Slowbro is amazing in the meta. It's one of the most reliable answers to Machamp, doesn't fear getting pursuit trapped due to its huge physical bulk, and Regenerator is a godsend when you don't have time to heal. A set of Scald/Psyshock/Slack Off/Thunder Wave will really help against Dragonite as you can paralyze it and then switch to Clefable (not having to worry about Iron Head flinches anymore). Slowbro's moveset can also be tailored to suit your team's needs so moves like Toxic/Calm Mind/Ice Beam aren't out of the question.
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[DONE] KANTO CLASSIC: Post your results!
- Thread starter DragonWhale
- Start date
Pretty much everyone uses a physically defensive Clef, so I'll just assume you're using that already
EDIT, you just said you are so yea. Slowbro would definitely work, it's great in this meta. I have a very physically defensive Nidoqueen. Never ran the calc, but she should be able to tank an unboosted Icicle Spear from Cloyster as well as +1 EQ from DNite. She can then deal great damage with either Ice Beam(for DNite,) or either Sludge Wave or T-Bolt for Cloyster. Counter also deals with them.
Electrode outspeeds DNite at +1(pretty sure,) and obviously unboosted Cloyster. SE STAB takes out Cloyster even with a measly base 80 SpA, and HP Ice or Foul Play may do the trick against DNite if it's weakened. T-Wave ruins it at the cost of your Electrode. Arcanine can kinda deal with both provided they're not highly boosted and WoW hits. Blastoise should also be fine against them, but it ain't that good.
You want it either way, but especially for you it's important to have Stealth Rock.
On a separate note, 6tennis, I'm calling you out for saying Nidoqueen is worse than Nidoking. Her greater bulk means she's way better for setting rocks, while being slower doesn't matter so much cause King is sorta slow too, and at least. queen can afford to be slow. Lower offenses suck, but she's still quite strong, and Nidoking's niche in Sucker Punch is largely irrelevant cause that's kinda expected on it and thus easy to play around(I.e. Sub Zam and WoW Gengar.)
Been checking into Smogon's team building calculator and have been having a heck of a time finding a good Pokémon to take on Clefable. Best I've come across is Gengar. Anything else I can look into? I've checked Snorlax, but if Clefable has Focus Blast on it, it can take it out too easy.
They run Focus Blast? Never seen that, and they shouldn't be running it since Clef has way better options. Tentacruel with Haze deals with Clef also.
Yea it was an example. Just saw how it would affect some of the ideas I was thinking of.
Thanks for the Tentacruel idea. Might look into it. Would having it have Liquid Ooze be a good option?
Technically Clear Body would be better for preventing SpA drops from Moonblast, but Liquid Ooze is better overall, despite being practically useless.
Ah good point. I'll have to see if I have a Clear Body one.
To add on to what Omastar said, Clear Smog + Taunt Weezing also renders the Stored Power variant of Clefable useless against it.
Also, I'm surprised you're scared of Focus Blast Clefable. Despite it being a super effective move, it shouldn't do that much to a specially-defensive behemoth such as Snorlax, especially if it ever hits with that 70% accuracy...
I checked, and your Nidoqueen (252 HP / +84 Def) has a 6% chance of falling to Jolly Icicle Spear, and 37% chance if Adamant.
Dragonite also lives an Ice Beam + Sucker Punch combo from Nidoqueen, so some ballsy players might opt for the DD infront of it, and as soon as they see you try and use Counter they're gonna click it again...
I seriously think you're overhyping Counter in his meta. Maybe it could work in 3v3 where surprise kills get you heaps of momentum, but here in 6v6 it doesn't really do anything for you, as you're just left with a 1-5% Nidoqueen that can't do shit anymore. Also, if you're spending a turn setting Rocks (which your set does), you're likely taking damage on that turn and therefore won't have enough health to use Counter!
Electrode does not outspeed +1 Jolly Dnite (the most common build).
Pretty pointless callout imo. Nidoking outclasses Nidoqueen offensively, and that's all you should be using either of them for. There are way better rocks setters in Aerodactyl, Golem, Clefable and Rhydon. Nidoqueen's slightly better bulk (only granted by going 252 HP / 0 Spe, which Nidoking can also do but yeah it's better to go max speed) is kinda useful, but tbh if you wanna use either of them it's because of Sheer Force to hit hard, and in that case Nidoking is better. If Nidoqueen got Horn Drill then ok you'd have a case, but even Nidoking beats it in that regard...
I haven't really had much success with Counter unfortunately. In a perfect world Nidoqueen sets up rocks and then trades 1 for 1, or better. That said, what should I do? Replace Queen altogether? Run Ice Beam over Counter? But with no SpA investment it hits few things for very much damage, and running SpA greatly compromises bulk. The SpD is more expendable than the Def, so I could move it all to SpA I guess.
Good to know that about Electrode. I was thinking about using it, and while I was pretty sure Zapdos was way better, now I don't have doubts. Zapdos is amazing, especially for a Poke that has such a sucky ability.
Could Super Fang be good on Nidoqueen? Granted her damage output is still fairly high, so idk. Charm in conjunction with rocks would definitely force switches and rack up residual damage, and be really funny against DDers, but it doesn't seem very useful in general. Shadow Ball gives me a way to actually hurt Gengar, while being stronger than STABs vs Slowbro and the like.
Slowbro
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psyshock
- Scald / Calm Mind
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
- Slack Off
Alternatively, I made a more specially-defensive spread:
Slowbro
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 76 Def / 4 SpA / 180 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Psyshock
- Scald / Calm Mind
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
- Slack Off
This spread avoids the 2HKO from Alakazam's Shadow Ball and allows you to get off a T-Wave and Slack Off on it. You're still physically bulky enough to come in on Machamp fairy easily as well as taking boosted Dragon Claws from Dragonite with no problem.
Are Rapidash or Hypno viable?
Rapidash has a pretty good movepool and is fairly fast, and can live a hit from most faster stuff and then OHKO(I.e. Zam's Psyshock. Rapidash could then OHKO with Flare Blitz or Megahorn.) Low Kick helps with Snorlax, and it even has some nice status moves like WoW and Hypnosis.
Here are some calcs:
Hypno has a gigantic movepool, and is only 2HKOd by Gengar's Shadow Ball, unlike some Psychics(fully specially defensive actually has a small chance to only be 3HKOd without rocks.) It has so many moves that idk what's best. Thunder Wave should probably be on any set, while you could maybe try to boost that low Def with Barrier and heal with Drain Punch, or Rest if you don't use Insomnia(which is kinda useless for Hypno because Snorlax is a much better answer to Venomoth, the main sleep abuser.) Magic Coat seems like an option to bounce Stealth Rock and status, while Psych up would be funny for Clef and Snorlax(if you run a physical fighting move.) Hypno can also set up Screens, or set up with Calm Mind. Swagger pairs well with T-Wave, and Flatter is more accurate. Still, low stats all around are a pretty big deal, and hurt Hypno's viability, especially in conjunction with mostly useless abilities. I'm curious to see if anyone else thinks Hypno is any good, or if they've faced one and how it did(same for Rapidash.)
Rapidash has a pretty good movepool and is fairly fast, and can live a hit from most faster stuff and then OHKO(I.e. Zam's Psyshock. Rapidash could then OHKO with Flare Blitz or Megahorn.) Low Kick helps with Snorlax, and it even has some nice status moves like WoW and Hypnosis.
Here are some calcs:
252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 93-111 (66.4 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 93-111 (66.4 - 79.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Rapidash Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 208-246 (160 - 189.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 156-184 (120 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You'll likely live the Psyshock, though you may either kill yourself with recoil or miss with Megahorn. Still not too bad.
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 129-153 (92.1 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Rapidash Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 114-136 (81.4 - 97.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 129-153 (92.1 - 109.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 84-99 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pretty good against Jolteon, another Poke that's faster. Rapidash can run Adamant to make Flare Blitz always OHKO and Drill Run always OHKO after Stealth Rock. Adamant Rapidash can still outspeed max Spe 85s, but not 95s.
252 Atk Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 146-174 (104.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 130-154 (92.8 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Magnet Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 160-190 (102.5 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not surprising SE STAB OKOs, but the EQ calc is relevant since some people may think use it to not miss, thinking it OHKOs Rapidash, and you might live it and then OHKO with Wild Charge. Wild Charge is also relevant for paralyzed Aerodactyl.
252+ Atk Rapidash Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 86-102 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 110-132 (78.5 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You pretty much need Stealth Rock, or else for Slowbro to be statuses or else have taken a decent amount of prior damage, and even then you need some luck with hitting with Megahorn, but considering Rapidash is a frail physical attacker and Slowbro is very bulky on the physical side, this seems like a sorta important calc.
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 94-112 (67.1 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Rapidash Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 162-192 (60.6 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Snorlax can only win if it has Curse boosts(and isn't Resting, or else has Sleep Talk and draws Body Slam,) gets lucky with Body Slam's paralysis effect, or else has some odd move like EQ. The problem here is just Rapidash has bad 4MSS, and t doesn't do much of anything without Low Kick.
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 127-151 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 118-139 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Primeape is super rare, but the point here is that it's kinda a surprising calc. Rapidash should use Drill Run or something first to soften up Primeape without taking recoil and falling into KO range.
There are other good calcs, but this takes a while so that's probably enough. Im not surprised no one uses Rapidash, but I also think it could be viable. What moves should it run though? There are at least 10 moves it'd really like to use. Flare Blitz is a given, Low Kick is necessary for Snorlax, while also hitting some other stuff harder than anything else, and Megahorn is really strong with nice coverage, especially against those pesky Psychics. Should Hypnosis be the last slot? It's not very reliable, but it's a decent choice against most anything, while any attack in the fourth slot leaves you walled by some stuff.
252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 93-111 (66.4 - 79.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Rapidash Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 208-246 (160 - 189.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 156-184 (120 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You'll likely live the Psyshock, though you may either kill yourself with recoil or miss with Megahorn. Still not too bad.
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 129-153 (92.1 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Rapidash Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 114-136 (81.4 - 97.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 129-153 (92.1 - 109.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 84-99 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pretty good against Jolteon, another Poke that's faster. Rapidash can run Adamant to make Flare Blitz always OHKO and Drill Run always OHKO after Stealth Rock. Adamant Rapidash can still outspeed max Spe 85s, but not 95s.
252 Atk Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 146-174 (104.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 130-154 (92.8 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Magnet Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 160-190 (102.5 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not surprising SE STAB OKOs, but the EQ calc is relevant since some people may think use it to not miss, thinking it OHKOs Rapidash, and you might live it and then OHKO with Wild Charge. Wild Charge is also relevant for paralyzed Aerodactyl.
252+ Atk Rapidash Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 86-102 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 110-132 (78.5 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You pretty much need Stealth Rock, or else for Slowbro to be statuses or else have taken a decent amount of prior damage, and even then you need some luck with hitting with Megahorn, but considering Rapidash is a frail physical attacker and Slowbro is very bulky on the physical side, this seems like a sorta important calc.
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 94-112 (67.1 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Rapidash Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 162-192 (60.6 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Snorlax can only win if it has Curse boosts(and isn't Resting, or else has Sleep Talk and draws Body Slam,) gets lucky with Body Slam's paralysis effect, or else has some odd move like EQ. The problem here is just Rapidash has bad 4MSS, and t doesn't do much of anything without Low Kick.
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 127-151 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 118-139 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Primeape is super rare, but the point here is that it's kinda a surprising calc. Rapidash should use Drill Run or something first to soften up Primeape without taking recoil and falling into KO range.
There are other good calcs, but this takes a while so that's probably enough. Im not surprised no one uses Rapidash, but I also think it could be viable. What moves should it run though? There are at least 10 moves it'd really like to use. Flare Blitz is a given, Low Kick is necessary for Snorlax, while also hitting some other stuff harder than anything else, and Megahorn is really strong with nice coverage, especially against those pesky Psychics. Should Hypnosis be the last slot? It's not very reliable, but it's a decent choice against most anything, while any attack in the fourth slot leaves you walled by some stuff.
Hypno has a gigantic movepool, and is only 2HKOd by Gengar's Shadow Ball, unlike some Psychics(fully specially defensive actually has a small chance to only be 3HKOd without rocks.) It has so many moves that idk what's best. Thunder Wave should probably be on any set, while you could maybe try to boost that low Def with Barrier and heal with Drain Punch, or Rest if you don't use Insomnia(which is kinda useless for Hypno because Snorlax is a much better answer to Venomoth, the main sleep abuser.) Magic Coat seems like an option to bounce Stealth Rock and status, while Psych up would be funny for Clef and Snorlax(if you run a physical fighting move.) Hypno can also set up Screens, or set up with Calm Mind. Swagger pairs well with T-Wave, and Flatter is more accurate. Still, low stats all around are a pretty big deal, and hurt Hypno's viability, especially in conjunction with mostly useless abilities. I'm curious to see if anyone else thinks Hypno is any good, or if they've faced one and how it did(same for Rapidash.)
A friend of mine was theorymoning a hypno set with insomnia rest and skill swap. So you can rest when you dont have insomnia and then when you switch out it cures your sleep, basically like natural cure. Interesting but pretty gimmicky.
That actually sounds really fun, never would've thought of that. Hypno could also maybe be a good Baton Pass receiver. Quiver Dances from Venomoth would be pretty great, as would Acid Armors from Vaporeon, or even Curses. Too bad it doesn't have reliable recovery and Wish is event.
I'm pretty late replying to this but I actually think the 30% to poison can help out a lot sometimes. Especially since clef can recover a couple times and beat you 1v1 if you get low rolls. Poison damage turns those low rolls into guaranteed 2hko's. I've also found myself going for Poison Jab against fat things like Slowbro I expect to switch in, fishing for that 30% to wear them down, really similarly to scald. And, you can use that filler slot on Payback to actually OHKO Gengar on the switch instead of just doing about half.
Fair point. Guess the calculator is what is a bit daunting. Especially when not counting moves that can bring down accuracy.
Just checked out some of my Snorlaxes. I have one that has a Serious nature, good Defense and Sp. Defense, can't be better (relatively superior) and has Immunity. Would it be good to try to raise it some more?
Rapidash is pretty fast, but it might still be pretty weak against Water types. Hypno. Definitely. It seems like a beefier Alakazam. Still has plenty of speed in it. I say go for it!
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Why are you still looking for junk mons in your PC? No, a Serious Snorlax with 2 perfect IVs is not good enough. We've provided you with the resources to go and get better Pokemon, but it seems you're actively ignoring our advice at this point.
It's not junk to me. And I'm not ignoring it, I have a lot on my plate in real life... so I'm making due with what I have. I don't have the time to go and breed 'perfect' Mon. I wish I did. Really. But I don't. So a lot of times, 2 to 3 iv mon are the best I can breed.
I definitely agree that the chance to poison Clef is worth considering Posion Jab > Heavy Slam, since almost all of them run Unaware. But if your goal is to poison Slowbro with Machamp to wear it down throughout the match, Toxic would be the better option, as you're gambling with a 90% chance to badly poison as opposed to 30% for regular poison (with negligible damage). Either way, Slowbro is a major hurdle for Machamp to overcome.
And you're not even gambling cause of No Guard. I don't give Toxic enough credit. I always want T-Wave or WoW, but there is a giant list of situations where I would've won if I had Toxic.
Yeah i've actually considered toxic but I just find it hard to fit into Machamps moveset. I like all of its coverage options more. Stone Edge, Payback and Poison Jab are all really valuable imo.
The chance to poison slowbro is just a minor thing. Not one of the deciding factors to running Poison Jab.