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Defining the NU Tier
- Thread starter Age of Kings
- Start date
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In my modest opinion we will be able to create a balanced NU environment only by playing NU, as playing UU will only show what is overpowered in UU and what isn't UU material at all (which has nothing to do with if it is actually usable in NU). The question is if fits in a certain environment, not if it is too weak to be placed in a higher tier.
I believe that, even so, creating a tier between NU and UU is pointless. Those that are too powerful to be in NU but too weak to be in UU will just see their usage reduced, that's all.
I believe that, even so, creating a tier between NU and UU is pointless. Those that are too powerful to be in NU but too weak to be in UU will just see their usage reduced, that's all.
Clamperl is even more viable in UU then in OU. In UU it has the same potential setup as in OU, replacing Bronzong for Claydol and the sun/moon things.
Except in UU, the walls are much less defensive...
What in UU can switch into Surf, Ice Beam, and HP Grass?
Clamperl sometimes runs HP Electric which takes down Mantine.
Toxicroak would scare it off, but how many Ice Beams can it take? Sucker Punch won't OHKO Clamperl.
Toxicroak would scare it off, but how many Ice Beams can it take? Sucker Punch won't OHKO Clamperl.
Toxicraoak can run a special version, be healed by surf, and is healed by rain if there is any.
Toxicroak with max HP will be hit for 60-70% from Ice Beam.
2HKO even with the 18% heal rate from Rain and Leftovers. It can counter him with prediction (And Sucker Punch), but you could say that about a lot of things.
2HKO even with the 18% heal rate from Rain and Leftovers. It can counter him with prediction (And Sucker Punch), but you could say that about a lot of things.
Toxicraok is still a viable counter, it can switch into two of those moves, set up a nasty plot or swords dance, and OHKO.
Clamperl is outsped by pretty much anything.
Clamperl is outsped by pretty much anything.
Trick Room.
TR Clamperl teams are incredibly viable. My first real UU match was vs Cynthia. I used my TR team and lost 1-0 because she stalled out the last turn of Trick Room with Protect.
I suck at UU vs UU, and the rediculous power of Clamperl nearly brought down one of the best UUers around.
TR Clamperl teams are incredibly viable. My first real UU match was vs Cynthia. I used my TR team and lost 1-0 because she stalled out the last turn of Trick Room with Protect.
I suck at UU vs UU, and the rediculous power of Clamperl nearly brought down one of the best UUers around.
That takes a good ammount of setting up. A lot of sweepers (like Toxicroak and Ninetails) can get clamperls Special Attack without needing another poke to set them up. Not to mention nearly all special-attacking Toxicroak carry Vacuum wave, and priority attacks are rampant in UU.
And as you said TR time can be stalled easily.
And as you said TR time can be stalled easily.
Vaccum Wave can only 3HKO.
2HKO with Choice Specs.
I'm not saying Toxicroak isn't a good pokemon, it just doesn't counter Clamperl.
Also its VERY easy to just Trick Room then Explode with Claydol. Not just Claydol, but Solrock and Lunatone.
2HKO with Choice Specs.
I'm not saying Toxicroak isn't a good pokemon, it just doesn't counter Clamperl.
Also its VERY easy to just Trick Room then Explode with Claydol. Not just Claydol, but Solrock and Lunatone.
And then you only have 3 turn left of TR. I'd like to see what clamperl can do when theres no TR.
I would like to disagree with Butterfree being NU. It functions very well sashed with Smogon's Doublepowder set going Timid, and it functions well in BL & UU, and wreaks complete havoc to teams in NU, if not just to protect the NU tier, I think it should be placed at least in UU, and skeptically BL, although I highly doubt it will ever come to that. Albeit it takes some skill and prediction to work well, in the hands of an at least semi-expirienced player it can lay the hurt on a team, and in a very experienced players hands it often causes fatal dents in your opponents team. While Butterfree lacks real offense, and it is arguably very slow, after it has put something to sleep, it can use Tailwind on the switch out, it can go on to safely switch out, or Stun the switch in, or, if feeling brave enough, the person can use Bug Buzz.
Also Modest Nasty Plotted' Life Orb vacuum wave does 84.31-98.73
enough for fake out to kill clamperl if toxicroak dies.
enough for fake out to kill clamperl if toxicroak dies.
Clamperl is also very slow if I remember correctly, let me check mine, I have one with the EV's from Smogon's Deep Sea Tooth set.
Okay, so a Modest Max Speed and Special attack Clamperl is only 163, I don't think it is going to have the chance to trick room, let alone to lay the hurt on Toxicroak.
Okay, so a Modest Max Speed and Special attack Clamperl is only 163, I don't think it is going to have the chance to trick room, let alone to lay the hurt on Toxicroak.
Kill three pokemon.
Kagster123 said:
Great so he can kill Clamperl after some setup. That doesn't make him a counter.
Since Clamperl usually comes in after Claydol / Solrock / Lunatone Explodes there is no way Toxicroak will have that chance at Nasty Plotting.
Lesha said:
I don't know where you got those numbers, or why you gave it Speed EVs. DeepSeaTooth Clamperl tops at 500+ special attack. Always give it HP EVs too.
I'm nto sure If I did give it speed EV's, I just assumed I did. Anyways, I still think that Clamperl could easily be OHKO'd due to it's extremely low speed. It can't always rely on Trick Room.
If we are basing NU on usage in UU (like I suspect and hope we will), we must have a tier between NU and UU. Usage rarely creates balanced tiers. Just like we need a tier between OU and UU (BL) because UU is based only on usage in OU, we need a ban tier between NU and UU (as yet unnamed) because NU is based solely on usage in UU.
Usage statistics in OU are irrelevant for determining the "UU" Pokemon of UU to find what is potentially in NU. I am aware we don't have the UU usage statistics yet, but that just means we cannot come to a real decision yet, which is why I was dubious about the usefulness of this thread in the UU / BL discussion thread.
UU works like this:
Consider all the non-uber Pokemon. Pokemon that are used too much are banned from UU automatically (this is the only real purpose of OU). We then have a list of potentially legal Pokemon. However, some of these Pokemon create imbalance because there is not yet a check on power. These Pokemon are also banned from UU (this is the only real purpose of BL).
I don't see why we wouldn't just create NU by extension.
Consider all Pokemon currently UU. Pokemon that are used too much are banned from NU automatically (this is the only purpose of UU, as far as NU is concerned). However, some of these Pokemon can create imbalance because there has not yet been a check on power. These Pokemon are also banned from NU (this is why we need to create a new tier).
The only useful things I can see coming out of this thread would be deciding just how little use it has to receive in UU to be up for consideration in NU.
But please, please don't try and decide what ought to be banned in NU before even know what is really up for consideration, unless you want the UU / BL mess part 2.
It can actually rely on Trick Room fairly reliably. As long as you build your team around it...
What happens when you get Taunted? Even if your opponent doesn't manage to stop the first Trick Room, you can still pretty much stall out Trick Room, leaving time to taunt the next person.
Well you could say Skarmory is pretty worthless is Taunted.
Stalling out of TR is fairly hard to do, since each miss-prediction could result in a KO.
Stalling out of TR is fairly hard to do, since each miss-prediction could result in a KO.
Yes I could say Skarmory is pretty worthless Taunted, and am by no means denying it, nor agreeing with that statement should it come back later when we are arguing that point.
Stalling out TR may be hard for you to do, but in all my time battling, I have never had a problem dealing with it.
Stalling out TR may be hard for you to do, but in all my time battling, I have never had a problem dealing with it.
Because you obviously predict right 100% of the time.
You have never fought against a Trick Room Clamperl UU team before have you? Don't lie. Answer honestly.
And we can assume the user of Clamperl doesn't predict correctly 100% of the time. Easily outstalled by anyone who knows what prediction is.
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