Before I post, would a case of AV Slowbro vs. AV Slowking be valid?
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Resource Don't Use That; Use This (ORAS Version)
- Thread starter Aragorn the King
- Start date
- Status
Assault Vest Slowbro is legit (it got an OO mention in the analysis), but it's true Slowking does it better overall.
Not really. You're talking about two things with different movepool and defense spectrum.
Some guy PMed me for a battle the other day. He used this sigh...
Don't Use This:
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
Why it's bad:
Dragon Dance is pretty bad on Crawdaunt. The reason is that Crawdaunt has a lackluster Speed stat, and after a Dragon Dance it only hits 341 Speed, which is outsped by everything faster than Keldeo. With still such as low Speed stat, Crawdaunt won't be able to sweep like it wants to as it still gets outspeed by over half of the metagame. Moreover, Crawdaunt is more or less meant to be a balance and stall breaker, punching huge holes in the opponent's team, so Dragon Dance won't really benefit Crawdaunt much.
Instead, Use This:
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
Why it's better:
With Swords Dance, Crawdaunt hits significantly harder, and with such as massive boost it can tear apart defensive teams better. It also powers up Aqua Jet after a boost, so it won't be exactly deadweight against offense as well.
Don't Use This:
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
Why it's bad:
Dragon Dance is pretty bad on Crawdaunt. The reason is that Crawdaunt has a lackluster Speed stat, and after a Dragon Dance it only hits 341 Speed, which is outsped by everything faster than Keldeo. With still such as low Speed stat, Crawdaunt won't be able to sweep like it wants to as it still gets outspeed by over half of the metagame. Moreover, Crawdaunt is more or less meant to be a balance and stall breaker, punching huge holes in the opponent's team, so Dragon Dance won't really benefit Crawdaunt much.
Instead, Use This:
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
Why it's better:
With Swords Dance, Crawdaunt hits significantly harder, and with such as massive boost it can tear apart defensive teams better. It also powers up Aqua Jet after a boost, so it won't be exactly deadweight against offense as well.
Agree that SD is superior on Crawdaunt, but why still running a Jolly nature? Is there anything noteworthy that Crawdaunt can outspeed that justifies that speed over the extra power from Adamant?Some guy PMed me for a battle the other day. He used this sigh...
Don't Use This:
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
Why it's bad:
Dragon Dance is pretty bad on Crawdaunt. The reason is that Crawdaunt has a lackluster Speed stat, and after a Dragon Dance it only hits 341 Speed, which is outsped by everything faster than Keldeo. With still such as low Speed stat, Crawdaunt won't be able to sweep like it wants to as it still gets outspeed by over half of the metagame. Moreover, Crawdaunt is more or less meant to be a balance and stall breaker, punching huge holes in the opponent's team, so Dragon Dance won't really benefit Crawdaunt much.
Instead, Use This:
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
Why it's better:
With Swords Dance, Crawdaunt hits significantly harder, and with such as massive boost it can tear apart defensive teams better. It also powers up Aqua Jet after a boost, so it won't be exactly deadweight against offense as well.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Rotom-W, Mega Scizor, Gothitelle and Magnezone
To add onto that, defensive variants of Mega Venusaur and Heatran are also outsped if using a Jolly nature. In this meta Jolly is more or less preferred, but Adamant could be opted for for more power.
Gimmick
Electric potential
Jolly also outspeeds defensive Landorus-T and Jolly Azumarill. Adamant does get some notable kills though, like the potential to OHKO physically defensive Hippowdon at +0 while Jolly cannot, much higher chance to OHKO Mega Zard Y at +2 in Sun, >50% chance to OHKO Landorus after Stealth Rock, and just does all-around more damage, which is nice for slower teams. For example, Adamant does ~8% more than Jolly to standard Clefable. Idk how significant that is, but it's worth mentioning. But yeah, I agree that Jolly SD is generally the better choice in the current metagame.
Did you just implicitly approve the use of offensive Empoleon?
Also I wouldn't jump at everything you see on the ladder, especially lower down. If the moves don't even show up on the 1825 usage stats, it's probably not worth addressing.
Also I wouldn't jump at everything you see on the ladder, especially lower down. If the moves don't even show up on the 1825 usage stats, it's probably not worth addressing.
Actually, Specs Empoleon is still listed on the Dex analysis, albeit as an Other Option. Hydro Pump/Flash Cannon/Grass Knot/Ice Beam can put in some decent work. Decent. Because, as noted above, Magnezone (and Heatran) exists.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
I don't know if I understand your post correctly but are you saying Empoleon isn't good at all? SpD with Lefties / Chople Berry is an amazing set which is somewhere in the B ranks in the VR for a good reason
Referring to Empoleon's offensive capabilities; it packs a decently powerful punch and a solid movepool but suffers from low speed and crappy offensive typing.
Time for more shitty stuff I see and have to complain about.
Don't use this:
with Aerial Ace or Dragon Pulse (and Aerial Ace on anything not named Mega Aerodactyl in general)
Why it's bad: Seriously, what is the appeal of Aerial Ace? I get that it has 100% accuracy and no recoil, and Flying is a good attacking type, but that's where its positives end. It only has 60 BP, and most of the things that get it are better served by other stuff. Bisharp hates Fighting types? Iron Head does the same amount of damage hitting neutrally as a 2x effective Aerial Ace. Scizor gets the Technician boost? Flying synchronizes rather poorly with its STAB moves, and it would rather have Knock Off and/or Superpower. Gliscor gets STAB? It doesn't need Flying STAB all that much, and like Scizor, it prefers Knock Off, plus given Gliscor's status as a mainly defensive mon, Aerial Ace just wastes a moveslot. The only OU relevant thing that should ever run it is Mega Aerodactyl, and even then, it doesn't always do that (edit: 55.5% usage according to TIBot). As for Zard-X, Aerial Ace gets the Tough Claws boost, but it isn't STAB after mega evolving and has rather poor coverage. Offensive DD would rather run Earthquake to hit Heatran, and bulky DD only runs two attacks. Meanwhile, Zard-X does have 130 base Special Attack, which means you might be tempted to run a special move to lure in physical walls like, say, Hippowdon. However, Dragon Pulse is not the move for that, as it's just too damn weak.
Instead, use this:
with Earthquake/Roost instead of Aerial Ace or Overheat instead of Dragon Pulse
Why it's better: Like I mentioned before, Zard-X usually has Earthquake or Roost, depending on the set, alongside Dragon Dance and its two STABs. Of course, the lure set should use something better, too, and that is Overheat. Yes, I know the Special Attack drop sucks, but given that its only job is luring in and weakening stuff, once it's used, the drop becomes rather moot, and your target will probably be in KO range of your other attacks.
Don't use this:
with Aerial Ace or Dragon Pulse (and Aerial Ace on anything not named Mega Aerodactyl in general)
Why it's bad: Seriously, what is the appeal of Aerial Ace? I get that it has 100% accuracy and no recoil, and Flying is a good attacking type, but that's where its positives end. It only has 60 BP, and most of the things that get it are better served by other stuff. Bisharp hates Fighting types? Iron Head does the same amount of damage hitting neutrally as a 2x effective Aerial Ace. Scizor gets the Technician boost? Flying synchronizes rather poorly with its STAB moves, and it would rather have Knock Off and/or Superpower. Gliscor gets STAB? It doesn't need Flying STAB all that much, and like Scizor, it prefers Knock Off, plus given Gliscor's status as a mainly defensive mon, Aerial Ace just wastes a moveslot. The only OU relevant thing that should ever run it is Mega Aerodactyl, and even then, it doesn't always do that (edit: 55.5% usage according to TIBot). As for Zard-X, Aerial Ace gets the Tough Claws boost, but it isn't STAB after mega evolving and has rather poor coverage. Offensive DD would rather run Earthquake to hit Heatran, and bulky DD only runs two attacks. Meanwhile, Zard-X does have 130 base Special Attack, which means you might be tempted to run a special move to lure in physical walls like, say, Hippowdon. However, Dragon Pulse is not the move for that, as it's just too damn weak.
Instead, use this:
with Earthquake/Roost instead of Aerial Ace or Overheat instead of Dragon Pulse
Why it's better: Like I mentioned before, Zard-X usually has Earthquake or Roost, depending on the set, alongside Dragon Dance and its two STABs. Of course, the lure set should use something better, too, and that is Overheat. Yes, I know the Special Attack drop sucks, but given that its only job is luring in and weakening stuff, once it's used, the drop becomes rather moot, and your target will probably be in KO range of your other attacks.
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Not arguing with you that Aerial Ace or Dragon Pulse Zard X is bad (heck, I've seen a Fly Zard X, talk about bad). However, Aerial Ace on Bisharp and Scizor has it's uses since it can lure in and KO Keldeo and Chesnaught, both of which are hard checks to the two.Time for more shitty stuff I see and have to complain about.
Don't use this:
with Aerial Ace or Dragon Pulse (and Aerial Ace on anything not named Mega Aerodactyl in general)
Why it's bad: Seriously, what is the appeal of Aerial Ace? I get that it has 100% accuracy and no recoil, and Flying is a good attacking type, but that's where its positives end. It only has 60 BP, and most of the things that get it are better served by other stuff. Bisharp hates Fighting types? Iron Head does the same amount of damage hitting neutrally as a 2x effective Aerial Ace. Scizor gets the Technician boost? Flying synchronizes rather poorly with its STAB moves, and it would rather have Knock Off and/or Superpower. Gliscor gets STAB? It doesn't need Flying STAB all that much, and like Scizor, it prefers Knock Off, plus given Gliscor's status as a mainly defensive mon, Aerial Ace just wastes a moveslot. The only OU relevant thing that should ever run it is Mega Aerodactyl, and even then, it doesn't always do that (edit: 55.5% usage according to TIBot). As for Zard-X, Aerial Ace gets the Tough Claws boost, but it isn't STAB after mega evolving and has rather poor coverage. Offensive DD would rather run Earthquake to hit Heatran, and bulky DD only runs two attacks. Meanwhile, Zard-X does have 130 base Special Attack, which means you might be tempted to run a special move to lure in physical walls like, say, Hippowdon. However, Dragon Pulse is not the move for that, as it's just too damn weak.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Wouldn't Psycho Cut be better if you want to hit Keldeo? AA isn't a guaranteed 2HKO on Keldeo whereas Psycho Cut is. I get that AA is better for Chesnaught though, although +2 Psycho Cut can 2HKO.
Also what's the point of overheat on zard x? Flare blitz basically hits as hard as overheat does against hippo (and has more consistent damage output) and overheat gives up a valuable moveslot for something like earthquake / roost / iron tail. Other checks to zard x like rhyperior, slowbro, and quagsire all resist overheat anyways so I don't really know what overheat does besides OHKO ferro without taking recoil damage? Idk lol doesn't seem worth it to do that and give up EQ / roost.
From 1835 stats for Charizard's moves
From 1695
From 1500
Considering once you get into the 1695 range Overheat doesn't even show up, it's probably not a big deal, and there's a good chance that the ones that were using it were Charizard Ys, not Charizard Xs for the most part. Aerial Ace doesn't even show up in the 1500's. Once again, rather than jumping on this thread every time we see some weird set on the ladder, we should check the usage stats to see if it's an issue or if you just happen to find that one weird guy.
Code:
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Roost 84.191% |
| Flare Blitz 53.854% |
| Dragon Claw 51.716% |
| Dragon Dance 50.753% |
| Solar Beam 36.000% |
| Focus Blast 29.587% |
| Earthquake 21.445% |
| Fire Blast 19.711% |
| Flamethrower 17.942% |
| Will-O-Wisp 10.562% |
| Air Slash 3.571% |
| Fire Punch 3.520% |
| Other 17.148% |
+----------------------------------------+From 1695
Code:
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Roost 67.086% |
| Dragon Dance 52.442% |
| Dragon Claw 51.401% |
| Flare Blitz 44.888% |
| Solar Beam 39.087% |
| Earthquake 31.207% |
| Focus Blast 25.376% |
| Fire Blast 22.904% |
| Flamethrower 18.128% |
| Air Slash 7.740% |
| Fire Punch 7.548% |
| Will-O-Wisp 7.175% |
| Dragon Pulse 5.368% |
| Other 19.649% |
+----------------------------------------+From 1500
Code:
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Roost 47.187% |
| Solar Beam 43.573% |
| Dragon Dance 43.466% |
| Dragon Claw 43.176% |
| Flare Blitz 32.229% |
| Earthquake 30.704% |
| Flamethrower 25.314% |
| Fire Blast 23.938% |
| Focus Blast 22.254% |
| Air Slash 20.021% |
| Dragon Pulse 14.473% |
| Fire Punch 11.627% |
| Will-O-Wisp 4.228% |
| Outrage 3.957% |
| Ancient Power 3.805% |
| Thunder Punch 2.922% |
| Heat Wave 2.331% |
| Overheat 1.901% |
| Flame Charge 1.581% |
| Swords Dance 1.415% |
| Other 19.898% |
+----------------------------------------+Considering once you get into the 1695 range Overheat doesn't even show up, it's probably not a big deal, and there's a good chance that the ones that were using it were Charizard Ys, not Charizard Xs for the most part. Aerial Ace doesn't even show up in the 1500's. Once again, rather than jumping on this thread every time we see some weird set on the ladder, we should check the usage stats to see if it's an issue or if you just happen to find that one weird guy.
Air Slash is getting enough usage to show up in the 1835, what the hell. Resisted Fire Blast in sun hits harder than a neutral Air Slash. X_X
Gimmick
Electric potential
I feel like this thread is a bit overshadowed by the newer Role Comparison thread. I think it's more effective to compare the pros and cons of Pokemon who share the same role rather than to explicitly say to use one over the other when really they can be pretty team-specific. Like even Salamence vs Kyurem-B have differences since one is weak to Fighting while the other resists it. Intimidate and Teravolt can cause them to play differently as well. Kyurem-B outclasses Salamence in terms of sheer wallbreaking ability, but a team that wants a wallbreaking mixed Dragon that can check things like Breloom and Keldeo might prefer Salamence. Personally, I think there are very few instances of Pokemon that completely outclass another while both are viable in UU/OU. If a Pokemon truly and completely outclasses another Pokemon, it's bound to be a case where one of them is OU and the other is like NU or PU. Some examples: Azumarill vs Basculin as CB Aqua Jet users, Venusaur vs Sunflora as Sun sweepers, or Clefable vs Wigglytuff as bulky fairies. One of the few instances where one Pokemon completely outclasses another and both have a decent niche in OU is Alomomola vs Vaporeon as bulky water Wish passers. Alomomola surpasses Vaporeon in a Wishpassing role, but then you have to think Vaporeon has better SDef and is more powerful so it can use coverage options like Ice Beam. I think another good one from the archive is Sylveon over Florges. Can't think of a reason to use Florges over Sylveon.
Regarding the archive: Shadow Sneak Gallade has been gaining more acceptance as of late. I think I remember seeing AM post something in the Viability Rankings thread about how Shadow Sneak has its uses. I personally never use M-Gallade, but I can see why Sneak might be useful. Jolteon outspeeds the increasingly popular Weavile and still threatens Manaphy while Volt Absorb can punish Thundurus for going for Thunder Wave. I'm not justifying using Jolteon and I don't think I'd personally ever use it over Raikou anyway, but I feel like there has to be a team out there that's weak to Weavile that has a Raikou that would like a Jolteon. Idk, that could be pushing it. Donphan vs Hippo is weird - Donphan has Rapid Spin. Roserade vs every other Grass type: Roserade's niche is being discussed in the viability rankings thread atm. It has Toxic Spikes, nothing else does. BD Slurpuff vs BD Chesnaught: I haven't used either but their typings are very different and one is much much faster than the other after a BD. There's other stuff in the archive that I disagree with, but I pointed out the few that I know for a fact should not be there.
I made a post like this a few pages back, but the main difference is that here I suggest merging this thread and the Role Comparison thread. I'd love to see more activity on the Role Comparison thread, which is a much better aid to newer players as well as seasoned players looking to see a quick list of differences while teambuilding. I said this on my previous post, and I still stick to it: the only way to justify posting something here is if on every single team, you can say in a heartbeat, "replace that with this." No matter what else is on the team. Which isn't the case, I think, with a lot of these Pokemon. Plus, I see a lot of disagreements on the last few pages since I think people are posting just for the sake of posting. Case in point, the Role Comparison thread does a better job of portraying the differences in Pokemon that share a similar role with each other without saying that one is always better than the other. It's a bit more sympathetic toward teambuilding and allows for a lot more useful discussion.
Regarding the archive: Shadow Sneak Gallade has been gaining more acceptance as of late. I think I remember seeing AM post something in the Viability Rankings thread about how Shadow Sneak has its uses. I personally never use M-Gallade, but I can see why Sneak might be useful. Jolteon outspeeds the increasingly popular Weavile and still threatens Manaphy while Volt Absorb can punish Thundurus for going for Thunder Wave. I'm not justifying using Jolteon and I don't think I'd personally ever use it over Raikou anyway, but I feel like there has to be a team out there that's weak to Weavile that has a Raikou that would like a Jolteon. Idk, that could be pushing it. Donphan vs Hippo is weird - Donphan has Rapid Spin. Roserade vs every other Grass type: Roserade's niche is being discussed in the viability rankings thread atm. It has Toxic Spikes, nothing else does. BD Slurpuff vs BD Chesnaught: I haven't used either but their typings are very different and one is much much faster than the other after a BD. There's other stuff in the archive that I disagree with, but I pointed out the few that I know for a fact should not be there.
I made a post like this a few pages back, but the main difference is that here I suggest merging this thread and the Role Comparison thread. I'd love to see more activity on the Role Comparison thread, which is a much better aid to newer players as well as seasoned players looking to see a quick list of differences while teambuilding. I said this on my previous post, and I still stick to it: the only way to justify posting something here is if on every single team, you can say in a heartbeat, "replace that with this." No matter what else is on the team. Which isn't the case, I think, with a lot of these Pokemon. Plus, I see a lot of disagreements on the last few pages since I think people are posting just for the sake of posting. Case in point, the Role Comparison thread does a better job of portraying the differences in Pokemon that share a similar role with each other without saying that one is always better than the other. It's a bit more sympathetic toward teambuilding and allows for a lot more useful discussion.
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Agreeing with most of your post - I'm looking back at my own roserade vs grass types post and cringing - but even though it outspeeds Weavile I'm really not seeing what Jolteon's appeal is. Signal Beam doesn't even OHKO Weavile-
252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 218-257 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- which is kind of amazing, and Weavile either OHKOs on the switch with Knock Off/Icicle Crash or wears it down really badly with Ice Shard
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 121-144 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
So while it is an... admittedly really shaky check to Weavile, Jolteon doesn't like going up against it and due to the decreased bulk is getting worn down quicker and hence is not doing it's job as well as a pivot. At the point my team is Weavile-weak, has used up a mega slot and I have to sub out Raikou for Jolteon, I think at that point I'd rather look back at my team. Heck, I'd rather run Aura Sphere on Raikou than use Jolteon.
Gimmick
Electric potential
Oh yeah I definitely agree with you--Jolteon is insanely mediocre and I personally don't see much appeal, but Jolteon's speed does give it a super tiny niche over Raikou in terms of fast electrics. Here's a list of things taken from the OU Speed Tiers:
Some pretty notable things there, like Adamant +1 Gyarados/Altaria, Talonflame is a biggie (rofl well not really: +2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 258-304 (94.8 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO), Weavile, Pidgeot, Alakazam, Tornadus, etc. By no means am I justifying the use of Jolteon over Raikou in every circumstance, but I can't help but think (dream, I guess lol) that there's at least one team out there that wants a Jolteon instead of a Raikou. And like I said, I'm probably pushing it. But that's besides the point; the big picture is what I care about. The very small amount of Pokemon that truly outclass another when both are OU viable, imo, justify merging this thread with the role comparison thread.tnt bc i can't spell tnt's name fo shizzle said:
The increase in Speed definitely isn't worth the bulk loss though. The only relevant stuff in there are Weavile and Alakazam (since Tornadus and Pidgeot both lose to Raikou) and maybe Mega Altaria (but what are you going to do to it? Specs HP Ice doesn't even OHKO Offensive variants while it easily OHKOes back). So yeah, Jolteon really isn't all that good. But yeah, I get what you are trying to say about Role Comparison and how some Pokemon have niches that prevent them from being 100% outclassed by another Pokemon. However, some of the niches are not really enough to prevent it from being outclassed because that role is not significant enough in OU (like the Jolteon case) or it didn't perform that role well enough (Donphan Rapid Spin vs Excadrill or Starmie Rapid Spin)
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Uh, how'd you know the spread he was using? (unless he told you of course lol) If he didn't, however, he could have just as easily be running an all-round equal EV spread, especially since he was running SPECIAL METAGROSS.I saw this while ladding today.
For the love of gawd
Don't EVER use this:
Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Rock Polish
- Flash Cannon
- Grass Knot
Why it's bad:
Mega Metagross may seem like a decent Special Attackernotbut its more inclined to using Physical Attacks and Grass Knot as the ONLY Special Coverage move you should use. The reason to go physical is because Mega Metagross has a Special Attack stat of 105 which is decent by all means, but its Attack is at 145 and it has the ability Tough Claws meaning you're Physical moves get boosted as if by a Life Orb far surpasses 105.
Instead use this:
Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm
- Meteor Mash
- Grass Knot
Why its better:
This set takes full advantage of Mega Metagross's full potential. Zen Heabutt, Meteor Mash, Hammer Arm, AND Grass Knot all make contact meaning they get the Tough claws boost as well as, except Grass Knot, benefit from its higher Attack Stat.
Or use these
Why they're better?
All these Pokemon are far better Special Attackers than Metagross and have movesets that support their Special Attack stat which for the most part is higher than Mega Metagross's.
edit: ok sanger zonvolt.
CakeOfTruth I do talk with my opponent, I just don't usually ask for spreads.
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