Other Defog and Rapid Spin: Advantages and Disadvantages

[Eievui-Nymphia]

In the viability ranking thread there has been discussion about what function Defoggers are in this metagame. Remembers that there's a "Defog" thread in the forums if you want to exclusively discuss this move.

First and all, let's see what those moves are:
Defog
24 PP Flying Status move, -- power -- accuracy
Lowers one adjacent target's evasion by 1 stage. Whether or not the target's evasion was affected, the effects of Reflect, Light Screen, Safeguard, Mist, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Sticky Web end for the user's and the target's sides. Pokemon protected by Magic Coat or the Ability Magic Bounce are unaffected and instead use this move themselves. Ignores a target's Substitute, although a Substitute will still block the evasion lowering.

Usable threats: Mandibuzz, Scizor, Crobat, Charizard (Mega X or Mega Y), Dragonite, Empoleon, Gliscor, Latias, Latios, Mew, Salamence, Skarmory, Togekiss, Zapdos, Flygon

Rapid Spin
64 PP Normal Physical 20 power 100% accuracy.
Deals damage to one adjacent target. If this move is successful and the user has not fainted, the effects of Leech Seed and partial-trapping moves end for the user, and all hazards are removed from the user's side of the field.

Usable threats: Starmie, Excadrill, (Mega) Blastoise, Donphan, Forretress, Tentacruel.

The conclusion are that there are better Defoggers than Rapid Spinners.

Advantages of Defog:
-Better distribution
-Removes screens
-Some of the threats had reliable recovery.
-They don't care if a Ghost type switch in (or nay other type, if that matters)
-No annoying Life Orb/Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet running the strategy.

Downside of defog:
-It removes your hazards and your screens.
-It can be Taunted
-It can be abused by pokemon with Defiant and Competitive; the main one is Bisharp.

Advantages of Rapid Spin
-It can't be Taunted.
-Bisharp can switch into one.
-Compatible with Assault Vest
-Don't remove your hazards.
-Don't remove your screens (neither the opponent)
-Removes leech Seed and partial trapping

Downsides of Rapid Spin
-It can be blocked by Ghost types.
-Worse distribution.
-Only Starmie has recovery outside Leftovers and Rest.
-It can be blocked by fainting the pokemon in the process (LO Starmie vs Ferrothorn; how funny)

Doscuss it.

E·dot Added Skarmory (I forgot to add) as a defogger and removed Avallug and Hitmontop as spinners.

 

[Ash Borer]

cool thread. Defog is most preferred it seems as the pokemon that have it are so incredibly good, and because of this the only hazard thats really relevant is stealth rocks. Resetting stealth rocks after defogging your own isnt much of an issue. Rapid spin is almost really hard to make work considering how good Aegislash is, even though Bisharp is incredibly threatening it can be checked, and it should be checked, so if you really need to defog you always will be able to, but rapid spin can be completely blocked.

The only reason I see to use rapid spin right now is the fact that Excadrill and Starmie are really quite good by themselves.

 

[Garchomp for president]

Just a quick thing, Defog cannot get hit by Sucker Punch while Rapid spin can. Another plus for Defog I guess.

 

[ColtCababa]

Charizard (both Megas), Dragonite, and Avalugg shouldn't seriously be considered for hazard removal, as they all struggle with switching into hazards themselves.

The only reason I see to use rapid spin right now is the fact that Excadrill and Starmie are really quite good by themselves.

Let's not disregard Mega Blastoise, whom, in my opinion, is one of the best spinners in the game courtesy of it's excellent mix of power, bulk, and capability to threaten many spinblockers with a Mega Launcher-boosted Dark Pulse.

 

[Duck Chris]

Personally I like rapid spin so much more right now, for a couple of reasons.
1) Taunt
Taunt is a useful move on so many things, including threats such as thundurus. Defog is such a crutch for me when I do use it, that mons like thundurus can usually shut down my defogger while posing a huge threat to my team. Predict wrong and you're gone.
2) Decline of spinblockers
I have definitely noticed a decrease in usage of ghosts specifically as spinblockers. Gengar, Aegislash etc are still useful, but stuff like jellicent and trevenant are less popular than they might have been in a similar situation had defog not existed. Knock off is such a powerful move, a lot of ghosts have problems switching into things this gen. Similarly, nearly every spinblocker can be beaten if you choose the right spinner. Excadrill takes care of Gengar and Aegislash switch ins, Mega-Blastoise takes care of nearly everything, Starmie takes care of everything else.
3) Momentum
Taking all hazards off of the field is nice if you really need it, and works well on something like birdspam. Spinning can be a better alternative if you're using heavy hazards on your own team, or facing something specifically hazard weak. The threat of a spin also lures in ghost types, which can be disposed of by the proper spinners. Regardless of whether or not you need to get the hazards off the field immediately, acting like you do can help you keep up offensive pressure on your opponent. My problem with defog is that many defog users give a lot of safe switch ins. Latios being the most obvious exception, most viable defog users right now are defensive, while most viable spinners are a little more offensive.

In short, rapid spin is better than it was because defog exists. Worth mentioning as well is that if you stack enough hazards on the opponents side, they will usually be forced to defog themselves should they carry it, clearing hazards on your side as well.

 

[Baharoth]

I dont realy see what u want to discuss here tbh. Both moves have their strengts and depending on what u need for ur team u choose one of them. Defog is better for teams that are severly hindered by hazards and/or dont have hazards on their own or at least dont realy mind it if they are removed because setting them again after u had to remove them always costs momentum.

Imo the presence of defog makes rapid spin even better, since there are so many defog users around most players dont bother having a spin blocker on their team. With only Aegisslash as a common ghost type u dont have much to worry about as a rapid spin user and every team needs a way to deal with the omnipresent Aegisslash anyway. If ur team can also work under hazards and one of the rapid spin users fits into it its imo better to use rapid spin most of the time, but i guess that depends on preference... i realy hate to remove my own hazards so i rather go for rapid spin.

 

[noobcubed]

FWIW Skarmory should be added to the list of notable Defog users, though I can see that could conflict with its role as a hazard layer. On the other hand Defog isn't compatible with Poison Heal on Gliscor and so isn't worth it.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

I don't know if you need to mention it separately, but Mega-Scizor makes an amazing defogger with bulk, reliable recovery, and power backed up by U-turn and Bullet Punch.

 

[Jaiho]

Charizard (both Megas), Dragonite, and Avalugg shouldn't seriously be considered for hazard removal, as they all struggle with switching into hazards themselves.

I completely agree, but also take it a step further. Salamence is an equally unviable defogger as the others above. Gliscor would be a good defogger, but the losing poison heal is really a shame. Hitmontop pretty much sucks as well, since it stands zero chance against common spinblockers. Forretress faces the same problem.

 

[Scorpiopt]

I have an issue with the notable defog users Charizard defoguing is a waste of a turn same with flygon, they are not the kind of mons that can do support work same with salamence

 

[effyouzion]

For teams that really want hazards gone, defog is the only way to go. It's too easy to block rapid spin with air balloon Aegislash.

For HO teams, rapid spin is better unless your team is both 1) not reliant on hazards of its own and 2) prepared to take care of a +2 bisharp (i.e.: you have a Terrakion or Keldeo on your team), in which case defog Latios is better than a spinner. Personally, I would rather make an HO team that's not super weak to hazards so you don't have to bother with finding room for either.

 

[zachmac]

I have an issue with the notable defog users Charizard defoguing is a waste of a turn same with flygon, they are not the kind of mons that can do support work same with salamence

True with 'Zard, especially considering how weak it is to rocks, but Flygon can not only Volturn, but it's resistant to all hazards. It could serve as a fogger in a VoltTurn team, possibly. It also lacks a real offensive niche.

 

[doughboy]

As a general rule of thumb: for teams with a bulky SR setter or one that can come repeatedly into battle, such as Landorus-T or Heatran, a Defog user is a better choice. For teams with a suicidal hazard lead, such as either Deoxys formes, a rapid spinner is a better choice. Really I find it as easy as that determining which one to use on a team.

The only reason I see to use rapid spin right now is the fact that Excadrill and Starmie are really quite good by themselves.

I wouldn't go as far to say that Rapid Spin doesn't have a use without including Excadrill or Starmie on your team. Paired up with a suicide lead, Rapid Spin is just one step in making sure that your hazards keep as much pressure on the opponent as possible (Taunt / defiant users/ suicide move users to prevent defog, Ghost types for opposing RS). Although I would say Rapid Spin has definitely lost its place on quite a few teams. Stall teams can reliably reapply there hazards in a long game, so Defog doesn't effect them as much. Not to mention, stall teams are no longer forced to use a pokemon that provides any real / extensive contribution to a defensive backbone for themselves (looking at you Forretress).

 

[alexwolf]

A concept that hasn't been mentioned yet is using both Rapid Spin + Defog in one team. This way, you get to use whichever strategy is more appropriate to the situation. Eg, if the opponent has Aegislash and you have Starmie, it's better to use Defog with Mandibuzz. Or, if the opponent has Bisharp it's better to use Rapid Spin with Excadrill instead of Defog with Latias. Or if the opponent has a scary Dragonite that you want to keep in check with your SR, Rapid Spin is the way to go.

This strategy works best on teams with SR weak Pokemon, as having enough anti-sr measures to adapt to a lot of situations is very useful. Also, this strategy works great because the best Defog and Rapid Spin users right now are excellent Pokemon on their own right, especially Lati@s and Excadrill, so it's not like you are wasting a whole team slot just to have another anti-SR measure, you are just wasting one moveslot at worst.

 

[reale]

Charizard (both Megas), Dragonite, and Avalugg shouldn't seriously be considered for hazard removal, as they all struggle with switching into hazards themselves.



Let's not disregard Mega Blastoise, whom, in my opinion, is one of the best spinners in the game courtesy of it's excellent mix of power, bulk, and capability to threaten many spinblockers with a Mega Launcher-boosted Dark Pulse.

unless it takes your mega-slot

 

[ColtCababa]

unless it takes your mega-slot

Obviously, if your Mega slot is occupied, it cannot fit on your team. That doesn't affect it's effectiveness in the slightest.

 

[sidakarya]

It's basically all a matter of how your team works and what your team needs. Generally, you use Defog instead of Rapid Spin when:

• You use Stealth Rock as the only hazard (if any);
  
• Your Stealth Rocker can come in repeatedly to pivot;
• Your team is not too dependent on hazards being present;
  
• Your team must keep Sneaky Pebbles off your side of the field to function (e.g. flyspam, some volt-turn)
  
• You really hate screens.

On the other hand, teams generally use Rapid Spin when:

• There are Spikes and/or Sticky Web in addition to SR;
  
• Your hazard-setter isn't meant to last too long, or sets up things other than SR;
• Hazards put significant work to your team (many HO teams, e.g. featuring Bisharp);
  
• You're using dual screens.
• Your team needs to keep problematic threats at bay (e.g. Charizard)

Of course, teams that would otherwise use defog might use Excadrill or Starmie, depending on how the team fits. Since Defog is better distributed than Rapid Spin, you would naturally have more options for defoggers than spinners, but in the end depends all on the synergy of your team.

Obviously, if your Mega slot is occupied, it cannot fit on your team. That doesn't affect it's effectiveness in the slightest.

It's rather high opportunity cost just to reliably spin away hazards, though.

 

[Duck Chris]

A concept that hasn't been mentioned yet is using both Rapid Spin + Defog in one team. This way, you get to use whichever strategy is more appropriate to the situation. Eg, if the opponent has Aegislash and you have Starmie, it's better to use Defog with Mandibuzz. Or, if the opponent has Bisharp it's better to use Rapid Spin with Excadrill instead of Defog with Latias. Or if the opponent has a scary Dragonite that you want to keep in check with your SR, Rapid Spin is the way to go.

This strategy works best on teams with SR weak Pokemon, as having enough anti-sr measures to adapt to a lot of situations is very useful. Also, this strategy works great because the best Defog and Rapid Spin users right now are excellent Pokemon on their own right, especially Lati@s and Excadrill, so it's not like you are wasting a whole team slot just to have another anti-SR measure, you are just wasting one moveslot at worst.

That's actually a really good point, especially considering that Excadrill and Mandibuzz are decent pokemon in their own rights. We can also examine how defog users or spinners match up against hazard setters. We know deoxys tends to beat mandibuzz because of its fast taunt, but what other hazard setters are more suited to combating defog than rapid spin? Lead terrakion comes to mind, but I don't know if that's viable anymore.

 

[Ash Borer]

A concept that hasn't been mentioned yet is using both Rapid Spin + Defog in one team. This way, you get to use whichever strategy is more appropriate to the situation. Eg, if the opponent has Aegislash and you have Starmie, it's better to use Defog with Mandibuzz. Or, if the opponent has Bisharp it's better to use Rapid Spin with Excadrill instead of Defog with Latias. Or if the opponent has a scary Dragonite that you want to keep in check with your SR, Rapid Spin is the way to go.

This strategy works best on teams with SR weak Pokemon, as having enough anti-sr measures to adapt to a lot of situations is very useful. Also, this strategy works great because the best Defog and Rapid Spin users right now are excellent Pokemon on their own right, especially Lati@s and Excadrill, so it's not like you are wasting a whole team slot just to have another anti-SR measure, you are just wasting one moveslot at worst.

I had a team that had both flavours of anti hazards, and to be honest all I found it helped me do was choose what hazard setters I could remove on. Excadrill was quite good at preventing Heatran from immediately resetting rocks, and Latias was good at doing so to Garchomp, and Landorus. It had the same effect as 2 defoggers or 2 spinners at once though, it wasnt as if I could use excadrill if already set up set rocks, should they have the wrong stealth rock user. I honestly recommend stacking 2 anti hazard users if your team has glaring SR weaks like a reliance on bandflame. I had bulky scizor as a defogger on a team (really good at stalling out physical hazard users like skarm and lando), as well I threw defog as filler on scarf latios simply because I had a victii and charizard on the team. It let me play a bit more flexibly againt hazard users.

 

[Deluks917]

One thing to seriously consider is that defog gives bisharp a free +2 atk. Alot of stronger players use bisharp. Not saying this a critical flaw but one needs to be aware of how you are going to handle +2 bisharp.

 

[sidakarya]

One thing to seriously consider is that defog gives bisharp a free +2 atk. Alot of stronger players use bisharp. Not saying this a critical flaw but one needs to be aware of how you are going to handle +2 bisharp.

This is one reason that I really like Zapdos as a defogger - you can just Heat Wave the oncoming Bisharp for heavy damage.

 

[neooo]

This is one reason that I really like Zapdos as a defogger - you can just Heat Wave the oncoming Bisharp for heavy damage.

Zapdos's speed is another huge plus. At 100 base speed, only those with heavy investment, or really speedy foes can deal a lethal blow before he gets Defog off.

 

[EpixAura]

The main factor in this argument is still what kind of team the move is being used for. For a team that needs hazards gone no matter what, Defog is the better option, pretty much guaranteeing to get rid of hazards. If the team lacks a glaring weakness to rocks, either is fine. Of course, if you don't a durable hazard setter, Rapid Spin wins out so you won't get rid of your own.

Important things to note:

• Spinblockers are much rarer than previous generations. Trevenant, Jellicent and even Gengar are fairly rare, leaving only Aegislash as a main threat. Not only that, Aegislash won't want to switch in to Excadrill (neither will Gengar, for that matter), although it can switch into Starmie all day.

• Most defoggers are weak to rocks themselves. Just by switching in in order to Defog, they lose 1/4 of their HP. Excadrill, on the other hand, takes roughly 3% for switching in, but can't switch in on many attacks. However, defoggers also have a lot of sustain to work with, whereas spinners often don't. (Starmie has Recover, but even then it's very easy to take down)

Personally, on a more balanced team I think Defog vs. Rapid Spin comes down to whatever type of Pokemon your team needs. Spinners tend to be offensive, and defoggers defensive. Honestly, both get rid of hazards very reliably. The key difference is that one is associated with defensive Pokes and one is associated with offensive Pokes. Everything else pretty much evens out except in extreme cases like the popular Talonflame/Staraptor combo.