Dark Horses of The BW2 Metagame (DISCUSSION)

So maybe I'm just another whiney little player complaining about everyone using the same pokemon in OU, and I need to go down to RU or something with the rest of my kind (not implying this is the only reason people play RU, either, it is quite an enjoyable, and very difficult metagame) but, in a small and probably vain effort to increase variation in the OU metagame, I would like to discuss the pokemon from the depths of OU, or from other tiers, that can now really shine in this BW2 Metagame, whether it is because of new things they can do, because of changes in the metagame around them, or a combination of the two.

So without further ado, I'll start us off with the three most obvious form the very start of BW2, and one, less obvious.

tn_mamoswine.jpg

Mamoswine @ life orb
ability: thick fat
EV's:252HP/252Atk/4spe
Adamant nature
-ice shard
-icicle crash / icicle spear
-earthquake
-stone edge / superpower

A perfect counter to all of those pesky therians, as well as a sure stop to that HO team's salamence staring you down at +2atk +1 spe, mamoswine really just got it's egg moves back with thick fat, so not a ton of new stuff, but more importantly, the new metagame gave it a chance to shine, as a lot of major threats became fast, frail, and weak to ice. ice shard for the revenge kill, whichever icicle move you want, depending if you want to make sure you kill that celebi or if you want to break gliscor's subs, as well as EQ for obligatory stab moves, and then either stone edge or superpower for coverage. item can alternately be choice band to score a few more kills on things like haxorus and what not, but then it's easy for your opponent to switch in and try to use you as set up fodder.

Jolteon1.jpg

Jolteon @ life orb
ability: volt absorb
EV's: 252spatk/4spdef/252spe
Timid nature
-volt switch
-hidden power ice
-thunderbolt
-shadow ball / signal beam

Another pokemon that saw unprecedented amounts of usage just to counter the therians, that massive speed stat, as well as that much more usable spatk stat since the metagame had begun to shift away from bulky offense, it was easily capable of revenging the therians, as well as even healing on the switch into thundurus-t's mighty thunders, this pokemon thrived on the new metagame alone, the set is unchanged from BW1. HP ice kills thund-t and land-t, volt switch for volt turning, thunderbolt kills tornadus-t and really anything you want can go in the final moveslot, I've seen anything from thunder wave to substitute. Expert belt works well if you decide to run substitute, because jolteon should really only be dishing out super effective hits anyways, as it is by no means a wall-breaker...unless that wall is skarmory or jellicent... but anyways.

Amoonguss-500x500.jpg

Amoonguss @ black sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EV's: 252HP/28spatk/228spdef
Calm Nature
-Spore
-Giga Drain
-HP Ice
-Stun Spore / Clear Smog

Amoonguss got access to one of the games best abilities, regenerator, allowing it to recover 1/3 of its health when it switches out, and it just so happens that it's pretty good at walling many new threats, as well as some of the early countermeasures, like the above mentioned jolteon. Spore is obligatory, Giga Drain helps out with recovery, and is quite effective against many of the water types it should be switching in against. HP Ice to stop all those nasty flying types, including the therians, and then either clear smog to stop other mons from setting up on you after sleep clause activates, or stun spore to hit whatever is trying to switch in after you used spore.

Now for my personal favorite,
PokemonKidsBandaiToxicroakFigureOpen_1-500x500.jpg


Toxicroak @ Black Sludge
Ability: Dry skin
EV's: 244HP/252atk/12def
Adamant nature
-bulk up
-substitute
-drain punch
-sucker punch

Toxicroak is another mon that received nothing notable from BW2 but enjoys this new metagame. Toxicroak thrives in a rain heavy metagame filled with HO teams, as it can easily begin setting up on a hazard layer, or perhaps something locked into a water move or on the dozens of mons whose movesets "hit everything but toxicroak neutrally" Get a sub, and after a bulk up or 2, it should be easy to set another sub and either start sweeping or conitinue boosting. Bulk Up and Substitute work together to keep toxicroak on the field and safe. Drain punch hits steels hard, and can help with HP recovery (as if you need more) and with all of the HO teams about, many teams will fall to something as simple as a boosted sucker puncher, and it should be used against any starmies, tornadus, or latios who want to ruin your fun.

And now... Discuss, and bring in pokemon and sets of your own!

EDIT: For whatever reason, a mod changed the title of this thread to underdogs, from dark horses, and while I believe this title is not inaccurate, and they are very similar, I would like to put the phrase "dark horses" out there, because they don't share the exact same meaning, dark horses referring to anything making a bigger splash than expected, and not just underrated pokemon, for example, noone any longer doubts mamoswine's usefulness, but before BW2, it wasn't expected to be a significant part of the metagame, so while it isn't an underdog, it is a sort of black horse. Also, this helps differentiate it from the "Underrated movesets" thread.
 
i'm not gunna lie, without even reading the introductory paragraph, i thought this was an unfinished RMT. but anyway, i have used these pokemon extensively in bw2 so i'll give you some of my thoughts on them:

mamoswine: first off, i would not call mamoswine a "counter" to the therians. a counter is something that can come in on said pokemon, take very little damage from its attacks, and immediately pose a threat. mamoswine will get shattered by either hurricane from tornadus-t or focus blast from thunderus-t. landorus-i/t can also hurt it badly with earthquake. but anyway, moving on. i think its better to run max speed instead of max hp. first off, mamoswine doesn't benefit much from running 252 hp, it still gets 2HKO'd by the same things. i guess its a matter of preference if you want your mamo to sponge some resisted attacks, but ive found it to be extremely useful to run max speed with jolly nature (KOing adamant lucarios is always fun). i usually run jolly 252 atk/252 spe with lefties. it helps mamo to survive longer throughout the match, especially if they have a dragonite or mence or some other kind of dragon that could sweep you once mamo is gone. mamoswine still hits pretty hard off the bat even without LO, and with lefties his survivability increases and hes got a better chance to set up SR if said rocks are spun away.

jolteon: jolteon is a really good pokemon in this metagame, simply because he's one of the few that can outspeed and KO tornadus in the rain without a scarf. the one thing that irks me about jolt is that he doesn't last too long. LO + hazards really takes a toll on jolteon, and he becomes a huge liability against stall, seeing as it is a sitting duck against bliss/chansey and gets raped by ferrothorn. signal beam is cool, but should only be used if you REALLY wanna kill that celebi, or if your team has some problems against hydreigon or some other dark pokemon. otherwise, always use shadow ball. i've used a moveset of volt switch/hidden power ice/shadow ball/sleep talk before and it hasn't let me down. its a great switch in to breloom, seeing as how after you are put to sleep you can either a) switch out to an appropriate counter with volt switch b) hit it hard with HP ice or c) hit it for at least neutral damage with shadow ball. although the power from thunderbolt is missed, volt switch is more effective since it gives provides momentum and still hits the things it needs to such as jellicent and tornadus-t. a version with expert belt using baton pass/substitute was also really effective, i think i first saw stone use it. it makes great partners with dugtrio seeing as how spD heatran, a common switch-in to jolt, can be baton passed to and KO'd in an instant.

amoonguss: not much to say about amoonguss really, other than clear smog is an absolute must. latias lacking sub/psychic can't set up on you, keldeo cant set up on you, hell, it even stops some salamence and dragonite from getting cocky. once your opponent realizes that you don't have clear smog, they can send something in like DD lum dragonite and proceed to set up on you. other than that, i've gotta say amoonguss is an incredibly tough pokemon to KO, ive been using it for a while and its never dead weight. 100% spore is always welcome, for offensive/balanced/stall teams alike. amoonguss tanks hydro pumps and volt switches like its nobody's business, shrugs off the damage, switches out and its good as new. really, i dont understand how its still in NU (or wherever it is).

finally, toxicroak: i think toxicroak is too frail to be using bulk up. its kinda like breloom in the sense that bulk up turns them into deadly sweepers, but theyre so frail that they rarely get to set them up. being weak to psychic, and especially ground, make life very hard for croak. from personal experience, i've found SDcroak (accompanied by rain) to be an absolute monster. after just one swords dance, toxicroak becomes a very big threat. of course, taking down gliscor/hippowdon/will o wispers is essential, but once his counters are gone there's not much from stopping a croak sweep. plus, in the rain toxicroak actually has MORE health after LO recoil, one of the few pokemon that can say that. his mediocre speed is the only thing holding it back (seriously, at least 90 spe would've been great). croak's poison typing also make it an ideal partner for things that hate being poisoned by toxic spikes.

now, since we're talking about dark horses here i'd like to discuss keldeo. i have no clue how its 45th in the september usage statistics. its ridiculous. keldeo may not have a varied movepool, but it has everything it needs. i've recently been testing out a subCM keldeo and it works wonders. everybody really expects a specs/scarf or simple calm minder, and most people send in something to hit it with a toxic or a giga drain. this is where substitute takes advantage of that. this is how it goes: you switch keldeo in on something that it can force out (e.g tyranitar/chansey/gliscor/heatran) set up a sub or calm mind depending on what you think they'll bring in and take it from there. the best part about keldeo is that not even things like ferrothorn or chansey can wall him since secret sword hits their physical side. it really is a monster once it gets going. the set i've been using is:

647.gif
@ Leftovers
Timid (+Spe,-Atk)
6 HP/ 252 SpA/ 252 Spe

-Substitute
-Calm Mind
-Surf
-Secret Sword

now moving on from the above set, keldeo has other fantastic offensive options. in the rain, specs surf WILL either kill something or severely dent it. to give you an idea of how strong specs hydro pump in the rain is:

vs 252 HP/ 0 SpD Latias: 535 Atk vs 296 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 174 - 206 (47.80% - 56.59%) 86.32% chance to 2HKO.

vs 252 HP/ 0 SpD Tentacruel: 535 Atk vs 276 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 186 - 220 (51.10% - 60.44%) 100% chance to 2HKO

vs 252 HP/ 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 535 Atk vs 310 Def & 352 HP (120 Base Power): 165 - 195 (46.88% - 55.40%) 70.94% chance to 2HKO (w/ rocky helmet)

those 3 pokemon listed above are supposedly great switch ins for specs keldeo (except maybe ferrothorn, if he's expecting a secret sword), but in the rain, all that changes.

now, a good partner for keldeo is his one of his musketeer brothers, terrakion. terrakion has 129 attack, keldeo 129 special attack, its a no-brainer that they work well together to smash things. choice band terrakion can muscle through the physical walls that keldeo can't and vice versa. i strongly recommend anyone to try out keldeo, its really an underdog in this metagame.

ps. watching your pony sweep the opponent's team is a beautiful thing.
 
Mamoswine is in no way an underdog being in the top 20 of OU last month.

Amoonguss is boss I have used it myself a ton, it is pretty much the best answer ever to Breloom, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. I love it to death in OU.

I have to give the underdog to Reunicles, while calm mind might not be what it once was because stall is drying up, I can easily see the trick room set being a monstrous late game sweeper and wall breaker in this meta. Let it get one trick room, and if it can connect focus blast, a good portion of an offensive team is going bye-bye.
 
SpDef Zapdos is another guy on the way up. Arguably the best counter to Tornadus-T available, and it also helps against Keldeo (outside of Rain), Breloom, Genesect, Scizor, and so on.

Also, I've always found Jellicent pretty amazing, and it's strong in this meta as one of the best Genesect checks which don't care about Dugtrio. The basic Taunt + WoW set absolutely ruins a lot of teams, defensive or offensive.
 
agh my bad switching the use of counter and check. I have to completely disagree woth ypu on toxicroak's ability to use bulk up, it can easily sub on the switch of any of the things i mentioned and start boosting from there. Also I can't wait for lightning rod zapdos.
 
Mamoswine isn't an underdog, if there was an overdog, he'd be it. He is incredibly powerful and with his dual stabs he threatens a lot of the current metagame. Unless I am running full stall he is on everyone of my teams, because he is that useful.

mamoswine: first off, i would not call mamoswine a "counter" to the therians. a counter is something that can come in on said pokemon, take very little damage from its attacks, and immediately pose a threat. mamoswine will get shattered by either hurricane from tornadus-t or focus blast from thunderus-t. landorus-i/t can also hurt it badly with earthquake. but anyway, moving on. i think its better to run max speed instead of max hp.

I have to disagree to a certain extent. It is entirly true that Mamo cannot come in on either of those attacks, however Mamo can safely come in on a predicted Electric attack from Thundurus, or HP-Ice. The Mamo which I run is 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP, with LO and an Adamant nature. This allows me to OHKO both Thundurus and Tornadus after rocks, with Ice Shard, and if they have any prior damage, sucks to be them. This set also OHKOs the majority of Landorus-Ts with Icicle Crash, even after the Indimidate drop. I know I've OHKO'd a few of the bulky ones as well. I'm in a hurry now so I can't post calcs, I will when I get time.

Summing up; Mamoswine is not an underdog, he is incredibly useful for checking some of the metagames top threats.
 
Mamoswine isn't an underdog, if there was an overdog, he'd be it. He is incredibly powerful and with his dual stabs he threatens a lot of the current metagame. Unless I am running full stall he is on everyone of my teams, because he is that useful.

Mamo is far too overused to be considered an underdog, in respect to it being a therian form counter its very useful, especially with u turn support to bring it in safely, there is no way these pokemon would stay in against it, the expect ion being a full health tornadus. Even then scarf mamo beats it. And a lot of the rampant dragons a steels bar skam, ferro, and forretress.

IMO Jolteon is a good mon but still predictable and simple enough to deal without letting it destroy you, more of a danger on rain, but even then its outclassed by rotom-w and thundus-t as both a sweeper and volt switcher.

I agree with Amoongus being an underdog but by now those playing OU know pretty much what its going to do and work around it. Hence why its usage was low.

Similar to mamoswine i don't agree with toxicroak being an underdog, he's just seen less usage due to people being obsessed with hurricane mons and and rain teams aren't really allowing a room for it. Still a great physical choice on a rain team.

I'm more inclined to call Hydriegon an underdog due to people neglecting to use it over things such as the lati's and other special sweepers. The mixed life orb set with roost or sub 3 attacks can work wonders due to its amazing coverage.

Hydreigon.gif


Hydreigon (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 100 Atk / 216 SAtk / 192 Spd
Mild Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Superpower
- Roost

I find that to be most effective set, always nice to OHKO Tyranitar and do a large chunk to Blissey's that don't expect the Superpower.
 
Amoonguss is boss I have used it myself a ton, it is pretty much the best answer ever to Breloom

It would be if it was immune to Spore.

IMO Jolteon is a good mon but still predictable and simple enough to deal without letting it destroy you, more of a danger on rain, but even then its outclassed by rotom-w and thundus-t as both a sweeper and volt switcher.

Not only is it outclassed, but its horrible movepool leaves it to be walled by many things (Ferrothorn, Blobs, Gastrodon without Hp Grass, Gliscor without Hp Ice, etc). The only set that really should be concidered on an Ou team is the Baton Pass set, and thats still iffy at best.\

134.png

@Leftovers
Hydration
252Hp 252SpD 4Def
~Scald
~Acid Armor/Work Up
~Rest
~Toxic

This walls most Pokemon in Ou. Max SpD lets you survive most super effective hits on that side, while Scalds burn chance and Acid Armor patch up your physical defence. Toxic stalls special walls and water resists.

252SpAtk Rotom (Neutral) Volt Switch vs 252HP/252SpDef Vaporeon (+SpDef): 32% - 37% (150 - 176 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO
252SpAtk Rotom (Neutral) Thunder vs 252HP/252SpDef Vaporeon (+SpDef): 54% - 64% (254 - 300 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO
252SpAtk Celebi (Neutral) Giga Drain vs 252HP/252SpDef Vaporeon (+SpDef): 32% - 39% (152 - 182 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO
252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/0Def +2 Vaporeon (+Def): 43% - 51% (202 - 238 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 4% chance to 2HKO
252SpAtk Choice Specs Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 252HP/252SpDef Vaporeon (+SpDef): 54% - 64% (255 - 301 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO
252SpAtk Choice Specs Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Hurricane vs Vaporeon (+SpDef): 42% - 49% (195 - 229 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah its pretty hard to kill this thing, especially when its immune to status.
 
I would like to apologize for all the confusion regarding mamoswine. To avoid this, I have changed the title back to what it was when i originally made this thread, from what the mod changed it to. I included mamoswine because of how he shot straight to the upper areas of usage charts from the bottom of OU, being such a successful dark horse, that he is now a standard and common pokemon, having made a name for himself over a few months.
 
the reason the mods changed your thread title was because the Dark Horse Project is open right now (refer to my signature) and calling your own thread something similar is bound to create confusion >_>
 
There. I hope that will help.

P.S. I read your project over earlier in the day, and I love it, I've been working on constructing a team for it, I may make my post in it later tonight or tommorow.
 
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