Donphan (EV Change)

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alan told me this was the proper format.

Anyway, Choice Band Donphan (and really any Donphan) should be running 88 Speed to outrun Clefable, Weezing, and all those dudes. 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe is solid for Choice Band, and it is up to the user to decide whether to run max attack or HP.
This seems more of an "ev race" ie one user can run more evs to outrun the other and eventually you get to a point where it's more useful to run the defensive evs than to invest in the speed. It's worth mentioning in these situations I guess, but it shouldn't be the recommended spread. Speed situations are just fucked and users should decide on an individual basis how much speed they want to run and "hope" their opponent decided to run less.

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its definitely not an ev race. 88 speed is pretty vital to get the spin off on weezing / clefable / etc, or 2hko clefable with cb eq or weezing with head smash. it should be the main on cb at least.
Donphan can run 84 Speed EVs to beat 0 Speed base 60 Pokemon (Clefable / Weezing), which wouldn't be considered Speed creep. 88 is Speed creep, though, and won't fly.


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I'm pretty sure it is a Speed creep unless you're outrunning Max Speed something. Otherwise they can just invest more Speed and beat you (which is the reason why we don't do Speed creeping in analyses).
I don't see a problem with causing this kind of "Speed creep." Choice Band Donphan is an offensive Pokemon. It doesn't NEED HP EVs, although they may be very helpful. Weezing is a defensive Pokemon. If it wants to get into a Speed race with Donphan, go ahead. In the end, while Weezing may "win", it will be left with few Defense EVs which makes it easier for other attackers. So it is pretty much a win for an offensive team, one that would have Choice Band Donphan. And it isn't like Weezing's analysis will be instantaneously updated to outspeed 88 Speed Donphan.

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Outrunning a min speed Pokemon is not considered Speed Creep. 84 Evs would be acceptable, and is already used for the OU CB set.

MetaNight and umbarsc: if you wish to argue that speed creep is non-problematic please take it to the appropriate thread. The standards are clear there, discuss there if you think they are suboptimal.
No, it was decided that outspeeding min Speed defensive Pokemon isn't speed creep. Even running enough for 4 Spe Pokemon (leftover from 252/252 spread) isn't Speed creep, although if we're really enforcing this speed creep rule then those 4 EVs would go elsewhere and we'd only have to aim for min Speed.

This is why enforcing strict rules about "speed creep" is dumb. It's obvious that for bulky hard hitters, running just enough speed to beat certain walls is optimal, and for purely defensive Pokemon, it's best to not worry about speed and invest it all in your defenses. Besides one or two examples (notably lead Metagross/Empoleon), the issue of "speed creep" hasn't presented in any empirical problems, and having these rules just makes things more difficult for the analysis writer, and in general is very pointless and pedantic (like the it/him/her pronoun issue).

If the person writing the next Clefable/Weezing tries to run 8 Spe to outrun CB Donphan, then that's where we'd cut it off, not here.


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Yes, outspeed minimum speed Pokemon is not an example of speed creep; in fact, I would even say outspeed 4 Spe variants of those Pokemon is not speed creep. However, anything beyond that is.

Regardless, I'm really not sure what the advantage of implementing this change would be. Clefable might Encore your stealth rock or something, but you are giving up a LOT of bulk to avoid that fairly workable scenario. You can't touch Weezing anyway, so that doesn't even matter. What other base 60s are there...Porygon2? I suppose it would slightly matter there, but really...I'm not seeing that the advantages of doing this outweight the disadvantages, especially when Donphan avoids quite a few KOs only by the skin of its...tusks already. I can totally understanding EVing to outrun Omastar though!


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Well I use 84 speed on Donphan to beat Clefable and it's really useful. sticking the remaining EVs in Defense rather than HP helps Donphan retain a lot of its tanking abilities since Donphan shouldn't really be taking special hits all that often. 2HKOing Clefable while outspeeding other base 50s is a pretty sweet deal imo and you're not losing that much bulk.
How is outrunning min speed mons not a speed creep? People see in the analysis that the normal spread outspeeds 0/4 speed and just throw 8 speed on. That's definitely a speed creep.

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Please stay on topic. Future posts relating to the policy of what counts as speed creep and should be avoided in this thread will be deleted (this includes those saying this set is not an example of speed creep as well as the reverse), I have previously provided a link to this thread in which we came up with the current guidelines. It is still open, if you don't like the current situation bring up your arguments there.

The only posts I want to see here are those with competitive opinions and arguments as to whether this spread is an improvement on the current one. I have edited to OP from 88 to 84 EVs to comply with the current guidelines.
this is a solid ev spread and has been clutch for me quite a few times

you 2HKO clefable with EQ and do 43.4% - 51.2% to 252/0 weezing with head smash which means you can finish them off pretty nicely (or even counter clefable in a pinch). also beating azumarill/aggron/rhyperior who like to creep everywhere is a benefit but i guess we can't really mention that cause of the SPEED CREEP RULES :(

this should definitely be the main spread on the cb set since that cleanly 2hkos sdef weezing (even 252/56+ or whatever eo likes, most other people use less defense), and the lack of leftovers means you shouldn't be trying to tank toxicroak/rhyperior (hey you might even be faster with rhyperior with this spread). however i can definitely see the merits of 252 hp on the spinner set; jolly croak never ohkoes with sr, just as an example.

- add to optional changes section
- change to main spread on cb

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