ORAS OU Diancie the Flame v2 (peak #15)

[Charmflash]

Hey Smogon!​

I´m 10th Squad Toshiro/Captain/Taichou and here to post my 4th rmt in ORAS OU.


Proof of Elo:

#15

http://postimg.org/image/uworqqf0l/

Team Preview:

Yes, this is balance. Classic, oh so lovely balance.
I have a formula when building a backbone for a balanced team:
SpD Steel + Def Ground + somthing-for-Keldeo = win
In particular this trio of Starmie, Ferrothorn and Hippowdon has wonderful Hazard Control helping Talonflame, Diancie and Kyurem-Black to get necesarry KO´s / not getting worn down. Magic Bounce also helps in that regard.
In generall Fire/Water/Grass cores are really consistant and I like building around them. I also happen to have a steel/fairy/dragon core although I dont think it is that consistant as the fire water grass core that I mentioned.
The Team has a lot of diversity in form of mixed attackers, walls, hazard stacking, status, sand, priority, phazing and setup sweeper so there will be a lot of decisions you have to make while playing this team!

Team Member:

John Cena (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Toxic/Knock Off
- Spikes

Ferrothorn is an important supporive mon of the Team and a very much needed water and fairy resist.
It´s primary role on the Team is to check the likes of Gengar/Alakazam/Gardevoir/Kyurem-Black, however it also serves as an important switch-in to Azumaril and Gyarados (can break its sub with gyro).
It is furthermore crucial against the rare but dangerous rain matchup.

Spikes is an obvious choice as it has the time and oppertunities to set them up repetetively.
Gyro Ball is the main attacking move packing a huge base power with Ferrothorn´s bad speed.
Toxic is a great move for Ferrothorn. While Knock Off is a move I absolutely love on this particular Team as it lures in SpD Heatran and helps Talonflame sweep tremendously, Toxic doesnt allow setup and beats bulky waters, a huge problem to this team previously.
Leech Seed is Ferrothorn´s main and only recovery move besides Rest. This move is allowing Ferrothorn to 1v1 a lot of stuff it otherwise wouldnt be able to. With the Hoopa-Unbound ban, the meta slowing down a bit, this move is now undoubtable a must-have on Ferrothorn.

Le Diancie (Diancie-Mega) @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 8 Atk / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Protect / Sharpen / Magnet Rise​

Diancie is part of our offensive core (Diancie + Talonflame). It´s unique typing, amazing offensive staats + decent bulk and mixed attacks make diancie a very hard mon to switch into.
Its main job on the team is to deal with flying types in the likes of Talonflame and Tornadus-Therian as well as Sableye wich is a monster in this Meta.
It also breaks Garchomp/Slowbro for Talonflame and can check Manaphy if it runs Scald>Surf and doesnt burn you as scald doesnt OHKO while Moonblast 2HKO´s. A -Def nature is chosen over a -SpD nature due to the fact that I have sand on the team and am able to boost diancie´s SpD to insane levels.

Moonblast is your "auto attack" in the terms of Moba, I see no reason to further explain this.
Diamond Storm, a 100 base power 95% accurate Stone move with the chance to boost your defense. This move is obviously amazing. It is not as much of a must-have as Moonblast as you could techincally run Moonblast/Earth Power/HP fire/Supportive Move but it is absolutely needed on this team, mainly for Talonflame and Tornadus-Therian.
Hidden Power [Fire] is a lower base power Earth Power that makes you slower for hitting steels.. so why run it? Well, our Talonflame runs WoW so having a way to hit Ferrothorn/Scizor stronger is really helpful. I guess moving this to Kyu-B and putting Earth Power on Diancie is an option but we lose the benefit of Teravolt Earth Power for mainly Rotom-W so I think it is not worth it.
Protect is my last move of choice because it gives a free mega evolution (even more free combined with magic bounce) and a nice move to scout for sets / annoy choiced mons (CB Scizor as well as CS Jirachi are worth a special mention here). However this is by no means necesarry and can be replaced with any of the options above.

The Flame (Talonflame) @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Talonflame is the win condition of the team. Its Sword Dance Brave Bird sweep is deadly and I think we all know that. It also has a lot of fun against offense due to its priority Brave Bird.
Since we dont run Flare Blitz for electric types there is little reason to invest in speed since we already outspeed the stuff that we counter (scizor, clefable, venusaur, altaria) and we even outspeed Gyarados by 1 speed point so after I maximized the attack staat the rest went into bulk to be able to take recoil as well as venusaur sludge bomb and charizard y attacks better.
Leftovers was chosen over Sharp Beak since we run bulk and its worth goes up. It also helps sweeping without killing yourself a lot.

Brave Bird .. its Talonflame. (Acro is not worth it on the SD set imo)
Swords Dance is the primary way to win games with this team.
Will-O-Wisp is an amazing move to cripple your counters and u dont even have to touch Garchomp.
Roost is reliable priority recovery, its really standart on non-banded Talonflame.

What song name (Hippowdon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind/Toxic/Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off​

Hippowdon is the secondary mixed Wall that serves as a counter to a lot of problematic mons and part of the teams backbone.
Some examples are Metagross, Manectric, Raikou, Lopunny...
Its other role is to set up Stealth Rock.

Earthquake is your only stab attack and needed for obvious reasons.
Whirlwind is a useful option that adds diversity to the team being able to phaze opposing mons. Other options are useable but keep in mind that your only counter to sd scizor will be talonflame if you dont keep whirlwind.
Stealth Rock ... haha :´)
Slack Off is probably one of the main advantages Hippo has over other defensive grounds (besides not being 4x weak to ice).. acces to reliable recovery.

Starmey (Starmie) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Thunderbolt

Starmie has a very amazing niche in OU. Rapid spin. It does its job and it does it better than anybody else. Besides that it can counter Keldeo (wich is crucial for this team) and has a very good speed tier to spin reliably and pick up weakened pokemon.

Scald is the prefered choice over another water stab since this starmie is defensive and the chance to burn is really strong on bulky waters. It is the best one-attack-"coverage" one can possibly ask for.
Rapid Spin is Starmie´s niche and will always be. There is little reason to run a bulky starmie without Rapid Spin.
Recover gives Starmie a form of reliable recovery making it a very reliable spinner.
Thunderbolt might seem like a strange choice on a bulky Starmie however it is a really solid answer to a lot of problems. Some of the advantages include: breaking Keldeo Substitute, 2hko´ing Volcanion, weakening Manaphy as well as Azumaril if they try to set up and beating opposing Starmies.

Breaking Bones (Kyurem-Black) @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Roost/Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Outrage
- Ice Beam

Kyurem-Black is the hard-hitter of the team. Being able to somewhat handle sableye as well as chansey and breaking balance like no other while also having a really decent matchup against offense is impressive.
The Dragon typing gives Kyu-B some switch-ins despite it having the absolutely horrible defensive ice typing.
It has great support in Starmie and Diancie so its able to unleash its power nicely.
Kyu-B also is our solution to "counter" manaphy (worst case scenario it goes for tail glow where you basically weaken it with outrage as you take the first +3 ice beam enableing Diancie Talonflame and Starmie to revenge kill)

Roost is my prefered choice here due to the amount of pressure Kyu-B can put on some teams and roost increases its longetivity. Also Outrage does about as much damage as a super effective Fusion Bolt so Roost was the prefered choice.
Earth Power .. amazing move, being able to completely blow Rotom-W and Heatran back, two mons Diancie and Talonflame struggle against.
Outrage is my main way to deal with some bulky waters however some prior damage / knock off is needed for slowbro and crocune which by the way are the opponents best shot of beating this team (bulky setup waters)
Ice Beam lets Kyu-B hit a lot of mons it otherwise couldnt and is really powerful boosted with stab.

Threatlist:​

Mega Blastoise. Yea...No.
Threat level: S+

Mega Medicham is a great threat to this team. It deals a sick amount of damage and has acces to double priority. Talonflame and Starmie can somewhat handle it (they are no GSI), however the other member are either destroyed or broken by it.
Threat level: S

Mega Sceptile also identifies itself as a potent threat to this team. Besides blowing apart 4 mons it can break through Ferrothorn with HP Fire and weaken Talonflame with Dragon Pulse.
Threat level: S

Thundurus has always been a threat to balance. Its Nasty Plot set packs a lot of power and sweeping potential. Fortunatly every mon on this Team is able to weaken it, letting it get revenge killed by Starmie or Talonflame.
Threat level: A+

Mega Scizor is probably the best switch-in to this partucular Kyurem-Black. It also annoys Mega Diancie greatly and can set up on a lot of occasions due to its bulk. It´s especially annoying if rocks are up since Talonflame would rather not switch into it in that case. Whirlwind on Hippo greatly helps in this case.
Threat level: A+

Pursuit trapper can disable Starmie wich greatly hinders this teams effektiveness. However, Starmie has acces to scald, making it rather hard for them to directly switch in or Pursuit over their respektive other atk.
Threat level: A+

Suicune, unaffected by Ferrothorn´s Toxic, is the last bulky water threatening his team. However, while not exactly being able to kill it, leech seed + 3 water resists can greatly annoy it. Besides, Kyurem-Black Outrage 2hko´s this thing.
Threat leve: A-

importable

John Cena (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Knock Off
- Spikes

Le Diancie (Diancie-Mega) @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 8 Atk / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Protect

The Flame (Talonflame) @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

What song name (Hippowdon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off

Starmey (Starmie) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Thunderbolt

Breaking Bones (Kyurem-Black) @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Roost
- Earth Power
- Outrage
- Ice Beam

 

[erz]

i dont rly see any weaknesses that just 6 0 ur team or threats which u cant kill somehow. id switch gyro ball to iron head cuz twave slows ur opponent down anyways and gyro wont do much dmg. pretty standard but effecitive, i like it :]

 

[magic_claw93]

Honestly, the only weakness I can find has been addressed by your threatlist which is a bulky water pokemon that can set-up.

I run the standard crocune set with spdef investment instead of def to try to lead with scald and hope for burn hax, otherwise I switch off to a more defensive wall as a switch. Your team has a hard time dealing with crocune once it gets 1 or 2 Calm Minds in which you have to rely completely on Talonflame to deal with the threat.

Calcs

With damage calc, assuming its crocune vs Talonflame:

252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Suicune: 127-150 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

with Swords dance on Talonflame on Suicune:

+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Suicune: 253-298 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

meanwhile you take:

0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 152 HP / 104 SpD Talonflame: 186-222 (55.5 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

or with Calm mind:

+1 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 152 HP / 104 SpD Talonflame: 278-330 (82.9 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

which is guaranteed kill with Bravebird recoil damage.

Note that this is against a spdef invested crocune and not the standard defensive ones (spdef allows me to wall mega-venusaur and megazard y barring crits), so it's going to be tough to handle a crocune.

The biggest counter that I can see is Fusion bolt on Kyurem-B, but since it's running a special set and sometimes you opt for roost, I think you should consider running a stall breaker support pokemon. I personally run a Whimsicott due to its great typing and flexibility with prankster.

Whimsicott

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Encore
- Moonblast

With this set, you can destroy most stall pokes like Chansey/Blissey/Clefable(with a well-timed switch-in + Encore)/Suicune, etc.

This set also deals well with scarf Magnezone, one of your team's other weakness as it can sub to scout the move:

• in case of volt switch, he's forced out into another pokemon
• if flash cannon, you can switch to something like talon flame and get a free swords dance and "threaten" with flare blitz + speed investments or if you're sure about scarf, you can switch to ferrothorn for more set-up

All in all it looks solid and I'd love to play against you with my team someday :)

 

[TPP]

Hey! Really nice team, and I'll try to help out. Only thing I noticed right off the bat, as said above, was the inability to easily defeat bulky water types, especially Mega Slowbro and Suicune. Also, watch out for Focus Blast Thundurus.

I think you could try out Taunt > Will o Wisp, since this allows you to prevent bulky waters from setting up, and that also includes stopping mons like Clefable from spamming T-wave, and it also prevents opposing Garchomp and Heatran from using Stealth Rock. Getting rid of Clefable is gonna be really handy for Kyurem, since trying to kill bulky waters while hoping to avoid paralysis, is pretty stressful. Also, even if you have to sack Talonflame, using Taunt will prevent Slowbro and Suicune from healing up, which makes it much easier to defeat them, or at least force them out.

One option that'll help a lot with Bulky water types, is trying Offensive Starmie > Bulky Starmie. You'll have Thunderbolt as well, which can easily 2HKO Mega Slowbro and Suicune (you'll need SR or prior damage to guarantee the 2HKO). If you try this out, I recommend keeping Recover, as you'll be able to maintain Starmie, and prevent it from killing itself with Life Orb damage. I know Analytic is usually run with the offensive set, but you might be able to pull off maintaining Natural Cure, if you still wanna keep a status absorber. Keeping Natural cure could help, in case a Thundurus/Klefki tries hitting you with T-wave before they get KO'd.

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 257-304 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Fusion Bolt does a little more than Outrage, and being locked in a move, as well as getting confused afterwards, is a bit risky. Being confused makes it harder to kill bulky water types, as you'll need a 2-3HKO, and being confused on either turn gives your opponent a free turn to heal or burn you, and thus makes it impossible to kill them. For those reasons, I think Fusion Bolt > Outrage would be the more beneficial choice with the main intent being killing bulky water types.

That's it for now, let me know if the changes worked out or not, and in the case of the latter, I'll come up with something else. Hope I helped ^_^

 

[Charmflash]

Hey pals!
Thank you for the rate! Now first of all I dont think taunt over wisp isnt a very good change simply because the win condition is Talonflame so weakening rocky helmet garchomp lando-t ttar ect is really important for the Talonflame sweep.
As for Fusion Bolt > Outrage, outrage is needed for fat teams especially for chansey as kyu-b is my primare stallbreaker.
Offensive starmie with 2 attacks recover sounds really fun as I already have hippo for gross, I will actually try that and tell you how it went :]... kind of scared of keldeo though :c

Erz.. I dont even run thunder wave right now, and even if, gyro ball is the overall better choice as you cannot assume your opponent will always be paralyzed. If I manage to paralyze all 6 mons of my opponent hell yeah I´ll take the reduced damage.

Magic claw I have no idea what you are trying to tell me D:

 

[fuzzy]

Hey my friend,

this is a really well-build and thought-out team. I think it's not easy at all to peak that high on the ladder with a balanced team, so congratulations on your success as well!

Looking at your team, i feel like you are a bit weak to more stallish teams and to bulky Water Types (like you said yourself). While the team is really solid as it is, i do however have a bigger change and some smaller ones to suggest.

Have you ever considered running Mega Gardevoir over Mega Diancie? While M-Diancie definitely is a great Mon, i do think that its Rock Typing isn't that beneficial on balanced teams. Flying Types aren't an issue for your main Win Condition, Talonflame, and it adds another Water Weakness. Gardevoir on the other hand gives you a much better way to handle fat teams with Chansey, Quagsire and Amoonguss, stuff like that. You can even run Substitute on it to annoy Offensive teams and dodge a Sucker Punch from Bisharp.

set

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 24 Def / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Taunt/Hidden Power [Fire]/Substitute/Calm Mind

With Gardevoir, you do miss out on outspeeding Manaphy and Keldeo mostly, so i would suggest running Power Whip on Ferrothorn, probably over Knock Off or Leech Seed. A fully special defensive spread helps you take on powerful special Attackers like Mega-Alakazam, Gengar, Mega-Gardevoir or Mega-Diancie and opposing Kyurem-B.

Lately, i've been using a spread of 248 HP / 168 Atk / 76 SpD / 16 Spe (Adamant) on Talonflame, which provides some nice Overall Bulk (avoiding the 3HKO from a +2 Clefables Moonblast after Leftovers 100% of the time) and it still hits really hard after a SD anyways. It also speedcreeps other Talonflames with those EVs.

I really think you should keep Starmie as it is (with Thunderbolt), since an offensive variant dies way to quickly against stuff like Keldeo and Mega-Metagross. It's important to keep this thing healthy, so you can reliably spin throughout the whole match and wall certain threats comfortably. However, you may consider running max Speed on Starmie, even moreso with TB, since it lets you speedtie with opposing Starmie in a pinch and finish them off, as well as outspeeding Choice Scarf Magnezone.

Roost on Kyurem-B seems to be the overall best move in that slot, because you do want to keep it around as long as possible to break some walls for your Sweeper to have a shot at ending the game. It also helps with Electric Types, since you can easily Roost off the damage from Mega-Manectrics and Raikous attacks. Also, you do miss out 4 EVs on Kyurem-B in your RMT. Put those in its Attack Stat

The last thing i'm suggesting, if going with M-Gardevoir over M-Diance, is using a fully physical defensive spread and Stone Edge on Hippowdon, even though it does have its downsides, like being unable to phaze out Mega-Scizor. On a more brighter side it does give you a nice move to hit Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir with. Max Defense also helps with strong physical Attackers like Mega-Metagross, Mega-Charizard X, Mega-Lopunny and Mega-Medicham, which you struggle against quite a bit.

Again, that's a wonderful team. Thanks for sharing it and hopefully some of my ideas work out for you!

Have a nice day

 

[magic_claw93]

Magic claw I have no idea what you are trying to tell me D:

Sorry I guess I wasn't clear enough. I was suggesting you switch out Kyurem-B with a defensive/spdefensive whimsicott as a support and instead run an offensive starmie set to make up for the loss of damage (still running rapid spin of course).

Prankster whimsicott deals with bulky water pokemons you noted easily and can also be used as a scout in unfavorable situations. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Me and ur mom]

Nice team! I understand knock off on ferro helps with tran, but I think power whip would be better here and leech seed as the other move (so set would be power whip,spikes,leech seed,gyro ball) because m-gyra ravages the team otherwise. I would also put stone edge over whirwind on hippowdown. Without that your only offensive talonflame check is diance which gets worn down extremely quickly and takes a ton from +2 BB. I also fail to see how with whirlwind hippo is a SD m-sicz check as all sciz is continually attack it and will just get worn down(correct?). Also if I am wrong it will still beat hippo if its the last mon anyway. Thats all my rate and great team and congrats on the peak!

 

[Charmflash]

Nice team! I understand knock off on ferro helps with tran, but I think power whip would be better here and leech seed as the other move (so set would be power whip,spikes,leech seed,gyro ball) because m-gyra ravages the team otherwise. I would also put stone edge over whirwind on hippowdown. Without that your only offensive talonflame check is diance which gets worn down extremely quickly and takes a ton from +2 BB. I also fail to see how with whirlwind hippo is a SD m-sicz check as all sciz is continually attack it and will just get worn down(correct?). Also if I am wrong it will still beat hippo if its the last mon anyway. Thats all my rate and great team and congrats on the peak!

I know for a fact that I can switch ferro into m-gyara / gyara and keep gyro balling while no matter what he does (sub, eq, dd) after he kills ferro he will be in brave bird range.
Stone Edge on hippo was my original move. I know it is a lot better than whirlwind against talon however I had too much pressure on talonflame without whirlwind hippo because it has to beat clef and mega-scizor With whirlwind hippo I can easily switch him into t-wave clef or bulky-sd-mega-scizor and phaze them out until talonflame is ready to take them on. I didnt say that Hippo checks scizor I just said that it can wall it and phaze it eventually even set up rocks on it (same with clef) Also this hippo still can phase out non taunt talonflame. While not having stone edge on hippo definitly makes my team weaker to talonflame I think that I can deal with it enough as kyurem and starmie also CHECK talonflame while diancie COUNTERS all non-steel wing and non banded talonflame (wich gets countered by hippo).

 

[Charmflash]

Hello fuzzy!
Thank you for your very in-depth analyses of my team! All of your suggestions were really interesting but I think you have overseen some points that you could only have realized if you played the team A LOT (like I did :P) I will be going over them one by one.

Have you ever considered running Mega Gardevoir over Mega Diancie? While M-Diancie definitely is a great Mon, i do think that its Rock Typing isn't that beneficial on balanced teams. Flying Types aren't an issue for your main Win Condition, Talonflame, and it adds another Water Weakness. Gardevoir on the other hand gives you a much better way to handle fat teams with Chansey, Quagsire and Amoonguss, stuff like that. You can even run Substitute on it to annoy Offensive teams and dodge a Sucker Punch from Bisharp.

At first let me disagree with you on one point "i do think that its Rock Typing isn't that beneficial on balanced teams". This is not really true to be honest. Its rock typing gives it a flying resist wich is very hard to archieve on balanced teams bar electric types! Torn-T and Talonflame are huge issues in this meta and they are no exception for this team.

I do think that mega-gardevoir is an amazing mon this meta. It has amazing versitility and a lot of good matchups especially being able to smack stall and balance. The biggest problem I can see with this change is that it REQUIRES hippo to run stone edge. Thus it leaves us with the scizor problem again. Talonflame DOES NOT want to switch into scizor if rocks are up! so basically if rocks are up (wich is also easier to archieve without a magic bouncer) there is nothing I can do against scizor.
The second problem problem is not being able to switch into torn-t at all wich is also not really desireable.
Overall I think if I desire to run gardevoir over diancie I would have to make a lot more changes and diancie has been working really nice for me (has a decent matchup against stall too) so I see no need for this change on this team. I might make a team with gardevoir in the future (maybe u´d like to help me? :]) because I love that mon but I won´t change it on this team.

A fully special defensive spread helps you take on powerful special Attackers like Mega-Alakazam, Gengar, Mega-Gardevoir or Mega-Diancie and opposing Kyurem-B.

I fail to see how this helps me against 4 of those 5 mon. If I manage to switch in Ferrothorn into Psychic/Shadow Ball/Hyper Voice/Moonblast respectively I can take the next Focus Blast/Focus Blast/Focus Blast/HP Fire and ohko back. If they go for the 2nd move on the switch-in its a 2hko no matter how much spd I am running (only exception is Kyu-B he actually 2hko´s with ice beam + hp fire but hp fire can somewhat be scouted with a diancie switch-in..(rock typing resistances getting use again *o*)).

Lately, i've been using a spread of 248 HP / 168 Atk / 76 SpD / 16 Spe (Adamant) on Talonflame, which provides some nice Overall Bulk (avoiding the 3HKO from a +2 Clefables Moonblast after Leftovers 100% of the time) and it still hits really hard after a SD anyways. It also speedcreeps other Talonflames with those EVs.

This looks like a really interesting change. I have been disliking the fact that I always get outspeed by other Talonflame so now at least I have a chance of outspeeding. The bonus bulk comes in handy too while BB still gets the necesarry ko´s.

I really think you should keep Starmie as it is (with Thunderbolt), since an offensive variant dies way to quickly against stuff like Keldeo and Mega-Metagross. It's important to keep this thing healthy, so you can reliably spin throughout the whole match and wall certain threats comfortably. However, you may consider runningmax Speed on Starmie, even moreso with TB, since it lets you speedtie with opposing Starmie in a pinch and finish them off, as well as outspeeding Choice Scarf Magnezone.

You´re right that an offensive variant dies faster against keldeo/metagross but it also puts much more pressure on the opponent. I didnt get to test it yet but in theory it should be a viable alternative as it doesnt 100% counter keldeo anymore but it threatens it out every time and worst case I can just heal up. Not sure about how I want to run starmie its the second serious team I have run starmie on so I need more practice :p

Roost on Kyurem-B seems to be the overall best move in that slot, because you do want to keep it around as long as possible to break some walls for your Sweeper to have a shot at ending the game. It also helps with Electric Types, since you can easily Roost off the damage from Mega-Manectrics and Raikous attacks. Also, you domiss out 4 EVs on Kyurem-B in your RMT. Put those in its Attack Stat

I agree. Oh and I put the 4 EV´s in atk not sure why I missed on that ^^

Thanks for the rate again and have a nice day =)

 

[Charmflash]

Sorry I guess I wasn't clear enough. I was suggesting you switch out Kyurem-B with a defensive/spdefensive whimsicott as a support and instead run an offensive starmie set to make up for the loss of damage (still running rapid spin of course).

Prankster whimsicott deals with bulky water pokemons you noted easily and can also be used as a scout in unfavorable situations. Let me know if you have any questions.

To be honest I´d prefer keeping kyu over whimsicott as outrage also kind of deals with some bulky waters and kyu is more useful overall because it beats much more stuff that trouble talonflame/diancie than whimsicott.

 

[fuzzy]

At first let me disagree with you on one point "i do think that its Rock Typing isn't that beneficial on balanced teams". This is not really true to be honest. Its rock typing gives it a flying resist wich is very hard to archieve on balanced teams bar electric types! Torn-T and Talonflame are huge issues in this meta and they are no exception for this team.

I do think that mega-gardevoir is an amazing mon this meta. It has amazing versitility and a lot of good matchups especially being able to smack stall and balance. The biggest problem I can see with this change is that it REQUIRES hippo to run stone edge. Thus it leaves us with the scizor problem again. Talonflame DOES NOT want to switch into scizor if rocks are up! so basically if rocks are up (wich is also easier to archieve without a magic bouncer) there is nothing I can do against scizor.
The second problem problem is not being able to switch into torn-t at all wich is also not really desireable.
Overall I think if I desire to run gardevoir over diancie I would have to make a lot more changes and diancie has been working really nice for me (has a decent matchup against stall too) so I see no need for this change on this team. I might make a team with gardevoir in the future (maybe u´d like to help me? :]) because I love that mon but I won´t change it on this team.

I see, thanks for the informative response.

The thing is that i recently build a team quite similiar to yours (M-Diancie/Ferrothorn/Talonflame/Starmie/Garchomp/Dragonite). Garchomp and Dragonite weren't working to good on this build, because they left me weak to Stall and Offensive alike. My suggestion of replacing M-Diancie with M-Gardevoir comes from the experience gained while using the team, however with Hippowdon and Kyurem-B you do cover these playstyles much better. So you are probably right about sticking with Diancie.

Shoot me a VM when you are building a new team and i'll try to help you!

Have a nice day

 

[Charmflash]

One option that'll help a lot with Bulky water types, is trying Offensive Starmie > Bulky Starmie. You'll have Thunderbolt as well, which can easily 2HKO Mega Slowbro and Suicune (you'll need SR or prior damage to guarantee the 2HKO). If you try this out, I recommend keeping Recover, as you'll be able to maintain Starmie, and prevent it from killing itself with Life Orb damage. I know Analytic is usually run with the offensive set, but you might be able to pull off maintaining Natural Cure, if you still wanna keep a status absorber. Keeping Natural cure could help, in case a Thundurus/Klefki tries hitting you with T-wave before they get KO'd.

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 257-304 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hi pals!
After some intensive testing I decided to keep bulky starmie.
While offensive starmie was actually really decent and somewhat helped with bulky waters BEFORE they boosted, keldeo put too much pressure on my team wich is why I decided to keep starmie bulky.

 

[ThisIsTheCorrectWayToDoIt]

Hey man great team, I would suggest running Hydreigon > Kyurm-B tho because the dark stab is really helpful and it has a much better matchup against scizor which your team struggles against.

 

[Okita Souji s1]

Konbanwa Toshirou-san~

O-genki desu ka?

Ok now that I got my mandatory Japanese out of the way, let's get to the point.

I like this team a lot, and I intend to use it a little bit, but I have a couple of concerns that I'd like to get your opinion on.

First of all, I think Hidden Power Fire on Mega Diancie is not the optimal choice. First of all, it lowers your speed to 349, which sucks, because 350 speed speed ties many Pokemon, and I think it's worth having that chance. Mostly because Hidden Power Fire doesn't do nearly enough on Ferrothorn, so you have to nail it on the switch, and considering how important Mega Diancie is for your offensive presence, I don't think it's worth doing these predictions - predict wrong, and your Mega Diancie is dead, because it cannot take hits. If you're going to predict a Scizor coming in, you might as well just double to your Talonflame instead of risking the wrong prediction with your Mega Diancie, shootin off Hidden Power Fire - and the opponent stays in and kills you. Same with Ferrothorn - might as well double into Talonflame and use the Ferrothorn for setup fodder.

Second of all, I think Sharp Beak is more important on this type of Talonflame. If you were running the specially defensive utility Talonflame with Brave Bird, Roost, Taunt and Will-o-Wisp, Leftovers would be better. Same goes for the Bulk Up Talonflame, because that type of Talonflame needs 2-3 Bulk Ups to set up properly, and needs Leftovers recovery in the meantime. This Talonflame however, only has to set up one Swords Dance, so Leftovers don't help that much - whereas Sharp Beak makes a number of 2HKOs into an OHKO and a number of 3HKOs into a 2HKO.

That's pretty much it - I like the team a lot, and will use it, but I'm contemplating making the above two changes, and I wanted your opinion on it as well.

Have a good day.

Dewa mata ~

P.S. I suggest you put your Starmie's attack IVs to 0 to lower Foul Play damage and confusion recoil.

 

[Charmflash]

Hi Okita Souji s1

First of all thank u for the rate!

1. "Second of all, I think Sharp Beak is more important on this type of Talonflame" While sharp Beak does increase your damage it is used more to oneshot electric/rock types after one SD boost and hazard damage. Hippowdown handles both of those so leaftovers increases your oppertunities to set up as well as your chances to sweep as the recoil would kill you much easier without :]
2. HP Fire Diancie.. HP fire diancie is less wallable than epower and since talonflame doesnt have flare blitz I think that this fire move is necesarry on this team :]
3. Starmies attack IV´s lowered.

 

[Scotti]

Hey cool team, but there are a few things that I think could be better. Firstly, even though you have fusion bolt slashed, it should be your 1st choice imo. Your weakness to bulky water is pretty big and you definitely have to be running fusion bolt no matter what. Personally I would change your kyu-b spread to this.
192 spe | 252 atk | 64 spatk Lonely Nature. In all honestly I recommend this spread, so you can 2hko skarmory, suicune ,and mega slowbro with fusion bolt, which are big threats to your team. You can also ohko both manaphy and azumarill which is a huge threat to your team, which is a huge bonus. Another change is maybe run Dragon Claw > Outrage. By running this spread, after rocks you 2hko chansey or you could keep outrage if you just want to smack the shit out of it. These changes help completely destroy goth stall teams, which are a pain in the ass and it just seems to benefit you imo.

With the change above you are probably less weak to bulky water types, so I would recommend running psyshock over tbolt on starmie. As of right now your practically gets destroyed by gengar. It puts soo much pressure on your team that it would be a pain to face. Even though you have hippo which avoid the 2hko, you have to spam slack off after switching in and gengar can taunt whenever. Not only that, but if the opponent gets a spdef drop you are practically fucked.

Overall nice team, I have seen a lot of your rmt's and there are pretty solid. Keep up the good work :]

 

[Charmflash]

Hey cool team, but there are a few things that I think could be better. Firstly, even though you have fusion bolt slashed, it should be your 1st choice imo. Your weakness to bulky water is pretty big and you definitely have to be running fusion bolt no matter what. Personally I would change your kyu-b spread to this.
192 spe | 252 atk | 64 spatk Lonely Nature. In all honestly I recommend this spread, so you can 2hko skarmory, suicune ,and mega slowbro with fusion bolt, which are big threats to your team. You can also ohko both manaphy and azumarill which is a huge threat to your team, which is a huge bonus. Another change is maybe run Dragon Claw > Outrage. By running this spread, after rocks you 2hko chansey or you could keep outrage if you just want to smack the shit out of it. These changes help completely destroy goth stall teams, which are a pain in the ass and it just seems to benefit you imo.

With the change above you are probably less weak to bulky water types, so I would recommend running psyshock over tbolt on starmie. As of right now your practically gets destroyed by gengar. It puts soo much pressure on your team that it would be a pain to face. Even though you have hippo which avoid the 2hko, you have to spam slack off after switching in and gengar can taunt whenever. Not only that, but if the opponent gets a spdef drop you are practically fucked.

Overall nice team, I have seen a lot of your rmt's and there are pretty solid. Keep up the good work :]

Hi Scotti and ty for your reply. Outrage > DClaw was there for chansey and SabGothStall in generall but since the ou community decided to get rid of that I dont know if its needed anymore I guess testing is needed.

 

[Charmflash]

Due to the change in meta and myself tweaking the team I find it necesarry to update this thread.
UPDATE: Ferrothorn set & description update. Diancie set update. Starmie set & description update. Threatlist updated.