D/P Meta Game: 1 Year Later Disscusion

I think this has potential to be a great thread, but the format is kind of weak. I hope discussion stays closer toward the topic of the thread, and not just which pokemon are good and which are bad in D/P. Let's talk about what has happened over the course of this last year of the metagame, and why.

Anyhow, my observations:

Celebi has to be number one on every list of this type. It's seriously not even close. Think back to what was said about Celebi losing out early in the metagame, and think about how often it is used now, and how sickly effective it is no matter what it's doing. It's typing is usually referred to as being a negative aspect, but it's resists are actually very helpful, and most non-bug super effective hits are not even OHKOing it. Ice Beams from around the normal 'OHKO Garchomp' range are nowhere near enough to stop it, even when it's normally focusing on physical defense. Actually, there's no need to even continue, the numbers don't lie: Celebi was 66th in shoddybattle usage in October of last year - In March it was 16th.

Heatran usage has increased quite a bit as well, but what is more apparent to me is how it's usage has been refined. 90% of Heatrans early on were Specs or Scarf and incredibly suicidal. Now, people have realized that Heatran can do more than that. You see Stealth Rock, Sleep Talkers, and almost as much Lava Plume as Fire Blast. Overheat is now a rarity. Heatrans don't run explosion as often, and when they do they use it sparingly because the typing is just so damn useful that it's hard to justify losing a key member of the team unless it's going down anyway.

Again benefitting from a unique typing and a large stat pool, Zapdos ends up being extremely useful. It has reliable healing, and is one of the better ways to deal with pokemon like Yanmega and Togekiss who can cause severe damage otherwise. I was getting a huge amount of mileage out of the SpDef focused Resttalker early on, but as long as it has a bunch of HP EVs it can counter a surprising amount of pokemon out there. STAB Tbolt from 125 base SpAtk hurts, and even now sometimes new teams I make end up having no really good switch into it (that can also deal with HP ice or t-wave and actually threaten Zapdos).

Those three pokemon exemplify what the D/P Metagame is about right now. Beneficial typing, strong defenses, and ability to threaten with offensive means as well. Also, being able to take a strong hit from both sides of the spectrum is huge with all the Life Orb wallbreakers out there. Scouting a set without losing your physical tank to a Draco Meteor first is great. With this kind of logic, other pokemon like Jirachi become serious assets to any team.



It should come as no surprise that Breloom has lost out. Gone are the days in which you come across people with no sleep taker. Gone are the days in which Breloom single handedly wins half your battles once you get him in and behind a substitute. I wouldn't say Celebi has singlehandedly ruined Breloom, but it's certainly the biggest factor out there. I started running Breloom with Stone Edge again recently, and though it's great for all those annoying Crobats and Zapdos laughing at you, it does less to Celebi than Focus Punch does anyhow. Facade is your best bet, but you still don't beat sleeping Celebi with it unless you're stupid lucky.

Honestly, most of the pokemon who have lost out have done so due to their inability to get past the pokemon who are gaining. Azelf without HP Fighting can do more to Blissey than it can to Heatran for goodness sake (Explode). I personally find Azelf impossible to use effectively unless you use either HP fighting or U-turn on the first turn you're out (and usually the second turn as well, if you even get in again before you know their entire team). Even Zam seems to be more effective lately than Azelf, tricking Specs onto something that doesn't want them and then missing with a Focus Blast and dying.

Porygon-Z suffers, but from a different problem. It rarely has the speed to sweep after a Nasty Plot, it rarely has the power to sweep after an Agility, and choice versions are too predictable. Between the plethora of good Steels and the easy switch-ins for Gengar, it's often more of a liability than anything to use Adaptability over Download, because at least with Download you're more apt to use a move that'll punish the switch rather than spamming Tri-Attack.

As for Electivire, it was getting walled silly by Cresselia and Swampert since day one, and failing to OHKO even Gliscor with Ice Punch is sad. I remember first experimenting with passing him Bulk Ups from Floatzel with only mild success (It was more Floatzel's dying than anything). When it worked out it was amazing, when it didn't, yeahhh. The next step was Nasty Plots from Togekiss to a special version (with Cross Chop, of course), and that was an immediate success. Even when Electivire didn't get boosts, he was still infinitely more effective than the physical version. I don't think it's taken much of a hit - people were just expecting it to sweep after doing nothing but getting in on an electric attack.



Apologies for the wall of text. :D
 
i agree with most of the lists, but i don't agree with breloom. leech seed breloom breaks stall like nothing else and seed bomb loom can still be effective as long as you're willing to attempt a lot of subs. it's not hard to find someone switch into their sleep talker only to just see breloom sub. then they're forced to take a hit.

what are the most common sleep talkers? i'll say cress, swampert, suicune, heatran and hera. cress gets beaten by the sub seed version, swampert gets OHKO'd by seed bomb, suicune can;t set up on it, heatran dies to focus punch, hera can take a substantial hit either way. as long as you're not just blindly sporing on the first turn, you can still have a big advantage over your opponent.
 
i agree with most of the lists, but i don't agree with breloom. leech seed breloom breaks stall like nothing else and seed bomb loom can still be effective as long as you're willing to attempt a lot of subs. it's not hard to find someone switch into their sleep talker only to just see breloom sub. then they're forced to take a hit.

what are the most common sleep talkers? i'll say cress, swampert, suicune, heatran and hera. cress gets beaten by the sub seed version, swampert gets OHKO'd by seed bomb, suicune can;t set up on it, heatran dies to focus punch, hera can take a substantial hit either way. as long as you're not just blindly sporing on the first turn, you can still have a big advantage over your opponent.

I'd have to mention Zapdos as a pretty possible Sleep talker.
 
Suprisingly Moltres doesn't do too badly in the DP metagame especially when you consider 50% SR damage, Heatran and Infernape. Theres been a famous Scarfed set made up recently and I've been running a Specsed (more like sexed, hurr) Fire blast set since the dawn of time. Moltres really has found the Niche in the game for high powered STAB and especially Fire with the sudden drop in use of bulky waters. In the sun Moltres can 2HKO Blissey with STABed, Specs, Fire Blast something not many pokemon are able to boast. It's not even difficult to get in with decent defensive stats and a suprising array of resistances and only 3 weaknesses. It also functions well as a sleep talker since many Sleepers are grass type.
 
Most proficient special sweepers have a way around blissey.
Actually, Porygon-Z is ONE OF the few special sweepers with a way past Blissey. NP Hyper Beam, Adaptability Return, and Sub Nasty Plot (it works wonders) all make it beat Blissey easily. All the other special attackers have to Explode to get past Bliss (BOAH and McGar excluded) but Porygon-Z hits so insanely hard it doesn't need to.

The metagame has shifted away from him again. When the annoying scarf craze dies down again (has anyone noticed it goes in phases) Porygon-Z will become a superstar again.

I've noticed the game goes like this:

Offensive Teams -> Scarfed Pokemon -> Stall -> Offensive Teams

People use Offensive teams to beat Stall, and then to counter offensive teams, we scarf everything, and to beat all the scarfers, we make stall teams. On Shoddy everything is scarfed right now, but when it goes back to Stall Porygon-Z will rein supreme.
 
i noticed that my porygon-z is sweeping again must be these phases. mine runs anti-gengar and leftovers so its surprises people.

i dont think smeargle has failed, i see more smeargles recently then i have for a few months and its still very good at a sleeping lead.

i have a pokemon put in the metagame which is really in my view underated
leafeon, it can set up without the need of subbing against physicals, sleep, set itself up (2 SD leaf blade is very nasty) or pass on boosts to something else.

infurnape is another winner, a fire type thats fast and can tear through its counters (NP + grass knot - dead calmcune)

a big loser is flygon. garchomp killed it
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Tpunch IcePunch Cross Chop and EQ hit 14 types super effective? That can rain on your parade. I do agree with the fact that its Att stat is a wee bit lowww compared to some other physical sweepers every one is using now adays, since most physical sweepers have SD or DD.
While it does hit 14 types super effective it can't stat up, and Tpunch/Ipunch are only 75 base power. The metagame has leaned more towards pokes that can either wall really effectively, or stat up to sweep.

Sadly, physical Elec is most effective after getting a speed boost to take down their dragon or sweeper, yet most of them have Earthquake and won't be triggering the speed boost. He's a pretty effective Blissey counter IMO because he can eat Twave/Tbolt and speed up then own it with Cross Chop, but overall he can't sweep very effectively in my experience. All it takes is a phaser to get rid of him even with the speed boost, and without the speed boost the very things he should be killing will outspeed and take him out due to poor defenses. That and once the Gyara to Elec swap became overused it was a really obvious switch that most people brought a way to handle.

Also I'd like to add Umbreon to my list of worsts, poor guy started out as a great set up lead for combos and then hit the bucket when everyone and their uncle had a fighting attack to take out this defensive type.
 
D/P is also more offensive minded than last years Meta Game, and Claydol just doesn't have the resistances and stats to hang out with the big dogs I guess.
I agree Claydol didn't benefit from the new additions, but umm, Fighting and Rock resistance plus Ground immunity, coupled with good defenses? I wouldn't say he doesn't have the resistances and stats...
 
skiddle said:
Actually, Porygon-Z is ONE OF the few special sweepers with a way past Blissey.
Out of the top fifty, I chose the pokemon that could be considered special sweepers.

Gengar - Focus Punch, Focus Blast, and Explosion all make short work of blissey.
Lucario - Aura sphere STAB will 2hko blissey with ease
Heatran - Metal Sound, and the ability to stall with rest/talk.
Infernape - cc is gg
Starmie - Stopped
Celebi - 101 subs and calm mind can outstall
Azelf - Explosion and Nasty Plot can kill off blissey
Jirachi - 101 subs and calm mind can outstall
Togekiss - NP and aura sphere
Yanmega -Stopped
Magnezone - Stopped
Suicune - 101 subs anf calm mind can outstall. Phazing if blissey calm minds as well.
Milotic - Kind of ttopped, but can toxicstall and recover HP.
Jolteon - Stopped
Porygonz - You already said
Kingdra - Waterfall OHKO's or 2HKO's
Roserade - Toxic Spikes and Sleep Powder can at least incapacitate blissey. Otherwise Stopped.

Out of the 17 pokemon picked, only 5 are stopped by blissey. As I said, most proficient special sweepers have a way around blissey.
 

Syberia

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Fake Tears/Wish Jolteon (which is typically thought of as your standard "special sweeper" Jolt) can take Blissey 1 on 1 with ease.
Milotic is not a special sweeper unless you're using it wrong. But it and Blissey can both wall eachother until the end of time (unless Bliss has Toxic and Milo does not have Rest)
Magnezone can also blow up on Blissey.
Mismagius (seriously underrated) can Sub/CM for the win.
Togekiss might win 1 on 1 against Blissey, but Blissey will Thunder Wave it, and then its sweeping potential is ruined. Aura Sphere just doesn't do enough damage without STAB.
Azelf will also get Thunder Waved and ruined before it kills, unless it blows itself up or U-Turns to Boah or Heracross or the like.
Gengar will never be beating Blissey with Focus Blast unless it's specsed. Even then, odds are it'll miss once out of the two hits needed to kill.
Suicune can't 2HKO, even with 6 Calm Minds, unless it's Modest. The standard Bold Suicune loses if both are at full health, as it'll only be able to get 4-5 Calm Minds before all its HP is gone.
 

Bologo

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Yanmega -Stopped
Magnezone - Stopped
Yanmega can run Reversal to take care of Blissey. Magnezone has Metal Sound with just as much special attack as Heatran to take care of Blissey and can also Explode.
 
Magnezone - Stopped

Jolteon - Stopped
Actually Fake Tears Jolteon can take on Blissey, and Magnezone with a life orb, rash nature and around 92 attack evs can KO bliss with explosion. Blissey is hard pressed to stop non-specs (and specsluke) special attackers.
 
Out of the top fifty, I chose the pokemon that could be considered special sweepers.

Gengar - Focus Punch, Focus Blast, and Explosion all make short work of blissey.
Lucario - Aura sphere STAB will 2hko blissey with ease
Heatran - Metal Sound, and the ability to stall with rest/talk.
Infernape - cc is gg
Starmie - Stopped
Celebi - 101 subs and calm mind can outstall
Azelf - Explosion and Nasty Plot can kill off blissey
Jirachi - 101 subs and calm mind can outstall
Togekiss - NP and aura sphere
Yanmega -Stopped
Magnezone - Stopped
Suicune - 101 subs anf calm mind can outstall. Phazing if blissey calm minds as well.
Milotic - Kind of ttopped, but can toxicstall and recover HP.
Jolteon - Stopped
Porygonz - You already said
Kingdra - Waterfall OHKO's or 2HKO's
Roserade - Toxic Spikes and Sleep Powder can at least incapacitate blissey. Otherwise Stopped.

Out of the 17 pokemon picked, only 5 are stopped by blissey. As I said, most proficient special sweepers have a way around blissey.
I was quoting you in agreement, because a lot of people previously said Porygon-Z is washed up: too slow to sweep with NP and too weak to sweep with Agility. The game has to shift back to a slower stall before he'll get better again. You'll see, when people get tired of scarves and start countering all the the 500+ speed pokemon with solid walls, Porygon-Z is gonna own everyone again.
 
Yanmega can run Reversal to take care of Blissey. Magnezone has Metal Sound with just as much special attack as Heatran to take care of Blissey and can also Explode.
Forgot about metal sound. Yanmega gets reversal? O.O'

Actually Fake Tears Jolteon can take on Blissey, and Magnezone with a life orb, rash nature and around 92 attack evs can KO bliss with explosion. Blissey is hard pressed to stop non-specs (and specsluke) special attackers.
All true, except some specs'd special attackers are dealt with by blissey easily. Take specs roserade, or even specs mence.

I was quoting you in agreement, because a lot of people previously said Porygon-Z is washed up: too slow to sweep with NP and too weak to sweep with Agility. The game has to shift back to a slower stall before he'll get better again. You'll see, when people get tired of scarves and start countering all the the 500+ speed pokemon with solid walls, Porygon-Z is gonna own everyone again.
It's cool that you've noticed the phases; I've been trying to figure out a patter for a few months now
 
i will love it when it gets to wall phases my jask will get set ups on my 101 subbing jirachi ;) or metagross lol
porygon-z has a very very nice status chance on Tri-attack to boot that means something will happen if it ends up being walled.
 
Why is everyone saying Electravire sucks?
I use him in my team with ninjask and he is a total beast.
You can baton pass SDs and Speed to anything and make it good. I could pass to, say... Wigglytuff 6-0 you with it if I wanted to. It takes no skill whatsoever.

Basically you are saying Ninjask is good, not E-vire.


BTW, I'm surprised no one has noticed the whole Offensive -> Scarf -> Stall -> Offensive cycle yet. I most certainly have. That's why I'm doing so well on Wifi right now I guess; Scargar, Scarftran and Scarfchomp yield me so many free switch-ins.
 
You can baton pass SDs and Speed to anything and make it good. I could pass to, say... Wigglytuff 6-0 you with it if I wanted to. It takes no skill whatsoever.

Basically you are saying Ninjask is good, not E-vire.


BTW, I'm surprised no one has noticed the whole Offensive -> Scarf -> Stall -> Offensive cycle yet. I most certainly have. That's why I'm doing so well on Wifi right now I guess; Scargar, Scarftran and Scarfchomp yield me so many free switch-ins.
I noticed it end octobre >.>
And it's true. If you look at the moveset threads etc. you can see patterns.
 
epic post
Totally agree. Man, was I happy when nobody used that faggy, never dies to anything, impossible to stall out, Celebi. I believe this was largely Obi's doing with that equally aggravating (but amazing) stall team of his. Actually, Tentacruel is in the same boat too. It went from UU to OU for crying out loud.

Since D/P began though, I think Electivire AND Cresselia are the biggest losers, and for the same reason: Hippowdon. Actually, this can be expanded to bulky grounds (or anything) for Electivire and SS for Cresselia. Almost every battle I played had either the GyaraVire combo or Cress+Bliss for impenetrable stalling death. Man, those were the good ol' days.
 
The Pokémon I thought Won out:

Garchomp: With 130 Base Attack, 102 Speed and good offensive typing that hits over 95% of the metagame neutral, Garchomp(a.k.a the Land Shark) is a beast, and has reached a point where he is "uncounterable". With Swords Dance at his disposal, he can total teams that don't have a proper revenge killer, and with Choice Scarf and Outrage, Garchomp makes a dandy revenge killer.

Tyranitar: The biggest boost that T-tar got in this gen was that Sandstorm gives Rock-types a 50% boost in Special Defense, which has increased his survivability. In addition, he recived new physical STAB moves in Crunch and Stone Edge(both of which are better than Rock Slide)to aid in his CB assualt, as well as physical Pursuit. He is also a good team player, giving his fellow Rock-types a SpD boost, and giving Sand Veil users boosted evasion.

Gyarados: Gyara got some major boosts in the transition from ADV to D/P including new STAB in Waterfall, new secondary attacks in Ice Fang and Stone Edge, and his Taunt now lasts 3-5 turns. His perfect counter in ADV, Zapdos, is now a very bad thing to switch in on Gyara due to the huge slant towards Stone Edge, and a +1 Waterfall can 2KO Zappy on the switch.


The Pokémon I thought flopped:

Electivire: One of the most overrated Pokémon in the beginning, E-Vire has proved to be royally pathetic. While he has good attack, it is not enough to really hurt anything, and Meditate is not enough. He is also not fleet footed, as he needs to he struck with an Electric attack, and even with the speed boost, there are still scarfers that outspeed a +1 Max Speed Adamant Electivire, most noticably Garchomp and Gengar.

Rhyperior: He was overhyped in the past, but has been forgotten in the middle stages. Rhyperior(a.k.a Rhyinferior) may have Solid Rock and good physical stats going for him, but between his crap Special Defense, really crap Speed, and being weak to six types has really brought him down a few notches. He is, however, good in Trick Room conditions, and can be a sweeping force with Swords Dance.

Weezing: This smoke ball was so bloody overused in ADV, it wasn't even funny. Nowadays, he can get 2KO'd by stuff like Medicham and Salamence. And to make his life really sad, Taunt prevents him from using his status for 3-5 turns, and he is now someting that screams set-up fodder, as his attacks now hit for laughable damage.
 
Hello,

I'd argue that since Diamond has started we've seen gains for:

Garchomp: He's become so powerful that there are serious discussions with merit about making him Uber. I think if most folks had forseen how powerful he was at the start of Diamond he'd already BE Uber.

Gengar: Awesome Poke who's making a resurgence now. I think early in Diamond folks thought he was good but that he'd die to other Pokemon that were predicted to be huge. Those threats didn't materialize and Gengar is taking the show.

Bronzong (Surprised?): He hasn't been mentioned yet, but a dual purpose wall that's unaffected by Sandstorm, lays Stealth Rock, Resist Dragon and other things has a place in the metagame as we see it now.

And the biggest losers:

Rhyperior: On paper this guy looks just AWESOME. Why oh why does he fail?

Electrivire: See Rhyperior above.

Gyarados (Surprised?): Gyarados on paper at the start of D/P gained everything, but think about the current metagame.... with Stealth Rock running rampant Gyarados is forced into the lead spot or bust. Waiting for him there is the game's best starter... Gengar. Gengar can Thunderbolt Gyarados to heck. If Gyarados is your starter and Gengar isn't on the field, not a problem. Gengar can switch in on your Dragon Dance and STILL outrun you to Thunderbolt you to heck.

Put it together and Gyarados has lost a LOT with the way the metagame has advanced. He's no longer a threat to any of my teams as he currently stands.
 

Syberia

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Gyarados can be Jolly, you know. And Gyarados can come in on something late-game, force it to switch, DD, and sweep.
 

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