Does anyone else find that the 270/404 numbers have lost validity?

Funky Monk

Because, to an extent, I have. For a long time Heracross was used as the benchmark for a competitive EV spread of the majority of pokemon from ~Base 80 - ~Base 100 speed (Jolly Mamo, Lucario, Mixmence, not to mention just about every Choice Scarfer who could hit that speed). But the metagame has changed around us, and I feel that these numbers are no longer nearly as useful to run as before.

For comparison, back in October (when Shoddy started publishing usage statistics, still long after the analyses were written) Heracross was #8 in unweighted usage. Undeniably a top-tier OU in this respect, and crucial to counter. But his use has plummeted since (to consistently about #20) then thanks to Gliscor's rise to power. More importantly, Lucario's overwhelming rise to claim the spot as (arguably) the second or third most potent sweeper in OU has mostly userped the bug in terms of importance to counter. Lucario is faster, trades an additional BP 120 STAB attack for a badass priority move and Crunch (vs Night Slash), and the ability to sweep from both sides.

I'm sorry, I need to wrap this up (gotta get to school may edit later I guess), but anyway, my point is that there are now more important threats to consider outspeeding than Heracross, especially in the department of Scarfing (Chomp, 'Gar, though I don't think anything Scarfs that would), and as such, people need to be more aware of them when designing their EV Spreads. Discuss?
 
stuff like 270 is a useful benchmark for when you've got a couple of extra evs and want to outspeed something or other. CBadamant hera is actually the hera i see the most often so i dont mind using 270 for various pokes, but yeah it's kind of overhyped, much like leftovers barriers for hp.

other "obsolete" benchmars include jolly tar/medicham. i say "obsolete" because alot of it is leftovers from "adv" teambuilding mentality

anyways, outspeeding things is never bad. i like to use this thread http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23432 in conjunction with commnon sense when constructing spreads.

max hp on tar is awesome, even if blissey never stays in, so that's up to you. as for cm jirachi, 101 subs is awesome, as well as less used stuff like subpass celebi/vaporeon.
 
Heh, my new speed benchmark is 280. Timid Heatrans and Adamant Lucarios running everywhere :(

404 was also never a benchmark so much as just the number reached for max HP lol. I guess the whole 101 HP subs thing is cool too.

A more significant benchmarks is 269 SpA for non STAB Ice Beams to always OHKO 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp. I always find myself using that.
 
Just like any magic speed number in the age of Choice Scarf, it's not concrete. Then again, beating Heracross is something many, many things want to do, and it's always a good start to beat most everything without a choice scarf out of the water. If you don't think Heracross is a top-tier OU because it has a decent counter to it, then that's honestly kinda nuts. I'm still watching out for him with magic numbers.
 
I definately use 280/420 as the new magic number. It removes heracross, lucario, and most of the things playing the I'm a DDer with 272 speed > 271 speed > 270 speed, this taking salamence out of the picture and dragonite down with him. 420 also outspeeds the rare porygon-z and scarf roserade, and the only things that will be faster really are Kingdra (never know what it's damn speed is), Scarfgar, Scarfzelf, Deoxys, and Scarfchomp.
 
I don't think 280 and 420 are all that great, honestly.

Jolly Mamoswine is one of the things that can ruin you if you're running a lot of pokemon in the 223-283 range (outspeeding neutral nature 90s and all the pokemon that run 270 is huge). Of course, it's still going to have a field day with the faster dragons and weaker pokemon anyhow due to Ice Shard. Extremely dangerous.

Also, keep in mind that scarf Porygon-Z, Roserade, and Lucario will often run a +speed nature to outspeed Adamant Scarfchomp. Scarfing is a lot less about outspeeding base 130s now than it is about outspeeding everything on the opponent's team (hence why something like scarf Azelf is seeing a lot of play).


Currently, the best magic number seems to still be the 223 Bulky Gyara. It doesn't get much better than that.
 
On the contrary. 223/334 is a poor magic number as Gyarados and Scarf Machamp are the only pokemon that run it. 244/366 is a better magic number as it outspeeds Tyranitar, Azelf, Gengar, Infernape, Raikou, and Starmie for Dragon Dancers.
 
228 is a good number for Agility/Rock Polish users, as it allows them to beat Adamant Scarfchomp. That's the number I use for Ice Punch Agiligross.
 
I'd rather use the extra 16 EVs and hit 244, to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar (which many of you say is irrelevant, but is quite happily enjoying a spot on my team).
 
Agreed. I always shoot for things like 245 speed on Modest Heatran so I can Metal Sound on the switch and then OHKO with Earth Power (I believe I still need a minimum of two layers of spikes, but still, it really fucks with him).
 
I don't use those numbers in particular if I do not need to outspeed Heracross, I use other numbers which help me outspeed things that I actually need it to. Or I just max speed.
 
I'd like to flesh out my 244/5 speed a little more.

Generally the things that are EV'd to have that speed have a legitimate reason to...as in, they'll either be responsible for countering or forced into facing off against Tyranitar. Breloom needs to at least out-Spore him (if not Mach Punch or Brick Breaking), BulkyLuc (though who uses him I dunno) needs to be able to switch in on the stab attacks and guarantee the OHKO w/ Close Combat, Metagross wants to out-Earthquake...and then there's my Heatran example. The idea is that facing Tyranitar is going to be a common occurence (and one they can win, if EV'd right) for these pokes, and they need to be ready.
 
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