Discussion Week ~ Week 2 - Diancie

[BLOOD TOTEM]

This is a thread which aims to stimulate discussion about a key Pokemon in the Smogon Doubles Metagame. You can talk about any aspect of the Pokemon, so long as it is related to Doubles. For example, you can raise points about what set you like to run on a Pokemon but, you cannot debate whether Landorus-T is a dog or a cat (it's a dog btw). You're free to raise any points you please, but it's also important to address ideas raised by other uses to generate debates and discussion.

Some ideas for discussion include:​

• How to optimize EVs for the Pokemon​
• What movesets can be run on this Pokemon​
• What Pokemon make good teammates for this Pokemon​
• How can this Pokemon be beaten​

To avoid the thread becoming a slosh of pure theorymon, please try to back up posts with examples such as replays which showcase the attribute that you are discussing.​

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Week One - Landorus-T

 

[koolkranny]

Ok let me actually write a post now

Landorus T has been a major thorn in the side of any physical mon that isn't named Bisharp. Its majorly good move pool includes rock slide, earthquake, explosion, u-turn, super power, knock-off, so on and so forth. It can be tailored to fit a number of roles including physical tank, sweeper, or scouting.

It's biggest weakness is ice, but the aformentioned bisharp can usually ohko with a sucker punch.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 298-351 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
(though it doesn't take much to ev around this)

Scarf is the most common item run, and it's speed is one of the most ev'd against speeds known to doubles.

This is easily one of the scariest mons out there, and fits onto almost any team.

 

[Stratos]

Lando is decent vs defense and balance, but nothing too special. It's got Intimidate, which is nice, and can threaten things out or kill them with the appropriate coverage move. Also can fish for rock slide flinches which is indescribably annoying and if we weren't committed to accuracy I'd push to mod rock slide to a 10% flinch chance.

Where lando REALLY shines though is in the matchup against hyper offense. It outspeeds the entire team and 2hkoes everything with QuakeSlide coverage. Fortunately, if the rest of the Lando's team is hopeless vs HO then you can keep it at bay with Bisharp and high pressure, but if they can get lando in then basically something or some things will die. There's a reason rain offense was the most used type of offense in late xy—it's the only build that was consistent against Lando.

The only offensive switchin, and the best overall, to Landorus is Landorus. EQ immune, takes little damage from -1 rock moves, doesn't lose much momentum to U-turn thanks to its fast U-turn.

Speaking of which, I've been wondering about whether U-turn is really necessary on Lando. I don't use it often anymore because the punish of U-turning into a protect or fake out is so high, especially when Lando is so valuable, so I can basically only use it on Cress or mons that just protected, and I typically don't want to use it in the latter case. If you drop U-turn then you have room for Rock Slide AND Stone Edge which is great because i've had so many instances where I want one and only have the other.

 

[BlankZero]

I think when it comes to Lando-T, I prefer to either go with his Scarf set (EQ/RS/UTurn/Filler), or a slower, bulky set with Yache/Sitrus.

The first set is used to create momentum and spam intimidate, while constantly being a threat.

The second set is actually fun to use as bait, where you can trick out an opposing Bisharp and nab a KO with EQ.

Hide

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 290-344 (106.6 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 298-351 (78 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I do agree with Pwne tho, that the best switchin to Lando-T is Lando-T, which makes having one on your team usually better than not.

 

[Qazoo306]

Speaking of which, I've been wondering about whether U-turn is really necessary on Lando. I don't use it offen anymore because the punish of U-turning into a protect or fake out is so high, especially when Lando is so valuable, so I can basically only use it on Cress or mons that just protected, and I typically don't want to use it in the latter case. If you drop U-turn then you have room for Rock Slide AND Stone Edge which is great because i've had so many instances where I want one and only have the other.

I strongly disagree with this. One of lando's most prominent roles it's scarf set has is it's ability to switch in and back out with U-Turn, activating intimidate, without loosing momentum for your team. Also, I think that scarf is probably the most viable set and you need an extremely good reason to run a different set than that. But onto the other issue of Stone Edge vs Rock Slide (SE & RS), I think that on a scarf set, RS is better but on a non scarf set, SE is better. RS is good on a scarf set because it has a 51% chance to get at least one flinch and a 9% chance to get two. With a scarf, your almost only going first anyway, so the flinches are more likely to happen. If you aren't scarfed though, the ability to deal heavy damage (nearly twice the damage of RS when you factor in spread) SE is the optimal choice.

 

[youngjake93]

Speaking of which, I've been wondering about whether U-turn is really necessary on Lando. I don't use it offen anymore because the punish of U-turning into a protect or fake out is so high, especially when Lando is so valuable, so I can basically only use it on Cress or mons that just protected, and I typically don't want to use it in the latter case. If you drop U-turn then you have room for Rock Slide AND Stone Edge which is great because i've had so many instances where I want one and only have the other.

I've always hard switched on Lando-T more than U-Turn to be safe, but I still think its worth keeping over double rock moves more often than not. It is very valuable to be able to see what they are switching in with U-Turn over the hard switch when you are pretty sure they will switch out. You also can bring in a Pokemon like Kanga free of Intimidate drops you would receive on a double switch. You also do get some coverage with U-Turn on Cress+Latis+Darkrai. And let's not forget that chip damage from 145 base attack is always helpful.


I don't really like the popularity of Superpower on Lando-T. I feel like Explosion and Knock Off do many more things than just ohko one mon. Especially since you don't ohko the bulky version of that mon iirc and if they swap in an Intimidate, Lando-T locked into Superpower becomes a MAJOR liability. I would much rather swap Stone Edge>Superpower than Stone Edge>U-Turn. Some people say "oh it actuallly ohkos ttar tho," but really you can just U-Turn or EQ a -1 ttar... it's not a threat. I guess it could all go wrong with a Weakness Policy/Ice Beam Tyranitar, but those aren't common options and even a +2/+1 Tyranitar is more than manageable.

 

[Audiosurfer]

I kinda agree with Pwnemon though. While fundamentally nothing is /worse/ about U-turn on Lando-T it's just gotten so common that an opponent could call it and really punish you if you're not careful, and given how many roles Landorus-T often covers in a team (revenge killer, intimidate, etc.), hard switching does seem to be a pretty good option unless you're looking to weaken something in particular (like if you need to weaken a common Lando-T switchin for another mon to break through the opposing team or something).

 

[antemortem]

I don't tend to use U-Turn on landy and opt to run three attacks + Protect, though this depends on what I'm running alongside it. Tailwind, something I run pretty regularly, is what I partner most with this landy, as has a Protect turn and then opportunities to get off free slides/eqs/knock offs with the twind boost. U-Turn is kind of redundant in this role and otherwise.. I don't know, I've never been a fan of the switching moves in such a fast-paced environment as Doubles. Seems more gimmicky to me at this point, and Pwnemon I think is right in the fact its incredibly easy to predict and can run risk of leaving a hole open.

 

[Stratos]

I'm not saying that I think U-turn is less than great when I can use it successfully, because it really is. Every perk jake mentioned of U-turn is why I always run it, the problem is I hardly ever get to use it. I wish I consistently logged my replays so I could go back and see how often I hard switch vs how often I u-turn especially early game (in fact, that's something I'm resolving right now to do in the future so I can improve), but I would wager that it's probably 80% of the time that I end up having to hard switch. I will probably miss the coverage on Latios and Cress if I end up dropping U-turn but it's nothing I can't live without.

You're definitely downplaying Stone Edge Qazoo306. It's necessary to dispatch a LOT of threats in one turn if you don't want to bank on the 30% flinch: Thundurus, Skymin, Rotom-H... You can't hit a zard next to Top or Aegis without it (versus wayyyyy too many people have I successfully kept Zard in on Lando because I had a wide guard Aegis) and you can't ko zard at -1 with RS.

As to jake with Superpower, that's another move I'm not willing to give up. Yes it's pretty redundant with EQ but it's pretty vital too. Sometimes your partner is simply not in a situation where they can afford for you to EQ, but you need to hit things; see terraquaza's week 1 DPL match for an example. When you need a guaranteed kill on Rotom-W and nothing else is left which can do it easily, Superpower will finish it off from around 50%. Also, every TTar is WP, Ice Beam, or both, so you actually do need superpower to beat it (well, with Lando. you don't need superpower to beat tar because it's a piece of shit). But overall, of course, the reason for Superpower is it turns Lando from setup fodder for Kang into one of the best Kang checks in the metagame, so I wouldn't pass it up unless your team is 100% rock-solid against kang.

The reason I don't like knock off at all is that being locked into unSTAB knock off is one of the worst things in the world and guaranteed tosses your momentum; its only real benefit is that it lets you catch other Lando on the switch and serves as a coverage option for Latios that koes no matter what instead of only after chip, but again KOing latios means they get a free switch and as I just said being locked into Knock Off is free momentum for your opponent.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Where lando REALLY shines though is in the matchup against hyper offense. It outspeeds the entire team and 2hkoes everything with QuakeSlide coverage. Fortunately, if the rest of the Lando's team is hopeless vs HO then you can keep it at bay with Bisharp and high pressure, but if they can get lando in then basically something or some things will die. There's a reason rain offense was the most used type of offense in late xy—it's the only build that was consistent against Lando.

As a big fan of Hyper Offense, I always mark Landorus-T as a major threat to the HO archetype. This is reflected in the teambuilding process of my most recent HO team found

here.

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Ally Switch
- Protect

Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 Atk / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Low Kick
- Protect

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Quick Guard
- Protect

Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Protect

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Trick

Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Protect

Both Deoxys-A and Rotom-W are capable of taking Landorus-T out as early as possible. The surprise value of Choice Scarf Rotom-W has been a great help in handling a whole bunch of threats, but Landorus-T is by far the most high value target. The sets are centered around beating Adamant Scarf Lando which meant that the odd time I faced a Jolly variant, I was fighting a particularly difficult battle.

Where possible, I do try to gear my sets to be effective against Landorus-T, this means that deviation from the standard set can be a huge boost to Landorus-T. The simple act of switching to Jolly can really throw opponents relying on Landorus-T only hitting 421 Speed. For example: Dragon Dance Charizard X may only be htting enough speed to outrun Adamant Landorus-T at +1, or slower Tailwind Pokemon may fall just short of the mark.

Speaking of Tailwind, one set I strongly recommend is 60 Speed Togekiss, this not only beats Adamant Scarf Landorus at +2, but also manages to creep 8 Spe Rotom formes which is pretty handy since you have insta-flinch™ installed into Air Slash.

 

[Bughouse]

I mean the remarkable thing about Landorus-T is that the meta has definitely evolved since the beginning of XY, and yet it's more or less as good as ever, while almost always using the exact same set.

 

[BlankZero]

Scarf mamopig is worth mentioning as a great check to lando, jolly scarf Mamo out speeds adamant scarf lando and 1 shots lando-T with icicle crash even at -1. It also beats common lando teammates like thundy

How well does Banded Ice Shard do?


pwnemon edit: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

 

[Laurel]

I'm not going to post something too witty but Landorus-T, big fan.

The sub + protect set is really cool which I don't see many people using that is awesome vs other Landorus-T. Scarf is of course really good, and I've become a big fan of Focus Sash to bluff scarf. I was thinking earlier Assault Vest probably works as a better sun check and a good Aegislash check. Landorus is cool because you pretty much know what can and can't kill it because random Hidden Power [Ice] sometimes doesn't even 2hko, I'm looking at you Garchomp..

 

[youngjake93]

Scarf mamopig is worth mentioning as a great check to lando, jolly scarf Mamo out speeds adamant scarf lando and 1 shots lando-T with icicle crash even at -1. It also beats common lando teammates like thundy

I just don't like how mamo takes 50% from EQ just to use a pretty predictable single-target attack... It's not like you can afford to not use an Ice move on lando because it could just kill you and Superpower isn't really the best move to nail switch ins with leaving you even more predictable/un-threatening at -1/-1 50% hp. Not to mention LOL if Lando gets a Superpower or U-Turn on you. Even U-Turn has >50% chance to 3hko

How well does Banded Ice Shard do?

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 316-376 (99 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Really Blank? You had to post just for someone else to type in less than what you just posted to get the answer?

pwnemon edit: you clearly don't know blankzero well

0 because you flinch to rock slide

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 288-340 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

How do you flinch a priority user?

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

First and foremost, toed. duh. Secondly, an electric type that outspeeds Charizard Y, to handle it and be the fast half of the team's major damage output. Third, a strong, bulky Steel-type, used for the bulky half of the team's major damage output. Fourth, a grass, to switch into opposing Water-types, especially Rotom-W. Fifth, intimidate, to turn politoed into a ridiculously good physical tank. Sixth, the wild card.

Borrowed a quote from Pwnemon's framework thread to illustrate why rain is such a powerful archetype against Landorus-T. Aside from the obvious fact that Water-types hit Landorus-T super effectively, there are a lot of elements to a standard rain team that are effective against Landorus.

Politoed - Doesn't really need any explanation, it can tank anything Lando throws at it and hit back with a Scald / Ice Beam.
Electric-type - HP Ice is standard coverage for Electric-types, all it takes is one decent prediction to ruin Landorus with ease. In addition to this, common Electric-types include Earthquake immune Pokemon such as Thundurus and Rotom-W
Bulky Steel-type - Initially this looks like something Landorus-T could beat with ease. Upon further consideration, you notice common picks include Pokemon such as Aegislash, Scizor and Escavlier. All of which are Pokemon that can take a hit from Lando and hurt it back.
Grass-type - 9/10 times this is Ludicolo which beats Lando with ease thanks to Swift Swim + STAB, rain-boosted Hydro Pump.
Intimidate - Whilst it doesn't beat Landorus-T, Intimidate does help to handle it since it helps the Electric-type take a hit and retaliate with HP Ice (example - Raikou / Mega Manectric survive -1 EQ)
Wild Card - Depends what it is o,o

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Week Two - Diancie

​

 

[Arcticblast]

remind me why we tested Mence when Diancie is around?

edit @ Pwnemon: no really Mega Diancie is broken

 

[Stratos]

im sure the more you repeat that joke the better it will get

 

[koolkranny]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I think that Mega Diancie has changed how Heatran is played. Many mons have changed their move sets to counter Mega Diancie. Heatran no longer uses lefies or sitrus berry, now its schuca berry, and they all run flash cannon. Almost none of them run substitute.

I've seen a few other interesting builds trying to deal with Mega Diancie, including flash cannon klefki. But mostly, its Mega Diancie using diamond storm to victory. With 2 amazing coverage moves in the form of moon blast and earth power, Mega Dancie can usually hold its own.

 

[13ulbasaur]

I like Diancie because it reminds me to put a Steel move on my team which I always forget to do so I get bopped by other fairies but thanks to Diancie I always remember for Steel. ^_^

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Is it worth it to run 48 Spa to ohko heatran? Most of them run shucca berry anyway and a stronger Diamond Storm is always worth it since it's what you're usually spamming.

 

[Idyll]

Is it worth it to run 48 Spa to ohko heatran? Most of them run shucca berry anyway and a stronger Diamond Storm is always worth it since it's what you're usually spamming.

48 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 272-320 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

On another note, I really like how Mega Princess is fitting in the meta. Being a Fairy-type with 110 Speed is downright awesome, since it can keep in check some of the faster half of the metagame. Also, having a strong spammable Rock-type move that can also boost Defense is really REALLY cool, especially when it already has coverage for Steel- and Fighting-types, which are Moonblast and Earth Power. Fairy is always good coverage to have, especially when it outspeeds and hits the most threatening Fighting-types in the MuskaDeers, while Ground is always cool coverage to have for hitting the multitude of Steels. The only things that I don't like is that it's frail af, 50 / 110 / 110 is mediocre even for an attacker. It's sorta prone to priority too like Scizor BP, and it can't switch in AT ALL except on Draco Meteors (but you shouldn't try that game bc Psyshock is a 2HKO lol)

While building with this sometime ago, I noticed that Mega Princess + Volcarona is a really cool and interesting combo. Basically, MDiancie can take out Heatran, Keldeo, Chomp, Terrakion, and Talonflame among other things while also dealing significant damage to Rotom-W. Most of the things I just mentioned are things the Volcarona hates; with those things safely dealt with, Volcarona is much more free to force an endgame with Quiver Dance. Another interesting note is that Volcarona can take out the Steel-types MDiancie doesn't want / can't deal with such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Aegislash. Deffo cool core, should try out :]

 

[Pane]

I tried a similar core with mega diancie and eviolite magmar (basically has the same role as volcarona but it has helping hand ) and it was good i also tried blastoise as a follow me user and it was good too but you can't run follow me and fake out on the same set unfortunately.
The real problem with mega diancie is first of all it's speed because basically you are forced to protect the first turn also you can't really switch to anything because it's ultra frail and you really need a follow me user because it dies to everything it can't ko or very common priority like bullet punch or aqua jet.

• A standars spread is hasty nature 252 speed 196 atk 60 spa ( i run just a bit more than 48 but it's similar ).
• And the standard moveset is : moonblast/earthpower/diamond storm/protect.

Main reason to use mDiancie is diamond storm and magic bounce which is an amazing ability, the funny thing i saw once was will o wisp mew bounced back to mew but burned diancie because of Synchronize it's a cool way to burn diancie lol.

i'm posting a replay with the mDiancie-magmar core : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoubles-199919586

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Diancie was one of a whole bunch of Mega Pokemon which hits a fantastic Speed tier, 110. Compared to Mega Metagross and Mega Gallade which also occupy this tier, it is my personal favorite. What sets it apart from these Pokemon and makes it a great fit in the Smogon Doubles Metagame is a combination of factors which really helps it shine.

Diancie has a powerful offensive presence; Rock / Fairy provides pretty great coverage, especially with Earth Power to round off it's coverage. It can really make use of it's speed tier to pick off slower threats because of this. This replay showcases Diancie's ability to demolish teams that rely on slower threats to win. Diamond Storm is a fantastic move for doubles, it provides spread damage as well as the chance to boost Defense. This helps it to function against common metagame threats such as Mega Kangaskhan. With only a single boost, Diancie can reach a point where it is possible to tank a Landorus-T Earthquake, whilst it can't OHKO back, this is still a pretty significant achievement.

Both Diancie's pre-mega, and post-mega abilities are useful. Clear Body means you have a one turn immunity to the effects of Intimidate and means you can get off more damage on any Landorus-T that choose to switch in to soak up the hit. Magic Bounce is fantastic on Diancie, it helps teams counter Sleep whilst also proving effective against one of the most irritating Pokemon in the metagame, Thundurus-I. Thundurus is often the bane of speedy attackers since it can render them essentially useless, but Diancie can just shrug it off and proceed to crumble teams that rely on Thundurus to be a shaky check to every fast attacker.

SHUCA HEATRAN IS GOOD!!!!1!!!1111!!!!

I've seen a lot in the thread about Shuca Berry Heatran. Personally I think Shuca Berry Heatran is a bad set especially in the context of being a check to Diancie. Shuca Berry Heatran cannot switch into a Diamond Storm and then take an Earth Power and live all the time, in addition to this it's kinda bad against a lot of users of Ground-type moves. After Heatran has had around 30% of it's HP chipped away, it's not surviving many Ground-type attacks, even with a Shuca Berry. Whilst this situation is hypothetical, it's not unlikely to happen considering Heatran's defensive typing will force it into play often. Beyond this, Heatran isn't capable of taking down many Ground-type Pokemon in a single hit to make use of it's Shuca Berry unless it carries Hidden Power Ice which is, in my opinion, vastly outclassed by options like Substitute. One Pokemon it can take down in a hit is Excadrill, but it's a huge risk to stay in since Life Orb Excadrill has a pretty solid chance to OHKO Shuca Heatran anyway.

 

[koolkranny]

I've actually got a Mega Diancie/Volcarona core in the sample teams thread, and it's treated me quite well. The only problem I run into on a regular basis is, you guessed it, Landoge. While you can tank hits from it with enough boosts from diamond storm, it tends to be a late game switch in now. Most opponents keep him back until Diancie has mega evolved. The most common stat distribution i've seen is -1atk +2 Def.