Deoxys-D Discussion - It's not all about speed.

[IcyMan28]

Hello, everyone. Lately I’ve been looking into getting involved in the Uber metagame, and I came across an interesting pokemon, Deoxys-L. Despite its impressive defensive stats, it was only number 25 in the Uber tier as of December’s usage statistics. This got me thinking – what makes Deoxys-L Uber in the first place? Using the newly developed characteristics of Ubers in the Policy Review, I’ve decided to start a discussion to determine whether Deoxys-L deserves a suspect test or not. Be sure to vote in the poll above AFTER reading the thread. Let’s get started.

Base Stats:

-HP: 50
-Atk: 70
-Def: 160
-Sp.A: 70
-Sp.D: 160
-Speed: 90

Let’s start with the first Uber characteristic.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Offensive Stats: 70 / 70 / 90

-Noteworthy Offensive Movepool

-Pursuit
-Psychic
-Zen Headbutt
-Psycho Boost
-Night Shade
-Shadow Ball
-Superpower
-Focus Punch
-Brick Break
-Focus Blast
-Drain Punch
-Zap Cannon
-Thunder
-Thunderbolt
-Thunderpunch
-Ice Punch
-Ice Beam
-Avalanche
-Extremespeed
-Hidden Power
-Grass Knot
-Energy Ball
-Solarbeam
-Rock Slide
-Flash Cannon
-Fire Punch
-Signal Beam

- Thanks to its multiple forms, Deoxys-L has quite a large offensive movepool, though this form won’t be sweeping a large portion of the metagame anytime this generation. However, Deoxys-L's bulkiness allows it to try a bulky CM set, and it has the movepool to try it. The speed is decent. That said, let’s move on to what is arguably Deoxys-L’s highest Uber characteristic.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Defensive Stats: 50 / 160 / 160

-Noteworthy Defensive Movepool

-Cosmic Power
-Recover
-Amnesia
-Iron Defense
-Counter
-Mirror Coat
-Calm Mind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Substitute

- We can immediately note that Deoxys-L is capable of boosting either of its defensive stats, has access to Calm Mind, can take care of status with ResTalk, or it can block it with Substitute. It also has instant recovery in the form of, well, Recover. Looking at the defensive stats, the HP is a bit of a let down, but it does make a Counter / Mirror Coat strategy (combined with Recover) somewhat viable. However, to be defined as Uber under this characteristic, it must be able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame. I’ll use common variations of pokemon in December’s statistics, taken from the standard ladder usage tables. Let’s use some damage calculations to affirm it.

- Using X-Act’s Defense Applet, I have found that the ideal EV spread for an equally physically and specially defensive Deoxys-L is:

Deoxys-L@Item
Calm or Careful; 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Sp.Def

The EVs yield 304 HP, 396 Def, 418 Sp.Def, and the following calculations assume this. Stealth Rock is not included.

- (+2) Adamant 252 Atk LO Scizor using Bullet Punch: 788 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (60 Base Power): 168 - 198 (55.26% - 65.13%) SD Scizor 2HKOs with Bullet Punch.

- Timid 252 Sp.A Heatran using Fire Blast: 359 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 111 - 132 (36.51% - 43.42%) Timid ScarfTran just misses a possible 2HKO with Stealth Rock.

- (+1)Jolly 252 Atk LO Salamence using Outrage: 553 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 234 - 276 (76.97% - 90.79%) This is Jolly Salamence.

- Adamant 252 Atk Tyranitar using Stone Edge: 403 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 109 - 130 (35.86% - 42.76%) No CB, no LO. This is pre-Dragon Dance. Tyranitar Crunches / Pursuits it anyway.

- (+1) Adamant 252 Atk LO Gyarados using Waterfall: 574 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 162 - 192 (53.29% - 63.16%) LO Gyarados, guaranteed 2HKO.

- Timid 252 Sp.A LO Zapdos using Thunderbolt: 349 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 111 - 132 (36.51% - 43.42%) Pretty solid damage. Switching in is risky.

- Naïve 252 Sp.A LO Infernape using Flamethrower: 307 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 99 – 117 (32.57% - 38.49%) This is good – try Nasty Plot.

- (+2) Adamant 252 Atk LO Lucario using Close Combat: 700 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 148 - 175 (48.68% - 57.57%) Note that this includes CC.

- Adamant 252 Atk LO Metagross using Meteor Mash: 405 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 144 - 169 (47.37% - 55.59%) LO and Leftovers are used about the same. Adamant Agiligross wins this one.

- Naïve 252 Sp.A LO Azelf using Fire Blast: 349 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 94 - 111 (30.92% - 36.51%) Not too impressive…but then this is without NP. Too bad those have declined.

- Timid 252 Sp.A LO Starmie using Surf: 299 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 96 - 114 (31.58% - 37.50%) Not bad at all.

- (+1) Timid 252 Sp.A LO Suicune using Surf: 418 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 133 - 157 (43.75% - 51.64%) Deoxys-L is setup fodder for this.

- Timid 252 Sp.A Magnezone using Thunderbolt: 359 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 88 - 105 (28.95% - 34.54%) Scarfzone. Not too impressive.

- Modest 252 Sp.A Magnezone using Thunderbolt: 394 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 97 - 115 (31.91% - 37.83%) Same here. Remember though that Magnezone can run Specs just as effectively.

- Adamant 252 Atk Flygon using Outrage: 328 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 108 - 127 (35.53% - 41.78%) Choice Scarf Flygon.

- (+1) Adamant 252 Atk Flygon using Outrage: 492 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 160 - 190 (52.63% - 62.50%) Choice Band Flygon pretty much gets a 100% 2HKO.

- Adamant 252 Atk LO Mamoswine using Earthquake: 394 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 139 - 165 (45.72% - 54.28%) This is LO.

- (+1) Adamant 252 Atk Snorlax using Return: 525 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (105 Base Power): 150 - 177 (49.34% - 58.22%) Not too common, but still hurts.

- (+1) Jolly 252 Atk Weavile using Ice Punch: 508 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (75 Base Power): 103 - 123 (33.88% - 40.46%) Losing a third of your HP on an Ice Punch.

- (+1) Timid 252 Sp.A Jolteon using Thunderbolt: 478 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 118 - 139 (38.82% - 45.72%) SpecsJolt is even more threatening, since Deoxys-L can’t really do anything back.

- Modest 252 Atk Adaptability Porygon-Z using Tri Attack: 405 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 112 - 134 (36.84% - 44.08%) Scarf P-Z can KO this if you’ve taken about 20% damage (which is nothing).

- Modest 252 Sp.A Empoleon using Surf: 353 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 87 - 103 (28.62% - 33.88%) Pre-setup.

- (+1) Modest 252 Sp.A Torrential Empoleon using Surf: 529 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (142 Base Power): 193 - 228 (63.49% - 75.00%) Setup accomplished. Also, this is only Surf.

- The calculations are impressive, and I covered the majority of offensive threats in OU. I tried my best to have neutral moves, even when there are SE moves to consider. While some of the percentages dip into the 20s, most of them clear 30%, which is still a good chunk of health. The pokemon that Deoxys-L can truly take on appear to be weaker attackers, like Jirachi and Celebi, and other walls. Several of these walls, however, have offensive potential, so that can’t be overlooked either (read, SubCM Jirachi, CM LO Celebi, etc).
- Raw damage aside, we have other issues to consider for Deoxys-L. While a comparable pokemon, Cresselia, has handy immunities to Earthquake, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes, Deoxys-L can boast no such thing. Being a Psychic type, it won’t like trying to wall Jolteon only to find itself trapped and killed by pursuit users. The more prevalent user of fighting attacks, Lucario, still manages a 2HKO with an SD Close Combat. It’s other resistance, Psychic, is rarely seen in OU as an offensive type, so that hurts it too. It looks like low HP and a lack of immunities is truly the downfall of this form of Deoxys.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Noteworthy Stats: 160 Def / 160 Sp.Def / 90 Speed.

Noteworthy Support Movepool

-Knock Off
-Snatch
-Psycho Shift
-Taunt
-Spikes
-Toxic
-Sunny Day
-Rain Dance
-Reflect
-Light Screen
-Safeguard
-Torment
-Thunder Wave
-Stealth Rock
-Trick Room
-Trick

- Deoxys-L clearly has plenty of viable options when it comes to support. Key strategies could include Dual Screen, Weather Support, the rarely seen Trick Room support, Taunt, Knock Off, Paralysis Support, and Residual Damage support. With its defensive stats, it should be able to set these up constantly, especially since its base 90 speed lets it move rather quickly compared to other walls. This is probably the most difficult characteristic to prove / disprove, so if there is a collective uncertainty about the other two characteristics, a Suspect Test would be the only real way to determine if this characteristic is met.

- Thanks to the damage calculations, the lack of offensive prowess, and the fact that plenty of other pokemon can learn the same support moves as Deoxys-L, I think it should be tested.

- One more thing. Though I know it is inevitable, I would ask that this discussion focus solely on Deoxys-L’s candidacy as a suspect, not on what you think about Smogon’s general stance on banning / unbanning pokemon. Thanks, discuss.

 

[kd24]

i think he should be tested and given a chance although I really dont know if he would stay in ou if he would be tested. One could compare him to CaP's Fidgit, the ultimate support pokemon. Both have their weaknesses and strengths but both are the perfect pokemon for support. I imagine that a simple "Taunt / Spikes / Stealth Rock / Knock Off" set would be almost too much but this is something that we cant actually know until testing. I also think we would see quite a bit of double screen deoxys-d with such bulkiness as it is and being able to lay down both spikes.

edit: for your poll there should be an option that reads, yes but I thought of this before, as your thread really didnt show me anything i didnt know, other than the fact the deoxys-d is indeed very bulky (a lot of stuff in there was going for 3hkos or slim 2hkos wheich means deoxys is getting 2-4 spikes down depending on speed. deoxys-d also has 90 base speed dont forget).

 

[IcyMan28]

i think he should be tested and given a chance although I really dont know if he would stay in ou if he would be tested. One could compare him to CaP's Fidgit, the ultimate support pokemon. Both have their weaknesses and strengths but both are the perfect pokemon for support. I imagine that a simple "Taunt / Spikes / Stealth Rock / Knock Off" set would be almost too much but this is something that we cant actually know until testing. I also think we would see quite a bit of double screen deoxys-d with such bulkiness as it is and being able to lay down both spikes.

edit: for your poll there should be an option that reads, yes but I thought of this before, as your thread really didnt show me anything i didnt know, other than the fact the deoxys-d is indeed very bulky (a lot of stuff in there was going for 3hkos or slim 2hkos wheich means deoxys is getting 2-4 spikes down depending on speed. deoxys-d also has 90 base speed dont forget).

I'll add in a second yes option on the poll then, once I figure out how to do that.

DeoE is basically Wobbufet.. without the trapping ability. It will survive nearly any attack and can Counter/Mirror Coat it back, as well as Recover off the lost damage.

+2 LO Scizor 2OHKOs Deoxys... Why would you bother mentioning this?.. that kinda goes against your Deoxys is not Uber point.

DeoE can Counter / Mirror Coat once, I guess, since most of those things pretty much 3HKO. Scizor was listed for the sake of completeness, I guess.

 

[Jumpman16]

Deoxys-L @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/136 Def/120 Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Night Shade
~ Taunt
~ Thunder Wave
~ Recover


used to use this in ubers in 2004 and it was generally a huge dick that wouldn't die to anything because Taunt is one of the best moves in the game and even against ground types (groudon) it could Taunt on the switch or heads up. maybe if garchomp were still in the game this would have trouble being a total (BAN ME PLEASE) but the most popular ground type now is swampert and dxl still actually completely rapes it because it will taunt both curse and SR.

obviously this is theorymon but i'd use this set to paralyze pretty much everything i want, and pursuit? the matchup generally sucks tyranitar only does 40-48% with cb pursuit if dxs stays in and dxs can scout an FP or whatever by knowing crunch doesn't OHKO. this has 246 speed which is kind of a lot but fuck off celebi i guess, it can definitely drop speed way down because of the TW Taunt strategy and therefore take even less damage from everything, yay theorymon (not really i used this exact set a lot even if it was a while ago)

 

[Ditto]

The thing I see being a problem is another CosmicStall set, but this time with added bulkiness.

Calm/Careful/Impish/Bold
- Cosmic Power
- Recover
- Night Shade/Agility
- Toxic/Taunt

The first is able to hit everything, i think. The Second is just a stall set, agility to be faster and then taunt them or whatever.

 

[MDougal]

But you didn't even dwell on it's offensive possibilities. I think before a full suspect test is considered, we should look at him in the light of a bulky attacker. A CM set comes to mind, as he should be able to run CM/Recover and set up on just about anything.

 

[IcyMan28]

Deoxys-L @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/136 Def/120 Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Night Shade
~ Taunt
~ Thunder Wave
~ Recover


used to use this in ubers in 2004 and it was generally a huge dick that wouldn't die to anything because Taunt is one of the best moves in the game and even against ground types (groudon) it could Taunt on the switch or heads up. maybe if garchomp were still in the game this would have trouble being a total (BAN ME PLEASE) but the most popular ground type now is swampert and dxl still actually completely rapes it because it will taunt both curse and SR.

obviously this is theorymon but i'd use this set to paralyze pretty much everything i want, and pursuit? the matchup generally sucks tyranitar only does 40-48% with cb pursuit if dxs stays in and dxs can scout an FP or whatever by knowing crunch doesn't OHKO. this has 246 speed which is kind of a lot but fuck off celebi i guess, it can definitely drop speed way down because of the TW Taunt strategy and therefore take even less damage from everything, yay theorymon (not really i used this exact set a lot even if it was a while ago)

I'll admit that its effective, but even a non-CB Crunch from Adamant 252 Tyranitar manages to 2HKO, and defense drops are bound to happen. The increasingly popular SpecsJolt also manages (51.32% - 60.53%) with Shadow Ball, and is immune to Thunder Wave. Finally, I don't think this would do too well against Trick, either. It could devastate this set, though it certainly has its merits.

The thing I see being a problem is another CosmicStall set, but this time with added bulkiness.

I see your point, but what stops Toxic / Toxic Spikes from screwing it up?

But you didn't even dwell on it's offensive possibilities. I think before a full suspect test is considered, we should look at him in the light of a bulky attacker. A CM set comes to mind, as he should be able to run CM/Recover and set up on just about anything.

Modest +6 Deoxys-L using Psychic on Bold 148 HP / 252 Def Blissey: (48.11% - 56.69%).

It has a chance, but without Modest it fails to 2HKO. In the meantime, Blissey can Toxic stall with Wish + Protect, and 6 turns of setup isn't likely in this metagame. Point taken, though.

EDIT: I have to go now, but feel free to keep posting. I'll check back tomorrow.

 

[Kittymew]

Taunt/Knock Off/Spikes/Recover is a pretty good way to get 3 layers of spikes up, though it can definitely be setup bait for anything that can come in on spikes, outspeed it, SD on taunt, then beat it (and your team) into the ground. I think CM/Recover and some metagame-tailored set to get free spikes would see the most use.

Would it dominate? Honestly I don't know. The more I read the more I wonder if my no vote was too hasty, but the original post gave no relevant evidence.

 

[Veedrock]

Just theorymoning, I would run.

Deoxys-L @ Leftovers
252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 SpA
Bold
~Taunt
~Recover
~Calm Mind
~Psychic (just for STAB, though there's probably a better option)

Taunt ruins phazing/status, Recover for healing, Calm Mind to buff Special Defense and Special Attack (hello sweep). Psychic for STAB.

To my set, +2 Adamant LO Scizor using Bullet Punch fails to even 3HKO. Nearly 800 attack power and a base 90 move, failing to 3HKO. That's saying something. Now since my set is primarily bulky offensive, it wouldn't be used right away. Certain other threats need to be dealt with first (namely special attackers if Deoxys can't get in right away and faster status-inducers).

Now that's just bulky Offense. Toxic Stall could be a very plausible and ungodly annoying set. Support-wise it can set up entry hazards without fail (normally) and/or Dual Screen. I think that Deoxys-L was exactly what was in mind when the support definition was created for describing an uber, because it can set up a team to prepare for a sweep really nicely. Dual Screen + Taunt messes a lot of things up.

Oh, and stall would become next to unstoppable.

By all means let's test it (beats theorymon), but based off of everything I don't expect it to get very far.

 

[Relictivity]

The thing I see being a problem is another CosmicStall set, but this time with added bulkiness.

Calm/Careful/Impish/Bold
- Cosmic Power
- Recover
- Night Shade/Agility
- Toxic/Taunt

The first is able to hit everything, i think. The Second is just a stall set, agility to be faster and then taunt them or whatever.

I think that the entire point is here. If successfully able to Taunt and Cosmic Power, Deoxys-E could be pretty foolproof. You could also compare it to Clefable who can run a similar moveset

Clefable w/Leftovers (Nature: Calm/Careful/Impish/Bold)
-Cosmic Power
-Softboiled
-Seismic Toss (I think it learns this)
-Taunt

The difference - Clefable's stats are no where near par to perform this in OU with huge success. The threats are too strong.

Also to mention that Deoxys E could be stopped with Immuntiy Snorlax and Zangoose, but these are very specific situations.

EDIT: I suppose you could use Blissey too, but you'd have to switch out commonly, giving it time to heal, unless you had arethmopancy.

Overall, Deoxys E- has a high chance of being able to pull a set like this off. Also Taunt will stop some of the switch-ins from getting the necessary swords dance, calm mind, etc.

It could be tested I suppose... but I think it might be a bit too much.

 

[Birdy [old]]

Deoxys-L seems to me like Cressy with better moves. It does everything Cressy can do, and alot more. The main things being Recover, Spikes, Taunt, and Stealth Rock.

Any Calculations with Heracross? As him (along with Tyranitar) is probably the only thing that can easily switch in and OHKO it.

Can't decide yet. Imo, it's an uber. The support moves and stallish defenses and moves makes it too strong. Of course, im up for testing =D

 

[Erazor]

Just theorymoning, I would run.

Deoxys-L @ Leftovers
252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 SpA
Bold
~Taunt
~Recover
~Calm Mind
~Psychic (just for STAB, though there's probably a better option)

Taunt ruins phazing/status, Recover for healing, Calm Mind to buff Special Defense and Special Attack (hello sweep). Psychic for STAB.

To my set, +2 Adamant LO Scizor using Bullet Punch fails to even 3HKO. Nearly 800 attack power and a base 90 move, failing to 3HKO. That's saying something. Now since my set is primarily bulky offensive, it wouldn't be used right away. Certain other threats need to be dealt with first (namely special attackers if Deoxys can't get in right away and faster status-inducers).

*snip*

By all means let's test it (beats theorymon), but based off of everything I don't expect it to get very far.

Tyranitar says hi.

However, I did notice that you said that certain threats need to be eliminated. So maybe there's potential for this. But isn't Psychic a poor offensive type in OU?

 

[Imran]

My initial thoughts on Deoxys-l are that it will be deemed Uber. It seems to fit this "perfect support Pokemon" category. For example, it can set up 2-3 layers of Spikes simply because of its extreme bulk, never mind the fact that it can Recover off damage easily. It's not exactly slow either, and can invest enough in Speed to outspeed a lot of things to Taunt them and then start setting up. This Pokemon has not only the defensive stats, but the movepool to effectivly use those stats, something that separates it from something like Shuckle, who sits there and can really only Stealth Rock, Toxic, Encore, Knock Off.

+2 LO Scizor 2OHKOs Deoxys... Why would you bother mentioning this?.. that kinda goes against your Deoxys is not Uber point.

It is important to keep the OP as un-biased as possible I guess, to promote a general discussion about the Pokemon itself, rather than have the entire discussion based on replying directly to the OP.

EDIT: In short, Yes I would consider it a suspect, but my thoughts are that it will be sent back to Ubers rather than kept in OU.

 

[kd24]

personally, i feel that the "offensive" sets are pretty terrible to use when you have the ultimate utility user at your side. if you plan on using deoxys-d offensively, then it probably is going to be in an offensive team as no stall / mix team would use him like that. and my point in all of this is, offensive teams are dying for something with access to both spikes, taunt, reflect, light screen, ect. they dont need just another "ok" attacker (that is what deoxys-d is in my opinion, an outstanding defender but a simply "ok" attacker by todays standards). being able to take off 37-50% health off walls with SR + spikes is way too valuable for offensive teams.

i would also be terrified of a choice scarf - trick / sr / spikes / screen or tr lead as well, now that i think about it.

 

[Caelum]

I've always considered Deoxys-l worthy of being considered a suspect.

Offensively, it has a small bit of potential but not a lot. With only base 70 Special Attack / Attack outside of powerful super-effective hits (read like Superpower on Tyranitar / Fire Punch on Scizor etc) it isn't going to be doing much on the offensive end of the spectrum, barely any damage at all I'd say. To even become a minor offensive threat Deoxys-l would absolutely require Calm Mind. However, it's Special Attack stat is even lower than Cresselia's (by 5 points) and I think we all know how weak CM Cresselia is offensively. In short, I don't see this even posing a remote offensive threat to anything.

So, basically the only viable way of using Deoxys-l in standard is as a support Pokemon (albeit one with a fantastic support move pool). Recover, Seismic Toss / Night Shade, Stealth Rock , Spikes, Screens, Trick Room, Weather, Knock Off, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick, CounterCoat etc etc etc. This thing is a god-send of support Pokemon. The thing of it is though, it wouldn't be one set in particular that would provide such significant support it would be considered broken. It would be the fact that Deoxys-l can run so many different support options that the unpredictability factor is what would make it such an effective support Pokemon. For example, maybe you deal with the Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic / Recover Deoxys-l with say a Choice Band Scizor. However, to your surprise, it is a Stealth Rock / Spikes / Counter / Recover Deoxys-l and it just killed your CB Scizor as it Countered the Bullet Punch / U-turn / Pursuit. Hey, maybe even this Deoxys-l is a bizarre Choice Specs Trick version (it has the move pool most certainly lol). I know it's not a "great" example (hey, 2 minute theorymon here give me a break) but you get the point. The sheer number of viable support options coupled with its good durability would make it an excellent support Pokemon. If this Pokemon had the same stats but only had access to say Stealth Rock & Recover, this wouldn't even really be a big discussion. It's the excessive number of viable support options that would make Deoxys-l such a threat in the supporting role.

Talking about it's general bulk, looking at those calculations I wasn't surprised at all. This calculations weren't all that impressive defensively (particularly for something with 50 / 160 / 160 defenses) and it just shows how hyper-offensive DPP can actually be. Deoxys-l has the raw stats, but the pure Psychic typing hurts it. Obviously the Pursuit weakness is quite the burden (although Celebi manages alright ^__^) but it's just that it does have any useful resistances to take advantage of. That's Deoxys-l's biggest problem as a defensive Pokemon in both ubers and would be in OU if it were ever tested. Raw stats are nice, but resistances are so important in defensive play that raw stats can't always make up for it.

 

[MetaNite]

This Deoxys is probably worthy of suspect, but if I were ever going to use it in OU, I would not mix my defense EVs. Out of all the Pokemon that you gave calculations for, only 2 are likely to go mix: Salamance and Infernape.

I would max my Deoxys' defense, giving it 304 HP / 460 Def. Sure I couldn't wall special attacks, but that's what blissey is for.

Back to Mence and Ape, yeah Salamance can do loads of damage to me with Draco Meteor, but with a well timed Recover I can just forget about it. Deoxys resisted Fighting, which means I have little to worry about Close Combat. I'd need to max my SpD to make a great Infernape counter.

So what about:

Deoxys-D @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Spikes / Stealth Rock / Whatever...

The EVs turn a lot of those 2HKOes from physical attacks into 3HKOes, such as those aformentioned attacks from Lucario, Gyarados and Scizor.

For a support set, I'd run something like Recover / SR / Taunt / Spikes with a similiar EV spread.

 

[cim]

Deoxys-D, like everything we have time for, should be tested

Deoxys-D will never be banned for pure bulk alone. It's not much better (if it is) than Cresselia defensively. But the reason Cresselia is awful in OU and Deoxys-D would be a superstar lies entirely in the movepool; it has nothing to do with hit taking ability. Cresselia can come in and... then what? Thunder Wave or Reflect. That's all it has. (Don't say Trick / Burn Orb, please.) Deoxys-D has a ton of options; Recover and Taunt for itself, Spikes (this is what I'm most excited about, I'd very much enjoy having a choice in Spiker other than Skarmory), the same screens as Cresselia, Knock Off... those are huge. It's also marginally faster, but whatever. He provides a lot of defense and some great support. We'll see what happens.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

In short, Deoxys-D is a monster.

Although I'm highly sceptical of our new, 'official' Uber definition, if we apply it to Deoxys-d it fills up two of the three categories listed. Although, as stated before, not the greatest wall in the world, it is still more or less a powerful force to be reckoned with. I'm saying that, if we really must test this flipping thing, let's test everything else first.
Garchomp would cut its fins off for a movepool like that. It's also pretty fast, all things considered, for something called a wall (which is a shame, really; dump 80 of those into HP and you'd have the perfect Trick Room setter).

 

[MapleSandwich]

-Cosmic Power
-Substiute
-Taunt
-Recover

Deoxys-D now does not care about anything. Assuming you're not sending the damn thing out against a taunter to begin with, you can simply CP its stats up to over 1000, Taunt any phazing your opponents may plan on using on you, and Recover away the pitiful attacks your opponent has. Nothing can break this, especially with its subs. It will simply stall your opponent until they are out of PP. See: Deoxys-E stall set, but ten times worse. Particularly if you pass a speed boost to it. This fits the defensive definition of Uber to the max. Give it Bold and max HP, and it can easily set up Calm Minds to attack with. Or it could merely status and set up spikes like there's no tomorrow. I will never be convinced Deoxys-D is not uber, because there's simply too much evidence that it can easily become the most used Pokémon in almost any category.

Specifically, your analysis set up an unboosted Deoxys-D against some of the most powerful Pokemon in the OU metagame, many of them with boosts already. That makes it quite invalid in my opinon.

 

[panamaxis]

@maple sandswich, they can just keep switching out and never waste pp, unless you have entry hazards, but even then, they could just switch in starmie, rapid spin and then keep switching out. Lol at tangerine's edit.

 

[IcyMan28]

I'm back for the day, and glad to see all the input. I'll try as I can to respond to some of these posts (though they obviously aren't all directed towards me).

Deoxys-L @ Leftovers

252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 SpA
Bold
~Taunt
~Recover
~Calm Mind
~Psychic (just for STAB, though there's probably a better option)

Taunt ruins phazing/status, Recover for healing, Calm Mind to buff Special Defense and Special Attack (hello sweep). Psychic for STAB.

To my set, +2 Adamant LO Scizor using Bullet Punch fails to even 3HKO. Nearly 800 attack power and a base 90 move, failing to 3HKO. That's saying something. Now since my set is primarily bulky offensive, it wouldn't be used right away. Certain other threats need to be dealt with first (namely special attackers if Deoxys can't get in right away and faster status-inducers).

Now that's just bulky Offense. Toxic Stall could be a very plausible and ungodly annoying set. Support-wise it can set up entry hazards without fail (normally) and/or Dual Screen. I think that Deoxys-L was exactly what was in mind when the support definition was created for describing an uber, because it can set up a team to prepare for a sweep really nicely. Dual Screen + Taunt messes a lot of things up.

The set certainly looks viable, but it does have its problems.
For one thing, while 252 / 252 Bold gives you awesome defenses, you can only muster (32.27% - 38.08%) to Bold 148 HP / 252 Def Blissey at +6 Sp.A, and she remains in the top 10 pokemon of OU. Unlike Jirachi, it has serious issues with Toxic (spikes), and has no room for a second attacking move to complete coverage. The largely steel OU, as well as Tyranitar, will have little difficulty taking hits from this.
I'll admit that the support options, especially Dual Screen, would present a challenge, but other pokemon can use Dual Screen as well, and we would have to show that DS on Deoxys-L is more broken than on those other pokemon.

Deoxys-L seems to me like Cressy with better moves. It does everything Cressy can do, and alot more. The main things being Recover, Spikes, Taunt, and Stealth Rock.

Any Calculations with Heracross? As him (along with Tyranitar) is probably the only thing that can easily switch in and OHKO it.

Can't decide yet. Imo, it's an uber. The support moves and stallish defenses and moves makes it too strong. Of course, im up for testing =D

I see your point here. I would go so far as to say, though, that due to the ability of so many pokemon being able to learn SR, Spikes would be the preferred choice on Deoxys-L. Then of course, Deoxys-L is completely shut down by Taunt, as those base 70 offenses won't be hitting anything short of a 4x weak too hard.

Jolly 252 Atk. Heracross using Megahorn on 252 / 252 Bold Deoxys-L: (65.13% - 76.97%) In case you were still wondering. CB / LO not included.

My initial thoughts on Deoxys-l are that it will be deemed Uber. It seems to fit this "perfect support Pokemon" category. For example, it can set up 2-3 layers of Spikes simply because of its extreme bulk, never mind the fact that it can Recover off damage easily. It's not exactly slow either, and can invest enough in Speed to outspeed a lot of things to Taunt them and then start setting up. This Pokemon has not only the defensive stats, but the movepool to effectivly use those stats, something that separates it from something like Shuckle, who sits there and can really only Stealth Rock, Toxic, Encore, Knock Off.

This is true as well. A suspect test would need to prove that Deoxys-L isn't too difficult to handle for a normal team. I find myself noting that both Trick and enemy Taunts are extremely effective in shutting down Deoxys-L, and it applies here as well. Obviously, 2 strategies aren't enough to move it down, but they are viable strategies in their own right and at least one of them is prevalent in today's metagame regardless.

personally, i feel that the "offensive" sets are pretty terrible to use when you have the ultimate utility user at your side. if you plan on using deoxys-d offensively, then it probably is going to be in an offensive team as no stall / mix team would use him like that. and my point in all of this is, offensive teams are dying for something with access to both spikes, taunt, reflect, light screen, ect. they dont need just another "ok" attacker (that is what deoxys-d is in my opinion, an outstanding defender but a simply "ok" attacker by todays standards). being able to take off 37-50% health off walls with SR + spikes is way too valuable for offensive teams.

i would also be terrified of a choice scarf - trick / sr / spikes / screen or tr lead as well, now that i think about it.

The support it offers to offensive teams is another aspect to consider, I'm glad you brought this up. Despite all of those defenses, though, I doubt that an intelligent player is going to let Deoxys-L have 4 free turns of setup for Spikes + SR, and then 2 more for screens. Trick / Taunt / Toxic / Choice User is going to show up soon enough, and Deoxys-L isn't going to like taking a SE boosted attack.

So, basically the only viable way of using Deoxys-l in standard is as a support Pokemon (albeit one with a fantastic support move pool). Recover, Seismic Toss / Night Shade, Stealth Rock , Spikes, Screens, Trick Room, Weather, Knock Off, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick, CounterCoat etc etc etc. This thing is a god-send of support Pokemon. The thing of it is though, it wouldn't be one set in particular that would provide such significant support it would be considered broken. It would be the fact that Deoxys-l can run so many different support options that the unpredictability factor is what would make it such an effective support Pokemon. For example, maybe you deal with the Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic / Recover Deoxys-l with say a Choice Band Scizor. However, to your surprise, it is a Stealth Rock / Spikes / Counter / Recover Deoxys-l and it just killed your CB Scizor as it Countered the Bullet Punch / U-turn / Pursuit. Hey, maybe even this Deoxys-l is a bizarre Choice Specs Trick version (it has the move pool most certainly lol). I know it's not a "great" example (hey, 2 minute theorymon here give me a break) but you get the point. The sheer number of viable support options coupled with its good durability would make it an excellent support Pokemon. If this Pokemon had the same stats but only had access to say Stealth Rock & Recover, this wouldn't even really be a big discussion. It's the excessive number of viable support options that would make Deoxys-l such a threat in the supporting role.

Talking about it's general bulk, looking at those calculations I wasn't surprised at all. This calculations weren't all that impressive defensively (particularly for something with 50 / 160 / 160 defenses) and it just shows how hyper-offensive DPP can actually be. Deoxys-l has the raw stats, but the pure Psychic typing hurts it. Obviously the Pursuit weakness is quite the burden (although Celebi manages alright ^__^) but it's just that it does have any useful resistances to take advantage of. That's Deoxys-l's biggest problem as a defensive Pokemon in both ubers and would be in OU if it were ever tested. Raw stats are nice, but resistances are so important in defensive play that raw stats can't always make up for it.

-I think Caelum has summed up quite a bit here. First things first, Deoxys can't run all of those support moves at once, and it will generally save a slot for Recover. Unpredictability isn't what makes a pokemon Uber - we still have Mew as a suspect, right?
-He also mentions that the calculations aren't all that impressive and that all they do is show how offensive DPPt can be. Though this may be true, it also implies that while Deoxys-L may have been too overpowered for an Advance metagame, this may not be the case in DPPt.

This Deoxys is probably worthy of suspect, but if I were ever going to use it in OU, I would not mix my defense EVs. Out of all the Pokemon that you gave calculations for, only 2 are likely to go mix: Salamance and Infernape.

I would max my Deoxys' defense, giving it 304 HP / 460 Def. Sure I couldn't wall special attacks, but that's what blissey is for.

Metanite, this is a perfectly viable option. My EV spread was only a result of X-Act's ideal defense applet, thus the mixed EVs. The stats are still impressive in both defenses.

it fills up two of the three categories listed.

The damage calculations show that it really isn't as impervious to offense as one would think. 50 base HP isn't anything special. As for the support categories, testing would be the only real way to determine this - everything else is just theorymon (though some is rather obvious).

it is still more or less a powerful force to be reckoned with

Interesting that you should say "more or less." And this could be said of any OU pokemon - that's the entire reason why they are OU.

It's also pretty fast, all things considered, for something called a wall

Pretty fast yes, but there are faster walls, and their resistances give them arguably equal footing when it comes to walling.

-Cosmic Power

-Substiute
-Taunt
-Recover

Deoxys-D now does not care about anything. Assuming you're not sending the damn thing out against a taunter to begin with, you can simply CP its stats up to over 1000, Taunt any phazing your opponents may plan on using on you, and Recover away the pitiful attacks your opponent has. Nothing can break this, especially with its subs. It will simply stall your opponent until they are out of PP. See: Deoxys-E stall set, but ten times worse. Particularly if you pass a speed boost to it. This fits the defensive definition of Uber to the max. Give it Bold and max HP, and it can easily set up Calm Minds to attack with. Or it could merely status and set up spikes like there's no tomorrow. I will never be convinced Deoxys-D is not uber, because there's simply too much evidence that it can easily become the most used Pokémon in almost any category.

Calm Mind Deoxys-D is too weak offensively to do any real damage in time, especially to Blissey. I've pointed this out already. Also, if there is no sub up, it is easily shut down by Trick.

Specifically, your analysis set up an unboosted Deoxys-D against some of the most powerful Pokemon in the OU metagame, many of them with boosts already. That makes it quite invalid in my opinon.

If you look closer, you will notice that my list extends all the way down to Empoleon, the last sweeper that can be classified as OU. This is far from including only the most powerful OU sweepers (that would only include like the top 10 pokemon). Including damage calculations from walls would have been pointless because obviously they have no offensive power whatsoever; I would hope that Deoxys-L could wall them.

As far as my analysis including boosts already, most of those boosts come from a Choice Item. Otherwise, it assumes that Deoxys-L is switching in to counter said threats, which it must be able to do to fit the Defense Characteristic. That means that on the switch, they get their Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Calm Mind, etc. Furthermore, LO is a common item on offensive threats, so that contributes to the damage as well.

If you question exactly how common some of these sets are, I used the December statistics table listing Nature, moves, EVs, and items to simulate what appear to be the most common sets. I could have made some mistakes; feel free to check for yourself.

Finally, I don't assume that Deoxys-L has any boosts under its belt because damage calculations aren't typically done that way. No one runs damage calculations of Salamence vs. +1 Def Hippowdon, because Hippowdon is coming into Mence, not the other way around. Second, I had no particular set in mind, as this thread is made with the idea of exploring multiple options to determine D-L's candidacy as a suspect. Finally, defensive boosts aren't always reliable, because critical hits are inevitable.

By the way, despite the starting Sp.Def of 356, Deoxys-L isn't going to be keeping subs up against special hits.

319 Atk vs 356 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 93 - 109 (30.59% - 35.86%)

That's unboosted max Sp.A Timid Jolteon using Thunderbolt, a neutral special attack. Jolt switches in on the sub, breaks it as you CP, and proceeds to do an average of 25% exactly with Shadow Ball - so your Sub still breaks. Jolteon was just an example of a special attacker (and unboosted at that).

-As a final point, Deoxys-L can spend as much time as it wants setting up entry hazards, only to have something spin them away. Rapid Spin's enormous PP can ensure that this can continue for ages.

 

[Relictivity]

As far as my analysis including boosts already, most of those boosts come from a Choice Item. Otherwise, it assumes that Deoxys-L is switching in to counter said threats, which it must be able to do to fit the Defense Characteristic. That means that on the switch, they get their Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Calm Mind, etc. Furthermore, LO is a common item on offensive threats, so that contributes to the damage as well.

Yes, this is how most defensive walls play in the first place. However, it would not be smart to switch Deoxys-E into DD Tar or SD LO Scizor. What if this Deoxys was played in a different way to other walls, that is it came in on something not a threat, and started walling from there. In other words, what if it forced things that were sweepers to switch in to counter. That means no SD for Scizor or DD for Tar.

It would also seem interesting to know, from Platinum, does Deoxys learn spite? Cause if so, it could run a certain PP restoring berry and...

 

[IcyMan28]

Yes, this is how most defensive walls play in the first place. However, it would not be smart to switch Deoxys-E into DD Tar or SD LO Scizor. What if this Deoxys was played in a different way to other walls, that is it came in on something not a threat, and started walling from there. In other words, what if it forced things that were sweepers to switch in to counter. That means no SD for Scizor or DD for Tar.

It would also seem interesting to know, from Platinum, does Deoxys learn spite? Cause if so, it could run a certain PP restoring berry and...

-They were included for the sake of completeness; I understand your point. But let's say that it did switch in on say, ScarfJirachi Iron Head. It forces it out, and they bring in one of several pokemon listed in the calculations that can do significant damage to it with either raw power, a SE hit, or a choiced / LO attack. SpecsJolt Shadow Ball is crippling. LO Mamoswine can do upwards of 50% with EQ, a 2HKO with SR. You Spiked instead of Taunting on the switchin? Offensive LO Suicune nabbed a CM and can now slowly wash you away with Surf. Even worse, who's to say that CB Scizor won't show up and U-turn out of there the next turn? The same can be said of any slow, bulky attacker that doesn't mind being paralyzed; Scizor is simply the best example because Bullet Punch bypasses the speed drop.

-Deoxys-L can definately force some switches, but the switch is generally going to be to a pokemon that can reliably take it on. Toxic Spikes is a huge problem for Deoxys-L as well, because ResTalk severely hinders it.

-Just for reference, I used serebii.net for access to the movepool of the entire Deoxys species. Sadly, Spite was nowhere to be seen, neither this gen nor the last.

 

[Relictivity]

-They were included for the sake of completeness; I understand your point. But let's say that it did switch in on say, ScarfJirachi Iron Head. It forces it out, and they bring in one of several pokemon listed in the calculations that can do significant damage to it with either raw power, a SE hit, or a choiced / LO attack. SpecsJolt Shadow Ball is crippling. LO Mamoswine can do upwards of 50% with EQ, a 2HKO with SR. You Spiked instead of Taunting on the switchin? Offensive LO Suicune nabbed a CM and can now slowly wash you away with Surf. Even worse, who's to say that CB Scizor won't show up and U-turn out of there the next turn? The same can be said of any slow, bulky attacker that doesn't mind being paralyzed; Scizor is simply the best example because Bullet Punch bypasses the speed drop.

-Deoxys-L can definately force some switches, but the switch is generally going to be to a pokemon that can reliably take it on. Toxic Spikes is a huge problem for Deoxys-L as well, because ResTalk severely hinders it.

-Just for reference, I used serebii.net for access to the movepool of the entire Deoxys species. Sadly, Spite was nowhere to be seen, neither this gen nor the last.

Assuming this set.

-Cosmic Power
-Recover
-Taunt
-Night Shade

I probably would not have spikes on a set. Taunting is much more useful. The problem with this would definately be choice/life orb pokemon. However, if you saw a Scizor, you would probably switch out in the first place (you have no cosmic power boosts, no loss). Because the pokemon is choiced, even if it pursuited you (which Deoxy's-E is bulky enough to survive, even with technitian) it would leave you free to switch in a counter. If it U-Turned and switched, the new pokemon would have to land on some set of spikes set up before Deoxys (not by her, and Scizor can't rapid spin). Even though they would be able to pick to counter your incoming pokemon, that is what U-turn is for. And they would be down health. In terms of T-Tar, it is also choiced and can be used for your own setup. (In my opinion, Choice Items often lead to moments of setup, as well as sweeps). Life Orb pokemon are not so much an ease on the predicting but -.2 power is alot, and recoil damage.

On the other hand, if they send in something expecting spikes, you have a free turn to start your setup!

I don't think I answered this fully, but that's because I don't have all that much experience with Deoxys-E. I guess I'm therymoning, but aren't we all.

About Spite, that's really too bad, it could do what Spiritomb does :(

Toxic Spikes are a problem for Deoxys though. Possible solution in arethmopancy by a teammate.

 

[TPM]

At the moment I'm not entirely convinced that we should perform a full suspect test it, though if someone could try it out by the challenging method it'd be great to here some stories. Just need a bit more evidence...