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Gen 4 Donphan Lead TSpikes

https://pokepast.es/27df03f3cfc9f43f

I need some insight on this team I built, I feel like I've got something here but I can't quite tell what's missing. To be honest, a lot of instances where I've lost have been a result of either some sort of unfortunate circumstances (status/untimely crit) or careless play on my part. Donphan does a really good job being a pest in the lead slot and Heatran + Milo is a difficult defensive core to break, with Rose support to clear t-spikes.

Key Threats:
-Hazards outside the lead + spin block
-Last mon DDtar (or really if Metagross is out and Milo is chipped)
-Flygon variants (and more broadly earthquake)
-Mix Ape
-Offensive Starmie
-RNG (there is only so much you can control here but given the team is pretty slow, opp does get more bites at the apple for nonsense)


Here is the team:

1784068499994.png

Donphan
Adamant
-Rapid Spin
-Knock Off
-Earthquake
-Ice Shard

I wanted rapid spin support for the team and after playing around with the order settled on a donphan lead concept to prevent turn 1 hazards. Donphan nicely shuts down the garden variety lead azelf and aerodactyl. Some opponents will try and overthink what Donphan is going to do, and in the meantime you get decent chip with rapid spin. Aero is particularly vulnerable to just clicking rapid spin because you can eat whatever offense it might throw your way and then remove it with ice shard without hazards. You also get to neutralize lead skarmory (break sash and prevent hazards). Ice shard gives this team priority, which it needs because we're pretty slow. Dragonite is kind of a sticky lead match up because a combination of draco and extreme speed will always kill no matter the spread, and switching into tran is risky if you're wrong on the set.

1784068866457.png

Metagross (Scarf)
Timid
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-Explosion
-Trick

Initially this was trick - iron ball but the team desperately needed a stop gap to dragon dancing tar and other boosting sweepers. Metagross is essential to both the offensive and defense backbone of the team. If the match-up is stall/something slower, trick is necessary to let Metagross change out roles. Running timid lets Metagross outspeed conventional boosted gyara, Dnite, and Tyranitar. Post trick, the speed tier also definitely appreciated. Metagross is also a nice switch in to stall teams relying on specs lati to break opposing cores because it sets up a free trick opportunity.

1784069241181.png

Latias (Specs)
Timid
-Draco Meteor
-Surf
-Trick
-Healing Wish

Specs lati is good at what it does, I think the most difficult usage here is that Lati also provides some defensive utility (levitate) that gives opponents opportunities to switch in Tyranitar. The set is fairly standard, and H-Wish sets up win conditions late in the game when there is usually a wall hanging on for life capable of finishing off the opponent. I'm running timid for the speed, which we are otherwise sorely lacking.

1784069472224.png

Milotic
Bold, 252 Def
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Recover
-Haze

Milotic is a good bulky water with the toolset to synergize with other team members. Haze stops gyarados, suicune, and sometimes tyranitar from setting up and running amok. Milotic functions best when a toxic spike is sitting out on the field. Milotic in tandem with Heatran also does a good job of shutting down most Jirachi. If Jirachi wants to paralyze Milo, it becomes significantly more difficult to luck through. In my testing though, poor Milotic has been the victim of heinous crit after heinous crit. Some of those are unfortunate, but the team style I think is going to be more vulnerable given the speed and tendency to take repeated hits.

1784069817401.png

Roserade
Modest, 252 SpA
-Toxic Spikes
-Energy Ball
-Hidden Power Ice
-Stun Spore

Roserade and Milotic play well together - Milotic appreciates the toxic spike clearing/setting and rose appreciates cover from opposing Heatran. The EV spread is one I'm not really too confident about, I don't feel like SpDef rose is the right call because we already have a pretty stout defense, but it feels a little wasteful given that rose isn't attacking all too often. HP Ice over fire because I'm more concerned with dragonite than I am scizor. Stun spore is a nice option to catch incoming steel/levitating, and I prefer energy ball over leaf storm to not invite in trouble. Rose is a pretty essential partner to Milotic (and donphan) on the toxic spike clearing alone.

1784070060121.png

Heatran
Calm 252 SpDef
-Stealth Rock
-Lava Plume
-Protect
-Explosion

SpDef heatran is a staple on a lot of toxic spikes teams. The set is fairly straightforward but it provides crucial support against Latias and can explode late game or to try and get a shot at catching clef by surprise. I didn't want to put stealth rock on Donphan and it was difficult to fit on metagross, but Heatran gets lots of opportunities to switch in (rotom will come in on Donphan and usually try to burn). Protect also helps stall down poison damage and rain turns.



It's difficult to swap out any individual because the synergy, particularly among Milo - Roserade - Heatran, is pretty strong. Metagross provides the team with another steel type, and I am pretty sure I need rapid spin support here. Running any of the other options presents significant drawbacks. I went to play a few games to find replays where the defensive core got broken but of course I went on a win streak against quality opponents. Here are those replays:

Ransom II Regal (Ladder King !!!) - Donphan does its job on Aero
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2649274234

megastaruniverse (1503) - Donphan takes one for the team again against Aero
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2649286508-32j8ho8o5j8acip24lynbv3dyut1u72pw

kamaldeen (1582) - Donphan on Donphan violence, Roserade ends up being pretty crucial
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2649288020-62p07nnmnnikeaprfje3me6vn7fqkdipw

ablacita - Donphan holds off Azelf, again
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2649291132
 
Hello! Here are my initial thoughts after reading your RMT:

- Try Head Smash over Knock Off on Donphan. Head Smash is a powerful move that Donphan can use to threaten the Ghosts, making spinning in the long term much more feasible.

- DD Tar should not be a problem with both Donphan, Haze Milo, and Scarf Meta. I think you just need to put yourself in positions where at least one of those mons is healthy enough to take on Ttar.

- You could run a Bronzong on this team over Metagross. That gives you a better matchup against MixGon and Eq. There's a lot of different Bronzong sets and moves you could run, like Tox-Tect, Trick-IB, Trick-Lagging Tail, Rocks, Gyro Ball, Payback, Hp Ice, Explosion. You'd definitely need to play around with its set and decide what you think is best.

- Here’s a Roserade spread that I like. The bulk lets it live Starmie’s Hydro + IB after Rocks, and the Spe investment lets it hit 300. There are 4 spare Evs in SpD since I had this on an HP Ground Rose, so do with them what you want. Even uninvested, Rose hits hard with its base 125 SpA stat so I think investing in its bulk is more worthwhile.

Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Timid Nature

- Offensive SD Scizor looks really troubling for your team, so I would run a faster SpD Heatran here.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 208 HP / 140 SpD / 160 Spe
Calm Nature

- Why exactly is Milo here? Apart from having more SpD than Quag, I think Quag is overall a better pick. It's Sand immune, Rock Resistant, and does a better job of taking Eqs than Milo does. It is also a much better switch against Cb Tar. However, Milo is better into MixGon because of its higher SpD. But if you do want to try out Quag, this is a set that I think would work on this team.

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 SpD
Impish / Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic / Ice Punch / Ice Beam

The SpD evs make Timid Suicune's +1 Ice Beam a 3HKO. Even with Quag's poor SpA, Ice Beam is better against Gliscor than Ice Punch is.

- If you do drop Metagross, play around with your Scarfer. This team can use both Scarf Rose and Tran. See which one you like more. Scarf Tran does allow you to play around MixApe.

-You mentioned getting haxed a lot, but by what exactly?

-Why did you drop a Ghost?

- Tycarter has a Rose-Don team featured here if you want to get some inspiration for your build. BKC also has this team with an interesting Bronzong set.
 
Hello! Here are my initial thoughts after reading your RMT:

- Try Head Smash over Knock Off on Donphan. Head Smash is a powerful move that Donphan can use to threaten the Ghosts, making spinning in the long term much more feasible.

- DD Tar should not be a problem with both Donphan, Haze Milo, and Scarf Meta. I think you just need to put yourself in positions where at least one of those mons is healthy enough to take on Ttar.

- You could run a Bronzong on this team over Metagross. That gives you a better matchup against MixGon and Eq. There's a lot of different Bronzong sets and moves you could run, like Tox-Tect, Trick-IB, Trick-Lagging Tail, Rocks, Gyro Ball, Payback, Hp Ice, Explosion. You'd definitely need to play around with its set and decide what you think is best.

- Here’s a Roserade spread that I like. The bulk lets it live Starmie’s Hydro + IB after Rocks, and the Spe investment lets it hit 300. There are 4 spare Evs in SpD since I had this on an HP Ground Rose, so do with them what you want. Even uninvested, Rose hits hard with its base 125 SpA stat so I think investing in its bulk is more worthwhile.

Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Timid Nature

- Offensive SD Scizor looks really troubling for your team, so I would run a faster SpD Heatran here.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 208 HP / 140 SpD / 160 Spe
Calm Nature

- Why exactly is Milo here? Apart from having more SpD than Quag, I think Quag is overall a better pick. It's Sand immune, Rock Resistant, and does a better job of taking Eqs than Milo does. It is also a much better switch against Cb Tar. However, Milo is better into MixGon because of its higher SpD. But if you do want to try out Quag, this is a set that I think would work on this team.

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 SpD
Impish / Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic / Ice Punch / Ice Beam

The SpD evs make Timid Suicune's +1 Ice Beam a 3HKO. Even with Quag's poor SpA, Ice Beam is better against Gliscor than Ice Punch is.

- If you do drop Metagross, play around with your Scarfer. This team can use both Scarf Rose and Tran. See which one you like more. Scarf Tran does allow you to play around MixApe.

-You mentioned getting haxed a lot, but by what exactly?

-Why did you drop a Ghost?

- Tycarter has a Rose-Don team featured here if you want to get some inspiration for your build. BKC also has this team with an interesting Bronzong set.

Hey thank you, these are really detailed notes. I made some of these changes this morning and pivoted from milo to quag to see if the team plays better. Milo also doesn't have as devastating a grass weakness but otherwise I think it's a good substitution.

As for the no ghost, I found it hard to play both Lat and Rotom at the same time. Keeping rocks/hazards on the field at all times feels less imperative than making sure the setters at least stay alive to reset if need be but maybe that's a play style deficiency.
 
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