Metagame Doubles Ubers

[DaWoblefet]

Welcome to Doubles Ubers, where beasts like Zacian-Crowned roam wild! Like all official Smogon tiers, Doubles Ubers is restricted to Pokemon that are currently obtainable in Sword & Shield. This isn't National Dex, so you'll have to hold out for future DLC to be released if you're looking to Dynamax your Arceus in Doubles.

Doubles Ubers is a 6v6 doubles format with no Pokemon banned. Otherwise, it mirrors most clauses from Doubles OU, such as Species Clause and Evasion Clause (notably, you are allowed to Dynamax, and Gravity Sleep clause is not present). You can play DUbers on Pokemon Showdown, usually through the Doubles Ubers ladder. You can also ask for challenges in the Smogon Doubles room for battles with experienced players. Feel free to discuss DUbers in this thread, the Smogon Doubles room, or the #dubers channel in the Doubles Discord.

Full Ruleset

Bring 6 Pokemon, Doubles. Team Preview on. Players can use only and all Pokemon obtainable in Pokemon Sword & Shield.

PLAY RESTRICTIONS

• Endless Battle Clause: Anything capable of intentionally creating an endless battle is banned.
• Evasion Moves Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.
• OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Horn Drill, Guillotine, Sheer Cold, or Fissure.
• Species Clause: Players cannot use two Pokemon with the same Pokedex number on the same team.

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Sample Teams (click the six Pokemon to view Showdown importable)
/ / / / / - DaWoblefet's Weakness Policy Ho-Oh balance
/ / / / / - AuraRayquaza Grimmsnarl sun offense
/ / / / / - lord death man's Max Airstream + Magearna balance
/ / / / / - frania's TornOgre offense
/ / / / / - Yuichii's Zamazenta semiroom

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Speed Tiers
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Viability Rankings
Doubles Ubers tiering is done by DaWoblefet, Lord Death Man, n10sit, Yellow Paint, and Yuichi. Within tiers, Pokemon are ordered alphabetically. Feel free to suggest nominations in this thread!

>>Tier 1<<

Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.

Calyrex-Shadow
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Yveltal
Zacian-Crowned

>>Tier 2<<

Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1.

Amoonguss
Blastoise
Groudon
Incineroar
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Venusaur
Xerneas
Zamazenta-Crowned

>>Tier 3<<

Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.

Calyrex-Ice
Grimmsnarl
Magearna
Rayquaza
Regieleki
Rillaboom
Tornadus
Whimsicott
Zekrom

>>Tier 4<<

This tier contains either Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams, but are simply less effective than those in higher tiers, or are only particularly useful for certain team styles.

Drednaw
Eternatus
Indeedee-F
Melmetal
Solgaleo
Tapu Fini
Urshifu-Single-Strike
Zygarde

>>Tier 5<<

Pokemon that, while they have a niche in the metagame, often struggle to find situations where they thrive, either because of the support required or their poor matchups.

Coalossal
Dialga
Ditto
Jirachi
Marshadow
Mew
Palkia
Reshiram
Tapu Koko
Tyranitar

 

[Mindape]

My initial observation is that speed control more generally, and Trick Room in particular, is very strong, especially as Pokemon like Torkoal, Rhyperior and Dusk Mane Necrozma have great options for hitting basically every other Pokemon in the format very hard, given the abundance of steel types and fire types. Very few things resist ground moves in this format, and those that do don't tend to also resist fire moves.

Trick Room setups are well supported by Dusclops and Indeedee-Female in particular.

Lunala is strong as always due to its typing and utility moves. It along with Reshiram and Solgaleo fit well into teams with a tailwind or mixed TR setup for providing strong general offense.

Weakness Policy and Dynamax is absurd when put on Legendary Pokemon, and really allow big snowballs to happen. Solgaleo and Dusk Mane Necrozma are great at snowballing due to their typing and good movepool, where ground and steel moves can augment their defences while Weakness Policy boosts their offense, while others like Mewtwo, Reshiram and Lunala just try to break through opposing resources while Dynamaxed using overwhelming power.

I haven't used Eternatus or Zacian yet, but it seems like they need good support for maximum value - probably best kept for sealing up games late with their speed and offenses in neutral or favourable speed control. Their signature moves don't hit dynamax steel types very hard which is a bummer.

Getting the right non-legends to support your legendary Pokemon seems to be important in this format given the dex restrictions, which makes it more GS cup style than previous generations of DUbers.

Here are some teams I've made and done well with so far

Sun Hard TR with Dusk Mane Necrozma snowballs
https://pokepast.es/b862ca302dd55677

Fling Salac Berry Solgaleo shenanigans and friends:
https://pokepast.es/d9d357f184df7c5e

 

[KyleCole]

https://pokepast.es/cbccbbac79217d7d
This is a fun team I used to win a recent Dubers Room Tour. Full TR is just as fun to use/awful to play against as in DOU, and I figure if dubers players start building teams to counter this one, then that's fine by me.
The team functions as you can probably guess, lead indeedee/incineroar + best TR setter and get the room up. Once TR is active you can start beating away with the setter, or bulldoze and activate a WP.
I have also used scarf butterfree > Indeedee with this team. Butterfree makes Lunala less threatening as a lead and opens up the team to getting Fake Out'd by opposing Incineroar, but doesn't conflict with your own Incineroar Fake Out and threatens sleep!

 

[nadando]

Heyo this is the team I used to peak #1 on the Doubles Ubers ladder and I just wanted to share it with y’all.

Screens Offense

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spirit Break
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect
- Light Screen

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Trick Room

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Protect

Lunala @ Kasib Berry
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Moonblast
- Trick Room
- Protect

Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 8 HP / 172 Atk / 76 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Brick Break
- Shadow Sneak

Milotic @ Blunder Policy
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 4 SpD / 80 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Hypnosis
- Coil
- Recover

Description

I built this team through a lot of trial and error but eventually settled on these six, then tweaked the sets until I was satisfied. Grimmsnarl provides screen support and speed control to the rest of the team, which is greatly appreciated. When you pair screens with the team's natural bulk and busted Dynamax moves, it can often give you an insurmountable advantage over your opponent. Necrozma's role is to take big hits then hit back harder, which it does really well with screens, Prism Armor, and Max Moves. Zacian-C is the best Pokemon in the tier, there's really no reason not to use it unless you're running full room. Lunala checks opposing Necrozma, Lunala, and Trick Room teams. Marshadow is great revenge killer and checks Necrozma, Lunala, and even opposing Marshadow. Milotic rounds out the team by deterring supportive Fire-types like Incineroar and Arcanine, who otherwise give the team a lot of trouble.

I played around with the sets a ton but settled on these which I think are pretty sick actually. Grimmsnarl is fairly straight forward, but I'm using Spirit Break over a Dark-type move like Foul Play or Sucker Punch to allow Necrozma to more easily beat Special Attackers like Reshiram and Lunala. While I tried a bunch of really cool sets on Necrozma like Calm Mind, DD, and even Trick Room + Imprison, I settled on 3 Attacks cause it gives you great coverage and even better Max Moves. Seriously Max Steel and Max Ground are just dumb, especially if your opponent activates your Weakness Policy you can kinda just steam roll them. The EVs out speed paralyzed Zacian-C then they're dumped into Attack and HP. Speaking of Zacian, I'm running Close Combat over something like Play Rough so I can hit Incineroar hard, which is a big threat to the team. Lunala is Kasib Berry to give it an easier time versus opposing Lunala and Marshadow. Moonblast hits Dark-types that otherwise beat Lunala, and though Trick Room seems like an odd choice on such a fast team, it's necessary to check opposing Trick Room teams. Basically there's so many great Trick Room setters and supportive Pokemon in DUbers that it's difficult to prepare for them all, so my typical game plan is to just reverse their Trick Room then beat them from there. The Marshadow set is really sick, and I'm super proud of it. Here are the calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 8 HP / 76 Def Marshadow: 273-322 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
172 Atk Choice Band Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 324-384 (100.9 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Basically it gives you the best shot at beating opposing Marshadow 1 on 1, even though there may be speed ties. Finally Milotic's set is kinda disgusting but Hypnosis forces your opponent to either deal with it or risk being put to sleep. It's also great for burning Dynamax turns. The EVs let it out speed Zacian-C at +2, then I couldn't really figure out significant defensive benchmarks so I just gave it mixed bulk and called it a day.

Proof

I got some nominations for the VR

-> 1
Necrozma is the best Dynamax user in the tier. It's got great natural bulk and an amazing ability in Prism armor, which lets it (ab)use Weakness Policy better than any Pokemon. Its max moves are dumb, and it is also extremely versatile, being able to run physical or special sets. It can even play a more supportive role, with access to Trick Room, Ally Switch, and Moonlight. It's one of the few things that can kinda reliably check Zacian too.

-> 2
Priority screens and Thunder Wave are real good. It can also do shenanigans with Fake Out and Fake Tears.

-> 3 / Unranked
It's a worse Necrozma without Prism Armor.

That's all, thanks!

 

[HottieLamatie]

How's Eternatus doing at countering D-Max? I suppose the other Legendaries have similar moves to Eternatus as far as dealing extra damage is concerned.

 

[Lord Death Man]

I have some mild thoughts - I think the ladder in it's current state makes it hard to judge things, but I think there's some stand outs. I thought w/the DOU dmax ban that dubers might see a brief uptick in play so I thought I'd make some comments.

Dusk-Mane 2 > 1. Broken mon.

Solgaleo 2 > 3. Pretty obvious; Dusk-Mane, Zacian, and Jirachi share too much with it for it to be particularly good, though I do think the intimidate / dmax stat drop immunity is pretty useful and can serve it pretty well as a choice mon, alongside the actually good speed tier.

Kyurem-White 2 > 3. Reshiram is good somehow and Kyurem-White ends up much worse off because of it. Not much else to say.

Zamazenta-Crowned 2 > 3. Same issue as Solgaleo. Speed tier is a good but everything has coverage for steels and it doesn't hit hard at all. I have additional comments on the non-crowned form and they all apply to this, except this form is also slower than Mewtwo and has Ground/Fire weaknesses.

Some general comments.
Zamazenta (not crowned). Almost decent? It has a lot of things that make me think it could be useful and then it can't really leverage them. Faster than Mewtwo, has snarl, helping hand, wide guard, hits the only good intimdate mon SE, but otherwise it can't really leverage them into something that differentiates it super well from Marshadow. Lack of Roar and/or Body Press are killers. Not opposed to seeing someone inevitably make this work on the right team, its better than the Crowned form but that doesn't mean much. At the end of the day, it's still stronger and faster than Marshadow, just without the (defining) ghost stab, so I could totally see a life orb set being useful.

Marshadow. Only sash is really viable, but its super good at abusing all sorts of setup / weakness policy shenanigans, while also being good versus big threats like Jirachi / Lunala.

Zacian-Crowned. Stop running adamant, PLEASE. It's not worth it. I like sub + stabs best, but it just has great coverage in general.

Reshiram / Zekrom. These two being... good... feels wrong, but they've both found a niche in the current meta. Reshiram has a great stab combo and might actually be the only mon capable of OHKOing max hp Dusk-Mane. It also has an absurd stab combo, a good spread move, and tailwind. Zekrom, meanwhile, gained Dragon Dance, is stupidly strong, and seriously appreciates the bulk gain from dynamaxing.

Incineroar. I almost think this is tier 2? It's just so good in a physically oriented meta.

How's Eternatus doing at countering D-Max? I suppose the other Legendaries have similar moves to Eternatus as far as dealing extra damage is concerned.

Poorly I think - Eternatus can do some cool stuff because it has absurd bulk and speed, good power, and a nice typing, but Dynamax Cannon has the unfortunate downside of not really hitting too many notable dynamax abusers hard enough.

 

[DaWoblefet]

Here's probably my best team so far - Dusk Mane Zacian semiroom: https://pokepast.es/b453519a22c7fe3b
/ / / / /

Reshiram + Indeedee can be used to nuke Zacian around Follow Me, and Indeedee can assist Necrozma both in setting up Trick Room and setting off the Weakness Policy for it. Incineroar is Shuca to actually let it switch in vs. Necrozma and underspeeds it in TR for a Parting Shot. You could opt for a more physically defensive spread of 252 HP / 220 Def to guarantee being able to switch in on Jolly Zacian's Behemoth Blade + CC, but the extra Sp. Def is nice to ensure you survive Timid Reshiram's Life Orb Max Dragon 100%. Dusk Mane cuts back on Attack for additional special bulk; my benchmark for offense was to ensure +1 Max Steelspike still KOed Zacian (not strictly necessary because of Max Ground, but situationally useful and the bulk is nice).

After a couple weeks of metagame development, I think some pretty interesting trends have popped up:

• Teams are typically low on Fire and Ground resists. The best Pokemon in the tier, Zacian-Crowned and Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, are both weak to it; literally no Uber is off the Ground or Levitating, and few resist Fire. Pokemon like Torkoal or Rhyperior, which would be unheard of in previous DUbers, suddenly have a lot more viability just because they can hit a ton of Pokemon.
• Jirachi sucks. It offers very little support with Follow Me redirection, since it's weak to Reshiram, Lunala, all the tech Dark and Ground-type moves, and Incineroar. Indeedee-F is by far the superior Follow Me user, boasting additional utility in anti-Fake Out with Psychic Terrain, the ability to wall Lunala utterly, and Helping Hand to boost the effectiveness of Zacian or other beasts.
• Zacian is good, but it's not everything. It has warped the tier into respecting it significantly; you quite simply cannot Dynamax a Pokemon that doesn't resist Behemoth Blade with a clear conscience. However, beyond that, Zacian can have trouble pressuring OHKOs against a lot of the tier. It's much stronger as a lategame sweeper, similar to Marshadow from Gen 7 Doubles OU imo.
  • Zacian's main problem is it's very linear. You have whatever you want in terms of coverage, but you can't have everything. A lack of Crunch means being unable to seriously pressure Lunala, not having Close Combat means you don't trade favorably with Incineroar, and not having Play Rough makes you weak to Reshiram/Zekrom and things like Water-types. In addition, dropping a coverage move for Sub or Swords Dance feels really hard. Behemoth Blade is the only thing you definitely use; even Protect can be foregone on some compositions.
  • I'm on the Jolly > Adamant train too. Adamant is very appealing for the numbers (you still outspeed Mewtwo and Eternatus, gain extra damage), but the Speed tie matters and being able to force mons to reach a standard for what to outspeed matters too.
• I think Stealth Rock is probably really good in this tier. Chipping the Fire-types, breaking Lunala's Shadow Shield, and removing Sash from mons like Marshadow are really valuable tools; the problem is that the only viable rockers are Dusk Mane (which is typically WP and wants the coverage) or Mew.
• Sun is very good as an archetype. While I haven't seen it done yet, I think something like Torkoal / Venusaur / Charizard / Zacian / Reshiram +1 for Fire spam stack could be very potent.
• Dusk Mane may be better than Zacian. You simply cannot kill it after Dynamax, and if you hit it with a super effective move it gets WP and then it's over. Unlike last gen, where Incineroar trolled it out of viability, now you have Max Quake which is pretty phenomenal at deleting Incineroar. Being able to boost your defenses further is great, AND you have the option to Trick Room OR Dragon Dance. Sunsteel / EQ are mandatory, with a Speed control move of choice and a coverage move or Protect; I prefer Knock for Lunala and its utility pre-Dynamax.
• Incineroar should be running physically defensive spreads here. No Xerneas is around, but there's plenty of dangerous physical attackers that an Impish Nature and lots of EVs will appreciate. I think investing enough to live stuff like Reshiram's LO Max Dragon is fine, but you really want the physical defense in this tier.
• There's still plenty left to explore. I suspect a strong Dragon Dance Zekrom or Dusk Mane team will pop up in due time, same with sun Fire spam. Semiroom or hard Trick Room seem to be the most popular strategies initially.

I hope to add additional sample teams to the OP and rework the VR this month!

 

[DaWoblefet]

VR updates!

Now that the metagame has had about a month to settle itself, there's more room for clearly defined tiers. As a result, we now have a tier 4! I've enlisted the help of Yellow Paint to assist in the initial VR revisions, but please feel free to nominate suggestions to the viability rankings; we're still very early in the DUbers' metagame.

Changes to tier 1:
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane (2 -> 1)
The Weakness Policy set has shown to be metagame-defining; both Sunsteel Strike and Earthquake provide great coverage and defense boosts as max moves, and it functions well both in Trick Room and as an independent attacker with Dragon Dance.
Lunala (2 -> 1)
Lunala has many similar traits to Dusk Mane, with a plethora of power and the ability to function well in and out of Trick Room. It can do Weakness Policy in tandem with its absurd bulk from Shadow Shield, run Calm Mind as an alternative means of setting up, or run Colbur Berry to nearly guarantee a Trick Room.

Changes to tier 2:
Blastoise (UR -> 2)
Blastoise boasts a unique role in being both a Steel and Fire-type resistance with Follow Me and Fake Out, two very useful moves to support other Ubers. Yawn is great at forcing difficult choices with opposing Dynamax, and it gets additional phenomenal support moves in Haze and Life Dew. While more niche, a Shell Smash Water Spout set can also be decent, as few Pokemon resists Water in the tier.
Indeedee-F (3 -> 2)
Indeedee walls Lunala completely with Follow Me, which is a huge deal. Psychic Terrain blocks Fake Out and other priority attacks, and is unlikely to be reset without an unusual choice in Dynamaxed attacks. It's a great assist for setting Trick Room and Helping Hand.

Changes to tier 3:
Eternatus (2 -> 3)
Dynamax Cannon doesn't hit for impressive damage on most non-Dragon Dynamax targets. It carries a lot of shared weaknesses without a lot of independent strengths. Its moves simply aren't strong enough. Its speed is still impressive, though, and it can trade with a good number of Pokemon in the tiers above it.
Gyarados (UR -> 3)
Gyarados would be significantly better if it could outspeed Zacian at +1; still, it resists Behemoth Blade, so it can be a potent Dynamax sweeper with a set of Waterfall / Bounce / Earthquake / Dragon Dance. If Gyarados snowballs and gives threatening allies Speed boosts with Max Bounce, the game can be all but over.
Jirachi (2 -> 3)
Being weak to both Fire- and Ghost-type attacks leaves Jirachi open to a lot of shared weaknesses with partners it's trying to redirect attacks away from. Tons of Pokemon threaten it, and both Blastoise and Indeedee offer similar roles with Follow Me with better typings for most team compositions.
Kyurem-White (2 -> 3)
Very, very strong, but tends to be Dynamax-reliant and that is not good when Dusk Mane and Zacian are running around. Requires Tailwind and frankly Dynamax to be effective.
Milotic (UR -> 3)
Similar to Blastoise in being able to sleep Steel-types effectively, this time with Coil + Hypnosis. Its damage is very underwhelming, but it does also discourage Incineroar from switching in frequently. Teams without powerful special attackers will have trouble breaking Milotic if it can get going.

Tier 4:
The following Pokemon were moved down from tier 3 to more appropriately represent their power level:
Zamazenta (3 -> 4)
Whimsicott (3 -> 4)
Rhyperior (3 -> 4)
Gothitelle (3 -> 4)
Tyranitar (3 -> 4)
Venusaur (3 -> 4)
Dusclops (3 -> 4)
Ditto (3 -> 4)
Excadrill (3 -> 4)

New additions:
Grimmsnarl (UR -> 4)
Grimmsnarl can set up screens quickly to reduce the impact of the opponent's damage quickly. However, its usefulness ends beyond screens if the opponent has Indeedee, and it must choose between 8 turn screens with Light Clay and surviving an attack from a Steel-type with a Focus Sash.
Dracovish (UR -> 4)
There are few good Water-type resists in the tier, and with Speed control, Dracovish can pressure lots of damage on various targets. Choice Scarf Dracovish fails to outpace Zacian, and it's not quite slow enough to do Trick Room things, but if it can whack Dusk Mane with a boosted Fishious Rend, it will hurt.
Hitmontop (UR -> 4)
Hitmontop is a fair alternative to Incineroar, boasting Sucker Punch for ease of triggering an ally's Weakness Policy, as well as Wide Guard to handle any Heat Wave being thrown in the way of Zacian and co.
Gastrodon (UR -> 4)
Very few Pokemon resist Ground in the tier, and after a Stockpile, Gastrodon can potentially be difficult to KO, spreading Yawn to further annoy the opponent.

Pokemon that have been dropped to UR:
Zamazenta-Crowned
It tries to be a happy medium between regular Zamazenta and Zacian-Crowned and fails miserably at both.
Dragapult
Marshadow is a better fast Ghost and doesn't rely on Dynamax to be effective.
Jellicent
Awful. I initially thought this could be OK as a TR setter that could spread Will-o-Wisp and Strength Sap but yeah it's awful.
Lapras
If you want screens that badly, use regular Zamazenta or Grimmsnarl. Using up your Dynamax for a very weak Pokemon offensively by DUbers standards is hard to justify.
Kyurem-B
Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear don't change the fact that this mon gets completely bodied by the Steel-types. Awful.
Melmetal
Much better Steel-types are available.
Terrakion
Beat Up cheese is very dangerous in a metagame with Sash Marshadow; if it doesn't get Beat Up (with the wide selection of Follow Me users in the tier, very possible) it is utterly demolished by the majority of the tier, including but not limited to the Steel-types.
Togekiss
Fairy-type redirection doesn't really help when the attacks you're redirecting are Behemoth Blade and Sunsteel Strike. Does nothing Blastoise can't do, since you're definitely not maxing Togekiss here.

 

[Mindape]

I'd like to nominate Snorlax for tier 4.



While it requires a reasonable amount of support, but the belly drum set in particular is very threatening when set up, and indeedee/blastoise/Incineroar are easy to fit in supporters. GMax Lax is hard to KO (especially when paired with debuffs like intimidate), and with enough coverage options for the whole tier (notably ground and dark), it demands a response when it is out. Of course, when your opponent focuses on snorlax, that can free up room for your other slot to exert its own offensive pressure with which to overwhelm opponents, especially if you've used up your follow me support.

Thick Fat also allows it to match up better against the format's fire types, so it has that option as well as gluttony pinch berry.

 

[Mewtwo Uranium]

https://pokepast.es/ac07aee72946d69a

Tested

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesubers-1100850903

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesubers-1100857010

Deleted nominance for Eldegoss
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://pokepast.es/d65b3c5d68776d2b

Im gonna test this and when I get some results I'll get back to ya
Sorry I forgot the replays.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesubers-1100886459

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesubers-1100895315

 

[Lord Death Man]

I've been playing this meta again because the ladder is active when the DUU ladder isn't and I have a few thoughts on the VR. I don't feel comfortable sharing most of my sample teams because they're honestly a let down, but I will say I have either Substitute or Agility Magearna on every team.

Tier 1
Magearna should obviously be here, and I just don't quite think Lunala is on the same level as the other 3 Tier 1s; it's not bad at all, and is in fact probably even better than it was before thanks to Expanding Force and maybe Meteor Beam (which is meh but lets it delete Incineroar, essentially its only hard counter), but it's really hard to say Lunala is on the same level as the others. My only apprehension with this is that Lunala would be far and away the best thing in 2, only really competing with Reshiram, which brings me to...

Tier 2
Reshiram stands out as being leagues above the others, but is worse than Tier 1. Marshadow, Mew, Incineroar, and Blastoise all make up what I'd consider the other "top" Tier 2 mons, and then Zekrom, Mewtwo, Indeedee-F, and Solgaleo are all much more niche picks. I really think Mewtwo and Zekrom should drop; they're not bad per se, but Nasty Plot Mewtwo and Dragon Dance Zekrom are not on the same level as mons who are good out of the gate, and while Mewtwo has legitimate merits on Psyspam, Psyspam doesn't always need a third attacker.

I have no real thoughts on Solgaleo. It seems fine but Necrozma Dusk-Mane is right there so it's hard to fit on teams.

Tier 3
This tier feels kind of wonky but I just don't know what could possibly fix it bc of how the meta is. The meta is so centered on the Tier 1 threats that I truly don't think it matters at all what is floating around in here. I do feel Whimsicott should probably be here; Tailwind + Memento + Magearna is incredibly powerful, and also Tier 4 is pretty bad all things considered. If Mewtwo+Zekrom move here, it might be prudent to remove some of the mons in tier that haven't seen recent success. I think Necrozma Dawn Wing might need to be pushed down just because of the extreme opportunity cost of forgoing both Dusk Mane and Lunala. At the same time, it's still probably "better" than most of 4.

Tier 4
I think Pelipper and Kingdra merit spots here; Rain Cores have decent to good matchups versus Sun TR and Sun in general, which is, itself, ok on the merits of being anti-Tier 1/anti-meta, and Pelipper's access to Tailwind and Wide Guard feel a lot more useful than Politoed is. Kingdra is the best rain sweeper by far. I'm surprised that there's no webs setter, but I have no idea what one would even use (Ribombee with Speed Swap + Pollen Puff, probably?).

Few other thoughts; Rillaboom's access to Grassy Terrain seems rly useful, but Grass is an absolutely terrible offensive type. Urshifu Single-Strike with a Band has some legitimate uses but I feel apprehensive using it in a Magearna meta. Volcarona is very very hit or miss; half the meta is weak to fire and the other half doesn't care about anything Volcarona can do. Porygon2 probably deserves to be ranked on the same merits as Dusclops. Scizor has mostly the same good MUs, but even more bad ones.

tl;dr Nominations
Volcarona UR > 3 or 4 (no strong feelings either way)
Porygon2 UR > 3
Pelipper UR > 4
Kingdra UR > 4
Urshifu UR > 4
Mewtwo 2 > 3
Zekrom 2 > 3
Whimsicott 4 > 3

 

[DaWoblefet]

With the release of Crown Tundra DLC comes a whole host of new and returning Pokemon! How will these new Pokemon fair in a Steel-type dominated metagame of Magearna, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and Zacian-Crowned?

Calryex-Shadow

Base Stats: 100 HP / 85 Atk / 80 Def / 165 SpA / 100 SpD / 150 Spe
Ability: As One (combination of Unnerve and Grim Neigh; Grim Neigh = special Moxie)

Easily the most notable new addition is Calyrex-Shadow. It has access to two powerful spread moves, Expanding Force and Astral Barrage, the latter being a 120 BP Ghost-type move. Thanks to its high Speed, it is able to outspeed and OHKO Zacian-Crowned 13/16 of the time with Life Orb max Astral Barrage. It can also OHKO 252 HP/ 252 Sp. Def Calm Lunala through Shadow Shield. Even broken Magearna has to add some EVs in Sp. Def to avoid getting OHKOed. Magearna and Zacian also have to watch out for the slightly more powerful Max Ground coming off of Mud Shot that rounds out Calyrex-Shadow's coverage. As One acts as two abilities simultaneously; Unnerve (so the opponent can't eat resist Berries or heal from Sitrus, etc.) and Grim Neigh, which gets Calyrex a Sp. Atk boost on every KO it takes. When combined with its spread moves, it should be easy to rack up boosts quickly. In addition, max Ghost sets up KO opportunities for an ally Zacian, giving it dangerous utility with its partners.

Being Psychic / Ghost doesn't come without downsides though. Incineroar can easily be EVed to avoid being 3HKOed by max Astral Barrage, but it has to watch out for max Mud Shot, and Incineroar's typical Shuca Berry does nothing against Unnerve. Newcomer Yveltal definitely fairs the best, walling everything Calyrex can throw at it; the best Calyrex can do is Will-o-Wisp or Pollen Puff. It faints to Sash Marshadow's Shadow Sneak (unless Dynamaxed). Its bulk isn't poor, but it doesn't enjoy fighting against Speed control with these 4x weaknesses. Its reliance on spread moves out of Dynamax also makes it weaker to Wide Guard.

Because of the importance of Life Orb in picking up KOs on Pokemon like Zacian, I assume this would be the standard Calyrex set:

Calyrex-Shadow @ Life Orb
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Expanding Force
- Mud Shot
- Protect

The following past DUbers have returned to the metagame (ones that look especially appealing are in bold):

• Lugia - likely UR, don't see the meta as friendly to it.
• Ho-Oh - fantastic return; walls standard Steel-type sets, with terrific bulk, Tailwind, and Recover.
• Kyogre (not Primal) - might have some utility as a way of hitting Steel-types; I don't anticipate much weather. Scarf Water Spout is typically good when it's allowed, though you have to run Timid to outpace Zacian / Calyrex.
• Groudon (not Primal) - probably bordering irrelevancy without Primal
• Rayquaza (not Mega) - might be ok as a max target with max Dragon Ascent, Outrage, and V-create, but the return of Xerneas and the abundance of Steel-types makes the prospect seem worse
• Dialga - seems really meh initially
• Palkia - maybe it can do something with Kyogre? seems hard to pull off
• / Giratina - probably UR
• Xerneas - even with all the Steel-types, a Dynamaxed Geomancy Xerneas is no joke. With the abundance of Steel-types it will definitely have a harder time, but you can't ignore the power of a +2 +2 +2 Pokemon with crazy strong STAB moves.
• Yveltal - likely very very good; being the only Calyrex-Shadow counter in the tier will matter.
• Zygarde - likely UR.

The following returning Pokemon may have some relevance depending on how the metagame shapes up:

• Heatran - Eruption hits Steels hard and is no longer restricted to a Quiet Nature
• Cresselia - DUbers isn't short on Trick Room setters, but perhaps a support-oriented set has utility
• Victini - V-create hits the Steels hard and Final Gambit can be cheesy with Magearna
• Tornadus - Prankster Tailwind bot useful maybe? probably not
• / Landorus - Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power hits Steels hard; Therian may be viable as a source of Intimidate
• Tapu Lele - no Expanding Force hurts it, but may fair better than Indeedee-Male as a Mewtwo, etc. partner
• Tapu Fini - turning off Terrain and blocking Sleep never hurts; has great support moves in Swagger and Heal Pulse
• Tapu Koko - one of the fastest mons in the metagame
• Celesteela - walls the other Steel-types pretty hard, but probably too passive

The following new Pokemon also may see relevance in DUbers:

• Calyrex-Shadow - duh
• Regieleki - might overshadow Tapu Koko's role of a fast Electric-type doing support things. Outspeeding Zacian / Calyrex-Shadow is especially noteworthy.
• Calyrex-Ice - basically Trick Room Calyrex. Much more bulk, not walled by Yveltal, etc. Garbage defensive typing, but the bulk helps offset it a bit. It has a much better pick of offensive coverage; I would expect Glacial Lance / High Horsepower / Throat Chop to be standard, maybe Close Combat somewhere in there. Reliance on TR and competition with Calyrex-Shadow due to Species Clause will hurt it a lot.

 

[BigDaddyPhatSack]

So I have a question. If you were allowed only 2 restricted/uber mons, what type of team set-ups would be best? What are the best cores with that limitation? Are there any examples of moves/ev-spreads/items of the restricted mons you would use? Here's what I've come up with so far: https://pokepast.es/c10965c1b48ab9c5

 

[DaWoblefet]

>> Crown Tundra VR updates! <<​

We've had about a month to settle into the DUbers metagame. The metagame is far from settled, but with the help of n10sit, Lord Death Man, and Yellow Paint, new viability rankings are here to help guide you through the new Doubles Ubers metagame! You can see the full updated VR in the first post of this thread.

New Pokémon:

Tier 1:

• Calyrex-Shadow - Astral Barrage is an incredibly powerful move, and Calyrex has the offensive stats and Speed to back it up, complete with an Ability that helps it snowball. It often runs Focus Sash to tank two hits, but Life Orb is a great option for additional power. Its coverage moves are laughable, but you won't be laughing long when it outspeeds your whole team and OHKOs you.
• Magearna - Soul-Heart is an unfathomably broken ability in doubles, giving Magearna a boost every time any Pokemon faints on the field, whether Magearna took the KO or not. Soul-Heart warps gameplay to where it becomes suboptimal to KO an opponent's Pokemon if it means Magearna gets a boost and you're out of position to deal with it. It has great Steel / Fairy typing, Trick Room and Dynamax to further increase its snowballing potential.
• Kyogre - Water Spout in the rain is a good move. It doesn't matter if that's Scarf Water Spout, outspeeding and dealing huge damage to Calyrex or Zacian, Mystic Water Water Spout in tandem with Trick Room, Tailwind, or other Speed control, or just straight-up maxing it and blasting anything at all. It's a bit one-dimensional and was the most contentious tier 1 choice, but it performs that one role very well.
• Yveltal - Easily the best Calyrex check in the tier; Calyrex has nothing to hit it for super effective damage, and moves like Sucker Punch, Snarl, and Tailwind all cause big problems for it. However, Yveltal is a giant threat in its own right, being able to Dynamax for the powerful Max Airstream based on Hurricane or Oblivion Wing to outspeed the whole tier, or Max Darkness to drop Sp. Def and set up KOs for itself on subsequent turns. It has Max Heat Wave as coverage options for Magearna and Zacian, too. Yveltal can also play a support role with Psychic Seed, Snarl, and Tailwind, enabling teammates.

Tier 2:

• Amoonguss - Amoonguss's role in any format it's legal in is nearly always the same, and it's nearly just as good - a Pokemon that can both put opponents to sleep and Rage Powder threatening attacks away. It's one of the best Trick Room checks once TR goes up, underspeeding Magearna and Calyrex-Ice. Many TR teams are forced to Dynamax early to set a sleep-blocking Terrain to prevent Amoonguss from effectively doing its job. It can punish a cheeky Xerneas with Clear Smog (or Spore, if the Xerneas doesn't use Max Fairy for whatever reason), and it also has Pollen Puff as a way to further support allies with a way to heal 50% of their HP.
• Ho-Oh - Ho-Oh stands out as an important defensive Pokemon that can take hits well from the specially-oriented new tier 1 (save Kyogre), dealing heavy damage back. It also walls Zacian that opt not to run Wild Charge. Its high stats combined with Regenerator ensure it can withstand multiple turns, and it has access to Tailwind to support teammates. It can also opt to Dynamax itself, gaining Airstream or Quake boosts that make it even harder to take down. Access to Regenerator is icing on the cake, letting it take hits and switch out to shake off the damage.

Tier 3:

• Calyrex-Ice - A huge threat in Trick Room should you get it there, Calyrex-Ice has amazing coverage with Glacial Lance and High Horsepower, with a number of other coverage moves and the option to set Trick Room itself. It faces competition via Species Clause with its Ghost-type counterpart though, and its Psychic-typing makes it very weak to it, as well as Yveltal. Without many resists, Calyrex depends on moving first in Trick Room to attempt a reverse steamroll.
• Groudon - The loss of Red Orb hurts Groudon significantly, causing its duel with Kyogre to tend to favor the Water-type. Nevertheless, Precipice Blades is still a very clickable move in a tier with few Ground-type immunities. It functions as an emergency rain shut-off switch for allies looking to avoid a bruising from Kyogre, as well as enabling the terrifying Chlorophyll G-Max Venusaur. A Ground and Rock move are mandatory.
• Regieleki - One of my personal favorites, Regieleki's Speed gives it the jump on many of the tier's fastest Pokemon, including Scarf Kyogre, Zacian, and Calryex. Not only can Regieleki OHKO Scarf Kyogre, but it can also use Electroweb to allow other middling Speed Pokemon to act as if they had the Choice Scarf instead, allowing more Pokemon the opportunity to get the instant jump on some of the tier's greatest threats. Regieleki is very frail, however, fainting to physically invested Yveltal's Sucker Punch if significant investment is not considered. It also struggles heavily vs Trick Room, unsurprisingly, and its lack of coverage is tough vs Groudon.
• Tornadus - Players familiar with VGC 2019 will recognize the infamous "TornOgre" combo, combining Prankster Tailwind with sure-hit Hurricanes to pressure the Grass-types Kyogre hates fighting. Dynamic speed mechanics really bolster its role, and it has Brutal Swing as a way to trigger a speedy Dusk Mane's Weakness Policy. Having more offensive presence than Whimsicott is a positive trait, at a cost of a Water resist. It can also use Prankster Rain Dance to shut down opposing Groudon completely.
• Xerneas - Any VGC player would balk at the sight of a Xerneas in tier 3, but Xerneas faces large challenges in Doubles Ubers that it doesn't in VGC. Having more high-stat Pokemon to throw at it hurts. Zacian also hurts; Xerneas can't just OHKO it, even in Dynamax. In addition, it struggles to find the right opportunity to set up with the number of spread moves available, in addition to the immediate power of Dynamax. Still, an unchallenged Geomancy will still do just as much work as ever. Not to be underestimated, but equally, don't expect it to just Geomancy and insta-win anymore.

Tier 4:

• Celesteela - It does struggle with momentum issues, but a Steel-type with Wide Guard in a tier with many powerful spread moves is honestly enough to make it viable. Unlike Solgaleo and Lunala, it isn't weak to Astral Barrage, and so it can afford to get a turn wrong without being annihilated by Calyrex.
• Dialga - A good max target, similar to a special variant of Dusk Mane Necrozma with Draco Meteor / Flash Cannon / Earth Power. A Trick Room setter not immediately OHKOed by new tier 1 is also helpful.
• Kartana - it has good coverage and can trade with Kyogre in various circumstances. Its speed tier often leaves it wanting, but it can help out with Tailwind.
• Porygon2 - a Trick Room setter that isn't instantly OHKOed by Calyrex, and can threaten it back with Shadow Ball.
• Rayquaza - Air Lock is great for messing with Kyogre, and Dragon Ascent / V-create are strong attacks. Honestly, it's not a bad mon, it's just power crept.
• Rillaboom - One of the tier's few Fake Out Pokemon, complete with an immediate answer to Scarf Kyogre in Grassy Glide. Grass is pretty hit or miss in DUbers, so if it doesn't hit, it's missing hard.
• Tapu Fini - An important Water and Dark-type resist, with a number of support options, including Nature's Madness, Heal Pulse, Swagger, and more. Fini operates best in more bulky metagames, however, and DUbers is currently very fast-paced.
• Tapu Koko - Basically Regieleki but trades speed for being better vs. Yveltal and Nature's Madness.
• Tapu Lele - Although it faces competition with Indeedee-F, Tapu Lele is the preferred offensive Psychic Terrain setter of choice to have a super-effective attack against Yveltal. Its role as an offensive Psychic Terrain setter itself is quite niche, however.
• Victini - Final Gambit + Magearna may not be the greatest way to use Magearna, but it is viable enough to warrant a tier 4 slot to the best Final Gambit user.

UR: (they are inferior to other choices, do poorly vs top threats, or are simply bad; only mentioning the Pokemon explicitly banned from DOU):

• / Giratina (both formes)
• Lugia
• Palkia
• Urshifu
• Zygarde-Complete

Old Pokémon

Only covering changes to tiers. Generally, Pokemon tended to move down or remain the same due to power creep with all the new DUbers options.

Tier 1: Nothing moved to tier 1.
Tier 2: Nothing moved to tier 2.
Tier 3:

• Blastoise 2 -> 3; While still a potent support Pokemon with Follow Me and Fake Out, Blastoise is hurt by the addition of more spread moves. The Steel-types it loved to redirect are also generally less prominent.
• Marshadow 2 -> 3; Although the addition of a faster Psychic / Ghost to Shadow Sneak may initially look tempting, recall that Calyrex often holds a Focus Sash, and being pressured into using Shadow Sneak leaves you exploitable to redirection and Psychic Terrain. Plus, there's not much setup to go around that Marshadow particularly wants to steal. In general, Marshadow faces competition of "if you're going to use a Ghost-type, why not Calyrex?".
• Mew 2 -> 3; Like other Pokemon weak to Ghost / Dark, Yveltal and Calyrex being so good hurts Mew too much. It doesn't have the opportunity to do much more than Fake Out and hope it can Transform into another Uber to increase its viability.
• Necrozma-Dusk-Mane 1 -> 3; Calyrex-Shadow and Yveltal existing did Dusk Mane dirty. It is still a great threat in Trick Room if it has a Weakness Policy active, but options to revenge kill it post-Dynamax are more prevalent now.
• Reshiram 2 -> 3; Zacian is still definitely tier 1, and Reshiram loves to fight Magearna as well, but the influx of giant blue whales hurts its favorite task of spamming Heat Wave and Blue Flare.
• Venusaur 4 -> 3; one of the few buffs in the Crown Tundra changes comes due to the existence of Groudon and its new toy, G-Max Vine Lash. Only Amoonguss is a VRed Grass-type, which means everything takes chip damage, breaking a number of Focus Sashes in the tier. LO Max Earth Power OHKOes Zacian after said Vine Lash chip comfortably, for example. Moreover, it outspeeds everything in the tier with Chrollophyl activated and has a scary option to Sleep Powder if it chooses not to Dynamax straightaway.
• Whimiscott 4 -> 3; Whimiscott has moved back up in the rankings thanks to the current hyper offense nature of DUbers. Whimiscott itself is still pretty bad, but Prankster Tailwind in a format where moving first matters a lot is really good.

Tier 4:

• Charizard 3 -> 4; Venusaur is now the premier Gigantamax target on Sun. G-Max Wildfire is still a crazy good move, but with Venusaur and competition with Ho-Oh for a Pokemon with Fire / Flying typing, Charizard really has to justify being the one Dynamaxing in a tier full of Pokemon with much higher stats than it, a tier with Kyogre to boot.
• Jirachi 3 -> 4; I'm surprised this is still ranked personally; yet another Pokemon weak to Yveltal and Calyrex. It walls Magearna which is important, and Follow Me is still a very good move, but I doubt this survives another vote unless someone finds a really cool way to use it.
• Lunala 1 -> 4; a significant fall from grace, Lunala finds itself nearly entirely outclassed by Calyrex, save for its niche of learning Wide Guard. An influx of Calyrex checks also leads to an influx of Lunala checks by proxy.
• Mewtwo 2 -> 4; same problem of "Pokemon once quite strong relatively speaking now weak to Calyrex and Yveltal".
• Solgaleo 2 -> 4; being Dusk Mane part 2 now matters little when Dusk Mane itself is hurting to stay relevant. It's not completely out of luck with Wide Guard, but it sure is close.
• Eternatus 3 -> 4; relative power creep.
• Torkoal 3 -> 4; Torkoal is no longer mandatory as a sun setter thanks to Groudon. It still hits hard in Trick Room, but with more Kyogre, it struggles to provide the impact it once did. It still has Yawn as a important way to distinguish it over Groudon.
• Zekrom 2 -> 4; It's great against Kyogre, Ho-Oh, and Yveltal (sort of), and Behemoth Blade doesn't do much to it, but Zekrom generally just has been power crept. It doesn't trade well enough to keep up.

UR: (many of these were niche picks pre-Crown Tundra that are now totally outclassed, or simply bad)

• Gyarados 3 -> UR
• Kyurem-White 3 -> UR
• Milotic 3 -> UR
• Necrozma-Dawn-Wings 3 -> mega UR
• Rotom-Heat 3 -> UR
• Dusclops 4 -> UR
• Dracovish 4 -> UR
• Excadrill 4 -> UR
• Gastrodon 4 -> UR
• Rhyperior 4 -> UR
• Tyranitar 4 -> UR
• Zamazenta 4 -> UR

Full votes

Pokemon	Old rank	DaWoblefet	lord death man	n10siT	Yellow Paint
New mons (post-IoA)
Amoonguss	N/A	2	2	2	3
Calyrex-Ice	N/A	3	3	3	3
Calyrex-Shadow	N/A	1	1	1	1
Celesteela	N/A	4	4	UR	UR
Comfey	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Cresselia	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Crobat	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Dialga	N/A	4	UR	4	4
Giratina-A	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Giratina-O	N/A	4	UR	UR	UR
Groudon	N/A	3	3	3	3
Heatran	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Ho-Oh	N/A	2	2	2	2
Indeedee-M	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Kartana	N/A	4	3	4	UR
Kyogre	N/A	1	2	1	2
Landorus-I	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Landorus-T	N/A	UR	4	UR	UR
Lugia	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Palkia	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Porygon2	N/A	3	4	4	UR
Rayquaza	N/A	4	4	4	4
Regieleki	N/A	2	3	3	3
Rillaboom	N/A	4	4	2	4
Talonflame	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Tapu Fini	N/A	4	4	UR	4
Tapu Koko	N/A	4	4	4	UR
Tapu Lele	N/A	4	4	UR	UR
Tornadus	N/A	3	3	4	4
Urshifu (Dark)	N/A	UR	UR	UR	4
Urshifu (Water)	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Victini	N/A	4	4	4	4
Volcarona	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Xerneas	N/A	3	3	3	3
Yveltal	N/A	1	2	1	1
Zygarde	N/A	UR	UR	UR	UR
Old mons
Dusk Mane	1	3	3	3	3
Lunala	1	4	4	4	UR
Magearna	1	1	1	1	1
Zacian-Crowned	1	1	2	1	1
Blastoise	2	3	3	4	4
Incineroar	2	2	3	3	2
Indeedee-F	2	2	3	3	2
Marshadow	2	3	4	4	3
Mew	2	4	3	3	4
Mewtwo	2	4	4	4	4
Reshiram	2	3	3	3	3
Solgaleo	2	3	4	4	UR
Zekrom	2	4	4	UR	UR
Charizard	3	UR	4	4	UR
Eternatus	3	4	4	4	4
Gyarados	3	UR	UR	UR	UR
Jirachi	3	UR	4	4	UR
Kyurem-White	3	UR	UR	UR	4
Milotic	3	UR	UR	UR	UR
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings	3	UR	UR	UR	UR
Rotom-H	3	UR	UR	UR	UR
Torkoal	3	4	4	4	UR
Dusclops	4	UR	UR	UR	UR
Ditto	4	4	4	4	4
Dracovish	4	4	UR	UR	UR
Excadrill	4	UR	UR	UR	UR
Gastrodon	4	UR	UR	UR	UR
Gothitelle	4	4	4	4	4
Grimmsnarl	4	4	UR	4	4
Hitmontop	4	3	4	UR	4
Rhyperior	4	UR	UR	UR	UR
Tyranitar	4	UR	UR	UR	UR
Venusaur	4	2	4	3	3
Whimsicott	4	3	3	3	4
Zamazenta	4	UR	UR	UR	UR

 

[DaWoblefet]

I've put together Doubles Ubers speed tiers in preparation for the upcoming money tournament. Like all Speed tiers, you can use these as a quick way to gauge relative Speeds when teambuilding to keep certain threats in mind. By investing only just enough EVs to outspeed the threats you need, you can invest more in bulk and offense.

 

[choicebadkyurem]

Here are 40 ways to counter Callyrex Shadow https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h45Mvq_TU9MwmsThBYILANkRX2428_G5qatu3tS-V6Y/edit?usp=sharing

 

[choicebadkyurem]

After Posting 40 ways to Counter Callrex Shadow it got me thinking so i'm going to start posting 30-40 maybe 50 ways to counter annoyances in the metagame with no schedule at all they will be here on this thread so look forward to it next up is Magearna.

 

[zee]

was gonna wait until after the tour ended but I think the VR is in need of some updating, so here are some noms

Rises

-> Tier 1

ho-oh

The bird is easily the best Dynamax option in the tier. It blows up defenseless Zacian and Magearna, and most importantly has incredibly spammable Max Airstream, allowing for it and a partner to take control of games quickly in a format where speed kills above all else. It's so bulky that it doesn't even need investment to tank multiple attacks, and its typing combination gives it resistance/immunity to all of steel/fairy/ground/grass, which are about half of the common attacking types being thrown around at this moment. It also has a free slot for its last, most people are using Tailwind, but it could also opt for something like Earthquake for boosting SpDef or even Recover. Looking at the replays from DaWoblefet's tour, there are so many games that Ho-oh dominates that I don't think anyone should disagree with this.

-> Tier 2

groudon

I understand that in a format with options such as Kyogre, Yveltal, and Rillaboom in high usage players might be slightly apprehensive when looking into Groudon at first, but I think that this can easily backfire on unprepared players in the builder. Strong Precipice Blades + Airstream support from one of the two birds is one of the fastest ways to lock up a pin, as the opponent is really forced to pull the trigger right then and there or the board will be wiped in a matter of 3 turns. But I think what makes Groudon truly great is what it enables. Venusaur demands an absurd amount of respect in a tier where there are far more pressing things to respect first in your building, and being able to outspeed the likes of Ghost Rider and crew and immobilze them is honestly insane. Vinelash also is quite good and makes for another good way to lock up pins with either Groudon/Calyrex-S' spread moves or fast attacks from the likes of Zacian or even Regieleki. And of course, putting stop to a Kyogre sweep is very, very important. Unless you run something like bulky assault vest or passho berry you're probably only gonna get to do it once, but games are paced so quickly that one weather override might be all you need.

-> Tier 2

venusaur

I alluded to this in my Groudon reasoning but I think that Venusaur is one of the most dominant non ubers right now. The distinction of non uber is really nothing but a name, but I think new players getting into the tier and who aren't familiar with something like VGC 2019 formats might seriously overlook it. Sleep Powder Three Attacks @ Sash provides a very useful toolkit, putting out both offensive and supportive pressure with its coverage combo and the pressure to render multiple Pokemon useless for a few turns. Sash is super safe here due to a current lack of Hazards seen in gameplay, meaning in sun it will almost always get a Sleep Powder off successfully bar hitting into an immunity. The Gmax option gives Venusaur a second dimension of potency, with Vine Lash being an incredible stab option and Max Ooze and Quake boosting its partners stats, potentially allowing for calcs to be turned over in the Venusaur players favor.

-> Tier 3

grimmsnarl

Speed kills, but so does doing damage. So wouldn't it be great if there was a Pokemon who A) slowed the opponent's team down and B) reduced the damage the opponent is doing, and practically guarantee doing it? Honestly the only reason I'm not nomming Grimm for tier 2 is because there are a few games I play where it has do-nothing syndrome for a few turns, but in some other games getting screens up for 6 useful turns where my opponent has none makes all the difference. There's also some more fringe things you can do with it like Taunt or Trick Lagging Tail that I think are perfectly viable and I'd like to see more of in the tournament going forward.

-> Tier 3

rillaboom

Rilla has a few things going for it in the toolkit that I think at least deserve it getting a shift one tier up. Grassy Glide renders Spout Kyogre useless, especially since there's a lot less competition for terrains here outside of max moves and the occasional fini usage. Fake Out is always nice, at the very least it can force a dynamax out of something that the opponent wasn't planning on if they're desperate. Has a good speed tier and some nice other options like Taunt / Knock Off / Wood Hammer.

edit: pizza time

-> Tier 3

zamazenta-c

Gonna shoutout big man Yuichi for this one. If you haven't watched his game vs Demantoid from round 1, I urge you to do so. Zama has a really good supportive toolkit in Snarl / Wide Guard / Helping Hand (Howl?) and high stats to ensure that it will stay on the field for a while. Like all support bots it has its limitations and it can fall victim to do nothing syndrome, but it's a cute innovation that I think we'll see more of as the tour progresses.

Stuff I'm keeping my eye on but not decided on yet:

Drops

-> Tier 2

magearna

Ever since I picked up this format I was really puzzled by Magearna's spot in Tier 1, I get what it does, but I think more importantly people are focusing too much on what it used to do. Now that we finally have both Dynamax and a multitude of high stat options, not too mention a land mine of ground, fire, and spread moves that it has to navigate through, Magearna has a hard time doing both of A) setting up Trick Room healthily and B) actually sweeping once TR is set. It is still something that you have to respect in your building, but that's the thing: every competent player is respecting it. I can see this potentially rising back to Tier 1 in time, but it will take a really good team to push it to that level imo, and that team does not exist right now.

-> Tier 4

These just haven't done anything. I've watched a significant chunk of the tournament replays and haven't seen one where any of these guys do much of anything. They should really drop.

Metas been insanely fun, and I hope there's some sort of reason for people to keep playing this tier after the tournament ends.

 

[choicebadkyurem]

Um sorry for the huge delay Christmas was crazy as hell so I didn't get anything done so 30 ways to counter mag is still in progress but it will be up before the end of next week or my head can be on a plate ok I will make it soon again I am sorry I want to make this a 2-week thing then 1 and half then finally 1 I will also probably be making docs for how to counter certain strats eventually so yeah.

 

[choicebadkyurem]

So Magerana is weird compared to Cally-Shadow because Cally-Shadow is a wall breaker/sweeper depending on the situation which share most checks/counters but Magerana can be a Defensive/Offensive TR setter, TR Sweeper, or General/Tailwind wall breaker with Dynamax so I have different categories for all of them there are 4 repeats because im to lazy to rewrite them just to join them sorry. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BLCbjL8mFgK2OJxBBT7KLsBkJuycWPsxdXwdNzaB8ZU/edit?usp=sharing

 

[freegiveaways]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BLCbjL8mFgK2OJxBBT7KLsBkJuycWPsxdXwdNzaB8ZU/edit?usp=sharing

Fire fang hits less than behemoth blade:

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 265-313 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 232-274 (63.9 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And close combat hits nearly the same anyway:

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 213-251 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Don't use fire fang zacian-C unless you give sun suport...and even so is a very weak move.

Same with fire punch marshadow and fire fang zamazenta, don't use.

 

[choicebadkyurem]

Yeah I kinda over looked that and overall its just mons that have coverage to hit the mon so fire punch marshadow is fine how ever you should allways spectral thief them tbh also im going to start clacing and stuff around now to.

 

[Yuichi]

since my run in dubers money tour is pretty much over i figured id just share some of my teams that i used in the tour so uh enjoy i guess?

W1 VS Demantoid:
G1:
G2:
===================================================================================================================

Description

Demantoid was honestly a wildcard so I wanted to go with something more reliable, which is why this team leans more towards fatstuffs and focuses on damage control instead of the traditional 5 turn gg Dubers teams so as to ensure I have enough counterplay against whatever Demantoid was bringing. Prior to this I think I was playing around with Zama in GS Cup and had some success with it in room tours, so I thought hey why not bring it to Dubers? I figured something like Ho-oh and Zygarde would be good recipients of coaching and the utility Zama provides with Snarl, especially since Zyg is so fat at +1/+1 till the point where nothing OHKO's it bar Calyrex-Ice (?). This team worked so well G1 that i brought it again G2, where it performed splendidly once again, netting me a W against the misher. Im gonna be honest here, most of the spreads here are slider spreads besides like Zamazenta which outspeeds base 100s + max HP and Atk dump. Zygarde originally had Thousand Waves to trap stuff like Incin on the switch but after these two games I realised Thousand Arrows was still more valuable compared to trapping so I switched to Tarrows instead.

W3 VS Papiloco:
G1:
G2:
===================================================================================================================

Description

Against Papiloco I didn't really know what to bring so I just brought a solid semiroom team G1 and the W1 teams in G2. Not much to comment on the matches other than Papiloco getting every single double tect in G1 which was slightly annoying but i managed to push through so alls G. I figured sub Kyogre would be amazing since Zama and Incin are both able to get ogre a lot of free turns to get sub up, increasing its lonvegity and helping it do more damage throughout the course of the game instead of getting 70% shaved off 1 Turn later by a max move. Rock Slide DMN was originally something i brought up with qsns while we were discussing the format which i realised fits really well in this team since DMN was really good Ho-oh bait and Max Rock also sets it do some damage to Yveltal/Incineroar + break sashes which was cool. Sash Sub Encore Calyrex might be a bit counterintuitive here but I wanted to be able to force stuff to max with Zamazenta and still not have to worry about the tie with opposing Caly-s. Against other stuff however that are easily forced out by Caly-S I can get a free sub up and encore into a Protect and potentially cripple one of their opposing mons, which is amazing.

W4 VS n10siT:
G1:
G2:
G3:
===================================================================================================================

Description

Looking through some of n10siT's replay for the tour I only saw the toise double bird team and the other wack Dracovish fullroom team which I wasn't too worried about, so i figured that i could just recycle the 2 teams from previous weeks and should probably do fine if i play more conservatively. In G2 i played rather carelessly around Fini and Dracovish which gave him the W needed to proceed on to G3, where i once again brought the G1 team that had a slightly better TR matchup. I managed to get sub up on Kyogre which allowed it to do a load of work against n10siT's team since his only 2 water resists arent particularly bulky and he doesn't have any other form of damage control. Kyogre proved vital in the matchup against his Fini and Dracovish, which helped pave the way for a Caly-S Astral Barrage endgame once Incin was chipped sufficiently and Trick room was over.

Top 8 VS Dawoblefet:
G1:
G2:
G3:
===================================================================================================================

Description (G1)

This was basically a goodstuffs team with Xern thrown in to help with the Yveltal matchup. Scarf Fini was something i was playing around with on the ladder to help with Grimmsnarl shenanigans and also opposing Zacian/Caly-S as i realised Fini is able to outspeed both of them with 252+ Spe and scarf. Fini had trick to cripple stuff like Grimmsnarl as well as Defog to get rid of Rocks and Screens for Ho-oh and gang and help faciliate a Ho-oh sweep. Icy Wind proved vital in giving me an early game advantage for Ho-oh to do big damage against Dawoblefet's team, which allowed my to set up for a Xerneas Endgame. I think what won me this round was the Trick Room with Caly-S that Dawoblefet didnt see coming, helping me underspeed both Kyogre and Yveltal and allowing me to click Geomancy with Xerneas, winning me the game.

Description (G2)

Game 2 felt like a good matchup for me in preview as i had plenty of Xerneas matchup on my team and Trick Room was a potential wincon for me once the game progressed further, which was the reason for preserving DMN. This G2 team has been used multiple times so i was rather comfortable with it and managed to get into a pretty good position near the endgame. However I got a low roll on Ho-oh both times with Astral Barrage which resulted in Ho-oh living and OHKOing my Caly-S in return, thus forcing me to play an unfortunate DMN Zamazenta endgame. I didnt Trick Room with DMN as i was afraid of Incineroar's Parting Shot under Trick Room. This was a fatal mistake which cost me the game when Dawoblefet revealed that he had Disable Caly-S for Zamazenta's Wide Guard, which honestly sealed the game for me.

Description (G3)

This team was a bit spicier with mixed LO Ray compared to my previous teams i brought to the game. LO way excelled at dismantling teams that were over reliant on Kyogre/Ho-oh to do damage. T1 i went straight for the max as there was nothing that could dampen Rayquaza's outout on the field bar Zacian OHKOing it from the get go. Maxing was honestly one of the riskiest plays i couldve done in that scenario but it proved to be the right move as Dawoblefet attempted to OHKO Incineroar with Zacian instead, giving me a free Airstream and helped tremendously with early game positioning. Earth Power was a nice touch to hit stuff like Zacian/DMN/Incineroar, which also proved useful in helping dispose of Dawoblefet's DMN 3 turns in. Zamazenta + Incineroar provided enough damage control to put the game in a stalemate midgame, however in order to win i had to get up Trick Room with either Caly-Ice or Magearna, which i only managed to do towards the end after losing the coinflip on the turn Ho-oh Flare Blitz'd into Calyrex. Yawn Blastoise was the most annoying thing on the field for which my only true sleep answers were sub Kyogre and Lum Berry Calyrex, further increasing the difficulty of getting Trick Room up. Once Trick Room was up, i lost the coinflip for the turn where i clicked Lariat into the Kyogre slot instead of the Blastoise slot, once again making it even harder for me to win the game. The final nail in the coffin was the >1 turn sleep on Magearna which prevented me from getting Trick Room up again. Overall this game had many coinflips towards the endgame; most of which i lost costing me my 2 months of Battle Pass and Black Sword for Keqing. In hindsight i probably played the endgame a bit too conservatively and missed out on potential openings to hard Magearna and get Trick Room up.

Teams

Demantoid G1

KFP (Ho-Oh) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 224 Def / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Tailwind
- Recover

Fubuzilla (Groudon) @ Figy Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 HP / 216 Atk / 252 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Heat Crash
- Rock Tomb
- Protect

HAACHAMACHAMA (Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Wide Guard
- Snarl
- Coaching

reverse cocogoat (Calyrex-Shadow) @ Focus Sash
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Trick Room
- Imprison
- Protect

akai haato (Regieleki) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Volt Switch
- Electroweb

dead beats (Zygarde) @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 4 HP / 240 Atk / 4 Def / 200 SpD / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Protect

Papiloco G1

HAACHAMAA (Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Wide Guard
- Snarl
- Coaching

GROUND POUND (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Rock Slide
- Trick Room
- Protect

gura (Kyogre) @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SpA / 4 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Substitute
- Protect

KFP (Ho-Oh) @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Tailwind
- Recover

cawywex-shadowow (Calyrex-Shadow) @ Focus Sash
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Substitute
- Encore
- Protect

rawr XD (Incineroar) @ Passho Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 76 Def / 124 SpD / 52 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- Fake Out
- Parting Shot

Dawoblefet G1

gura (Tapu Fini) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nature's Madness
- Icy Wind
- Defog
- Trick

HAACHAMA CHAMA (Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Wide Guard
- Snarl
- Coaching

KFP (Ho-Oh) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Tailwind
- Recover

Calyrex-ice (Calyrex-Shadow) @ Focus Sash
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Trick Room
- Imprison
- Protect

minty (Zygarde) @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 240 Atk / 4 Def / 200 SpD / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Protect

odeer (Xerneas) @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Geomancy
- Protect

Dawoblefet G3

angel gorilla (Magearna) @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flash Cannon
- Trick Room
- Protect

neigh (Calyrex-Ice) @ Lum Berry
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Glacial Lance
- High Horsepower
- Trick Room
- Protect

henry (Kyogre) @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SpA / 4 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Substitute
- Protect

frank (Rayquaza) @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Stone Edge
- Earth Power
- Protect

HAACHAMA CHAMA (Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Wide Guard
- Snarl
- Helping Hand

frank 2 (Incineroar) @ Passho Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 76 Def / 124 SpD / 52 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- Fake Out
- Parting Shot

and teams that i didnt get to use in the tour ig

Copycat Trick Room

onion cat maid (Palkia) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Flamethrower
- Thunder

AKAI HAATO DESU (Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Wide Guard
- Snarl
- Coaching

alecks (Groudon) @ Figy Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Heat Crash
- Rock Slide
- Protect

alex (Venusaur-Gmax) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Earth Power

FBKING (Riolu) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Coaching
- Copycat
- Follow Me
- Protect

cocogoat (Calyrex-Ice) @ Lum Berry
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Glacial Lance
- High Horsepower
- Trick Room
- Protect

Double bird goodstuffs

dead beats (Yveltal) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Snarl
- Foul Play
- Oblivion Wing

Mori Calliope (Calyrex-Shadow) @ Focus Sash
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Trick Room
- Imprison
- Protect

comet (Kyogre) @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SpA / 4 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Substitute
- Protect

HAACHAMA CHAMA (Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Wide Guard
- Snarl
- Helping Hand

KFP (Ho-Oh) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Tailwind
- Recover

Ahoy! (Amoonguss) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 7 Spe
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Clear Smog
- Protect

 

[Hrishioo7]

In here for now i am ok with the tiers of all other mons except the goated zamazenta as it is p underrated.


Without any waste of time i will come to my point

so the mon i want to be rated is ----->

so this mon ohkos almost all the top tiers when in gmax form with the only threats being rillaboom and regieleki.

this mon, if u are successful at keeping up rain, Believe me does wonders + gets rocks up which is impressive and at least deserves to be rated.

probably it deserves UR---->tier 3/4 (I strongly believe it to be in tier 3).

here are some interesting calcs

Hide

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow in Rain: 329-387 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Max Rockfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 351-413 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO base head smash

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw-Gmax G-Max Stonesurge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned in Rain: 368-434 (113.2 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw-Gmax Max Rockfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Yveltal: 671-790 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (anyway dies after rocks)

you all know what happens of hooh lol

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw-Gmax Max Rockfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Ice: 452-533 (112.1 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

no question about what happens of incin

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw-Gmax Max Rockfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 374-442 (124.2 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw-Gmax Max Rockfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 348-411 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

the same story applies for groudon as for venusaur there has to be a weather war for making drednaw win anyway this seems useful ----
252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dynamax Drednaw-Gmax: 522-614 (81.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Drednaw-Gmax: 801-951 (124.7 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO so be careful!

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw-Gmax Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned in Rain: 242-286 (74.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw-Gmax Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 351-413 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO just beware of the recoil

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw-Gmax Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Incineroar in Rain: 307-367 (77.9 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw-Gmax G-Max Stonesurge vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain: 302-356 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO THE FEELING AFTER READING THIS IS JUST SO GOOD!

So if u r successful in keeping rain up u can fish 3 koes in those 3 dynamax turns!

the question about a mon coming in and maxing against u and going for max steelspike u can go max knuckle to apply pressure.

Here's a replay to convince you all that drednaw is great if used good

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesubers-1269659698

I hope i have cleared my point well and btw i am posting a post for the first time in any VR thread so please consider me if i have done some mistakes

 

[choicebadkyurem]

I'm here to talk about Raichu the ugly duckling evolution of Game Freaks favorite stupid electric rodent Pikachu. So I have been observing the curent Dubers Meta and noticed that some of the top things are T wave Groudon and Blastoise so I thought hey what if I fused them so now we have Raichu. And this thing is mean it has so many support moves as well as nice bulk with 88 Spedf it lives an Astral Barage and with 0 Def it lives a B blade. The moves being Fake Out, Follow Me, Dual Screens, Helping Hand, Fast Encore, Nuzzle, Volt Switch, Yawn, Wish, Electro Web, Safe Guard, High Speed Speed Swap, Sweet Kiss, Detect, Knock Off, and to less of and extent Toxic so feel free to mix and match. I have some premade sets The Set's. I will explain what they do Av: Alows you to live Kyogre Water Spout Out Speed it and smack it back with Grass Knot or para with Nuzzle so you don't have to switch out and Grass Knot also bops Don Sash: Alows you to tank any hit and any Defense or Spef is pointless so just use Spa to Bop Kyogre harder Sac Sash: Simple get hit endevor and espeed to kill you barely under speed Kyogre to endovear it. Screens:You set up dual screens. Sitrus: Just Defensely invested sash. Anti-Yavel: Outspeed Yaveltal and Nuzzle it. Anti Don: 2 Shot Don with Grass Knot and you live 2 P blades with Sash. Screens Shuca: Lets you set up screens in Dons face. It also gets lightning rod which is really helpful as and ability. I recommend to run Raichu with Kyogre a Flying Type and a Groudon Check overall neesh but good at its neesh. I think it should t5.