Milotic are banned (which should be the primary suspects before even suspecting Gligar) cause its low Special Defense can be exploited by the phletora of Special attackers. Of course Gyarados gives it excellent physical bulk and attack but remember that if you run a team exclusive of physical attackers of course you'll lose to Gligar. That's why offense needs to use special attackers as well.

I think crossevolving into Gyarados/Milotic should be the primary suspect before Gligar, cause they break a lot of mons, NOT ONLY Gligar. Once those gone, you'll see Gligar isn't that hard to defeat. I personally had no problem with it at all, with offense, balance, or stall. And it's not overcentralizing, cause of course you need to take it into account, like all S ranks.

Reconsider the suspect, imo you are suspecting the wrong thing.

Also when you say we are forced to run Ice type coverage to pass Gligar, don't forget that Ice is awesome coverage in general and hits a lot of things super effectively, not only Gligar.
 

Ludicrousity

The Flame's Burning Out
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
According to all your quotes, is really Gligar the problem? Or crossevolving into Gyarados? Please suspect the right thing next time.

Gligar isn't broken at all if crossevolving into Gyarados and Milotic are banned (which should be the primary suspects before even suspecting Gligar) cause its low Special Defense can be exploited by the phletora of Special attackers. Of course Gyarados gives it excellent physical bulk and attack but remember that if you run a team exclusive of physical attackers of course you'll lose to Gligar. That's why offense needs to use special attackers as well.

I think crossevolving into Gyarados/Milotic should be the primary suspect before Gligar, cause they break a lot of mons, NOT ONLY Gligar. Once those gone, you'll see Gligar isn't that hard to defeat. I personally had no problem with it at all, with offense, balance, or stall. And it's not overcentralizing, cause of course you need to take it into account, like all S ranks.

Reconsider the suspect, imo you are suspecting the wrong thing.

Also when you say we are forced to run Ice type coverage to pass Gligar, don't forget that Ice is awesome coverage in general and hits a lot of things super effectively, not only Gligar.
While I agree with pretty much all of this, It would be unfair to destroy some pokemon that rely on Evolving into Milo or Gyara to be good in the meta. Sure, they can be extremely strong, but so can a lot of things in this meta
 
While I agree with pretty much all of this, It would be unfair to destroy some pokemon that rely on Evolving into Milo or Gyara to be good in the meta. Sure, they can be extremely strong, but so can a lot of things in this meta
I don't really agree with this, sorry Ludi, but 80% of the time, the Pokemon crossevolving into Gyarados/Milotic are Gligar, Scyther, Spritzee, Tangela, Mantyke or Type Null, which can use very well over crossevolutions. Nothing else.

Banning Gyarados and Milotic would maybe make also Sneasel come back (though there's still Breloom breaking it so maybe not)
 
According to all your quotes, is really Gligar the problem? Or crossevolving into Gyarados? Please suspect the right thing next time.

Gligar isn't broken at all if crossevolving into Gyarados and Milotic are banned (which should be the primary suspects before even suspecting Gligar) cause its low Special Defense can be exploited by the phletora of Special attackers. Of course Gyarados gives it excellent physical bulk and attack but remember that if you run a team exclusive of physical attackers of course you'll lose to Gligar. That's why offense needs to use special attackers as well.

I think crossevolving into Gyarados/Milotic should be the primary suspect before Gligar, cause they break a lot of mons, NOT ONLY Gligar. Once those gone, you'll see Gligar isn't that hard to defeat. I personally had no problem with it at all, with offense, balance, or stall. And it's not overcentralizing, cause of course you need to take it into account, like all S ranks.

Reconsider the suspect, imo you are suspecting the wrong thing.

Also when you say we are forced to run Ice type coverage to pass Gligar, don't forget that Ice is awesome coverage in general and hits a lot of things super effectively, not only Gligar.
The thing is that I don't think that Gyarados necessarily breaks any other mons than Gligar, I've touched on this before but Gyara doesn't provide the greatest movepool in the world other than Dragon Dance, a few good coverage moves (Earthquake is notable), and a few random utility moves like Dragon Tail, Thunder Wave and Taunt. Aside from the massive stat gains and ability, all of what makes Gligar so formidable comes from Gligar itself: A Ground-type at base which gives Gligar neutrality to Stealth Rock as well as a strong STAB attack, reliable recovery in the form of Roost, reliable pivoting in U-turn, and other useful tools like Stealth Rock, Knock Off, and for offensive sets a secondary STAB in the form of Acrobatics are all things that Gyarados can't just bestow on any target of its choosing. While some candidates like Hippopotas have some of these traits, none of them can match Gligar's full toolset, or indeed its high, balanced stats which complement Gyarados' stat gains incredibly well (well, except Null for that last bit, but honestly Null's bases are pretty busted anyway)

With that said, the only qualm I have with banning Gligar is that it still has plenty to offer to the metagame when evolving into Pokémon other than Gyarados, without being broken; it's not as versatile as something like Null by any means, but its typing and array of useful offensive and utility moves make it able to pull off a lot of different evolutions well. Gyarados is certainly what made it rise to the top of the meta in such dominating fashion, but even without it it'd still be an important staple of the meta. (Which, sentiment aside, probably makes it more likely for Gligar to be banned, as it's further evidence that Gligar itself is the more important aspect when you're evaluating the performance of Gligar x Gyarados.)

Seconding the notion of a possible Milotic suspect in the future though, if anything just because it actually provides reliable recovery to its users, although with bulky CM sets from the likes of Spritzee, it's hard to say whether you'd actually want it over good old RestTalk, since Marvel Scale is a potent ability for CM users.
 

Sondero

Don't you dare say you'd rather lose!
is a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnus
How are Cross evolutions that on paper result in the cross-evolved Pokemon getting less speed handled? I'm asking because in This match at turn 19, you can see a Karrablast cross-evolved with Golisopod (which would in theory have base 20 Speed, resulting in a maximum of 152 base speed) outspeed a Gligar cross-evolved with Gyarados (which ould in theory have base 86 speed, resulting in a minimum of 159 speed). The Golisopod (Karrablast) was using Liquidation and the Gyarados (Gligar) was using Earthquake, so there was no mess-up in the priority-order. Also, the Golisopod (Karrablast) had their Leftovers knocked off, while the Gligar held Leftovers, so there wasn't any items like Iron Ball or Choice Scarf in the mix.
 

anaconja

long day at job
is a Tiering Contributor
How are Cross evolutions that on paper result in the cross-evolved Pokemon getting less speed handled? I'm asking because in This match at turn 19, you can see a Karrablast cross-evolved with Golisopod (which would in theory have base 20 Speed, resulting in a maximum of 152 base speed) outspeed a Gligar cross-evolved with Gyarados (which ould in theory have base 86 speed, resulting in a minimum of 159 speed). The Golisopod (Karrablast) was using Liquidation and the Gyarados (Gligar) was using Earthquake, so there was no mess-up in the priority-order. Also, the Golisopod (Karrablast) had their Leftovers knocked off, while the Gligar held Leftovers, so there wasn't any items like Iron Ball or Choice Scarf in the mix.
There's a glitch on PS where when you switch out a pokemon and switch it back in, the boosts are reapplied. Basically the Karrablast got negative speed, causing it to underflow to a very high number and outspeed Gligar.

Here's an example of how ridiculous it can become: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7crossevolution-570293897
Gligar, after switching about 15 times, reaches ~5000 attack, allowing it to OHKO a 4x resist (crit didn't matter)

welp no crossevo tours until code is fixed EDIT: crossevo tour tomorrow lord have mercy on us all

EDIT2: Using cross-evolutions that lower base defenses and switching them out repeatedly causes them to underflow as well, causing stuff like Magikarp to become fcuking walls
 
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There's a glitch on PS where when you switch out a pokemon and switch it back in, the boosts are reapplied. Basically the Karrablast got negative speed, causing it to underflow to a very high number and outspeed Gligar.

Here's an example of how ridiculous it can become: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7crossevolution-570293897
Gligar, after switching about 15 times, reaches ~5000 attack, allowing it to OHKO a 4x resist (crit didn't matter)

welp no crossevo tours until code is fixed EDIT: crossevo tour tomorrow lord have mercy on us all

EDIT2: Using cross-evolutions that lower base defenses and switching them out repeatedly causes them to underflow as well, causing stuff like Magikarp to become fcuking walls
Haha, this reminds me of the time in Gen 6 Cross Evolution when there was a glitch that allowed fully-evolved Pokémon to evolve into themselves; it didn't trigger again upon switching back in, but certain Pokémon like Escavalier had underflowed speed stats which caused them to move first all the time, like you're seeing here.

I think this same glitch affected another metagame awhile back, I think it was the one where you could hold one of the type-based power-boosting items and it'd give you that type and some stat mods? If anyone who was involved in that meta's coding reads this, do you remember how it was fixed?
 
Cross Evolution code bugs often (guessing it's because it seems to be a quite complex one) so please report any bugs you might find.
According to all your quotes, is really Gligar the problem? Or crossevolving into Gyarados? Please suspect the right thing next time.

Gligar isn't broken at all if crossevolving into Gyarados and Milotic are banned (which should be the primary suspects before even suspecting Gligar) cause its low Special Defense can be exploited by the phletora of Special attackers. Of course Gyarados gives it excellent physical bulk and attack but remember that if you run a team exclusive of physical attackers of course you'll lose to Gligar. That's why offense needs to use special attackers as well.

I think crossevolving into Gyarados/Milotic should be the primary suspect before Gligar, cause they break a lot of mons, NOT ONLY Gligar. Once those gone, you'll see Gligar isn't that hard to defeat. I personally had no problem with it at all, with offense, balance, or stall. And it's not overcentralizing, cause of course you need to take it into account, like all S ranks.

Reconsider the suspect, imo you are suspecting the wrong thing.

Also when you say we are forced to run Ice type coverage to pass Gligar, don't forget that Ice is awesome coverage in general and hits a lot of things super effectively, not only Gligar.
Gyarados itself does not break any mon other than Gligar, which still could potentially be dominant without it. Gyarados is, admittedly, Gligar's best and most dominant cross-evolution, but as stated, there are many more, which focus on a particular role (offense/defense) and still fulfill it really well.
It could be argued that Milotic breaks a lot of Pokémon (the most infamous one being Spritzee). In this case, the key part of the cross-evolution is Milotic (offering recovery, huge stat boosts, and Marvel Scale; among others). As seen in the OP as soon as the cross-evolution thread was approved (with Cross Evolution being playable for months with no banlist other than the likes of Mega Rayquaza & Shedinja), the initial metagame was stomped by pretty broken threats that are being suspected one-by-one. Gligar is in this list, so is Milotic. I'm definitely open for a Milotic suspect in the future.
This is not the case of Gyarados. Yes, it's the main reason Gligar is suspected, but does it really break a lot of mons? An infamous Gyarados cross-evolution (other than Gligar) is Scyther, which is notable for being much, much worse on practice than it is on paper. The added Flying-type Gyarados adds hinders a lot of Pokémon, not to mention it does not offer any Flying-type STAB to start with (Bounce is a bad move outside of maybe Z-Bounce, which is unexplored in Cross Evolution - yet).
Gligar is the key part of the Gligar x Gyarados cross: most of the time, the 4 moves are taken from Gligar (this is the case of most defensive sets, the only exception being maybe full stall teams who want to run Roar; and offensive sets which lack Dragon Dance such as stallbreaker Taunt + Swords Dance). Taunt, Earthquake, U-turn, Roost, Swords Dance, Defog, Stealth Rock... all come from Gligar's movepool. The typing comes entirely from Gligar, giving it a notable neutrality to Stealth Rock, an issue that hinders most Gyarados cross-evolutions and would hinder Gligar immensely. The combination of high starting stats + a great movepool + a good typing make Gligar a very strong base Pokémon that it is great with a lot of cross-evolutions. Gyarados is the best, sure, but there's Hariyama too. And Persian-Alola, Toxapex, Barbaracle, Hippowdon... the list goes on. Banning Gyarados would be a huge hit to Gligar (and perhaps Gligar only) but it still feels like "nerfing" what it is actually a potentially broken element in the metagame. Gligar could still be one of the most dominant Pokémon in the metagame. Instead of Gligar x Gyarados all the time, you'd just see Gligar's crosses diversify to adapt to their team's needs.
And yes, Ice is great coverage on the metagame. But, despite the great coverage Ice-type offers, does everything that it is currently forced to run Ice Beam / Ice Punch / Hidden Power Ice actually want to? Many defensive Pokémon would actually fit a utility move over Ice Beam. Rhydon would actually prefer being able to run Double Dance. Magmar x Gallade would rather run Knock Off to smack Dusclops and thus be able to beat all Unaware. And so on. Of course, banning a Pokémon because it forces "imperfect" sets won't happen. However, you can't deny that Gligar has a very strong effect on the metagame. It is way more influential than other S-ranks, thus it has its own S+ Rank (a rank reserved in metagames centralized around one Pokémon, where S+ holds the centralizing mon). Gligar itself it is used on half of the teams, it invalidates most competition (makes Primal Groudon look mediocre compared to it), dictates an entire Speed tier, restricts the freedom of the metagame.
If you think Gligar shouldn't be suspected... just vote No Ban.
 
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i saw the problem about the stat keeping increasing on each switch in. It's probably a bug in the code itself, it also happens on DragonHeaven.

To return to Gligar, actually banning it would lend to a ban of Gallade crossevolutions, as Gligar was pretty much their only check in Stall, as they usually have to choose between Knock Off for Dusclops x Clefable or Ice Punch for Gligar X Persian Alola. You can try anything else you want, most Gallade crossevolutions (the most popular being Magmar and Electabuzz) are destroyed.
 
Cross Evolution code bugs often (guessing it's because it seems to be a quite complex one) so please report any bugs you might find.

Gyarados itself does not break any mon other than Gligar, which still could potentially be dominant without it. Gyarados is, admittedly, Gligar's best and most dominant cross-evolution, but as stated, there are many more, which focus on a particular role (offense/defense) and still fulfill it really well.
It could be argued that Milotic breaks a lot of Pokémon (the most infamous one being Spritzee). In this case, the key part of the cross-evolution is Milotic (offering recovery, huge stat boosts, and Marvel Scale; among others). As seen in the OP as soon as the cross-evolution thread was approved (with Cross Evolution being playable for months with no banlist other than the likes of Mega Rayquaza & Shedinja), the initial metagame was stomped by pretty broken threats that are being suspected one-by-one. Gligar is in this list, so is Milotic. I'm definitely open for a Milotic suspect in the future.
This is not the case of Gyarados. Yes, it's the main reason Gligar is suspected, but does it really break a lot of mons? An infamous Gyarados cross-evolution (other than Gligar) is Scyther, which is notable for being much, much worse on paper than in practice. The added Flying-type Gyarados adds hinders a lot of Pokémon, not to mention it does not offer any Flying-type STAB to start with (Bounce is a bad move outside of maybe Z-Bounce, which is unexplored in Cross Evolution - yet).
Gligar is the key part of the Gligar x Gyarados cross: most of the time, the 4 moves are taken from Gligar (this is the case of most defensive sets, the only exception being maybe full stall teams who want to run Roar; and offensive sets which lack Dragon Dance such as stallbreaker Taunt + Swords Dance). Taunt, Earthquake, U-turn, Roost, Swords Dance, Defog, Stealth Rock... all come from Gligar's movepool. The typing comes entirely from Gligar, giving it a notable neutrality to Stealth Rock, an issue that hinders most Gyarados cross-evolutions and would hinder Gligar immensely. The combination of high starting stats + a great movepool + a good typing make Gligar a very strong base Pokémon that it is great with a lot of cross-evolutions. Gyarados is the best, sure, but there's Hariyama too. And Persian-Alola, Toxapex, Barbaracle, Hippowdon... the list goes on. Banning Gyarados would be a huge hit to Gligar (and perhaps Gligar only) but it still feels like "nerfing" what it is actually a potentially broken element in the metagame. Gligar could still be one of the most dominant Pokémon in the metagame. Instead of Gligar x Gyarados all the time, you'd just see Gligar's crosses diversify to adapt to their team's needs.
And yes, Ice is great coverage on the metagame. But, despite the great coverage Ice-type offers, does everything that it is currently forced to run Ice Beam / Ice Punch / Hidden Power Ice actually want to? Many defensive Pokémon would actually fit a utility move over Ice Beam. Rhydon would actually prefer being able to run Double Dance. Magmar x Gallade would rather run Knock Off to smack Dusclops and thus be able to beat all Unaware. And so on. Of course, banning a Pokémon because it forces "imperfect" sets won't happen. However, you can't deny that Gligar has a very strong effect on the metagame. It is way more influential than other S-ranks, thus it has its own S+ Rank (a rank reserved in metagames centralized around one Pokémon, where S+ holds the centralizing mon). Gligar itself it is used on half of the teams, it invalidates most competition (makes Primal Groudon look mediocre compared to it), dictates an entire Speed tier, restricts the freedom of the metagame.
If you think Gligar shouldn't be suspected... just vote No Ban.


Excellent post! To add on to this post(you and a couple others said everything else already about its defensive capabilities), So I'll talk little bit about its offensive set, the most commonly used one (imo at least).

Gligar
Ability: Moxie or intimidate (Whatever the user prefer usually)
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Taunt / Substitute
- Acrobatics
- Roost

This set was common throughout Gen 6(Or at least when I started playing everyone used it) and can be used on Bulky offense, Hyper Offense, Balance, and even stall. This set alone (imo) is what makes Gligar x Gyarados truly broken when compared to other Gyarados abusers. The EV spread focuses on maximum speed and overall bulk. Ice is common coverage yea, but like DSM said, you're still not safe! there are very very few pokes that can reliable Ohko Gligar x Gyarados even WITH ice coverage (There are even some pkmn that can't beat it even when they're boosted like Electabuzz x Vivillon +1 HP ice cant reliably OHKO this set unless it switches in on SR).

Seriously, if it isn't STAB Water/Ice coverage, and (especially) not boosted, most likely you'll find yourself with damaged or fainted Pkmns trying to stop it. Personally, I used Intimidate for an easier setup opportunity, while moxie can turn Gligar X Gyarados into a fearsome sweeper after just one DD. I see no reason in investing in Attack, it's honestly sky high already but if you prefer differently, well.....more power more pleasure? Lol the best part though, is TAUNT and ROOST. These two moves(mostly roost) puts Gligar on a different level as opposed to other Gyarados users. Taunt is naturally learned anyways(As said before, Gligar already has the perfect movepool, The boosts + Abilities + DD is what broke it!), having longevity with an already good typing in Ground/Flying and 140/129/145 bulk is pretty hard to ignore. I've even noticed stall using D-Tail as opposed to using roar/Whirlwind because taunt will easily allow Glidos to 6-0. Not saying anything is wrong with Dtail, just that glidos once again Forces any phazer that have D-Tail to run it anyways(E.g you don't have a choice really), even if you do prefer Roar/Whirlwind.

Bottom Line, it's pretty damn centralising as far as voting, I'll wait a little longer, I wanna see how this plays out first. Maybe after reading a few more discussions will help.

Edit: It also has a respectable speed tier(86)being one of the FEW Gyarados user that can take advantage of Dragon Dance.
 
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