Doubles Suspect Stage 1 - Metagame Discussion

[BlankZero]

I find Gastrodon is a fantastic partner for Talonflame. It redirects Water types and discourages Surf Spam, resists Rockslide, is immune to Electric (let's it switch in or against Discharge), while Talonflame resists (4x resist) any Grass type attacks, and Gastro is bulky as fuck (as many of you now know).

Trevenant is another good partner. While it doesn't resist things as hard as Gastro (notably Rock Slide), it CAN WoW anything trying to Rock Slide Spam and cut that damage in half, while adding chip damage.

Finally, Scrafty/Hitmontop can pair off well with Wide Guard, Intimidate, Fake Out, and Scrafty with Assault Vest can weather all sorts of strong neutral attacks like a boss.

 

[Darkmalice]

I find Gastrodon is a fantastic partner for Talonflame. It redirects Water types and discourages Surf Spam, resists Rockslide, is immune to Electric (let's it switch in or against Discharge), while Talonflame resists (4x resist) any Grass type attacks, and Gastro is bulky as fuck (as many of you now know).

Trevenant is another good partner. While it doesn't resist things as hard as Gastro (notably Rock Slide), it CAN WoW anything trying to Rock Slide Spam and cut that damage in half, while adding chip damage.

Finally, Scrafty/Hitmontop can pair off well with Wide Guard, Intimidate, Fake Out, and Scrafty with Assault Vest can weather all sorts of strong neutral attacks like a boss.

Hitmontop can also use Helping Hand to allow Talonflame to get a OHKO instead a 2HKO. It works well with CB Talonflame.

On the topic of Gastrodon, Swampert also works, as it takes Rock-type and Electric-type attacks, but instead of handling Water-type attacks, it provides Wide Guard protection from Surf and Rock Slide. Swampert, in turn, can use EQ without hurting Talonflame. Torterra works too, but can nail Water-types with Wood Hammer. It has to watch out for Rotom-W's Will-O-Wisp though. Pretty much any Ground-type pairs well with Talonflame, though sadly most Ground-types share a Water-type weakness with Talonflame and are beaten by Rotom-W. If you want standard Ground-types to pair with Talonflame that isn't weak to Water-types, Garchomp is a good pick. It can also Sub as Rotom-W tries to burn it.

 

[Ultimathunder]

I think Hitmontop + grass type is the best way to support Talonflame. Hitmontop’s offensive and support capabilities help Talonflame do its job very well. Wide guard blocks rock slide, feint removes protect, fake out lets Talonflame get a free hit on an enemy, and Fighting moves destroy pokemon which wall Talonflame, such as Tyranitar, Heatran, and Rhyperior. Obviously Hitmontop cannot run all the moves it wants on one set, but depending on the rest of the team it can choose the most important ones. The thing stopping Hitmontop and Talonflame would be Rotom-W which stops Talonflame and Burn hitmontop. This is why a grass type is useful, which have good general synergy with Talonflame anyway, and beats rotom-W. The ones I like to run are Ludicolo or Skymin, the former is more defensive, while the latter is more offensive (and haxy).

I like Pocket’s core with mold breaker Excadrill. One problem with Mold Breaker Excadrill is it’s only decent speed. Priority tailwind from Talonflame is highly useful for making Excadrill very fast.

One of my favorite cores (which Laga used in his last SPL match) is Mega Pinsir and Scarf Lando-T. It w=only works as a led, but is very effective. Pinsir avoids intimidate through hyper cutter, and Lando-T and Mega Pinsir have fantastic coverage together. Lando- removes flying, ice, electric, and steel types easily. However, like a lot of cores, it has problems with Rotom-W. One way to fix this is to run EXPLOSION on Lando-T, or sun a grass type. However, this core is meant for offensive purposes, as it has a mass weakness to ice. It is most effective as a lead, but in general fun to use.

 

[Braverius]

Maybe this is way off track for the discussion and a little too much for this thread, but figured I'd drop my 2x2x2x2 cents on the meta since I've been playing quite a bit recently (and because Pocket is going to make me do this for suspect testing >:( ). Feel free to point me to some things about each mon if you feel my read is off as I'm theorying through about half of these.

Also apologies for being super BPD but I can't be consistent for THAT MUCH WRITING and not eventually get bored of doing the same thing.


1) Heatran ----- While I like Heatran and all, how is it most used on the ladder? It's got some really key damning weaknesses, it can't do much outside of Eruption for major damage output, and in a tier with things like Landorus-T and Kangaskhan and Rotom-W and Garchomp floating around (which I'd argue are a result of being good rather than being used to beat Heatran), it makes little sense to see Heatran up this high.
2) Charizard ----- Kinda makes sense considering its snowballing potential, but maybe a tad bit high considering I don't see too many of its best pals also in the top 15. Also what the hell, two fire types as the top two?
3) Kangaskhan ----- Also is a huge noob-magnet and have seen people beat me because they run really stupid shit on their Kangaskhan (Earthquake, Facade, or Outrage, anyone?) but actually has some really solid stats that make it understandably used a lot. I'd say it's a bit high, but not hard to see why.
4) Landorus-T ----- Was fucking stupid broken OP in VGC, nearly as fucking stupid broken OP in doubles.
5) Rotom-W ----- This is right on cue. Well done, doubles.
6) Togekiss ----- Also right on cue. +2
7) Garchomp ----- Landorus-T is around, outclasses Garchomp in almost every category, and has Intimidate. Garchomp is a solid mon, but being so outclassed, I'm not sure why it's here. I'm guessing the argument is "it resists Fire" which actually looks like a legitimate argument with the fucking oversized stack of fire-type Pokemon in the top 15.
8) Talonflame ----- This is top 30 in 1850+ much less top 10? I know you're all super sadistic but this is ridiculous. I know it has the heaviest-hitting priority move in the game, but it's also the most frail Pokemon in the game considering its shitty defenses and ability to kill itself. Talonflame sucks.
9) Cresselia ----- Good shit.
10) Tyranitar ----- Also good shit.
11) Conkeldurr ----- More good shit- I was going to question this, but I forgot it keeps Ice Punch in Smogdubs. Gotta love some Conk, especially since it can check pretty much everything.
12) Scizor ----- There's FOUR FIRE TYPE MONS in the top 15. Y'all either have some serious balls, or those fire types are pieces of shit. I think there's a bit of an argument for both.
13) Hitmontop ----- Yeah makes sense. Right about where the now-right-side-up guy belongs.
14) Chandelure ----- This is sort of intriguing- I've always thought Chandelure didn't get enough chances and could be a top 15 mon, and here it is. Maybe I've been gone for too long.
15) Greninja ----- I think the same argument that goes for Talonflame also goes for Greninja. If you want to gimp a win here and there, be my guest, but there's not enough bulk or appealing things about Greninja to be stable enough to be relied upon.


Things that blow my mind:
28) Terrakion ----- Terrakion can OHKO OVER HALF OF THE TOP FIFTEEN and it's 28th? Let this sink in for a minute...
30) Gastrodon ----- It fell so far, I'm proud of you all ;u;. Except BlankZero.
31) Klefki ----- But there's still sleep clause...
34) Dusclops ----- Okay nevermind I'm not quite 100% hopeful yet
43) Metagross ----- Have to include because of those feels- it feels fitting to be this low, which blows my mind considering how good it was last year. Metagross was absolutely shit on by the 6th gen changes and additions.
75) Salamence ----- WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK IS THIS DOING DOWN HERE
76) Jellicent ----- Maybe the meta has changed a bit, but I don't think it validates Jellicent being lower than Slowbro or being this low in general.
90) Ludicolo ----- Kingdra is 53rd and loses to Amoonguss
91) Hydreigon ----- While Garchomp sits at 7th....
99) Rotom-H ----- I think I've overused caps, so I won't use it here, but this totally deserves caps. Talonflame is 8th, and a far superior fire type is this deep in the sewer of 1% usage?
101) Suicune ----- Because I have a never-ending erection for Suicune and its lovely, pleasureful bulk.
140) Gourgeist ----- Leagues better than Dusclops and over 100 spots lower than it.



damn, that was fun to write

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I disagree on that judgement with Scizor and Talonflame.

Though doubles is jam packed with Fire-types I really still do find Scizor to be useful due to its classic useful traits - its priority, U-turn, and whatever else you can throw on there like Superpower, Bug Bite, Iron Head, or something, giving it quite a bit of utility. It you ignore the 4 Pokemon in the Top 15 that are Fire-types you will see that Cresselia, Tyranitar, and Togekiss (also Terrakion and the super annoying aromatisse) are weak to Scizor's STAB attacks, and unlike Genesect you can invest in bulk in order to take multiple attacks. I still find Scizor to be fairly useful and I really like its typing and bulk.

The thing I like about Talonflame is that it can pick off foes like Hitmontop or Conkeldurr, snipe a foe with a strong Brave Bird inside or outside of Trick Room, set up a Tailwind before it dies. This also means it can almost OHKO stuff like Charizard before it gets attacked and it makes a good way to finish off dangerous threats like PuP Kangaskhan since it outspeeds other priority moves due to its high speed. It may not have that many roles to provide for a team, but Talonflame has really done work for me most of the time that I use it.

 

[Stratos]

i won't run through everything like zach did (though i would if i had more time probably) but i just wanted to respond to a couple in particular:

14) Chandelure ----- This is sort of intriguing- I've always thought Chandelure didn't get enough chances and could be a top 15 mon, and here it is. Maybe I've been gone for too long.
15) Greninja ----- I think the same argument that goes for Talonflame also goes for Greninja. If you want to gimp a win here and there, be my guest, but there's not enough bulk or appealing things about Greninja to be stable enough to be relied upon.

i wanted to comment on this, because i think your read is off... most chandelure ive seen are shitty focus sash suicide TR setters (because kanga doesnt exist!!!!), and nobody who has actually heard of smogon is using greninja. all this shows is that a decent amount of people in the 1850 stats still dont know how to play the game.

90) Ludicolo ----- Kingdra is 53rd and loses to Amoonguss
91) Hydreigon ----- While Garchomp sits at 7th....
99) Rotom-H ----- I think I've overused caps, so I won't use it here, but this totally deserves caps. Talonflame is 8th, and a far superior fire type is this deep in the sewer of 1% usage?

There is a variety of reasons to use Kingdra over Ludicolo: 1) much better defensive typing / defenses, which is p big in this meta. for example, he actually resists fire, and is neutral to bug and fly. Ludi can't actually beat zard or tbird bc of this, and loses to landog with u-turn. 2) Spread move. need i say more (helps with amoong weakness n_n). 3) does not suffer from ridiculous 4mss. ludi has to choose 4/5 of protect, fake out, ice beam, water move, and grass move, and all of them are essential to not sucking. 4) higher speed. ludi actually has trouble beating tran bc of this; unless it uses scald you can sub to a miss if ludis partner cant break tran's subs. of course there's reasons to use ludi too, the big ones being fake out and beats rotom-w, but i wouldn't necessarily say it should be more used than kingdra.

Garchomp similarly has a lot of things going for it that hydrei dont. that 4 spe is fucking crucial, since without it you lose to (focus blast) charizard-y, kanga, gene, and thundariel, which chomp beats. hydreigon offers less defensively, too (rocky helmet + rough skin is amazing), and special dragon got basically raped this gen while physical dragon is as strong as before. Yeah, it's also got things going for it, like not being intimi/wow weak (which sucks for EVERY physical attacker qq), and having different (i hesitate to say better) coverage, and it's doubtful that it's actually nearly that bad, but i'd also say that chomp is better here, and by a good amount.

As for Rotom-H: CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME THE SECRET TO USING HIM. everyone but me seems to have gotten this memo that says he's excellent, but i can never make him work. maybe i'm trying to use H too much like W? its a damn shame that everything that carries ground carries rock though. idk. help pls

I disagree on that judgement with Scizor and Talonflame.

Though doubles is jam packed with Fire-types I really still do find Scizor to be useful due to its classic useful traits - its priority, U-turn, and whatever else you can throw on there like Superpower, Bug Bite, Iron Head, or something, giving it quite a bit of utility. It you ignore the 4 Pokemon in the Top 15 that are Fire-types you will see that Cresselia, Tyranitar, and Togekiss (also Terrakion and the super annoying aromatisse) are weak to Scizor's STAB attacks, and unlike Genesect you can invest in bulk in order to take multiple attacks. I still find Scizor to be fairly useful and I really like its typing and bulk.

I also somewhat disagree with Zach's assessment of Scizor. It may have lost steel gem, but mega scizor has much better bulk with which to set up an SD, and can outspeed min rotom-w with only 92 EVs, as opposed to the base which needs twice that (though i guess base can get away with it by running lum). Also, as per always, he can steal sitrus berries . His weakness to fire, which is a pretty dominant type in this metagame, is absolute dicks on wheels though, and his one major drawback that keeps him from being absolutely jizz-tier. it can still be supported, but he is just a walking setup opportunity :(

the reason you egged me into responding was that you mentioned u-turn. Is that actually any good? Even when i didn't run SD in Gen V, I found myself dropping U-turn for other moves: bug bite, superpower, protect, feint, bullet punch. I've found that u-switch is only really good in doubles on fast Pokemon, which scizor is definitely not, since it prevents you from ever really having a too bad lead matchup, and keeps important assets safe early game (especially it's good on intimidators, ie landog and manectric). if you've had a different experience though id like to hear how u-turn scizor works.

The thing I like about Talonflame is that it can pick off foes like Hitmontop or Conkeldurr, snipe a foe with a strong Brave Bird inside or outside of Trick Room, set up a Tailwind before it dies. This also means it can almost OHKO stuff like Charizard before it gets attacked and it makes a good way to finish off dangerous threats like PuP Kangaskhan since it outspeeds other priority moves due to its high speed. It may not have that many roles to provide for a team, but Talonflame has really done work for me most of the time that I use it.

The problem with tflame is that he contributes literally nothing to the defensive structure of a team. You cannot count on him to take any type of hit or switch in on anything. His ability to snipe and pressure faster teams is incredibly useful, but then you're stuck building a five-poke defense. for bulkier players (like myself) that's really nearly impossible. Talonflame seems like sixth gen bisharp: a pokemon really good in vgc but fucked by the transition to doubles

the reason i came here to post was actually follow me, though. i'm finding it impossible to make a gen vi team without a solid follow me user; it's just so great in the metagame, be it rachi, volca, amoonguss, or togekiss. which is why this is so confusing: | 68 | Jirachi | 2.90318% | 5245 | 2.420% | 0 | 0.000% |

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

the reason you egged me into responding was that you mentioned u-turn. Is that actually any good? Even when i didn't run SD in Gen V, I found myself dropping U-turn for other moves: bug bite, superpower, protect, feint, bullet punch. I've found that u-switch is only really good in doubles on fast Pokemon, which scizor is definitely not, since it prevents you from ever really having a too bad lead matchup, and keeps important assets safe early game (especially it's good on intimidators, ie landog and manectric). if you've had a different experience though id like to hear how u-turn scizor works.

tbh since I haven't really played that much doubles I mostly ended up putting it on there because it worked in other tiers and I was testing it out :P. However, the main thing I liked about U-turn is that it allowed me to pivot into an Intimidate user or a resist, although I really did wish I had Bug Bite at times. Though you may be able to do that with a fast U-turn user better, there is quite a bit of switching at times in such a fast metagame like Doubles, and it can be hard to exactly know what's going on. There are also, however, a lot of Pokemon that will try predict these switches. If you are really fast you may mispredict and lose a Pokemon (or two), but a slower one allows Scizor to let one of your Pokemon switch in safely, as Scizor is difficult to OHKO without a Fire attack. It can set up an ideal match-up easier, but it really doesn't help the other Pokemon on the field (I often take that turn to use Protect on my partner) and get it in without much of a hassle. Again, it is helpful, but I will admit it isn't always ideal since Scizor is limited in moveslots. I think this about every move except Bullet Punch (and Protect), however.

The problem with tflame is that he contributes literally nothing to the defensive structure of a team. You cannot count on him to take any type of hit or switch in on anything. His ability to snipe and pressure faster teams is incredibly useful, but then you're stuck building a five-poke defense. for bulkier players (like myself) that's really nearly impossible. Talonflame seems like sixth gen bisharp: a pokemon really good in vgc but fucked by the transition to doubles

In turn (no pun intended) the above helps you put stuff like Talonflame onto the field in the first place. Even without that, I still find it useful. Other than Rotom-W most Flying resists can be taken out using Earthquake, a move that Talonflame happens to be immune to. That means it isn't very hard to do this, and Talonflame can do a healthy amount of damage with Brave Bird (it 2HKOs 4/0 Gyarados at -1, which is pretty solid). I found it helpful when I had pretty much all my bases covered except against sweepers as a collective term. A 5 Pokemon defense isn't exactly impossible to do, as I don't see that much out of the ordinary when battling that needs 6 Pokemon to cover. I completely understand where you are coming from though - against the more defensive Pokemon and early game it is not very good aside from guaranteeing a Tailwind, and on defensive teams it doesn't contribute much. However, it is invaluable against other offensive teams when aren't focusing solely on bulk due to Tailwind and Brave Bird. I usually don't find it taking hits well at all like you said, but it doesn't find itself getting too many hits landed on it anyway when I use it.

i hope this makes some sense

 

[Braverius]

I disagree on that judgement with Scizor and Talonflame.

Though doubles is jam packed with Fire-types I really still do find Scizor to be useful due to its classic useful traits - its priority, U-turn, and whatever else you can throw on there like Superpower, Bug Bite, Iron Head, or something, giving it quite a bit of utility. It you ignore the 4 Pokemon in the Top 15 that are Fire-types you will see that Cresselia, Tyranitar, and Togekiss (also Terrakion and the super annoying aromatisse) are weak to Scizor's STAB attacks, and unlike Genesect you can invest in bulk in order to take multiple attacks. I still find Scizor to be fairly useful and I really like its typing and bulk.

Those moves bolded are pretty bad ways to use Scizor, but after testing it last night (and using CHAINSCIZOR) I actually do think it's pretty good.

The thing I like about Talonflame is that it can pick off foes like Hitmontop or Conkeldurr, snipe a foe with a strong Brave Bird inside or outside of Trick Room, set up a Tailwind before it dies. This also means it can almost OHKO stuff like Charizard before it gets attacked and it makes a good way to finish off dangerous threats like PuP Kangaskhan since it outspeeds other priority moves due to its high speed. It may not have that many roles to provide for a team, but Talonflame has really done work for me most of the time that I use it.

I don't think any reasoning could change my mind on Talonflame. Pwne covered it pretty well:

The problem with tflame is that he contributes literally nothing to the defensive structure of a team. You cannot count on him to take any type of hit or switch in on anything. His ability to snipe and pressure faster teams is incredibly useful, but then you're stuck building a five-poke defense. for bulkier players (like myself) that's really nearly impossible.

 

[Arcticblast]

I personally see Talonflame almost as more of an "oh shit" button than anything else. It's a nice tactical nuke, but its best asset by far is that it can revenge kill so well - things don't usually take Choice Band Brave Birds like nothing. Even max HP Heatran has to be careful; those Brave Birds break it's Subs. Unfortunately since it's so difficult to get in it's really limited to "that perfect moment," meaning that your opponent basically has to have two things that lose to it on the field.

While I'm here, one Pokemon I tested for a while (albeit on a terrible team) was Choice Band Excadrill. Oh my lord that thing is ridiculous. Iron Head destroys Togekiss and Mold Breaker Earthquake destroys everything else. Yeah you can't really run it with Rotom, but CharY is a sick partner for it. Good luck switching in your Intimidator on a CharY...

 

[Pocket]

Thanks for posting, Braverius :]

I am not sure if Heatran deserves the #1 slot, but I am not surprised that it's up there. It is immune to Fire-type, quad resists Fairy, resists Dragon, and roasts Steel-types. It can easily set up a Sub on the likes of Scizor, Amoonguss, Cresselia, Latios without HP Ground, and start chipping away at the team with strong Heat Waves. Subtran often forces the opponent to double-target it, which can be thwarted by a well-timed Protect. It does an effective job at diverting attention away from its partner.

What Pokemon did you expect to be #1, btw? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this one ;d

I find Garchomp better in XY than in BW2 fsr. As you have mentioned, Fire-type resistance is just so much better this gen now with Sun being a lot more common. Not to mention its 102 base Speed tier also lets it snipe down the new threats Charizard Y and Kangaskhan. Rock slide resists always come in handy, too. STAB Earthquake is great for some of the toughest mons of XY, such as Aegislash, Heatran, Tyranitar, Mawile, and Bisharp. In a sandstorm, Mega Garchomp can be particularly devastating with its QuakeSlide enhanced by Sand Force. The drop in Rain usage makes Garchomp all the more effective imo.

I do agree that Terrakion deserves a lot more usage for its ability to shit on Tyranitar, Charizard, Heatran, and Kangaskhan. The ubiquity of Landorus-T may possibly be affecting its usage.

Pwnemon raised most of the reasons why Kingdra is still better than Ludicolo (although he missed the fact that Ludicolo is immune to Amoonguss's Rage Powder). Muddy Water spam is great in Rain, while Ludicolo has to rely on Hydro Miss to take advantage of Rain's power. Focus Energy Scope Lens Kingdra is a boss - you can spam Draco Meteors without the care in the world about the special attack drops, since every move will be scoring critical hits. It could be a bit hard to set up, though, especially since Rain only lasts for five turns now.

I am not a big fan of Hydreigon in XY. It's dual STAB aren't as lethal as they were last gen thanks to the addition of Fairy-types. I'd rather not be cock-blocked by Togekiss if I can help it. Its Fighting-type weakness can still be an issue, too. This is why I find myself using Latios more, despite its vulnerability to Sucker Punches and more Steel-types. Psyshock does a decent amount of damage to Togekiss, and it does a much more solid job at checking Charizard Y than Hydreigon.

I'd also like to know what's so good about Rotom-H. It lacks the clutch priority Brave Bird of Talonflame, and is just as susceptible to Rock Slide, Tyranitar, and Rotom-W's Hydro Pumps. Just like Rotom-W it's cock-blocked by Dragon-types. It does a decent job in checking Charizard Y, Heatran, Steel-, and Grass-types I suppose!

What does Gourgeist do better than Trevenant / Dusclops? All I can think of is Trick-or-Treat.

While I'm here, one Pokemon I tested for a while (albeit on a terrible team) was Choice Band Excadrill. Oh my lord that thing is ridiculous. Iron Head destroys Togekiss and Mold Breaker Earthquake destroys everything else. Yeah you can't really run it with Rotom, but CharY is a sick partner for it. Good luck switching in your Intimidator on a CharY...

Thanks for sharing, Arcticblast :] I've actually run LO Moldbreaker Excadrill with Charizard Y, and it is indeed potent. It offers some nice electric immunity and rock slide resists, while it appreciates sun drying out water offense and Heat Waves burning grass. One thing you could try adding is Drill Run, just in case you need to run it with other non-airborne teammates.

 

[Braverius]

What does Gourgeist do better than Trevenant / Dusclops? All I can think of is Trick-or-Treat.

Has more bulk than Trevenant, is more reliable if you're setting TR with it, gets Leech Seed for better sustainability, actually has the ability to attack, doesn't need to rely on obvious Eviolite as its item (therefore isn't TOTAL taunt bait), godlike typing (completely shuts down Kanga, Garchomp, Rotom-W, Scizor, Cress, Landorus-T, and most Conk).

Trick or Treat really isn't that great, but I guess it could be used decently well with Tyranitar.

 

[BlankZero]

Has more bulk than Trevenant, is more reliable if you're setting TR with it, gets Leech Seed for better sustainability, actually has the ability to attack, doesn't need to rely on obvious Eviolite as its item (therefore isn't TOTAL taunt bait), godlike typing (completely shuts down Kanga, Garchomp, Rotom-W, Scizor, Cress, Landorus-T, and most Conk).

Trick or Treat really isn't that great, but I guess it could be used decently well with Tyranitar.

Are you saying Trevenant doesn't meet all these requirements (other than the bulk claim. Gorgeist is bulkier.)?

Trev gets the same typing, kills 252 HP Rotom with Adamant 44EV Wood Hammer, has HarvestSitrus (which works amazingly with all the Sun running around), can run a decent Trick Room set, etc.

If you want the bulk, go Gorgeist, but Trevenant has the attack power advantage and can function well outside of TR.

 

[Cased]

I started really getting into the Doubles Metagame since R_Inanimate and Pocket are my teammates and two really good players, and I've really been liking the meta. I've been mainly using Sash Deo-A w/ Rocks and Mega Kanga as my leads and they're really great together. It matches up pretty damn well against a lot of the standard leads in the metagame, since Deo-A can take on all the Intimidate Pokemon that annoy Mega Kangaskhan. Stealth Rock has been fantastic so far, it's pretty damn sweet having Togekiss / Genies / Zard Y taking substantial amount of damage from just switching in, and there's rarely any teams who have Defog/Rapid Spin so that's really cool.

I've been using Bisharp a lot and I can't fathom why it isn't used more, completely bones Cresselia and Sucker Punch is really strong, and anything that's frail and fast usually takes a shitload from Sucker Punch, if SR weak then it usually dies. If it's bulky and not very fast, Knock Off completely bones it, getting rid of Sitrus Berry and other important items seems to be a lot more important in this specific tier, and it's worked great for me. Also Defiant is obviously incredible, makes the opponent think twice about using Electroweb / Icy Wind, Intimidate users like Landorus-T / Hitmontop / Scrafty / Gyarados can't switch in, or else they risk a +1 Knock Off or Iron Head, which severely cripples them, and usually puts them in Sucker Punch range. It's basically the only physical attacker in Doubles I've played with that you can't switch in your Intimidate Pokemon and be able to handle it. Obviously Dark / Steel coverage is fantastic as well, and I'm sure a lot of people like it but I just haven't heard a lot of discussion about it, so I figured I'd mention it as my first ever Doubles post.

tl;dr Pocket is cute

 

[Pocket]

Yea, Bisharp is great. Dark-typing is better than ever now, since it is the only typing that resists both Dark and Ghost moves, not to mention Steel losing its Dark resistance. Combine Dark-type with Steel-type's unique set of resistances and fairy-slaying capabilities, and you got a really distinct Pokemon. Firing off that priority STAB Sucker Punch puts many mons into checkmate position, and Knock Off buff has also made Bisharp a lot less reliant on Sucker Punch to dish some major damage. There are other Defiant mons like Tornadus and Braviary, but neither of them have the powerful, virtually unresisted priority nor the resistances of the knight. Bisharp is one of the few mons that can switch into Aegislash relatively safely and also not give any fucks about King's Shield thanks to Defiant. LO Knock Off also has enough power to OHKO max HP Aegislash 68% of the time in its shield form! Bisharp does have a nasty weakness to Fire-types, but Stealth Rock fucks them up good.

I think your Bisharp particularly shines b/c you went all-out offensive with Life Orb, while most Bisharp select a more conservative item. Life Orb bestowed your Bisharp some crazy kills. At +1, LO Iron Head even possesses a 62.5% chance to OHKO Hitmontop and 56% chance to OHKO 252 HP / 92 Def Togekiss! With LO (with or without SR, depending on Gyarados's spread), +1 Sucker Punch easily puts Gyarados out of commission. After SR damage, +1 LO Sucker Punch should also OHKO even the bulkier Landorus-T variants. Watching you taking names with Bisharp made me realize that I have been using this Pokemon wrong all along x_x

tl;dr Cased is pimpin dubs

 

[dcae]

I decided to try out Smogon Doubles on the account that I've always liked the different strategy going into doubles style playing. From my ladder playing so far, as well as a few singles vs some doubles players, I've found this to be a really great, balanced metagame. Lots of strategies are viable and nothing is ridiculously overcentralizing. The team I used focused around Tailwind and bulky offense. I found Tailwind to be a rather nice strategy on the side, but not necessarily as a main method, since it isn't as reliable as I would've liked. Probably the Pokemon I enjoyed using the most with this team was Specs Sylveon, which is really amazing. Hyper Voice Pixilated off that SpA deals some massive damage, and has a bit of a surprise factor. Under Tailwind, it becomes even more terrifying, since its slow trait is removed. Despite the metagame not being in its favor, seen by the omnipresence of Charizard Y, I found it to still pull massive weight, especially when supported by Follow Me.

Another Pokemon I've been testing out has been Mega Garchomp, who looked to me to have high potential thanks to its bulk and excellent typing, coupled with STAB Earthquake as a very strong spread move. Thanks to its massive Attack and Special Attack stat, it goes mixed very easily, and with that movepool, has been very effective. The key factor to me has been the threat of the EQ along with the fact that even when Intimidated, it can fire off Draco Meteors to take out Pokemon who would think they are safe, such as Landorus T. Since it's so bulky, and its speed is solid for doubles, I found it a very exciting Pokemon to use and one that should be used more than it is atm.

 

[Joim]

The main problem of Rotom-H is Rotom-W existing. It's a great fire type, we can all agree, its main problem is Excadrill which isn't used that much, but then we have shittons of Rock Slides and Rotom-W around to use Will-O-Wisp, we have other Fire-types which have a more reliable STAB than Overheat and other Electric-types provide better support to the team, like Prankster Thundurus or Thundurus-T to switch in on Electrowebs.

Regular Gourgeist doesn't have much on Trevenant, to be honest. Harvest Sitrus is an excellent tool to keep tree alive and, unless you focus on him or have some Heat Waves around or Knock it Off, tree is going to stay around fucking your team up. True, both are better than Dusclops overall, but Dusclops has a godlike bulk that, given you shut down Taunt, it's going to be giving support and burning opponents to no end. You need to double hit Dusclops (sometimes twice) to get rid of it without Taunt, but it's true that Dusclops needs a more dedicated team to it for it to work as a support mon, as opposite to Tree or Gourgeist.

Bisharp is an absolutely underrated Pokémon, probably due to its weakness to Earthquake and double weakness to Fighting types, which makes it slightly hard to use given the over abundance of Hitmontop, Scrafty, and Mega-K. True, that Intimidate puts it at +1, but a single Close Combat or even strong Drain Punch ends its presence, so you have to either clean up first or team it with the most excellent Togekiss or Amoonguss.

 

[BlankZero]

The easiest way of keeping Bisharp alive is: Hitmontop.

Wide Guard. Intimidate. Fake Out. Feint. A Strong CC, even not fully invested.

The next easy way is Togekiss. Tailwind solves your Speed issues, Follow Me helps redirect pesky Mach Punch spam, it dodges EQ and forces Rock Slide or Stone Edge, the former of which Bisharp resists easily.

You can also run Focus Sash to really throw people, but Life Orb does so much damage, it's really hard to give it up.

 

[Lolk]

Sucker Punch is also incredibly reliable in a tier where Tailwind and Trick Room are common and Choice Scarfs are not that common. The Pokemon could even be targeting Bisharp's partner and it could pick it off. I also like how it cockblocks Cresselia; switching into and Icy Wind is the funniest thing. Plus a STAB Knock Off is always appreciated in Doubles and it's not like you are going out of the way to find a Steel-type STAB to hit Fairies. There is just so much Utility in Bisharp it is craaaazy.

Priority in general is pretty fantastic in Doubles which is why Bisharp, Scizor, Azumarill, and Talonflame are so good despite their glaring weaknesses in the metagame. Literally almost every dominant playstyle (Trick Room, Chlorosweep, Swift Sweep, Tailwind) is checked by priority, which is why it is mandatory for me to include at least one of these Pokemon.

 

[Sky-Scythe]

In doubles, I've been using Slurroid (Luminous Moss Slurpuff) and I feel it's next thing to broken in this meta. It comes out first with Greninja, who surfs, giving Slurpuff +1 Sp.Def and +50% right off the bat. Slurpuff then uses Cotton Guard. Over the next few turns, some sinister combination of Wish and Calm Mind is used. It works extremely well, despite its predictability which may be one of the few factors keeping it off any ban lists.

 

[Joim]

In doubles, I've been using Slurroid (Luminous Moss Slurpuff) and I feel it's next thing to broken in this meta. It comes out first with Greninja, who surfs, giving Slurpuff +1 Sp.Def and +50% right off the bat. Slurpuff then uses Cotton Guard. Over the next few turns, some sinister combination of Wish and Calm Mind is used. It works extremely well, despite its predictability which may be one of the few factors keeping it off any ban lists.

Ever common taunt breaks this.

 

[youngjake93]

Ever common taunt breaks this.

Technically you could preserve for lategame or just press cotton guard while the taunt user isn't on the field. However, the bigger problems are that you can just kill Slurpuff even after it wastes several turns setting up and it won't be very threatening with only 2 moveslots not dedicated to boosting. The combo mentioned even lacks an item and starts off with dmg from STAB Surf.
If you're gonna boost, it should either be something with beastly offensive presence and/or virtually impossible to kill. Slurpuff misses the marks all together imo and certainly isn't close to "broken"

 

[Sky-Scythe]

Technically you could preserve for lategame or just press cotton guard while the taunt user isn't on the field. However, the bigger problems are that you can just kill Slurpuff even after it wastes several turns setting up and it won't be very threatening with only 2 moveslots not dedicated to boosting. The combo mentioned even lacks an item and starts off with dmg from STAB Surf.
If you're gonna boost, it should either be something with beastly offensive presence and/or virtually impossible to kill. Slurpuff misses the marks all together imo and certainly isn't close to "broken"

I see your point. I was speaking from the success I've been seeing with this set recently, rather than overall effectiveness, but you've raised some very strong points. I don't do double battles often, but I should probably reconsider my team. Thanks!

 

[Braverius]

(0) Are you saying Trevenant doesn't meet all these requirements (other than the bulk claim. Gorgeist is bulkier.)?

Trev gets the same typing, kills 252 HP Rotom with Adamant 44EV Wood Hammer, (1) has HarvestSitrus (which works amazingly with all the Sun running around), (2) can run a decent Trick Room set, etc.

If you want the bulk, go Gorgeist, but Trevenant has the attack power advantage (3) and can function well outside of TR.

0: Yes
1: Because Trevenant is going to stop sun
2: And Gourgeist can't? Not like TR is really good on either anyways.
3: Gourgeist is way better outside of TR because of its bulk

 

[BlankZero]

0: Yes
1: Because Trevenant is going to stop sun
2: And Gourgeist can't? Not like TR is really good on either anyways.
3: Gourgeist is way better outside of TR because of its bulk

I have not personally seen a single Gourgeist in higher level play, so I can't attest to its usefulness. Can you point me to some replays or even YouTube games?

Pocket EDIT: BlankZero, check out Biosci vs kingofkongs spl match

 

[adman2]

One thing I've noticed while playing with a Gravity team is that this metagame is extremely hostile to Dragons. Every other Pokemon seems to have either an Ice or Fairy attack, to the point where things like Garchomp are almost worthless. Fairies in general do a lot better here, as physical attacks are much less common than in Singles.

Goodra is still worth using, and even a Modest 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, 4 Special Defense with Assault Vest can take hits pretty well.

I tend to run into more Sun than Rain teams, probably because everyone loves Charizard Y. "Slow weather" through Mega Evolution can mess up other teams pretty well (unless they have manual weather).