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Darude
- Thread starter Nettlekid
- Start date
Feedback time: Adamant Excadrill certainly does the job. Since it's relatively frail, I often don't get a chance to boost. Adamant Life Orb deals heavy damage even when I don't have a boost behind it, and it absolutely devastates when I do. I'm good with Adamant. Air Balloon Lucario is amazing. I honestly didn't get the hype behind Air Balloon, since one hit and it's gone. But with something like Lucario, it's brilliant. So many Pokemon run pretty much just an Edgequake combo (or something similar) to deal damage. Lucario laughs at Rock attacks, and with Balloon it can switch in on Ground too. Then they usually use a weak Rock move or just switch away in order to make Lucario vulnerable, at which point a speedy +2 sweep, backed up by that Vacuum Wave, decimates. And both of those two have good synergy.
Ferrothorn and Jellicent work well together, obviously, and they both do a good job. Despite comments that Leftovers is better on Ferrothorn, I really prefer Rocky Helmet. It's so great when facing something like Conkeldurr against Tyranitar. They Drain Punch, but I switch to Jellicent. I immediately switch over to Ferrothorn to take a resisted, unboosted Payback, and deal 25% damage with the Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet. Then I may switch right back to Jellicent, since they don't expect three switches in a row, stalling out for Sandstorm. Protect works too. Even if they predict, Payback is only unSTABed 50 BP super-effective, which Jellicent can deal with. Mindgames ensue until I can switch to something stronger to finish it off. It works quite well.
I haven't really gotten a chance to use Gardevoir too much yet, so I still don't know just how well she fares. If people have better opinions on that, let me know. The one member who's kind of the weak link is, surprisingly, Tyranitar. He can't take substantial hits, even neutral ones hitting his boosted Special Defense usually 2HKO, 3HKO at best. He doesn't hit hard enough. I more often find myself choosing between setting up Stealth Rock and being seriously injured by the opponent, or taking a hit and KOing (or getting close to KOing if they're at full health) them. Neither are really excellent. Anyone want to suggest a better Tyranitar, or if Hippowdon would be better? I could make Tyranitar really attacking, or maybe use a Boah style, and give Ferrothorn Stealth Rock instead of Spikes. Opinions?
Ferrothorn and Jellicent work well together, obviously, and they both do a good job. Despite comments that Leftovers is better on Ferrothorn, I really prefer Rocky Helmet. It's so great when facing something like Conkeldurr against Tyranitar. They Drain Punch, but I switch to Jellicent. I immediately switch over to Ferrothorn to take a resisted, unboosted Payback, and deal 25% damage with the Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet. Then I may switch right back to Jellicent, since they don't expect three switches in a row, stalling out for Sandstorm. Protect works too. Even if they predict, Payback is only unSTABed 50 BP super-effective, which Jellicent can deal with. Mindgames ensue until I can switch to something stronger to finish it off. It works quite well.
I haven't really gotten a chance to use Gardevoir too much yet, so I still don't know just how well she fares. If people have better opinions on that, let me know. The one member who's kind of the weak link is, surprisingly, Tyranitar. He can't take substantial hits, even neutral ones hitting his boosted Special Defense usually 2HKO, 3HKO at best. He doesn't hit hard enough. I more often find myself choosing between setting up Stealth Rock and being seriously injured by the opponent, or taking a hit and KOing (or getting close to KOing if they're at full health) them. Neither are really excellent. Anyone want to suggest a better Tyranitar, or if Hippowdon would be better? I could make Tyranitar really attacking, or maybe use a Boah style, and give Ferrothorn Stealth Rock instead of Spikes. Opinions?
Sorry to double post, but I want to bump this and also ask for more advice. Gardevoir is working quite well, though I realize that since I have an Excadrill counter in Lucario, Gardevoir doesn't need to run Choice Scarf. She can outspeed the other notable weather sweepers naturally. Should I switch her item? Also in that vein, I wonder if maybe Reuniclus would be better instead of Gardevoir. Stronger defenses, good Psychic type to take Fighting attacks and can set up on otherwise horrible threats like Conkeldurr. It's also unaffected by Sandstorm, which is good. Opinions on that?
Also, back to Tyrnaitar's apparent frailty, I was wondering if Focus Sash might be a decent item. It turns Tyranitar into sort of a suicide lead, ensuring that Stealth Rock gets on the field before retreating, abusing Sandstorm with the rest of my team, and if necessary bringing it in at least one more time to restart the storm. Would that be any good?
Also, back to Tyrnaitar's apparent frailty, I was wondering if Focus Sash might be a decent item. It turns Tyranitar into sort of a suicide lead, ensuring that Stealth Rock gets on the field before retreating, abusing Sandstorm with the rest of my team, and if necessary bringing it in at least one more time to restart the storm. Would that be any good?
You have a lot of fire and fighting weaknesses.
Try replace Lucario with Infernape. It covers a the massive fire weakness a bit. It's pretty much a better lucario
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Flamethrower/ fire blast
Move 4: Vacuum Wave
Item: Air Balloon
Ability: Blaze
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP, 252 Sp.Atk, 252 Spd
Try replace Lucario with Infernape. It covers a the massive fire weakness a bit. It's pretty much a better lucario
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Flamethrower/ fire blast
Move 4: Vacuum Wave
Item: Air Balloon
Ability: Blaze
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP, 252 Sp.Atk, 252 Spd
I thought it was commonplace to
Huh, weird.
Bumping with updates. Reconfigured Tyranitar to be fully specially defensive, replaced Jellicent with Gastrodon, tweaked Ferrothorn to be more physically defensive. I'd still like opinions about how to best use Gliscor, and now that Jellicent is out I'd like suggestions for another anti-spinner or at least another Fighting resist/immunity. Lucario is starting to seem like the weak link, since it's another frail set-up sweeper too much like Excadrill, and not quite fast enough to do its job well. Without it Gastrodon becomes my only Special attacker, so it would probably do to have another special attacker in its place. Maybe Magnezone, ever-useful, to trap Steels like Skarmory or Bronzong who would wall Excadrill. Or something totally different to counter whatever problems the team still has. Galvantula, maybe? I like Galvantula. Could Scizor work, maybe? Another strong physical attacker to back up Excadrill, adds another 4x Fire weakness alongside Ferrothorn's which Tyranitar and Gastrodon can take advantage of, and it's decently bulky. Just a reminder, I have Dream World Slowbro, Tangrowth, Dragonite and Ninetales to work with as well. The last one is laughable for this team obviously, and Slowbro would replace Gliscor if anything, but suggestions appreciated.
Excadrill must be jolly to outrun most jolly scared pokes.. let his speed get down to around 200 and he's cake to beat... I have ran into a one on one battle vs. An excadrill with my scared jolly darminatin... I was sure I was going to lose then I somehow went first for an easy ohko. Also you need a ghost to stop your massive fighting weakness... mienshau's hi jump kick o-2hko everything but gliscor..
As I have gone over several times, I really don't see the need for Jolly Excadrill. Adamant Excadrill outspeeds everything slower than SCARFED DUGTRIO. It still outspeeds things like Scarfed Starmie, which no one would ever use anyway because things like Starmie or Jolteon rely on their high speed as it is, and wouldn't boost it further. You might as well slap a Choice Scarf on Deoxys-S if you're taking that route. Anything faster than 550 Speed (which is what Adamant Excadrill gets) will be using speed boosting moves like Agility and Rock Polish, like Metagross or Terakion or something, which they can fairly easily get +4 on so then even Jolly doesn't outrun it. On the other hand, Life Orb Adamant hits incredibly hard, and with a +2 boost it's godlike. I can feel the loss of power with Jolly. Adamant stays.
As far as the Fighting weaknesses go, I do need a Ghost type. But Chandelure is too slow and doesn't mesh well, Golurk is too weak, and Jellicent can't take the strong attacks I need it to. I could go with something like Gengar I guess, coming in on immunities to do damage with a Sub+Disable set or Sub+Pain Split, the latter even taking advantage of Sandstorm to whittle its own HP and make Pain Split a little stronger. Eviolite Dusclops is also another good wall, but I do worry about its poor HP. Those are pretty much the only Ghosts that are remotely viable to me. But one flaw with your argument, although I do highly fear moves like Drain Punch and Close Combat, Hi Jump Kick is one of the least of my concerns. One of the major targets of that is going to be Ferrothorn. With Mienshao, the best-case scenario (which has actually happened a few times) is I can switch in on the Fake Out and dish out 25% damage, plus 6.25% from Sandstorm and then Protect on the Hi Jump Kick, dealing 50% damage and another 6.25%, giving it 87.5% to begin with. Two layers of Spikes or one layer and Stealth Rock finish it then and there. So it's not as much of a problem as you might think. It is a little harder against things like Scrafty who also carry Hi Jump Kick, but replace Fake Out in my scenario with Crunch and you get much the same result.
But the comment about the necessary Ghost type is true. The two most appealing ones seem to be Gengar and Dusclops, when I think about it. Dusclops seems to be the more attractive one for this stall-style team, though the Will-o-Wisp it uses may clash with the Toxic users on my team. Gengar can't take a hit, but with Disable it manages to shut down opponents that trouble the rest of my team like Conkeldurr or the aforementioned Scrafty (Disabling their Dark attack and leaving them only to set up for no purpose or switch out.) Gengar could probably even beat Excadrill, if it runs X-Scissor as opposed to Shadow Claw (which most do). It breaks the Sub with Rock Slide, and all it has left is 4x resisted X-Scissor. Which sounds like the best option? And I'm assuming this would replace Lucario, since that's the least effective and least team-assisting member at the moment.
As far as the Fighting weaknesses go, I do need a Ghost type. But Chandelure is too slow and doesn't mesh well, Golurk is too weak, and Jellicent can't take the strong attacks I need it to. I could go with something like Gengar I guess, coming in on immunities to do damage with a Sub+Disable set or Sub+Pain Split, the latter even taking advantage of Sandstorm to whittle its own HP and make Pain Split a little stronger. Eviolite Dusclops is also another good wall, but I do worry about its poor HP. Those are pretty much the only Ghosts that are remotely viable to me. But one flaw with your argument, although I do highly fear moves like Drain Punch and Close Combat, Hi Jump Kick is one of the least of my concerns. One of the major targets of that is going to be Ferrothorn. With Mienshao, the best-case scenario (which has actually happened a few times) is I can switch in on the Fake Out and dish out 25% damage, plus 6.25% from Sandstorm and then Protect on the Hi Jump Kick, dealing 50% damage and another 6.25%, giving it 87.5% to begin with. Two layers of Spikes or one layer and Stealth Rock finish it then and there. So it's not as much of a problem as you might think. It is a little harder against things like Scrafty who also carry Hi Jump Kick, but replace Fake Out in my scenario with Crunch and you get much the same result.
But the comment about the necessary Ghost type is true. The two most appealing ones seem to be Gengar and Dusclops, when I think about it. Dusclops seems to be the more attractive one for this stall-style team, though the Will-o-Wisp it uses may clash with the Toxic users on my team. Gengar can't take a hit, but with Disable it manages to shut down opponents that trouble the rest of my team like Conkeldurr or the aforementioned Scrafty (Disabling their Dark attack and leaving them only to set up for no purpose or switch out.) Gengar could probably even beat Excadrill, if it runs X-Scissor as opposed to Shadow Claw (which most do). It breaks the Sub with Rock Slide, and all it has left is 4x resisted X-Scissor. Which sounds like the best option? And I'm assuming this would replace Lucario, since that's the least effective and least team-assisting member at the moment.
I use ferrothorn and gengar for a decent anti-fighting core occasionally. If Scrafty carries a fighting type move you can switch to gengar... or you can cause barbs damage by predicting the crunch on gengar. Any ghost performs well but gengars speed and scary sp.atk stat is what I like.. Good luck!
Also, I did not read your EV spread on Excadrill. I Assume it has 252 speed, it will outrun a lot of pokes but at the cost of some bulk... If you can predict the necessary priority attacks this is an excellent excadrill set.
Also, I did not read your EV spread on Excadrill. I Assume it has 252 speed, it will outrun a lot of pokes but at the cost of some bulk... If you can predict the necessary priority attacks this is an excellent excadrill set.
Okay, updates. I replaced Lucario with Dusclops, but that's all that's new. Lucario really wasn't pulling its weight with a middling speed and conflicting opportunities with Excadrill. So far Dusclops seems good, but I'll see how it goes.
And yeah, 252 Speed on Excadrill. There's no point trying to make it bulky, since anything that's going to hit it without dying first is stuff like Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, which it can't take anyway.
I'm not entirely sure about Gastrodon right now. It's okay, but it seems like it could be worn down too easily by even strong special moves. Would Vaporeon be an okay replacement, helping by passing Wish and Heal Bell through the team to revitalize wall members like Ferrothorn and Tyranitar? Or should I leave Gastrodon as it is?
EDIT: Not liking Dusclops so much. Sure it can resist a 2HKO from a lot, but it's a one trick wonder. It gets whittled down, gets the chance to poison maybe, Pain Splits once, but then the opponent's too low on HP to Pain Split again, and I get KOed. It doesn't do enough for the team, or to stall. I tried a bit with Gengar, but between Sandstorm and Substitute it ends up beating itself. It barely gets the chance to attack, and opponents are smart enough about Disable so that they alternate attacks, and even resisted STAB attacks can easily break the sub. So I've still kind of without a Ghost here. It seems important to me that they be immune to Sandstorm, or are of the type to just stay out until they die. It can't keep switching in and wasting turns, which is what all my other Pokemon like to do with Protect to whittle away the foe.
And yeah, 252 Speed on Excadrill. There's no point trying to make it bulky, since anything that's going to hit it without dying first is stuff like Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, which it can't take anyway.
I'm not entirely sure about Gastrodon right now. It's okay, but it seems like it could be worn down too easily by even strong special moves. Would Vaporeon be an okay replacement, helping by passing Wish and Heal Bell through the team to revitalize wall members like Ferrothorn and Tyranitar? Or should I leave Gastrodon as it is?
EDIT: Not liking Dusclops so much. Sure it can resist a 2HKO from a lot, but it's a one trick wonder. It gets whittled down, gets the chance to poison maybe, Pain Splits once, but then the opponent's too low on HP to Pain Split again, and I get KOed. It doesn't do enough for the team, or to stall. I tried a bit with Gengar, but between Sandstorm and Substitute it ends up beating itself. It barely gets the chance to attack, and opponents are smart enough about Disable so that they alternate attacks, and even resisted STAB attacks can easily break the sub. So I've still kind of without a Ghost here. It seems important to me that they be immune to Sandstorm, or are of the type to just stay out until they die. It can't keep switching in and wasting turns, which is what all my other Pokemon like to do with Protect to whittle away the foe.
Well I like the Vaporeon idea... he is rather bulky and his surf is rather powerful with his mediocre sp.atk. He can switch into things fairly well but at the cost of another weakness and sand immune compared to gastrodon. He does have access to wish which makes it pretty unique in that sense... Heal bell would definately help a paralyzed/burned ferrothorn. Maybe try a vaporeon to see how you like it.
Alright, a few updates. I made the minor change from Ice Fang to Substitute on Gliscor, which turns it from classic Defensive type to the Stallrein-esque staller. To maximise its efficiency with this, I added a somewhat surprisingly modelled Scolipede, to serve the dual purpose of Toxic Spikes and Baton Passing an Iron Defense boost around, which everyone on my mainly defensive team appreciates. I chose Iron Defense because Agility was unnecessary, as either I'm already outrunning everything (Excadrill) or I never will (Jellicent, Gliscor, etc) and Swords Dance would force me then to Baton Pass to Excadrill which might be disadvantageous, plus Scolipede would be KOed too easily. With Iron Defense I can get bulky and either pass it on, or use it to set up layers of Toxic Spikes. However, if everyone thinks that Scolipede is just too bad, and that a better Toxic Spiker like Roserade or Omastar would be worth losing the Iron Defense Baton Pass, then I'll keep that suggestion in mind. Looking at this, I see I get walled pretty bad by Poison Heal Gliscor. Roserade with Hidden Power Ice, Omastar with Ice Beam, or even Cloyster might make good counters, right?