Deoxys-D Discussion - It's not all about speed.

[Luxormaniac]

I say that you can run damage calcs all you want, but the only way you'll ever be able to know for sure is to just test that baby and see how it does. There's only a testing backlog of about (let's see... Latios, Soul Dew, I think, and probably everything else we already banned, Skymin and Garchomp and Deo-E...) that's about 5 months of testing, or thereabouts. So I'd love to test Deoxys-L sometime in July. See you then!

 

[Veedrock]

Shaymin-S isn't being tested again, and I doubt Soul Dew runs for an entire month (it will quickly lose interest). Not sure where we go from there though.

I still think there are factors being overlooked/not considered by the suspect advocators, but a test never killed anyone. Making rating will be a bitch though.

 

[wildfire393]

Who is the best pairing with Deoxys-E?

Blissey takes Shadow Balls, while Deoxys-E takes fighting attacks.

Perhaps a:

Blissey:
252 Defense, 252 Special Defense
Calm

Wish
Aomatherapy
Seismic Toss
Stealth Rock/Protect

Deoxys-E:
252 HP / 252 Def/ 4 SpD
Impish

Reflect
Knock-off/Stealth Rock
Taunt
Thunder Wave


These things are important to consider when deciding about something being too good. With proper support to make up for its lack in using some moves (like Recover is replaced by Wish support, Rest+Talk isn't needed with Aromatherapy), does this Pokemon, then function too well?

(i.e. Walrein is not the greatest on its own, but when combined with Abomasnow, then it really becomes powerful. Some even want it bounced up to BL, rather than keeping UU; even though they may not mind Abomasnow staying UU).

Does the proper support allow it to do a job too well?

Blissey can't get both Wish and Aromatherapy (or Heal Bell). She only gets Wish by being Wishbliss, and can only get Aromatherapy/Heal Bell through breeding. Plus the combination here is far too weak to Physical Dark attacks. Or pretty much anything Tyranitar can throw at them. Adamant DDtar with LO and 1 Dance will do minimum 98% to Max HP/Max Def Bold Deo-D with a Crunch. The same crunch will always OHKO that Blissey. Tyranniboah is just as bad. Focus Punch of course OHKOs Bliss, and a 252/Positive Dark Pulse will do minimum 100% to 252 HP/0 SpD neutral Deo-D

 

[IcyMan28]

This is my last post regarding this as I won't go back and forth on this subject.


Um... big deal? Garchomp was immune to paralysis and could be made bulkier to take more hits and the fact remains that "BulkyChomp" didn't need much investment, anyway >_>. Earthquakes weren't a big deal to Garchomp, anyway.


What I meant by situational was Deoxys-L switching in on a boost, or, even duirng Rain Dance turns as you said. Just saying, it's kind of sitational to assume that those boosts will be up as Deoxys-L switches in.

I see your point, but since the defensive characteristic assumes that it can "wall and stall out" a majority of the metagame, you have to assume worst case scenario.

The fact is that with a bulky set, Salamence is actually losing some needed power to actually do some damage, requiring more turns of setup.

Okay, so, since my response only referred to the offensive version of Salamence, I will continue to only refer to it. So, since you factor in Stealth Rock into every calculation, I will too. Deoxys-L will OHKO Salamence with Stealth Rock support. Deoxys-L will OHKO Gyarados with Thunderbolt after Stealth Rock and Life Orb damage were taken into account. You get my point? And it doesn't take away from Deoxys-L's ability to wall things much.

Despite Salamence losing some power with the bulky set, it has the bulk to get in the necessary DDs to make up for that power loss. As far as Gyarados is concerned, who's to say that it isn't running Leftovers? Even being so offensive, its bulk makes it a viable option. Not to mention that Gyarados, too, learns Taunt.

I never insinuated that Heatran had to go with Choice Specs to beat it, I only said that Deoxys-L would just outstall it in the end, Fire Blast's PP will just drain out while Deoxys-L just recovers off the damage >_>.

I must have misunderstood you then.

Obivously, as I've already said, a 394 Special Attack, boosted by Choice Specs, with a base 120 STAB move is going to be hitting hard >_>.

And so are several other attacks in OU that are not uncommonly boosted by a Choice Item. The best Choice users have good neutral coverage and high base-powered moves; they are already popular in the metagame as it is.

I only said that Timid SpecsTran is much more viable due to the fact that Heatran will die to its threats that it doesn't outspeed like, Mamoswine and Heracross. Also, the amount of damage it does to other Pokemon with a Timid Nature doesn't really differ much that what Modest would be doing, only with Deoxys-L. I never said that it wasn't viable at all.

Okay, so we went with Timid SpecsTran. It still does 49.67% minimum to Max HP / Max Sp.Def Calm Deoxys-L, 2HKOing 63.97% of the time with Lefties factored in. SR makes it a guaranteed 2HKO.

Wait... what? Kingdra rarely plays outside of Rain? That's just false, even without Rain, Kindgra doesn't really need much of a boost to be considered dangerous and I'm sure that more than enough Kingdra users can say that it doesn't really need the rain to play in OU correctly.

Bad wording on my part, sorry. What I meant to say is that rain really isn't that situational for Kingdra; Kingdra users know that Rain Dance not only boosts the power of its Waterfall / Hydro Pump, but it also doubles its average speed. Odds are that they will have some rain support for Kingdra (at least for the more offensive sets), or have Kingdra set up rain for itself.

I think that I can prove my point here. Deoxys-L's, as do many Psychic's weaknesses lie in Dark and Ghost moves moves (as I've said numerous times), it has a base 90 Speed, Taunt, Spikes, Stealth Rock and Recover, the only drawback is its HP. Deoxys-L

Base 70 offenses are a rather big drawback as well. Without a 4x hit, it isn't doing enough damage fast enough to successfully stop a setup. And despite all of those options, it can only choose so many, so moveslot syndrome comes into play.

Actually, I never said or insinuated that Deoxys-L would be Taunting every single switch in >_>. Unless, of course, someone gives every member of their team Toxic and/or a move that allows them to setup first.

Sadly though, it will practically have to. Without Taunt, sweeper X came in and set up, poised to kill you. Taunter Y came in and completely shut you down. Choice-Tricker Z switched in and took you out for the rest of the match. All of these strategies are completely viable and even common (except maybe Taunt), so Taunting on the first turn is a must.

This can be said about any Uber, what makes Deoxys-L so different?


Not really, after the first Taunt, Deoxys would just setup what it needs to and get out as quickly as possible.


Okay, off the top of my head, not much is faster that commonly carries Toxic. Dugtrio is probabally the only Pokemon that can find a slot for Toxic that's fast enough to even use it without getting met with Taunt. Speaking of, not many Taunt users can do much to Deoxys-L, anyway (Weavile is only one who can actually do something). Trick ruins any wall, so, I don't see your point there.

There are plenty of sweepers that run Toxic just to mess up their counters for future switching, it really isn't that uncommon. Toxic Spikes are another issue, and while they can be spun away, they still present an issue.

Then... can't that apply to Deoxys-L's team, too? A Spinner isn't needed, but, it helps dispell entry hazards that could potentially hamper Deoxys-L's viability.

I won't reply to what's actually inside of the quote since there are common OU contenders that can take Deoxys-L on easily, in other words, you proved me wrong >_<. Anyway, I'll say this: I was misguided about my posistion about Deoxys-L, after looking past its defenses, I found out that Deoxys-L actually makes sweeping for other Pokemon much easier. It can take hits well while running from a nice Speed, using Toxic/Thunder Wave in tandem with Taunt, support moves and a reliable Recovery move.

Didn't Deoxys-E do the same thing? Deoxys-E had a monsterous Speed combined with somewhat usable Defenses, not much was killing lead DS variants of it. With Deoxys-L, it can easily run a support set with Spikes, Taunt, Recover and Toxic/Thunder Wave, slowly withering down or crippling the opposing team while setting up Spikes, Recovering off damage and keeping itself or its team from getting hit with status or, just to prevent being setup on. Not only that, but, it just needs about a 52 investment in Speed to make it past the standard Breloom, allowing it to carry on with its regular job without being interupted by Spore. Seeing as how Toxic users are either slower or, can't find a slot for it, Deoxys-L already has an upperhand on them >_>.

Deoxys-E had the speed to avoid being Taunted out of setting up DS, and can even outspeed common TrickScarfers like Jirachi. Once again, Deoxys-L isn't running Spikes, Knock Off, Dual Screen, Stealth Rock, Toxic, Thunder Wave, etc, all at once. Odds are it will choose the one that best fits the team.

Does the proper support allow it to do a job too well?

-This question is irrelevant; the fact is that any pokemon can do its job "too well" with the proper support.

 

[Darkerkrai]

Who is the best pairing with Deoxys-E?

Blissey takes Shadow Balls, while Deoxys-E takes fighting attacks.

Perhaps a:

Blissey:
252 Defense, 252 Special Defense
Calm

Wish
Aomatherapy
Seismic Toss
Stealth Rock/Protect

Deoxys-E:
252 HP / 252 Def/ 4 SpD
Impish

Reflect
Knock-off/Stealth Rock
Taunt
Thunder Wave


These things are important to consider when deciding about something being too good. With proper support to make up for its lack in using some moves (like Recover is replaced by Wish support, Rest+Talk isn't needed with Aromatherapy), does this Pokemon, then function too well?

(i.e. Walrein is not the greatest on its own, but when combined with Abomasnow, then it really becomes powerful. Some even want it bounced up to BL, rather than keeping UU; even though they may not mind Abomasnow staying UU).

Tyranitar and Weavile run a brick through their heads too easily. In an honest opinion, I'd find Deoxys-D + Scizor better, Scizor revenge killing Ghosts and Darks while Deoxys-D does its job at crippling things and supporting.

Does the proper support allow it to do a job too well?

That applies to any Pokemon >_<. Salamence can do its job at sweeping too well with DS and SR support. Scizor can do its job better with a Dugtrio to trap Heatran or, a Blissey to kill Zapdos.

Now, if Deoxys-D only requires minimum support to support(?!), then, yeah, you could bring that up; by minimum support, I mean something that keeps Deoxys-D from dying without taking much damage at all. However, if Deoxys-D can't find a combination of somewhat little support with no common weaknesses, then, that statement is totally invalid.

 

[Relictivity]

Unfortunately, the proper amount of support in the current metagame cannot be used as reason to make a pokemon uber, at least yet. Pretty much any sweeper (Darkerai mentioned Salamence) can become a beast when provided with proper supporting pokemon. And yet, we cannot do anything to stop it.

I have the same reaction as Darkerai, I am kind of unhappy with how easy it is to provide support for a sweeper (and for Deoxys, a wall). Getting rid of counters is just, simply, too easy. (sighs) Maybe in the future this will change, but for now it is not.

Truthfully, the best of the sweepers (Salamence, Lucario, and Scizor) require about the same amount of setup as Deoxys D. So I can't truly say that Deoxys requires the minimum amount of setup.

 

[Matthew]

Shaymin-S isn't being tested again, and I doubt Soul Dew runs for an entire month (it will quickly lose interest). Not sure where we go from there though.

When did we decide that Shaymin-S isn't getting tested again? I was almost 100% positive that we were giving her another go. So if this changed I would like to know so that I can protest this.

EDIT: Some one stole my sig ._.

 

[Darkerkrai]

Truthfully, the best of the sweepers (Salamence, Lucario, and Scizor) require about the same amount of setup as Deoxys D. So I can't truly say that Deoxys requires the minimum amount of setup.

Actually... no, they require more support than Deoxys-D needs. Salamence needs for bulky Ice Beam, HP Ice, Ice Shard users and Steels to be KO'd before attempting a Dragon Dance sweep. Lucario needs Ghosts, ScarfTran, Earthquake users and Zapdos gone before it can attempt a SD sweep. Scizor needs Rotom-A, Zapdos and bulky waters gone before it can attempt a sweep. Deoxys-D only needs Toxic and Taunt users to be at bay for a while >_>.

 

[Relictivity]

Salamence - It only needs Cressalia gone, unless the opponent has another ice sharder. And even then, 2 DD Outrages will kill it I think. Make it hold Yache. If you are willing, you can test for these Ice Sharders with a Gliscor before hand.

Lucario - Only needs Gengar, Heatran (those 2 also hate some of Luke's attacks) Zapdos (maybe, have to do calcs), and Gliscor to go. Dugtrio is to fragile, and any other EQer, to slow.


Scizor howeber, I agree with.
Scizor needs Tran (majorly hurt by Superpower), Zapdos, Oven form Rotom, bulky waters and Gyarados to begone. Of course Gyarados can be considered a bulky water I guess.

Deoxy's D needs powerful choice band/specers, t-tar and weavile (though can be crippled by TW) to be gone. Also, Faster Toxicers are annoying after you have setup.

 

[lilyhollow]

When did we decide that Shaymin-S isn't getting tested again? I was almost 100% positive that we were giving her another go. So if this changed I would like to know so that I can protest this.

EDIT: Some one stole my sig ._.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1757595&postcount=4

It'll have its opportunity at Stage 3, don't worry about it.

 

[Not Scicky]

Who is the best pairing with Deoxys-E?

Blissey takes Shadow Balls, while Deoxys-E takes fighting attacks.

Perhaps a:

Blissey:
252 Defense, 252 Special Defense
Calm

Wish
Aomatherapy
Seismic Toss
Stealth Rock/Protect

Deoxys-E:
252 HP / 252 Def/ 4 SpD
Impish

Reflect
Knock-off/Stealth Rock
Taunt
Thunder Wave


These things are important to consider when deciding about something being too good. With proper support to make up for its lack in using some moves (like Recover is replaced by Wish support, Rest+Talk isn't needed with Aromatherapy), does this Pokemon, then function too well?

(i.e. Walrein is not the greatest on its own, but when combined with Abomasnow, then it really becomes powerful. Some even want it bounced up to BL, rather than keeping UU; even though they may not mind Abomasnow staying UU).

Does the proper support allow it to do a job too well?

You do bring up a good point, however, the same could be said about Blissey...

Does Blissey make Deoxys-L uber, or does Deoxys-L make blissey uber? =/

 

[Relictivity]

You do bring up a good point, however, the same could be said about Blissey...

Does Blissey make Deoxys-L uber, or does Deoxys-L make blissey uber? =/

As far as I know, neither because currently, it isn't definded that other pokemon can make a pokemon uber. It will have to be discussed.

 

[Colonel M]

Many people make the argument "I can set up on Deoxys-D, why should I care?" when most of us forget that Taunt PREVENTS that negative aspect. And, may I add, will probably carry it frequently.

 

[blasphemy1]

People should not be setting up on any variant of Deoxys, whether it be speed, defense, or attack. Straight forward attacking is pretty obvious, and whoever tries to setup in front of it(unless of higher base speed) is a pretty uneducated player. Seriously, there are so many things that threaten this, and the case of DS doesn't really matter when pretty much every other psychic gets both screens too. Regardless, Colonel M I think most people here are intelligent enough to pack a CB Scizor / Tyranitar / etc. or even a Choice Specs Rotom-A would get the job done.

 

[Colonel M]

CB Scizor / Tyranitar would be the best choices blasphemy. Regardless, they still don't enjoy paralysis. CB Tyranitar likes 2HKOing Skarmory with Stone Edge, and isn't enjoying being Roost-stalled. Still, I perfectly understand the circumstances. Perhaps I am simply blind on the reason of adding this.

 

[IcyMan28]

And since CB Tyranitar and Scizor are already high up there in usage (especially with the now OU Latias), it isn't really overcentralizing. Just thought I'd point that out before someone else tries to make that point.

 

[bobbycat]

Maybe, but if you DON'T run Tyranitar or Scizor and can be stalled out by Deoxys-D, wouldn't you consider that a bit of overcentralization?

 

[Shiny Crobat]

I don't get the Taunt discussion. Every Pokemon faster than Deoxys-D could just use Taunt and stop Deoxys-D. With Pokemon like Latias in the metagame, Deoxys-D doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Darkerkrai]

I don't get the Taunt discussion. Every Pokemon faster than Deoxys-D could just use Taunt and stop Deoxys-D. With Pokemon like Latias in the metagame, Deoxys-D doesn't stand a chance.

I'll compare this to Ubers, again. If faster Pokemon can Taunt Giratina, then, it can't cripple them .If a faster Pokemon can Taunt Wobbufett, then, it can kill it. If a faster Pokemon can Taunt Mew, Mew won't do its job of Baton Passing or, Sweeping very well. If a faster Pokemon... okay, you should get my point about now >_>.

Faster Taunters can apply to every wall in the game. Dexoys-D differs from them... how?

Deoxys-D can Taunt Latias and stop her... big deal? Deoxys-D can cripple a lot of sweepers, hindering their sweeping ability. How can it not stand a chance?

 

[cim]

And since CB Tyranitar and Scizor are already high up there in usage (especially with the now OU Latias), it isn't really overcentralizing. Just thought I'd point that out before someone else tries to make that point.

That doesn't really matter. Something doesn't become Uber because its counters don't happen to be popular without them.

 

[IcyMan28]

Maybe, but if you DON'T run Tyranitar or Scizor and can be stalled out by Deoxys-D, wouldn't you consider that a bit of overcentralization?

I was just saying that most people agree that they are Deoxys-D's top two counters, and they are already pretty viable in their own right.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

I'll compare this to Ubers, again. If faster Pokemon can Taunt Giratina, then, it can't cripple them .If a faster Pokemon can Taunt Wobbufett, then, it can kill it. If a faster Pokemon can Taunt Mew, Mew won't do its job of Baton Passing or, Sweeping very well. If a faster Pokemon... okay, you should get my point about now >_>.

Faster Taunters can apply to every wall in the game. Dexoys-D differs from them... how?

Deoxys-D can Taunt Latias and stop her... big deal? Deoxys-D can cripple a lot of sweepers, hindering their sweeping ability. How can it not stand a chance?

Because OU is more fact paced. It's possible to give a lot fast Pokemon Taunt without hindering its ability to sweep. This is not possible in ubers. Your example about Mew is ridiculous. The uber metagame is slower than the OU metagame. Mew is one of the fastest Pokemon in the uber metagame, it's very unlikely this Pokemon would get taunted by any Pokemon other than Mewtwo.

Even if this doesn't differ from your example, does it matter? It still applies to Deoxys-D.

I was talking about Latias crippling Deoxys-D with Taunt.

 

[IcyMan28]

I'll compare this to Ubers, again. If faster Pokemon can Taunt Giratina, then, it can't cripple them .If a faster Pokemon can Taunt Wobbufett, then, it can kill it. If a faster Pokemon can Taunt Mew, Mew won't do its job of Baton Passing or, Sweeping very well. If a faster Pokemon... okay, you should get my point about now >_>.

-Giratina is Uber because base 150 / 120 / 120 defenses is godly. Even if it gets Taunted, it has either Ghost or Dragon STAB to fall back on, which is still effective in Ubers.

-Wobbuffett entirely removes an option from the game just by switching in. Its Uber status should be obvious.

-And if you want, you can Taunt Mew, but it still has base 100 offenses to hit you with what is basically any useful move in the game.

Faster Taunters can apply to every wall in the game. Dexoys-D differs from them... how?

Deoxys-D can Taunt Latias and stop her... big deal? Deoxys-D can cripple a lot of sweepers, hindering their sweeping ability. How can it not stand a chance?

Taunted or not, Deoxys-D has to Taunt pretty much every time it comes in to avoid being hit by a Toxic. As it does this, it basically gives a free turn to a powerful Band / Specs user to take advantage of. If it doesn't Taunt, it gets ruined by Toxic / Trick.

 

[Relictivity]

For Shiny Crobat... You cannot use Taunt if you have been Taunted.

For bobbycat... If you don't run a good ice beamer with a backup ice sharder, Salamence is going to run over your team. How is this different?

Sorry if I sound slightly rude, I'm just trying to be brief :)