On Greninja it's better to slash Hydro on Spikes because you want Tspikes more and Taunt and Sneak are mandatory because that's its niche over Scolipede or Deo.Since OU swung the axe on Greninja many lower ladder players will (and were last month) use the offensive set which isn't good in Ubers as it was in OU. Let's stop this trend before it builds up!
Don't use this:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Extrasensory
- Dark Pulse
Why it's bad:
This set has seen 20% usage on all Greninja. Now you might ask, "why is offensive Greninja bad in Ubers?" The reason: Deoxys-A exists. Deoxys-A has significantly more offensive presence than Greninja with both offenses being base 180 and is way faster at a base 150 Speed, and it still has the movepool to abuse this power. Deoxys-A can even clean up late game due to Extreme Speed and remove items with Knock Off. Plus both are so frail that the defense boost doesn't even matter.
Use this:
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe (or 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe)
Jolly / Timid / Naive Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes
- Taunt / Hydro Pump
- Shadow Sneak / Hydro Pump
Why it's better:
This is what Greninja does best in Ubers: taking advantage of its high speed as a lead setting up (t) spikes and blocking any attempts of hazard removal with Taunt to block Defog and Protean Shadow Sneak to block Rapid Spin. Shadow Sneak is also useful as it allows Greninja to anti-lead Deoxys-A and Deoxys-S, limiting Deoxys-A to only one hazard and Deoxys-S to two, while Taunt prevents slower hazard users from setting up hazards.
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Gen 6 Don't Use That, Use This!
- Thread starter tutterydiglett
- Start date
- Status
OK, to preserve the sanity of every Ubers player ever, I am going to say this
Don't use this:
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- ExtremeSpeed
Why it's bad:
While I know the satisfaction of OHKO-ing Primal Groudon with Surf, this move should not be run seriously due to it only hitting one relevant target, which is Primal Groudon, which is hit very hard by Draco Meteor anyway. Furthermore, Primal Groudon will normally switch out from Rayquaza anyway due to it risk being crippled otherwise. When this happens, Rayquaza won't hit it's checks hard enough due to Surf's low Base Power and poor Super Effective coverage.
Use this instead:
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- ExtremeSpeed
Why it's better:
Earthquake allows you to hit would-be checks such as Arceus-Rock, Mega Mawile, Tyranitar, Aegislash and Dialga Super Effectively while also threatening Primal Groudon with a 2HKO, discouraging all of them from switching in and forcing Rayquaza out easily, which would have been the case if EQ is not used.
Tl, dr; Surf is a pretty bad option on Rayquaza. Use Earthquake instead.
EDIT: Edited to reflect Surf vs Earthquake instead of Draco Meteor
Don't use this:
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- ExtremeSpeed
Why it's bad:
While I know the satisfaction of OHKO-ing Primal Groudon with Surf, this move should not be run seriously due to it only hitting one relevant target, which is Primal Groudon, which is hit very hard by Draco Meteor anyway. Furthermore, Primal Groudon will normally switch out from Rayquaza anyway due to it risk being crippled otherwise. When this happens, Rayquaza won't hit it's checks hard enough due to Surf's low Base Power and poor Super Effective coverage.
Use this instead:
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- ExtremeSpeed
Why it's better:
Earthquake allows you to hit would-be checks such as Arceus-Rock, Mega Mawile, Tyranitar, Aegislash and Dialga Super Effectively while also threatening Primal Groudon with a 2HKO, discouraging all of them from switching in and forcing Rayquaza out easily, which would have been the case if EQ is not used.
Tl, dr; Surf is a pretty bad option on Rayquaza. Use Earthquake instead.
EDIT: Edited to reflect Surf vs Earthquake instead of Draco Meteor
Last edited:
And why would you run it over EQ? Draco Meteor, Dragon Ascent and EQ all hit Primal Groudon very hard and so much more threats that putting Surf over them is not worth it. Also, Rayquaza likes having Extremespeed to KO weakened threats and separate it from Mega Mence so you can't run it over that move either.
Furthermore, Primal Groudon normally switches out of Rayquaza since Draco Meteor / EQ cripples it and is often not worth the sac. However, you can still hit Rayquaza switch-ins hard with DM / EQ while dealing negligible damage with Surf.
I didn't say that I would use it over EQ, but that it's, if any, an option over EQ, not over Draco Meteor as STABs + priority move are p much mandatory on Rayquaza and if you wanna use Surf then you aren't using EQ but you are using Draco Meteor (your previous post said that you shouldn't use Surf instead of Draco Meteor but that's a bit obviously imo, as you will always use your dragon STAB)
But if that Deoxys-A is one of the 80 percent that have ExtremeSpeed, Greninja loses.
sash greninja takes the espeed then proceeds to shadow sneak, therefore becoming a ghost type and immune to espeed, you can then either go for spikes if you don't care about them setting up SR or killing you first or just shadow sneak to KO them.
Will you please explain the reasoning behind the EV's and Nature? I'm curious as I run a Careful spread with more EV's in Atk and would love to see if this makes more sense to use as Scizor is on my team for the very reasons you posted.
The spread given reaches stats of 374 Attack and 297 Special Defense. To reach the same Attack with a Careful nature you need 152 Attack EVs, which leaves you 108 Special Defense EVs. However, this only reaches a stat of 289 Special Defense. This means the given spread more efficient EV-wise. In general you will get the most "mileage" out of a nature when it goes into the highest stat (since ex: 200 * 1.1 = 220 which is a 20 point increase, but 300 * 1.1 = 330 is a 30 point increase). If you need more that 297 Special Defense, that is when you run Careful.
Yeah He is my Xern counter so I think it's probably more important to have higher SpD unless he gets a OHKO with BP using your spread? I evened my spread a little to where I think I am running 100ish Atk (I can't recall exactly) it turned out to get the usual Geomancy with a 100% 2HKO.
16+ Attack does not OHKO, and you are probably facing the max SpA / max Speed Xerneas, since the current Xerneas spread (104 HP / 32 Def, which is not recommended because it's outdated) you need 164 EVs or 28 EVs with Adamant.
reaches 377 Attack stat
164 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 104 HP / 32 Def Xerneas: 210-248 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
28+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 104 HP / 32 Def Xerneas: 210-248 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
100 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 104 HP / 32 Def Xerneas: 200-236 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO
16+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 104 HP / 32 Def Xerneas: 206-246 (49.1 - 58.7%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
100 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 206-246 (52.4 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 216-254 (54.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Unless you are 64 EVs off in remembering, it's very likely you are facing a bad Xerneas spread.
The evs were made during spl5 (me and dice unknowingly used the same evs before we met at scooters last year), the purpose were twofold: avoid 2hko from Mega Gengar Sball after SR and 2HKO the then standard 152 HP Geoxern.
They are very specific XY evs though, there are probably more efficient spreads rn if you really wanna use this mon.
They are very specific XY evs though, there are probably more efficient spreads rn if you really wanna use this mon.
It's probably the bad Xern spreads since I usually hover around 1300 with the team, so what your saying is that it makes mroe sense to go with the lower Atk but with Adamant instead of 252 careful for a Xern counter?
Correct. Unless you need a ton of SpDef for whatever reason, an Adamant nature is the most efficient use of EVs. More SpDef doesn't help that much because Scizor already lives +2 Focus Blast, and if Xern has HP Fire you are screwed no matter how much SpDef you run.
Don't use:
Blaziken @ Blazikenite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect / Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Low Kick / Knock Off
- Stone Edge / Knock Off
Instead use:
GROUND (Salamence) @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 120 HP / 184 Atk / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Roost
Mega Blaziken is unbearably common on the lower ladder. Why would you actually use this thing over Salamence? There's practically no offensive/defensive niche it fulfills besides killing a few things that bug mence. Understand that regular Blaziken could probably work in Ubers in conjunction with Megamence since they handle each other's checks/counters decently and Blaze could possibly even BP to Mence. But it's just the opportunity cost of using a mega that's walled by Primal Groudon/Latis/Mega Salamence/Ho-Oh (depending on the coverage it runs, and it still always has trouble handling things like Lugia/Giratina-O) that makes it undesirable. Mega Blaziken is practically a waste of your mega slot. Stay away from it.
I've seen tons of WP Aegislash but that was already covered in this thread.
I saw a few regular Kyogres but I think the reasoning behind that being unviable is so obvious that I don't even need to go into detail about it.
Mega Blaze and Mega Mence are completely different Pokemon o_0. Sure, Mega Mence is a better Pokemon in almost every way, but this is almost comparing apples to oranges. Mega Blaze is definitely a worse tasting apple than the orange that is Mega Mence, though, and yeah, you're right in saying that you're better off using regular Blaze + Mega Mence.
In terms of a niche though, Blaze CAN revenge kill stuff like Darkrai, Skymin and MMY which Mega Mence can't, so yeah, that's a thing.
Don't use this:
Why it's bad:
Palkia may have been great back in XY, but things have changed in ORAS. First off, the rise of Primal Groudon means that Palkia can no longer spam Hydro Pump due to Desolate Land. It cannot spam Dragon STAB either due to fairies like Xerneas and Klefki being omnipresent. It cannot even check Primal Kyogre due to its only average special bulk by Ubers standards. It can check regular Kyogre but regular Kyogre is trash.
Use one of these:
Why they're better:
The Lati twins outclass Palkia due to Soul Dew which allows them to effectively check Primal Kyogre, and their typing and Levitate allow them to handle Primal Groudon as well. They also have reliable recovery, unlike Palkia, and have Defog for some utility. Latias has Healing Wish to give sweepers a second chance, while Latios has Memento to ease setup for a sweeper.
Why it's bad:
Palkia may have been great back in XY, but things have changed in ORAS. First off, the rise of Primal Groudon means that Palkia can no longer spam Hydro Pump due to Desolate Land. It cannot spam Dragon STAB either due to fairies like Xerneas and Klefki being omnipresent. It cannot even check Primal Kyogre due to its only average special bulk by Ubers standards. It can check regular Kyogre but regular Kyogre is trash.
Use one of these:
Why they're better:
The Lati twins outclass Palkia due to Soul Dew which allows them to effectively check Primal Kyogre, and their typing and Levitate allow them to handle Primal Groudon as well. They also have reliable recovery, unlike Palkia, and have Defog for some utility. Latias has Healing Wish to give sweepers a second chance, while Latios has Memento to ease setup for a sweeper.
Don't use this:
Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 184 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Fire
Why it's bad:
I still see a lot of players, even in mid-ladder, running HP Fire on Xern. Just don't. it doesn't hit anything relevant, because scizor is very uncommon due to the opportunity cost of using it. it also leaves you unable to hit PDon for significant damage. the only thing it hits is Shedinja, and since i'm probably the only one using that, it's not worth the price.
Also, Thunderbolt is bad because, while accurate, he doesn't hit his main targets strong enough (AKA Ho-Oh and PKyogre)
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 288-340 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 288-340 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Use this instead:
Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 184 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ground
Why it's better:
Focus Blast, while it misses a lot, hits everything HP Fire does and it have valuable coverage for PDon. it still wrecks Ferrothorn and hits klefki for the same Damage. if you hate missing you can use HP Ground, but it misses out on Ferrothorn.
Thunder, despite being, again, inaccurate, does more to the aforementioned threats, OHKOing them at +2 with a bit of residual damage:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 352-416 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 350-414 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 184 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Fire
Why it's bad:
I still see a lot of players, even in mid-ladder, running HP Fire on Xern. Just don't. it doesn't hit anything relevant, because scizor is very uncommon due to the opportunity cost of using it. it also leaves you unable to hit PDon for significant damage. the only thing it hits is Shedinja, and since i'm probably the only one using that, it's not worth the price.
Also, Thunderbolt is bad because, while accurate, he doesn't hit his main targets strong enough (AKA Ho-Oh and PKyogre)
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 288-340 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 288-340 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Use this instead:
Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 184 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ground
Why it's better:
Focus Blast, while it misses a lot, hits everything HP Fire does and it have valuable coverage for PDon. it still wrecks Ferrothorn and hits klefki for the same Damage. if you hate missing you can use HP Ground, but it misses out on Ferrothorn.
Thunder, despite being, again, inaccurate, does more to the aforementioned threats, OHKOing them at +2 with a bit of residual damage:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 352-416 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 350-414 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm very glad I found this thread.
Don't use this:
:xy/lucario-mega:
Lucario-Mega @Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Swords dance
-Close Combat
-Extremespeed/Ice Punch/Stone Edge
-Bullet Punch
Why it's bad:
Mega Lucario is not a bad Pokemon, by any stretch. However, it is too frail to try and set up with. Yes the boost does allow Lucario to sweep, but no-one in their right mind would ever allow it to set up in the first place. Mega Lucario's weakness lies in its very poor defenses, which means that if it wastes time trying to boost, it's as good as dead before it can get an attack off.
Instead, use this:
:xy/lucario-mega:
Lucario-Mega @Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Ice punch/Stone Edge
-Close Combat
-Extremespeed
-Bullet Punch
Why it's better:
Simply put, Mega Lucario works better as an all-out attacker. It still suffers from bad defenses, but it doesn't need to waste turns attempting to set up, when it can spend them attacking instead. This will also allow you to switch out more freely.
However, if you would rather use another (physical) set up sweeper, then instead use one of these:
:xy/zekrom:
Zekrom @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252Atk/252Spe/4HP
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Hone Claws
-Bolt Strike
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt
:xy/salamence-mega:
Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerialate
EVs: 252Atk/252Spe/4SpD
Adamant Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Substitute
-Return
-Roost/Earthquake
:xy/groudon-primal:
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Evs: 252HP/252Atk/4Def
Adamant Nature
-Bulk Up
-Precipice Blades/Earthquake
-Fire Punch
-Stone Edge/Dragon Claw
All of these Pokemon can do a much better job of being physical set-up sweepers. They all have much better bulk, good type coverage, good boosting moves, and great offensive presence. With only a few boosts, any of these Poke's could steamroll a team on their own.
.....One last thing, I'm not gonna dedicate a whole post to it, but don't use non-mega Lucario in ubers either. I know that sounds obvious, but I've seen it enough times to warrant saying it. Don't use non-mega Lucario in ubers.
Don't use this:
:xy/lucario-mega:
Lucario-Mega @Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Swords dance
-Close Combat
-Extremespeed/Ice Punch/Stone Edge
-Bullet Punch
Why it's bad:
Mega Lucario is not a bad Pokemon, by any stretch. However, it is too frail to try and set up with. Yes the boost does allow Lucario to sweep, but no-one in their right mind would ever allow it to set up in the first place. Mega Lucario's weakness lies in its very poor defenses, which means that if it wastes time trying to boost, it's as good as dead before it can get an attack off.
Instead, use this:
:xy/lucario-mega:
Lucario-Mega @Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Ice punch/Stone Edge
-Close Combat
-Extremespeed
-Bullet Punch
Why it's better:
Simply put, Mega Lucario works better as an all-out attacker. It still suffers from bad defenses, but it doesn't need to waste turns attempting to set up, when it can spend them attacking instead. This will also allow you to switch out more freely.
However, if you would rather use another (physical) set up sweeper, then instead use one of these:
:xy/zekrom:
Zekrom @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252Atk/252Spe/4HP
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Hone Claws
-Bolt Strike
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt
:xy/salamence-mega:
Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerialate
EVs: 252Atk/252Spe/4SpD
Adamant Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Substitute
-Return
-Roost/Earthquake
:xy/groudon-primal:
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Evs: 252HP/252Atk/4Def
Adamant Nature
-Bulk Up
-Precipice Blades/Earthquake
-Fire Punch
-Stone Edge/Dragon Claw
All of these Pokemon can do a much better job of being physical set-up sweepers. They all have much better bulk, good type coverage, good boosting moves, and great offensive presence. With only a few boosts, any of these Poke's could steamroll a team on their own.
.....One last thing, I'm not gonna dedicate a whole post to it, but don't use non-mega Lucario in ubers either. I know that sounds obvious, but I've seen it enough times to warrant saying it. Don't use non-mega Lucario in ubers.
I don't want to discourage people from posting or anything but I have some suggestions for the sets that were just posted.
Dragon Claw is mandatory on Hone Claws Zekrom as is a Shuca Berry. Dragon Claw is needed to be able to hit Grounds and Dragons without fear of the locking effect of Outrage and a Shuca Berry allows this set to fulfill a defensive niche by checking mons such as Mence while also easing setup. Substitute or running dual Dragon STAB with Outrage is much better than running Stone Edge or Zen Headbutt as both these moves hit virtually nothing.
Bulk Up P Don isn't worthwhile as having an extra Attack boost via Swords Dance is much more favorable than having a defense boost, which is entirely situational in the few instances where it might pay off. If you want to use Primal Groudon as a setup sweeper you're better off using Rock Polish, double dance, or even a fast Swords Dance.
Dragon Claw is mandatory on Hone Claws Zekrom as is a Shuca Berry. Dragon Claw is needed to be able to hit Grounds and Dragons without fear of the locking effect of Outrage and a Shuca Berry allows this set to fulfill a defensive niche by checking mons such as Mence while also easing setup. Substitute or running dual Dragon STAB with Outrage is much better than running Stone Edge or Zen Headbutt as both these moves hit virtually nothing.
Bulk Up P Don isn't worthwhile as having an extra Attack boost via Swords Dance is much more favorable than having a defense boost, which is entirely situational in the few instances where it might pay off. If you want to use Primal Groudon as a setup sweeper you're better off using Rock Polish, double dance, or even a fast Swords Dance.
No discouragement friend, this is a thread about viable pokemon sets after all!
And while Swords dance might be better, I disagree that Bulk Up doesn't have uses. But that's just me.Extreme speed + bullet punch makes no sense, iron tail over it. Sd is not bad?
Sd is bad, when used on a Pokemon that can't afford to waste turns setting up. Which is kinda what the entire post was about. The iron tail thing was just me having a brain slipping moment tbh XD
Is it really a niche if it can't even do it that well?
- Status