From this perspective, I think it would make more sense to view National Dex AG as an evergreen meta with periodic updates than a current generation one. A sandbox meta where every element that has ever been legal in any generation (at least as far as it doesn't cause outright contradictions with current gen mechanics; in other words, mechanical updates are always preserved and removals are never preserved) is allowed is a concept that would likely appeal to a non-negligible amount of people, but I don't think it makes much sense to think of it as a generation 8 meta, and thinking of it as one creates a weird hybrid where the distinction between what is and isn't allowed feels quite arbitrary. Why not have non-Normal gems? Why not have the Berserk Gene?Since the post asks for as many opinions as possible:
Anything Goes is most fun as a sandbox metagame. NatDex AG still features more pokemon and items, including z-items, and this maximises the options the players have to work with, maximising the margin for a. powerful sets and b. creativity, which are the features which make AG stand out. Therefor, I support continuing the use of NatDex as the main AG format.
Fun is more important in competitive pokemon than authenticity, especially outside of the central structure of Smogon tiers.
The intent of Nat-Dex seems to be bringing stuff back that was removed in the cross between Gen 7 and Gen 8, not to restore all existing mechanics in Pokemon history. While I wouldn't be upset to see some returning items like gems, there is a reason they were not brought back for Nat Dex.From this perspective, I think it would make more sense to view National Dex AG as an evergreen meta with periodic updates than a current generation one. A sandbox meta where every element that has ever been legal in any generation (at least as far as it doesn't cause outright contradictions with current gen mechanics; in other words, mechanical updates are always preserved and removals are never preserved) is allowed is a concept that would likely appeal to a non-negligible amount of people, but I don't think it makes much sense to think of it as a generation 8 meta, and thinking of it as one creates a weird hybrid where the distinction between what is and isn't allowed feels quite arbitrary. Why not have non-Normal gems? Why not have the Berserk Gene?
Basically, my thoughts on this are that if we're going to keep AG as it is to maximise available elements, then we ought to go big or go home. The current situation, where we have top-tier Pokemon which use custom interactions but we still ban things from past generations based on in-game availability, feels like an awkward compromise. Why not fully embrace Showdown's identity as a cross-generational simulator? The biggest barrier to doing so is that mechanical consistency between elements that have never officially coexisted requires custom mechanics, but National Dex AG has already embraced this with things like Max Hidden Power.
we could do that beccause eh it is not a competetiv format or more for funThe intent of Nat-Dex seems to be bringing stuff back that was removed in the cross between Gen 7 and Gen 8, not to restore all existing mechanics in Pokemon history. While I wouldn't be upset to see some returning items like gems, there is a reason they were not brought back for Nat Dex.
The Berserk Gene I understand because it is gen 2 only, but the gems and other items are weird to me, it has always felt off for me to allow Z moves but not them.Why not have non-Normal gems? Why not have the Berserk Gene?
Hmmm, a meta that promises less power creep while still being potentially different from Ubers?
Neither Smeargle (to my knowledge) or arceus are even things after the dlc, so I don't see how you can make this argument, since there's even less to distinguish Galar AG from Galar Ubers. Also, how is Zacian in any way less powercreep lol. It outspeeds Mewtwo by 1 point when adamant and goes toe-to-toe with Dyna'd mons. It is the definition of powercreep.Not to mention no one even runs double arcs, so what really is the difference between this and hypothetical natdex Ubers? Moody Smeargle?
I saw that thread go up yesterday, and since I’m not badged this seems like the best place to share my thoughts. I personally care more about NatDex OU than AG, but this discussion applies to both.Lastly, one related thing that can be discussed here is the topic raised in Policy Review about the identity of National Dex. You can check out that thread here. Policy Review requires a badge to post, but if you have something you want to say about this feel free to raise the issues here. If you feel particularly strongly, shoot me a PM and I can post in the thread on your behalf. The exact form National Dex takes is pretty relevant to the decision here, my personal preference is that National Dex try and mimic a metagame where all the Pokemon from Home are released into SwSh (similar to Pokebank tiers from last gen), but I know other people may feel differently.
If they do not want to change then they should not. Should you play golf instead of Pokémon just because you not doing so is "just you being unable to change"? I think that changing should not be a goal for it's own sake. The goal should be fun, and if people have more fun by not changing then not changing is what what we should do.I would say revert to Galar Dex. Personally I feel like having NatDex, while allowing use of all mechanics and mons, is simply players being unable to change.
I never pledged loyalty to gen 8 so I cannot betray it either. I'm just playing Pokémon for fun. Did you pledge your loyalty to gen 8?When I heard that not all pokemon would be in Gen 8, I was of course disappointed. But to just create a tier where you can use everything anyway seems to me like a betrayal of Gen 8.
This argument would actually be against your point if it was valid. Natdex AG uses the mechanics of gen 8 + the mechanics of gen 7. Galar AG is the only one of the two ditching mechanics here. It's like NetDex AG is saying "I like all mechanics and I gratefully accept them" and Galar AG is saying "Hey I like some of the mechanics but the rest is shit so lets not use them".It's like saying, hey, I like all the new pokemon, but these new mechanics are shit so let's not use them.
The only advantage that past players get is due to the skill that they gained from practicing and studying the metagame. That means that if they win due to that advanatge then they are winning due to smart skilled moves and teams. So what you are saying here seems to boil down to that people should win due to skill and thus we must prevent people from using skill to gain an advantage. That contradicts itself.Competitive pokemon should be the best players using smart, skilled teams and moves, and by rejecting Gen 8 mechanics I feel like we are giving past players a huge advantage, and screwing over Gen 8 greats.
But in Magic-the posterchild for TCGs-even older formats ARE affected by mechanic changes and errata. Cards like Hostage-Taker got mechanics changes that applied to all formats, various cards have their rules text clarified/the mechanics changed, and creatures have had their type retconned (dinosaurs being a recent and prominent example). These changes affected all formats, and even something as fundamental to Magic as the mulligan (how you draw your opening hand) has been changed drastically and recently despite the varying level of impact on Eternal formats.There’s a comparison I’d use to demonstrate this: anyone who’s played trading card games/collectible card games knows that they always have at least two main formats: a ”Standard” format that only allows cards from the most recent X sets, and an “eternal format“ where the cards that rotate out of Standard can still be used. Gen 8 marks competitive Pokemon’s first real Standard “rotation”, with many Pokémon, moves, and mechanics leaving regional formats, as they are no longer in the most recent game. NatDex provides the eternal format in which we can still use all of these removed elements, growing with each new generation and only having elements removed by bannings.
Defining NatDex is this way maintains the format as it is and gives it a way to define its identity in the future if Pokémon continues to leave past Pokémon, moves, mechanics, etc. out of future games. It also allows for an easy way to define released vs unreleased to resolve the Home TM/TR and starter HA debate: elements are added to NatDex once they become available in a game, and once added they stay. We continue to control moveset compatibility using the extended transfer mechanics as we have been. The format stays as it currently is, and has a clearly defined identity for the future.
tldr: Define NatDex by not removing things, starting from where we are now. It’s easy to understand and easy to extend to the future.
I play Magic, and you’re clearly misinterpreting what I said to fit your own opinion. New errata is obviously applied. Tapu Koko’s terrain only boosts by 1.3 because terrain was nerfed, even though Tapu Koko isn’t in gen 8. Older formats keep all the old things that aren’t in the new format, while applying any changes the new format applies to the existing rules. There aren’t any cards with Storm in Standard, but they’re still usable in Modern. Mega Evolution isn’t in Galar, but it is still usable in NatDex. If you want a format that sticks exactly to “GameFreak’s vision” go play regional.But in Magic-the posterchild for TCGs-even older formats ARE affected by mechanic changes and errata. Cards like Hostage-Taker got mechanics changes that applied to all formats, various cards have their rules text clarified/the mechanics changed, and creatures have had their type retconned (dinosaurs being a recent and prominent example). These changes affected all formats, and even something as fundamental to Magic as the mulligan (how you draw your opening hand) has been changed drastically and recently despite the varying level of impact on Eternal formats.
I think that having NatDex try to keep everything without removing anything will likely not line-up with Gamefreak's vision. What if Gamefreak has it that by DLC 2 that Toxic's distribution is only supposed to be in that limited group and makes it so that transferred mons with the move that are incompatible have to unlearn it? And that trend continues in every future game? Etc. etc.
Actually you're right in that MTG was a bad example! But my concern is what if-or more likely, when-Gamefreak brings back returning mechanics like Megas, Z-moves, etc. in DLC 1/2 or even the next game (more likely the latter since the former would likely bring up a lot of confusing situations) along with the changes we see to movepools and certain moves, what if said changes still persist? Of course this doesn't necessarily apply to Nat Dex right now, but DLC are coming out soon and who knows.I play Magic, and you’re clearly misinterpreting what I said to fit your own opinion. New errata is obviously applied. Tapu Koko’s terrain only boosts by 1.3 because terrain was nerfed, even though Tapu Koko isn’t in gen 8. Older formats keep all the old things that aren’t in the new format, while applying any changes the new format applies to the existing rules. There aren’t any cards with Storm in Standard, but they’re still usable in Modern. Mega Evolution isn’t in Galar, but it is still usable in NatDex. If you want a format that sticks exactly to “GameFreak’s vision” go play regional.
We can use the deleted moves in NatDex. Anything not in the newest game retains the form it was in in its most recent appearance (gen 7 in this case). If gen 9 brings back megas and change how they work, then we now use gen 9 megas. If they stay out again, we keep using gen 7.Actually you're right in that MTG was a bad example! But my concern is what if-or more likely, when-Gamefreak brings back returning mechanics like Megas, Z-moves, etc. in DLC 1/2 or even the next game (more likely the latter since the former would likely bring up a lot of confusing situations) along with the changes we see to movepools and certain moves, what if said changes still persist? Of course this doesn't necessarily apply to Nat Dex right now, but DLC are coming out soon and who knows.
We can argue over how Dynamax and Megas and Z-moves would all be implemented at the same time because frankly we don't know how and Gamefreak clearly avoided it for at least base S&S.
...hold up, I could be totally misremembering -can we currently use Hidden Power/Pursuit on mons in Nat Dex OU? In Teambuilder at least the options still exist.
What makes AG isn't individual Pokemon, it's the ability to do anything you can within the cartridge.
So then we should use Galar AG instead of NatDex AG because adding more Pokémon does not matter and because Galar AG is now going to get good by adding more Pokémon.The National Dex format made sense initially, given that we didn't expect many formerly viable Pokemon to return, and the format was borderline identical to Ubers, but now that we know of what's happening, I really don't see a reason for remaining with NatDex.