Other Tiers Differences between Gen2 Poké-Cup and Gen2 OU strategies

[chio]

Hello.
I'm chio who belongs to the Japanese Gen2 community.
I have been studying Gen2 Poké-Cup(Nintendo Cup 2000) for almost 20 years, and I usually play at Japanese online simulator.
The people of Smogon are kind to me, so I would like to provide an article as well.

1. Introduction
   A few days ago I tried several Gen2 OU games with Showdown.
   And, I realized that there was a big difference between Poké-Cup and OU.
   I would like to note the difference.
   
   
2. What is Poké-Cup?
   The rules for Poké-Cup are described below link.
   https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Rule_variants#Nintendo_Cup_2000
   
   In addition, it should be noted that:
   -Beforehand, Enter 6 pokémons, and show for opponents about 6 pokémons species.
   (Strictly writing, the level, the presence or absence of held items and the gender are also shown to each other. But, players will not show the name of the held item.)
   -After showing each other the species, select 3 pokémons and battle with them. At this time, the total level of 3 pokémons must be within 155.
   -Duplication of species in the team(6 pokémons) is not allowed.
   -Duplication of held item in the team is not allowed.
   -The move that pokémon learn are based on the Japanese version of Rom.
   -learning OHKO moves is not allowed.(This clause is minor rules in the Japanese Gen2 community.)
   
   
3. What is the biggest difference?
   First of all, you will be attracted to the difference in the level of pokémon you use.
   In fact, this difference is not small.
   The damage rates are slightly different, and, there are many things players need to remember due to wide range of pokémon levels to use.
   However, this is not an essential difference, only the statistics handled are different.
   
   Also, you may be wondering what the difference is between the Japanese version of Rom and the English version of Rom.
   The difference in the Pokemon distributed at the event, and in terms of the impact, with the following differences:
   -"Eevee" and its evolved species who learns "Growth" is not allowed in Poké-Cup.
   -"Snorlax" who learns "Lovely Kiss" is not allowed in Poké-Cup.
   -"Nidoking" who learns "Lovely Kiss" is not allowed in Poké-Cup.
   -"Misdreavus" who learns "Hypnosis" is not allowed in Poké-Cup.
   -"Donphan" who learns "Encore" is allowed in Poké-Cup.
   There are not a small difference, but neither of them fundamentally changes the metagames.
   
   Prohibition of duplicate held items? It's a small difference.
   
   The biggest difference is to show species in advance and to fight with 3 pokémons.
   
   By the way, I like defensive teams with the minimum of attack methods to break the defense of the opponent.
   Such a team will bring a stable victory to mediocre players, and will be able to compete evenly with elite players.
   I've read through the articles on the forums, and I think they agree on that.
   
   The presence or absence of show-off species, and the difference in the number of pokémons fighting, have a fundamental influence on the policy when equipping the minimum attack methods.
   
   
4. policy of equipping the minimum attack methods in Poké-Cup
   In Poké-Cup, fight with only 3 pokémons.
   However, you can't recognize which 3 of the 6 opponents to choose.
   Therefore, it is difficult to satisfy defense coverage.
   Taking advantage of the difficulty of satisfying defense coverage, even a defensive pokémon can beat the opponent.
   
   Let me give you an example.
   
   It is assumed that the opponents are as follows:
   -Snorlax(Double-Edge/Earthquake/Curse/Rest/Leftovers)
   -Starmie(Surf/Reflect/Rapid Spin/Recover/Bright Powder)
   -Skarmory(Drill Peck/Curse/Whirlwind/Rest/Mint Berry)
   These are 3 very defensive pokémons.
   
   However, it can be beaten with the following 2 defensive pokémons:
   -Misdreavus(Mean Look/Perish Song/Thunder/Destiny Bond/Miracle Berry)
   -Zapdos(Thunder/Hidden Power Ice/Sleep Talk/Rest/Scope Lens)
   
   The first procedure is to roll out Misdreavus, use Thunder, force a Switch to Snorlax by that.
   (Starmie and Skarmory can not endule Thunder.)
   The next procedure is to catch Snorlax with Mean Look.
   That way, you can KO Snorlax and Misdreavus to each other with a Perish Song or Destiny Bond.
   The remaining Starmie and Skarmory can be KO by Zapdos.
   
   As you can see, satisfy defense coverage is difficult with Poké-Cup.
   In order to beat the opponent, it is important to look at the opponent 6 pokémon's species, anticipate the combination of opponent 3 pokémons, and think about the procedure to beat.
   
   By the way, Spikes are also strong in Poké-Cup, but not as dominant as it in OU.
   There is also a fact that the number of switches is small in the battle of only 3 pokémon, but there is bigger fact that choosing Cloyster and/or Forretress makes it difficult to satisfy defense coverage.
   For example, if you choosing Cloyster and/or Forretress, defense coverage can't be satisfy when opponent choice a combination of Zapdos, Machamp, and Tyranitar(learned Crunch).
   The fact that Spikes can be taken countermeasures without Rapid Spin is a big difference from OU.
   
   Perhaps, the OU will be the same after the number of pokémons living with each other has decreased.
   There is definitely the difference that you can't make the correct procedure before the battle.
   
   
5. policy of equipping the minimum attack methods in OU
   The OU does not notify the other party's 6 pokémons species in advance.
   This fact made me very puzzled.
   This is because I can't know the species of opponents until it is actually switched, and I can't make an appropriate procedure.
   
   Let me give you an example.
   
   It is assumed that the you are as follows:
   -Forretress(Spikes/Rapid Spin/Giga Drain/Explosion/Leftovers)
   -Raikou(Thunderbolt/Hidden Power Ice/Roar/Rest/Leftovers)
   -Suicune(Surf/Ice Beam/Sleep Talk/Rest/Leftovers)
   -Snorlax(Double-Edge/Earthquake/Curse/Rest/Leftovers)(unrevealed)
   -Gengar(Thunderbolt/Ice Punch/Explosion/Destiny Bond/Leftovers)(unrevealed)
   -Espeon(Psychic/Hidden Power Fire/Growth/Morning Sun/Leftovers)(unrevealed)
   
   And, It is assumed that the opponent is as follows:
   -Cloyster
   -Zapdos(revealed Thunder Wave)
   -Steelix
   -(unrevealed)
   -(unrevealed)
   -(unrevealed)
   
   If your Raikou and opponent's Steerix face each other, it's the correct procedure for you to switch to Suicune.
   And even if you get a flow like "you switch to Suicune, opponent's Steelix use Curse -> your Suicune use Surf(opponent's Steelix will endure it), opponent's Steelix use Explosion(your Suicune and opponent's Steelix KO each other)", in many cases you have done the correct procedure.
   However, if one of the opponent's unrevealed pokémons is Quagsire(learned Belly Drum), this is not a correct procedure.
   In this case, the right decision was to anticipate using Explosion and switch to Forretress.
   (It is possible to switch to Gengar, but if opponent is using Earthquake instead of using Explosion, it is irreversible.)
   
   In this way, even if it is naturally satisfied defense coverage, it may not be possible to satisfy defense coverage because the opponent's pokémon's species are unrevealed, even using defensive pokémon.
   This is often brought about by Explosion, Self-Destruct, and combo of "Mean Look + Perish Song + Destiny Bond".
   
   I thought that bypassing the countermeasures is the most reliable way to keep satisfied defense coverage.
   In the previous example, if you use Exeggutor(Sleep Powder/Psychic/Giga Drain/Explosion/Leftovers) instead of Espeon, you can take countermeasure to Quagsire with Exeggutor.
   However, it is probably difficult to bypass the countermeasures against all potential enemies.
   So, depending on the metagame, you need to choose the mainly potential enemies to bypass the countermeasures.
   
   By the way, the difficulty of species being unrevealed is the same for the opponent, and I thought that if some species are unrevealed, it would be possible to beat the opponent with fewer attack methods.
   When using defensive teams, I thought it was important to induce the opponent's incorrect preocedure by not revealing species until later.
   
   
6. Conclusions
   I wrote the following:
   -In Poké-Cup, showing for opponents about 6 pokémons species, and choosing pokémons 6 to 3. That is the biggest difference from OU.
   -Due to this difference, satisfied defense coverage is difficult with Poké-Cup. Even defensive pokémon can beat defensive opponents, and Spikes are easyier to be taken countermeasures than OU.
   -However, even in OU, there is a difficulty that species are not unrevealed before battle. Due to this, it is possible that defensive pokémon beat defensive opponents. As a defender, it is important to do bypassing the countermeasures.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

Hi, in Smogon we have a "similar" format called "Overused with Item Clause and Team preview", it is played now and then mostly in small tournaments and friendles, here is an example of how it looks like: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1268457150-6g9a1ch5qapcojfrz0dad0jnr51avawpw

We also played friendlies of Nintendo Cup 2000 last summer, we had fun, but we ended up banning Evasion, One Hit KO Moves and Sleep+Perish Song+Trapping moves in the same pokémon to make the game more fair. It is not an official ban yet, it is more of an agreement when top players play. We also allow New York City Moves and moves that came out with Pokémon Crystal and Pokémon Stadium 2.

We can play Nintendo Cup 2000 whenever you like, we can ban New York and Japanese moves if you like to make the games more fair for both parties if you want.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

Nintendo Cup 2000/Gen 2 Poké Cup suggested ruleset

This is the suggested ruleset that the Smogon and the Japanese Gen 2 Poké Cup communities have built for matches of the format that take place in the Pokémon Showdown simulator:

Gen 2 Poké Cup Suggested Ruleset

-Enter with six pokémon

-Species Clause

-Level restrictions: All of your pokemon must be between levels 50-55.

-Uber pokémon are banned

-You can't have pokémon that have the name of other species, e.g. a Snorlax called Electrode

-Item Clause

-Evasion Moves are banned unless the TO/players agree to allow them

-One Hit KO Moves are banned unless the TO/players agree to allow them

-It is banned to have one or more pokémon with these moves in the same set: A Trapping Move and a move that causes Sleep in the opponent.

-Event Moves from New York and Japan are banned, this includes those that are common in both regions like Sing Pikachu or Ancient Power Venusaur; however, Event Moves can be allowed if the players/TOs agree to it.

-All the moves that are not banned are allowed: This includes moves that were released in Pokémon Crystal like Spikes Cloyster and moves that were released in Pokémon Stadium 2 like Earthquake Gligar.

-Team Preview is enforced, even if you play in cartridge

-In Team Preview you have to reveal the name or names of the pokemon that don't have items. Finally, you also have to reveal the gender of your pokémon

-Choose three out of six pokémon: Battles are of 3 VS 3.

-The sum limit of the three chosen pokémon must be between 150 and 155

-Match time limit: The TO/players can enforce a time limit of up to 90 minutes. In the case of simulators, they can use a turn limit of up to 90 instead.

-Selection time limit: The TO/players can enforce a time limit for selecting actions of up to 1 minute and 30 seconds.

-Pokémon Stadium 2's Sleep Clause: Pokémon that use Rest activate Sleep Clause; however, players can use Rest even if they already have another pokémon sleeping.

-In Pokémon Gold, Silver and Crystal, Freeze Clause is not enforced; however, in Pokémon Stadium 2 it is always enforced.

-Self KO Clause for Pokémon Gold, Silver and Crystal: If your last pokémon uses Self-Destruct or Explosion, you lose; on the other hand, if your last pokémon uses Destiny Bond or Perish Song and dies due to the effect of one of those moves, you also lose (it doesn't matter if you don't have more PPs for another move).

-Self KO Clause for Pokémon Stadium 2: If your last pokémon uses Self-Destruct or Explosion, you lose; on the other hand, Destiny Bond and Perish Song always fail when they're used by your last pokémon.

-Recoil Moves Clause: If both players' last pokémon faints due to a Recoil move, then the win is given to the player whose pokémon used the move.

-If the time of the match ends during the attacking phase, the actions of that phase will still be taken into account to determine the match results

-If the time of the match ends during the selecting action phase, the players still will be able to decide their last action and the results of the next attacking phase will still be taken into account to decide the match results

-If the time of the match ends when a player is changing pokémon via Batton Pass, he will still be able to change his pokémon and the results of that action phase will still be taken into account to determine the match results

-Tiebraker criteria: If the match reaches its time/turn limit the winner will be decided using these criteria in the following order: number of remaining pokémon, sum of Hit Points percentages of the remaining pokémon. The player that has the highest number will win.

-What happens when there's a draw: If after applying the tiebraker criteria the draw persists, the TO/players will decide the action they consider more convenient, e.g.: keeping the draw, repeating the match or choosing the winner using a random game (tossing a coin, throwing dices, using a command, etc.).

Please take into account that these rules can be changed if the Tournament Organizers or players agree to it, e.g., in Japan there were some Poké Cup matches with Uber Pokémon allowed in 2000 (here's a video of one of those matches: link).

 

[chio]

Thank you for the wonderful post!

Let me check one.

-In the International Gen 2 Poké Cup it is banned to have a pokémon with two of these moves in the same set: a trapping move, a move that causes Sleep in the opponent, Perish Song.

This is different from my recognition.
In my recognition, the combination of a trapping move and Perish Song is an acceptable. The combination of a move that causes Sleep in the opponent and Perish Song is also that.
That's because the OU rules allow it.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/gs/formats/ou/

If this is banned, the impact is great.
In particular, if the combination of Mean Look and Perish Song is prohibited, it will be difficult for Misdreavus and Gengar taking countermeasure to Snorlax, therefore Snorlax will become stronger and stronger.

By the way, in the Japanese version, Misdreavus can not learn Hypnosis.
In my recognition, Sleep Trap Clause was created because Misdreavus's combination of Hypnosis and Mean Look makes the luck factor too strong.
Perhaps, the application of the Sleep Trap Clause is controversial, if Hypnosis by Misdreavus is banned because it is only distributed at the New York City Pokémon Center.
(In Japanese Community, Sleep Trap Clause does not exist.)

 

[chio]

I provide information from a different perspective.
I show you the tear list and the usage statistics of NC2000 in the Japanese Community.

Tear list:
https://seesaawiki.jp/pbs-thread/d/Tear list in Nintendo Cup 2000　(Written by me)
https://majinjima.ma-jide.com/pictures/poke/rank14.html　(Written by CH)

Usage statistics:
https://seesaawiki.jp/pbs-thread/d/Usage statistics of Petit Dragon Summer Cup in 2020

The following points are supplemented:
-In my opinion, as I wrote earlier, NC2000 isn't as strong as OU about Spikes.
-In the Japanese version, Vaporeon, Jolteon, and Espeon are greatly weakened because they do not learn Growth.
-Some species rely heavily on the unique damage rate of the NC2000 level clause. For example, Alakazam, Moltres, Miltank, Kangaskhan, Tauros and Entei.
-Due to the level clause, Tyranitar and Dragonite can only be used at level 55. Therefore, the usage rate tends to be low.
-In Japanese community, even low-rank species are being researched for unique strengths. Therefore, even low rank species are often used in tournament.
-I think you wonder why Venusaur is highly regarded. In one word, it is highly evaluated because it is strong in the face with the commonly used species. It may be strong even in OU. I will write more details later.
-Although it is hard to see in the data, strategies using Swagger or Attract are developing in Japanese community. For example, Zapdos uses Swagger, Alakazam uses Attract, and more. This can also be strong in the OU. I will write this later.

 

[zalarye]

3v3 formats are rarely played by English speakers and most of them don't know that they exist in generations 1 and 2. I've played NC97 with several people, but I've only seen 2 people other than myself play NC2000 on Showdown. If you talk with GSC OU players in Showdown's Ruins of Alph chatroom, consider introducing NC2000 to them. They love to explore new metagames and would definitely enjoy it, and maybe a community can form around it.

 

[cherryb0ng]

This sounds like a lot of fun. I would be happy to host the tour, either asking Smogon staff or simply on the discord server Reece and I run.

Let me give you an example.

It is assumed that the you are as follows:
-Forretress(Spikes/Rapid Spin/Giga Drain/Explosion/Leftovers)
-Raikou(Thunderbolt/Hidden Power Ice/Roar/Rest/Leftovers)
-Suicune(Surf/Ice Beam/Sleep Talk/Rest/Leftovers)
-Snorlax(Double-Edge/Earthquake/Curse/Rest/Leftovers)(unrevealed)
-Gengar(Thunderbolt/Ice Punch/Explosion/Destiny Bond/Leftovers)(unrevealed)
-Espeon(Psychic/Hidden Power Fire/Growth/Morning Sun/Leftovers)(unrevealed)

I thought that you can only have a team with no duplicate items. Leftovers not being allowed on more than 1 pokemon hasn't been my cup of tea but I guess that can be cool.

 

[chio]

Perhaps, the application of the Sleep Trap Clause is controversial, if Hypnosis by Misdreavus is banned because it is only distributed at the New York City Pokémon Center.
(In Japanese Community, Sleep Trap Clause does not exist.)

I forgot something important.
Sleep trun is 1-4 turns in the Japanese simulator.
(Supplement:1-6 turns in GB/VC. 1-3 turns in Pokémon Studium 2. (In my recognition) 1-6 turns in Showdown.)

Even in the Japanese version, Gengar can use Mean Look, Perish Song and Hypnosis together.
However, the lack of sleep turns did not make it a valuable strategie.
If opponent don't sleep for more than 4 turns, Phazer will not faint.

In Showdown, the probability of sleeping for 4 turns or more is 2 times that of the Japanese simulator.
I think we should apply the Sleep Trap Clause if we play with the Showdown.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

chio I'm glad you liked my posts, let me answer some of your questions. It is allowed for a pokémon to have Perish Song and a trapping move like Mean Look in the same set in OU and in the International Gen 2 Poké Cup, so don't worry. What is banned is that a pokémon has Perish Song, Mean Look and Hypnosis in the same set, this rule needs to still exist in the International scene, otherwise Misdreavus or Spore Smeargle would be broken. I made a mistake when I explained that rule because I said that it was banned to have two of those moves, when, in reality, what was banned was to have the three moves in the same set, I already corrected that mistake in the suggested ruleset.

The other part is also very important, the simulator you and your friends use seems to be based on Pokémon Stadium 2 (or Pokémon Stadium Gold and Silver as you know it in Japan (ポケモンスタジアム 金銀)), there, the Sleep status lasts between 1 and 4 turns; however, if you play Poké Cup in Gold, Silver or Crystal, the status lasts between 1 and 7 turns. Unfortunately we don't have a simulator for Stadium Gold and Silver in Smogon yet, but I'd be happy if we had one because I love that game to death and I prefer its mechanics.

When my friends and I play Pika Cup (イエローカップ) we use its three mechanics: Red/Green, Yellow and Stadium 1(or Stadium 2 mechanics as you know them in Japan); the point is that if we had Gen 2 Poké Cup matches, we'd also use both mechanics: Gold/Silver/Crystal and Stadium 2 (or Stadium Gold and Silver as you call them in Japan).

Finally, the minimum thing that we need to have tournaments in Showdown is five sample teams, players are very busy and if they don't have sample teams they don't participate in tournaments, this is something that I've seen with other formats in Gen 1 like Pika Cup and Petit Cup (ファンシーカップ): as soon as we built sample teams for them, it was easy to host tournaments for them.

 

[chio]

Beelzemon 2003
Thank you! I confirmed the modification of the rule.
Many NC2000 teams have been created in Japan. It is possible to pick up 5 teams suitable for the sample, so please tell me if necessary.

 

[chio]

I report one.

Regarding the rules of NC2000, the following description was inaccurate.

-Beforehand, Enter 6 pokémons, and show for opponents about 6 pokémons species.

The following supplements have been written.

(Strictly writing, the level and the presence or absence of held items are also shown to each other. But, players will not show the name of the held item.)

It can be difficult to understand in writing. If necessary, please watch the match video below.

 

[Shellnuts]

Hello there, so a while back I was looking into NC2000 and after some research, was able to find a list of sample teams here. I then spent the next couple of hours converting nearly all of the samples on that list into a PokePaste format which Showdown uses linked here. Some of the teams I have my reservations about but due to my lack of experience, I will defer to those who have played the tier more for judgement on which ones should be used. If these teams are out of date or if there are better samples you would recommend which better represent the current metagame, please let me know.

 

[chio]

Shellnuts
All of these teams are more than a year behind the latest trends, but they are all excellent teams that have a proven record and are highly regarded by Japanese players.
I think it is suitable as a sample team because of its reliability.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

@chio Here in Mexico we had a similar event like the Poké Cup in 2002, we used level 60 pokémon, though, also, the rules explicitly said that moves from the New York City and Japanese Pokémon Centers were banned. It was an event officially organized by Nintendo, here is the poster:

Ah yes, there was also a Super Smash Bros. Melee tournament on that event, those were good times.

 

[chio]

Beelzemon 2003
Thank you for information!
I didn't know the existence of this tournament.
When we play Poké Cup, it seems better to ban moves from the New York City Pokémon Centers or the Japanese Pokémon Centers.

 

[chio]

I made you wait.
I provide supplementary information about the NC2000 metagame in Japan.

1. Venusaur
   The base moveset is Sleep Powder/Leech Seed/Razor Leaf/Synthesis.
   (Held item does not matter.)
   
   Venusaur is a good species to defend against Machamp and Ground type species.
   (However, the reliability against Marowak is not high.)
   But if that's all, other species, such as Starmie, are fine.
   
   The real strength of Venusaur is its ability to compete face-to-face against commonly used species.
   When Venusaur is face-to-face against commonly used species, you can safely switch to another pokémon, or defeat it if you are lucky.
   This feature is brought by Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, resist Toxic, none 4x weekpoints, and Venusaur's high statistics.
   
   Let's see as follows:
   -vs Snorlax: Sleep Powder and Leech Seed can greatly weaken Snorlax. Then you can safely switch to Snorlax (in mirror match). In some cases, you can switch to Zapdos/Raikou/etc and beat Snorlax. Venusaur can also defeat opponent Snorlax if opponent Snorlax didn't learn Rest (In such case, both will be fainted by Self-Destruct). Needless to say, Snorlax is the number one threat in NC2000, so the significance of being able to compete against Snorlax is great.
   -vs Cloyster: Cloyster can do almost nothing against Venusaur. You can prompt a suddenly switch to opponent. Cloyster is one of the threats next to Snorlax, and it means that it is strong against Cloyster.
   -vs Zapdos, Raikou: If opponent's Zapdos is a general moveset(Thunder(Thunderbolt)/Hidden Power Ice/Whirlwind(Roar)/Rest), Venusaur can also compete against Zapdos. Venusaur can't beat Zapdos, but Zapdos is also difficult to beat Venusaur. So, you can set Leech Seed and SLP against Zapdos. After that, you can safely switch to Snorlax. Raikou is the same as Zapdos. These species are one of the threats next to Snorlax, and that meaning is great too.
   -vs Tyranitar: In the face-to-face state, Venusaur usually does not lose.
   -vs Water type species: The most threats is Suicune(Surf/Toxic/Roar/Rest) with the support of Spikes. You can set Leech Seed and SLP against such Suicune, and you can even defeat it. It may be weak against some Water type pokémon, but in that case you should be able to safely switch to Snorlax or Raikou. The exception is Starmie, which uses Psychic, Confuse Ray and Substitute together, but you can break the Substitute by Venusaur's Razor Leaf, so you can have minimal resistance.
   -vs Skarmory: In the face-to-face state, Venusaur can withstand several turns by using Sleep Powder and/or Leech Seed. Weakening Skarmory makes it easier to beat with Machamp and Marowak.
   -vs Umbreon: Venusaur can withstand most Umbreon attacks and stop Umbreon's function. However, if opponent Umbreon's moveset includes Mean Look and Baton Pass, it is dangerous. It is better to counter with Venusaur after you can guess the opponent Umbreon's moveset.
   -vs Forretress: Spikes will be used. However, if the opponent's Forretress is your Snorlax countermeasure, Venusaur will pressure against Forretress.
   -vs Heracross: For Heracross, it is possible to set SLP or Leech Seed. Trying to do more than that can be dangerous. Fortunately, Heracross can be safely taken countermeasure by Flying type etc, so don't overdo it.
   -vs Miltank: At least it can be weakened with Sleep Powder and/or Leech Seed. If all goes well, you can beat it.
   -vs Blissey: It's hard to beat each other, but Venusaur can weaken Blissey. If you have a Pokémon like Zapdos who learns Swagger, you may have a chance to beat your opponent.
   
   However, keep in mind that Exeggutor is a major threat to Venusaur.
   Similarly, Alakazam and Fire type Sweepers are dangerous.
   Misdreavus and Gengar can also be a threat (But if it's a perfect 1 on 1, Venusaur wins with Self KO Clause).
   Therefore, it is effective to use Tyranitar together.
   In Japan, it is common to use Tyranitar as a Mixed Sweeper, but you can also use Pursuit.
   In addition, the combined use of Snorlax + Fire type Sweppers is also effective.
   
   One more thing to note is that Venusaur's strength depends heavily on Sleep Powder and Leech Seed.
   So if opponent's Zapdos/Electabuzz/etc use the Substitute, the position will be reversed.
   
   
2. Swagger
   Swagger is a move often used in today's NC2000 in Japan.
   
   The most basic set is Combination of level 55 Zapdos (Thunder/Hidden Power Ice/Swagger/Substitute/Leftovers) and level 50 Misdreavus(Gengar) (Mean Look/Perish Song/Destiny Bond).
   Occasionally, some players use Swagger with Level 55 Zapdos, Level 55 Raikou and Level 55 Moltres without Substitute(with Leftovers) and/or Misdreavus, but this is an advanced set.
   I love these advanced set, but it's based on basic set and detailed simulations, and it's also a really recently set.
   First of all, it is important to know the basic set.
   
   The threat to Zapdos is Snorlax.
   Swagger is used to beat that Snorlax.
   But, Swagger to Snorlax is dangerous, because Swagger raises Snorlax's Attack Rank.
   To eliminate that danger, use Substitute (with Leftovers) and Misdreavus.
   First, when opponent's Snorlax switches to your Zapdos, use either Swagger or Substitute. Then, on the next turn, use the unused move. Then use Thunder if Zapdos has a Substitute, or use Substitute if Zapdos doesn't.
   This way, Zapdos will not be hit by Snorlax's STAB move.
   With this alone, Snorlax who is solved Confuse and not SLP, may be left. Snorlax in this state is very dangerous because it certainly uses a raised attack rank STAB move.
   In such a case, switch to Misdreavus. This will prevent from the raised attack rank STAB move and force opponent to switch.
   (Even if opponent's Snorlax is learning Earthquake, Snorlax won't use Earthquake unless opponent anticipate a switch to Misdreavus. Using Earthquake against Zapdos gives you a chance to use the Substitute.)
   By doing these, you can safely defeat Snorlax.
   
   Spiker + Phazer is also a typical method for beating Snorlax with Zapdos.
   
   Compared to Spiker + Phazer, Swagger has the following advantages:
   -Avoid metagame of Spikers and Spinners: As a countermeasure against Snorlax, Misdreavus is superior to Cloyster and Forretress. If you need Spiker, you will need to use Cloyster or Forretress. And when using Spikeer, it will be necessary to take countermeasures against Spinners. These factors reduce efficiency. If You use Swagger , you can prevent reduce efficiency.
   -Strong against Venusaur and Exploders: If you use Substitute, you can turn face-to-face with Venusaur into an opportunity. And the Substitute protects Zapdos from Explosions such as Forretress and Exeggutor.
   -There is a chance of reversal: If you're lucky, Swagger can overturn your disadvantages. For example, if Zapdos(learned Swagger) and Snorlax fight in a perfect 1 on 1, Zapdos has a chance to reverse with Swagger.
   
   Compared to Spiker + Phazer, Swagger has the following drawbacks:
   -Weak in Status ailment: Zapdos in this moveset cannot recover Status ailment. Therefore, switch to Zapdos is always careful. Of course you need to be careful with species like Skarmory and Suicune. Perhaps species like even Heracross andMachamp are learning Toxic. On the contrary, you may even have to be careful face-to-face. For example, in face-to-face against Starmie, you can defeat Starmie if you hit Thunder, but if you receive Toxic or Thunder Wave at this time, it can be fatal.
   -Can't beat Blissey: Even with Swagger, Blissey is too hard to beat. You need to beat Blissey by another methods. By the way, you can defeat Raikou by challenging many times, but it may be more difficult than using Spiker + Phazer.
   
   
3. Attract
   Attract is also a move often used in today's NC2000 in Japan.
   
   The most main user is Alakazam. Electabuzz/Kingdra/etc may also be used.
   In the case of Alakazam, basic set is Combination of level 55 Alakazam (Psychic/Dynamic Punch or Thunder Punch/Attract/Substitute/Leftovers).
   If you want to defeat Blissey, learn Dynamic Punch, and if you want to defeat Starmie, learn Thunder Punch.
   
   Usage is similar to Swagger.
   Snorlax is usually male to prevent a drop in Attack IV.
   Therefore, if a female Pokémon uses Attracted like Swagger, you can defeat Snorlax.
   Attract is safe. That's because it doesn't increase the Attack Rank and it doesn't solve due to progressing turn.
   Therefore, Misdreavus (Gengar) is not required.
   
   But watch out for the metagame about gender.
   As an Attract countermeasure, Snorlax may be female even if it accepts a decrease in Attack IV.
   In Japan, Sometimes, it is actually done at the tournament.
   For example, Japanese player "おかしょー" actually did it and got 1st prize.
   https://seesaawiki.jp/pbs-thread/d/...9%a5%b5%a5%de%c7%d5%a1%a120201017%28%c5%da%29

 

[chio]

I'm sorry to overlook the important point.
In NC2000, players also had to show gender before the battle.

The previous post has been corrected as follows:

-Beforehand, Enter 6 pokémons, and show for opponents about 6 pokémons species.
(Strictly writing, the level, the presence or absence of held items and the gender are also shown to each other. But, players will not show the name of the held item.)

I made the recommended format. I hope it helps you.
("@" means "the presence of held item")

L53 Snorlax male @
L52 Umbreon female @
L50 Victreebel male @
L50 Starmie none @
L50 Machamp male @
L50 Skarmory male

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

I took your format Chio and improved it:

In the previous example M means that the pokémon is male, F that it's female and N that it does not have gender. The @ sign means that the pokémon has an item (in the previous example Misdreavus lacks an item which means that she may have Thief).

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

@chio We international players have learnt that having a trapping move, a sleep inducing move and Perish Song in the same set is broken. If we take Event pokémon out, Gastly, Haunter, Gengar, Jynx, Lapras, Politoed and Smeargle can still have those three moves in the same set. I once used a Smeargle with Spider Web, Spore, Perish Song and Destiny Bond and succeeded.

If the experience has shown us that that combination should be banned, I think it would be wise to keep that strategy banned.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

There is another big difference between Poké Cup and OU: some pokémon can increase their stats more times than they can at level 100. In Gold, Silver and Crystal, a max Attack level 55 Marowak can use Swords Dance two times without causing a rollover thus getting a final Attack of 864; in Pokémon Stadium 2, it can even use Swords Dance three times to get a final Attack of 999!

Snorlax is another notable example, it can use Curse or Belly Drum to quadruple its Attack up to 708 (at level 100, Snorlax can only increase its Attack 3.5 times).

It would be interesting to see if a player can use these strategies to get pokémon with absurd stats that are capable of demolishing entire teams.

 

[chio]

Beelzemon 2003
Yes.
I calculated the probability and realized that the combination of those moves is as threatening as OHKO moves.
Sleep Trap Clause should be applied in Showdown.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

Event Moves Ban

Hi all, Beelzemon 2003 here. Many players asked me which was the procedure that we used to ban all Event Moves in the International Ruleset of Gen 2 Poké Cup. What we did was to gather the Japanese and the International Players to discuss the topic, they had four options: to only allow the Japanese Event Moves, to only allow the Event Moves from New York, to only allow Event Moves that were common of both regions and to ban all Event Moves. This is what every player said:

• FOMG, Napalm Boy and the Jorg said that only the Event Moves from Japan should be allowed.

Players' opinions

• Kitty said that only the Event Moves from New York should be allowed.

Player's opinions

• Tako said that only the Event Moves that were available on both regions should be allowed.

Player's opinions

• Beelzemon 2003, Chio, けつばん（MISSINGNO) and Talloween likes Ledyba too much said that all event moves should be banned by deafult, but that they could be allowed if the TOs/players agreed to it.

Player's opinions

• Finally, Siatam said that we could restrict Event Moves, but he didn't specify if he was referring to some or all, so his opinion could be seen as a Neutral Vote.

Player's opinions

Results of the discussion

Only the Event moves from Japan should be allowed: 3 votes

Only the Event Moves from New York should be allowed: 1 vote

Only the Event Moves that exist in both regions should be allowed: 1 vote

All Event Moves should be banned by default, but they can be allowed if the TOs/players agree to it: 4 votes

Neutral votes: 1 vote

Total Votes: 10 votes

Outcome: All Event Moves should be banned by default, but they can be allowed if the TOs/players agree to it.

Conclusions

It is interesting to note that 8 out of the 10 players involved agreed to ban the Event Moves from New York. Stealth Croc and yours truly think that if those moves were allowed, Snorlax would be even more powerful in the Poké Cup, where it is already ranked as the best pokémon (it is alone in the SSS Tier). Lovely Kiss makes very hard or virtually impossible to counter a pokémon that already doesn't have true counters in Overused and that in the Poké Cup can be at level 55 while two of its opponents are at level 50. The level gap makes Snorlax even more powerful than it is in Overused and if it had Lovely Kiss I dare to say that it would be qualified as Uber (by the way, many top players agreed last year that Snorlax was the best pokémon of Gen 2 Ubers).

Anyway, based on the results of the discussion, all Event Moves are banned in the International Ruleset of Gen 2 Poké Cup by deafult; however, they can be allowed if the TOs/players agree to it.

Please take into account that banning Event Moves by default doesn't mean that they can't never be used, because, as the rule says, those moves can be used ocassionally if the TOs/players agree to it. To explain this better I want to give you the example of what happens in the Gen 1 Ubers tournaments: Species, Evasion and One Hit KO Clauses are enforced by default in Ubers; however, TOs in the Ruins of Alph do organize sporadical Ubers tournaments where those clauses are ignored, they call those tournaments Gen 1 Anything Goes (in fact, we had two Anything Goes tournaments in the ROA chatroom last December).

Well, that's all for now, please feel free to share your thoughts in the comments below.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

We finally have sample teams!

After weeks of testing, the Smogon and the Japanese communities built five new sample teams to help new players that want to try the format but don't know where to start, click this link to find them.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

Hey chums, CherryB0ng and yours truly published a list of all the Event Moves of Gen II, click this link to find it.

 

[Mango Celebi]

Is there a place to get games in this format? I tried following the links to the Japanese simulator but it looks like its text only and beyond my comprehension :(