Other Don't use that, use this [XY OU Edition]

[jg1198]

Xatu can't run Defog and Magic Bounce on the same set because it gets Defog via Gen. 4 HM and Magic Bounce is only available in Gen 5 and up. Honestly, the trade off is never worth it as Magic Bounce is the only reason Xatu is used to begin with.

The only thing a partial Flying typing gives Xatu is the ability to switch into CB Earthquakes. Its typing is more of a liability than anything as it's weak to Stealth Rock as well as the potent Ice type. While a 4x resistance to Fighting type moves can be nice, gaining three weaknesses makes a partial Flying typing more of a curse than a blessing.

Oh shit i completely forgot. Sorry, guess he can't run defog, but since he is a magic bouncer, it shouldn't become a huge problem anyways.

Also, Xatu shouldn't be staying in on most special attackers, but it's flying type actually makes it doubly resistant to fighting types, and what's nice about it's flying type is that a lot of ground types that would beat Espeon, can't beat Xatu, like the ones I outlined in my post. Hippowdon and Gliscor often rely on Earthquake and toxic to do damage, and Xatu is immune to both thanks to it's ability and "liability" of a typing. Oh and guess what else flying helps with? U-turn. Xatu actually stops Lando-T that run HP ice over Stone Edge (a stupid trend, but it seems to be becoming more popular) as it can only 3HKO with HP ice, and does 50.1% max with fully invested positive nature U-turn. Meanwhile Espeon is OHKO'd by both EQ and U-turn coming off the same set. Meanwhile Jolly max attack Excadrill and 4 Atk neutral nature Donphan still fail to OHKO the set I showed with their respective rock coverage, while Excadrill has a high chance to OHKO Espeon, and Donphan has a high chance of taking out Espeon with an EQ followed up by ice shard. And anyways, stone edge is so uncommon on donphan, and ice shard has a 0.3% chance to 3HKO Xatu. So against a lot of physical threats, and especially a lot of stealth rock users, which is what Xatu should be dealing with, the flying type is actually a huge boon.

 

[SoulRed12]

Espeon runs max HP/Spe timid with CM / (Psychic/psyshock) / Morning Sun / (HP Fire/Baton Pass). Xatu runs max HP/(Def/SDef) bold/calm with (Psychic/Night Shade) / (Heat Wave/Roost) / Status / U-turn. Espeon is meant to be able to block hazards and hit things after a CM with its superior special attack stat, Xatu is meant to tank hits and u-turn when it predicts the opponent to switch. Espeon dies to more (physical) things but it can hit before more things and harder, the opposite is true for Xatu. They're just different. I tend to prefer Espeon though since I like to leave tanking to other stuff that can do it better. (Cresselia comes to mind, which incidentally takes max attack Lando-T's U-turn just as well as max def Xatu, despite being weak to it.) Also, after a CM, it can take a special move like thunderbolt that Xatu cannot. Magic bouncers aren't just for blocking hazards, also for things like toxic and will-o-wisp which special attackers can also use.

 

[jg1198]

Espeon runs max HP/Spe timid with CM / (Psychic/psyshock) / Morning Sun / (HP Fire/Baton Pass). Xatu runs max HP/(Def/SDef) bold/calm with (Psychic/Night Shade) / (Heat Wave/Roost) / Status / U-turn. Espeon is meant to be able to block hazards and hit things after a CM with its superior special attack stat, Xatu is meant to tank hits and u-turn when it predicts the opponent to switch. Espeon dies to more (physical) things but it can hit before more things and harder, the opposite is true for Xatu. They're just different. I tend to prefer Espeon though since I like to leave tanking to other stuff that can do it better. (Cresselia comes to mind, which incidentally takes max attack Lando-T's U-turn just as well as max def Xatu, despite being weak to it.) Also, after a CM, it can take a special move like thunderbolt that Xatu cannot. Magic bouncers aren't just for blocking hazards, also for things like toxic and will-o-wisp which special attackers can also use.

A pokemon can run multiple sets... did you even read my posts? Because you redundantly mention things that I already covered, and you clearly haven't tried the set. I also clearly state multiple times in this thread that my Xatu is for stopping hazards users, not tanking thunderbolts. Also Cresselia and Xatu perform totally different roles, so that's completely irrelevent. You clearly haven't read the entire discussion, so please comment until you have. And the points you make are irrelevent anyways, since the only hazard user that runs thunderbolt at all is Deoxys-S (which is likely to be banned soon anyway) and the only two special attackers that commonly use attacks that are super effect on Xatu, and run status moves, are Zapdos, and Thundurus, which beat Espeon as well, Gastrodon with Ice beam, and Jellicent with shadow ball, both of which get wrecked by grass knot.

 

[SoulRed12]

Your original point: Use Xatu over Espeon because it can wall common hazard-setters whereas Espeon can't wall them.

My point: Xatu and Espeon are "better" at different "types" of magic bouncing. Xatu is tankier and Espeon hits harder and faster, both to things like Hippowdon and Gliscor and to other stuff in general. The problem is that while Espeon's 130/110 offensive stats are competitive (and it incidentally has access to a stronger grass knot), Xatu's 65/70/70 defensive stats are not. Hence why I brought up Cresselia as an example of a pokemon who is a much better tank than Xatu. If you're worried about toxic then you can use Mega Venusaur or even synchrobell Umbreon, or something like heal bell Sylveon.

So yes, Xatu walls stuff like Hippowdon and Gliscor where Espeon can't, but it doesn't have much use against much else, so if you don't want Espeon or M-Absol you're better off just foregoing a magic bouncer altogether and dealing with those pokemon another way (say, Ro-dub and a spinner/defogger, or even just Starmie) than using Xatu. I'd rather use two slots for a competitively offensive magic bouncer and a good tank than just one but for only a mediocre magic bouncing tank.

 

[NZHC]

On the first page of this thread there is Cloyster as something that is outclassed. This is my signature pokemon atm on every one of my teams as a shell smasher / focus slash but this has peaked my interest if there is something better but I can't find what it is ? The only mon I could think would do this job better is Barbaracle with more even defenses

 

[Ningildo]

Your original point: Use Xatu over Espeon because it can wall common hazard-setters whereas Espeon can't wall them.

My point: Xatu and Espeon are "better" at different "types" of magic bouncing. Xatu is tankier and Espeon hits harder and faster, both to things like Hippowdon and Gliscor and to other stuff in general. The problem is that while Espeon's 130/110 offensive stats are competitive (and it incidentally has access to a stronger grass knot), Xatu's 65/70/70 defensive stats are not. Hence why I brought up Cresselia as an example of a pokemon who is a much better tank than Xatu. If you're worried about toxic then you can use Mega Venusaur or even synchrobell Umbreon, or something like heal bell Sylveon.

So yes, Xatu walls stuff like Hippowdon and Gliscor where Espeon can't, but it doesn't have much use against much else, so if you don't want Espeon or M-Absol you're better off just foregoing a magic bouncer altogether and dealing with those pokemon another way (say, Ro-dub and a spinner/defogger, or even just Starmie) than using Xatu. I'd rather use two slots for a competitively offensive magic bouncer and a good tank than just one but for only a mediocre magic bouncing tank.

Yeah...no.

I'm pretty sure when Magic Bouncers are being discussed the point is "why use Xatu over Espeon?" There are no "different" types of magic bouncing. It does the same thing for each mon that gets it and of those 3 (I think), only MAbsol really uses it to help it screw over things like Sableye while going through a team.

The other two, however, are ONLY used because of their access to it and the role that comes with it: blocking hazards (among) so spinning is unnecessary. Obviously, sticking around longer is far better suited to reaching this goal, especially so if you have SR weak mons. In this case, something that can switch in far easier into mons that set up hazards is pretty much the best user of Magic Bounce as it optimally fulfills the role. Espeon can hit harder, take certain special attacks better and is faster, but is not the strongest choice regardless, as these traits don't help it switch into the mons that set up hazards, as pointed out, with the sole exception of Suicide Lead Deo-S, who doesn't run Thunderbolt to begin with. It also gets worn down by switching into attacks more easily despite not being weak to SR (which, considering what MB users are supposed to do, is a non factor) due it's lack of reliable recovery, while Xatu has Roost and even has access to Heat Wave to roast Scizor and Genesect, who often think most Psychic types are set up bait.

In any way you look at it, Xatu does the role better.

 

[Rotosect]

On the first page of this thread there is Cloyster as something that is outclassed. This is my signature pokemon atm on every one of my teams as a shell smasher / focus slash but this has peaked my interest if there is something better but I can't find what it is ? The only mon I could think would do this job better is Barbaracle with more even defenses

You got it backwards; it's Cloyster who outclasses Barbaracle, not the other way around.
Cloyster is the only physical sweeper in OU who doesn't rely on contact moves (so it's not screwed over by Gooey/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin/Flame Body/Rocky Helmet/King's Shield), it reaches a critical speed tier after a Shell Smash and its multi-hit moves are helpful against Substitute, Sturdy and Sashes.
It's definitely an uique pokemon and nothing outclasses it at its role.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Espeon has a good 110 Speed tiers (specially after tomorrow) has a great 130 Special Attack, thing that only a few pokemon can't presume in OU. The metagame is too physical that some teams are don't even care of having a Special Sweeper (my case with 4 Special-oriented pokemon, 3 EV'd is pretty rare) that goes offensive in non-stall teams. To the point that Heatran and Togekiss, Pokemon with has mainly Special attack are more used as a defensive pokemon than as offensive pokemon.

 

[Thorhammer]

You got it backwards; it's Cloyster who outclasses Barbaracle, not the other way around.
Cloyster is the only physical sweeper in OU who doesn't rely on contact moves (so it's not screwed over by Gooey/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin/Flame Body/Rocky Helmet/King's Shield), it reaches a critical speed tier after a Shell Smash and its multi-hit moves are helpful against Substitute, Sturdy and Sashes.
It's definitely an uique pokemon and nothing outclasses it at its role.

The specific line is:

bad, mediocre, or straight-up outclassed Pokemon such as Donphan, Cloyster, and Forretress are comfortably OU

Granted it sounds like it's saying Cloyster is mediocre rather than outclassed? Still, even if that's true, Cloyster isn't really an example of the sort of stuff this thread is targeted at getting people to not use; outclassed Pokemon like Donphan are.

 

[jg1198]

Your original point: Use Xatu over Espeon because it can wall common hazard-setters whereas Espeon can't wall them.

My point: Xatu and Espeon are "better" at different "types" of magic bouncing. Xatu is tankier and Espeon hits harder and faster, both to things like Hippowdon and Gliscor and to other stuff in general. The problem is that while Espeon's 130/110 offensive stats are competitive (and it incidentally has access to a stronger grass knot), Xatu's 65/70/70 defensive stats are not. Hence why I brought up Cresselia as an example of a pokemon who is a much better tank than Xatu. If you're worried about toxic then you can use Mega Venusaur or even synchrobell Umbreon, or something like heal bell Sylveon.

So yes, Xatu walls stuff like Hippowdon and Gliscor where Espeon can't, but it doesn't have much use against much else, so if you don't want Espeon or M-Absol you're better off just foregoing a magic bouncer altogether and dealing with those pokemon another way (say, Ro-dub and a spinner/defogger, or even just Starmie) than using Xatu. I'd rather use two slots for a competitively offensive magic bouncer and a good tank than just one but for only a mediocre magic bouncing tank.

Ok for the last time, my original point is that Xatu ACTUALLY STOPS HAZARD USERS AND CAN TAKE THEM OUT BEFORE BEING KILLED, NOT THAT IT WALLS THEM, AS NEITHER ESPEON NOR XATU ARE WALLS. The best Xatu can hope for is a bulky pivot. Ok really you need to lurk more because you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Also if you would actually look at other's posts before spouting nonsense, you would have seen my calc's and seen that Xatu does more damage to what it needs to hurt, like hazard setters, so no espeon doesn't hit harder either.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Umh, just wondering, some people can choose terrible sets for different reasons, let's say one wants to run a physical Greninja; some would want that set because they want to use Greninja, in which case is outclassed by special sets, some want a water type priority, in which case is outclassed by Azumarill or Crawdaunt(that incidentally shares the same type with Greninja), and some others might want a priority that outspeed Talonflame, in which case is outclassed by strong Extreme Speed users such as Choice Band Dragonite, faster Pokemon/priority users that resist Flying such as Thundurus or Bisharp or simply by something that can take a Brave Bird and KO back. What kind of Pokémon should one compare with physical Greninja, or other bad Pokémon/sets for that matter?

 

[Ajwf]

Using physical greninja isn't unviable at all... In fact, I've run mixed and physical for a few reasons, and that's the access to immunity moves (Such as shadow sneak, aerial ace and some others). The point of special greninja is to obviously deal an insane amount of damage in a short period of time, but some pokemon are a little more challenging to take, and I still wanted Ice beam for the 4x weak. I ran a Shadow sneak, waterfall (worked better vs SpDef heatran), ice beam, and Dark pulse set to take care of conkeldurr/infernape easier (Shadow sneak a mach punch, force the knock off (generally a switch in infernape's case) and either change out if his HP was too high or go for water fall to finish him.

Slightly less viable? Perhaps. But it is better for practicing prediction, in my opinion. Came in clutch, too, by catching a ton of chansey/blisseys for easy damage.

 

[WebBowser]

Not putting 252 Defense EVs on Blissey is crazy; doing so more than doubles its physical bulk and otherwise it will be destroyed by any physical attack.

Ok then, make the EV spread 252HP/252Def/4SPDef with defense boosting nature of choice, there is still no reason to not invest in HP on Blissey.

Anyway, the rest of my post still stands, Blissey still has a very important niche over Chansey.

 

[Arcticblast]

Ok then, make the EV spread 252HP/252Def/4SPDef with defense boosting nature of choice, there is still no reason to not invest in HP on Blissey.

You mean besides the fact that a Blissey with 24 defense EVs and 116 Special defense EVs takes hits better than a Blissey with 252 HP EVs?
0 Atk Blissey Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Blissey: 158-186 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- 97% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Blissey Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 172-204 (24 - 28.5%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Blissey Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Blissey: 96-114 (14.7 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Blissey Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 106-126 (14.8 - 17.6%) -- possible 6HKO

When a Pokemon's HP is that high compared to its defenses, investing in HP is worthless - stick to EVing in defenses.

 

[alexwolf]

Unless reaching maximum physical or special bulk is needed to avoid certain OHKO/2HKOes, but it's true that in general it's better to invest in both defenses on Blissey.

 

[Zebstrika]

The specific line is:



Granted it sounds like it's saying Cloyster is mediocre rather than outclassed? Still, even if that's true, Cloyster isn't really an example of the sort of stuff this thread is targeted at getting people to not use; outclassed Pokemon like Donphan are.

Possibly the OP specifically means hazards/spinner Cloyster? Apparently 19% of Cloyster run rapid spin, and 8% run a type of spikes. Those Cloysters aren't very good, they can't set up on any special attacker with their horrible HP and SDef stats, and the fact that opponents don't like giving Cloyster a free turn or it can set up Shell Smash. Cloyster with just Rapid Spin and no spikes is outclassed by Starmie for the most part, while Cloyster with Spin and Spikes is outclassed by Forretress who doesn't instantly crumple at the thought of a special attack. Spin+Toxic Spikes is outclassed by Tentacruel who again has much more balanced defenses as well as a better typing.

 

[WebBowser]

You mean besides the fact that a Blissey with 24 defense EVs and 116 Special defense EVs takes hits better than a Blissey with 252 HP EVs?
0 Atk Blissey Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Blissey: 158-186 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- 97% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Blissey Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 172-204 (24 - 28.5%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Blissey Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Blissey: 96-114 (14.7 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Blissey Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 106-126 (14.8 - 17.6%) -- possible 6HKO

When a Pokemon's HP is that high compared to its defenses, investing in HP is worthless - stick to EVing in defenses.

*tips imaginary hat*

And that, folks, is why I post. To have people who know way more then I do to tell me I'm wrong, ya'know?

I'm guessing you left out the extra EVs just to make a point, right? That's really impressive, ya'know?

 

[CyclicCompound]

Don't use this:

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Roar / Earth Power
- Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / Stealth Rock

Why it's bad: Heatran's Specially Defensive set is certainly good, as it's one of the most capable Pokemon in OU. Not only does it act as a great special wall, but it also has great utility outside of its walling capabilities. Likewise, Air Balloon is a great item to use on Heatran, as it takes away Heatran's greatest flaw, its double weakness to Ground-type moves. However, using the set and the item in conjunction is not a smart idea. It leaves Heatran without any recovery and allows it to easily become worn down over time, greatly compromising its role as a special tank, and doesn't mesh well with the fact that Heatran's main role will be to soak up the moves it resists rather than temporarily avoid certain threats.

Instead, use this:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Roar / Earth Power
- Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / Stealth Rock


Why it's better: With Leftovers, Heatran becomes far more durable and resilient, and definitely won't go down without a fight. Because it will be frequently sent out against attackers that cannot hurt it, such as defensive Mega Venusaur and Talonflame, it will have ample time to gain Leftovers recovery and stay healthy. As a defensive Pokemon that must time and time again switch in protect other members of the team, the recovery from Leftovers is indispensable. Although it may no longer be able to force Excadrill out or safely get up Stealth Rock against a Garchomp, the long-term effect of having Leftovers is what makes Specially Defensive Heatran a viable Pokemon in the first place.

Conclusion:

While Heatran is a great user of both its Specially Defensive set and Air Balloon, Air Balloon is much better suited for offensive sets. On the Specially Defensive set where survivability and durability reign over all other factors, Leftovers is the only acceptable item.

 

[xlxlxlxl]

snip

What is it max speed?

 

[CyclicCompound]

What is it max speed?

Nice catch! That's supposed to be Special Defense, thank you.

 

[xlxlxlxl]

Nice catch! That's supposed to be Special Defense, thank you.

No problem. I've been running into a bunch of non scarf Heatrans that outspeed my 252 speed Bisharp so I was curious.

 

[Old Jack]

Heatran@Leflovers with the classic protect/toxic combo is one of the best way to restore your health and increase the toxic damage taken by the opponent check. Really annoying to face

 

[RP2865]

Let's get some new discussion on this forum. Tell me if I'm wrong, because I'm new here.

Don't use this:

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash/Choice Band
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Reversal/Aerial Ace
-Sucker Punch

Why it's outclassed:
Dugtrio used to be one of the best revenge killers in the game due to it's ability, Arena Trap and it's blazing speed. This allowed Dugtrio to trap and kill opponents at its leisure. Sucker Punch was the icing on the cake, allowing it to defeat faster, frail pokemon (i.e. Alakazam, who has the same base speed and is weak to Sucker Punch). Focus Sash Reversal let it keep going once it would have seemed to be dead, and the now-200BP move had great coverage. Unfortunately, it now has severe problems. 35/50/70 defenses are below abysmal, leaving it prone to fainting from even neutral hits all the time. Here is a demonstration of how weak it its:

252 Atk Adaptability Feebas Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 220-260 (103.7 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Here is it being OHKOd by a Pokemon with 15 base attack, with no power boosting item, and a Jolly nature.
The power creep currently going on does not help it here.
Even worse, with the advent of Prankster, a Prankster Will-O-Wisp utterly destroys it. Both Banette-Mega and Sableye can run this. It weakens it's attack power hugely and breaks it's sash. Because it is a physical attacker, foul play shreds it too.

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 213-252 (100.4 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (assumes Dugtrio is Adamant)

It's ability, Arena Trap, also has two huge catches:
1. It can be traced by Pokemon like Porygon-2, who can trap and OHKO it.
2. Most important, all of these Pokemon aren't trapped by Arena Trap or hit by a STAB Earthquake: Flying Pokemon, Levitate Pokemon, Shed Shell Pokemon, VoltTurn users, and Air Ballooners.

To further compound it's issues, it has a weak base 80 attack stat. That is 5 points better thank Blissey's special attack, to give you an idea. It is weak to priority ice shard as well as aqua jet, and other priority attacks (Bullet Punch, ExtremeSpeed, Sucker Punch in particular since they are physical) wreck it as well.

252+ Atk Choice Scarf Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 252-296 (118.8 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 411-484 (193.8 - 228.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 280-331 (132 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Instead, use this:

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers/Focus Sash/White Herb
-Counter
-Mirror Coat
-Encore
-Destiny Bond

Why it's (so) much better:

One reason Wobbuffet is much better than Dugtrio is because of how useful it's stat spread is. High HP and low defenses make CounterCoat damage spectacular, and Destiny Bond carrying over a turn if you are slower makes the low speed less of an issue. It is remarkably hard to OHKO. If it max invests in the defense stat that you hit the hardest, just forget about it:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wobbuffet: 486-572 (83.2 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you use U-turn (which does 64.7 - 76.3% max), what ever non-ghost comes in will get shredded. If adamant choice band Scizor uses U-turn on a max defense and HP Wobbuffet, switches into Blissey, and the Wobbuffet uses counter, the Blissey will be OHKOd 100% of the time.

Remember how I talked about the problems that Pokemon switching out of Dugtrio's Arena Trap give Dugtrio? Wobuffet doesn't care about these. It can CounterCoat Voltturning, and Pokemon that switch out bring in a new victim.

Encore gives you a free switch in on hazard setters, spinners, defoggers, set up sweepers, and more. Here's a special, nearly fool-proof trick to get rid of set up sweepers who switch into you if you have full health.
-Use Destiny Bond. They will have to use a non-damaging move if they feel like surviving.
-Encore that non-damaging move.
-Enjoy your free switch-in.

(As a final point, Dugtrio is more used than Wobbuffet, by a margin of 22 spots on the ladder and is used .26% more)

 

[6feetunder]

Let's get some new discussion on this forum. Tell me if I'm wrong, because I'm new here.

You're wrong.

Dugtrio and Wobbuffet do entirely different things. They have no similarities outside of trapping, so comparing them like this is pointless. It's like comparing Gyarados to Landorus-T just because they both have intimidate.

 

[Galaco]

Still failling to see how Deo-S outclasses Espeon given they have completely different roles.