Doubles Doubles Viability Rankings

#26
Shedinja deserves to be ranked cuz it completely walls all S and A+ ranked Pokémon but Tapu Koko after you use Soak on it. Tapu Fini with a Choice Scarf is great and offers status immunity to Shedinja as well and adding a Lightningrod user would make Shedinja weak only to grass type moves, Leech Seed and Sandstorm which is great. And Choice Scarf Tapu Fini with Soak is good they used it in VGC17 no fake news!!

This strategy works well in BSD since the opponent can bring 4 Pokémon only. The opponent must bring Pokémon that can both touch a Shedinja with a Bug/Ghost typing and a Shedinja with a Water typing (which you could manipulate by switching Shedinja). U should utilize Final Gambit and Explosion to their fullest potential so that the opponent has fewer and fewer option to touch Shedinja. Or you use Charizard Y to deal with Leech Seed users and remove sandstorm.

SR is absent in the Doubles meta too, so thats one less concern compared to singles formats.
 
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#27
One word: Ninetales-A. Hail goes through wonderguard and so do Will-o-wisp/Toxin/Sand and a bunch of other effects. I still think that Shedinja is unviable, especially if your entire teamcomp falls apart when the enemy has any kind of indirect damage. Also, Tapu Koko is on almost any team nowadays.

Edit: Also, what do you guys think about Talonflame? Priority Supersonic Skystrike is pretty handy imo and so is priority Tailwind. You can also play mindgames with the enemy Tapu (Psychic Terrain guy), just Flare Blitz smth. They are pretty sure to switch it in first round if you lead with TF.
 
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#28
Talonflame has a very nice niche but the 126 Spe + the actual lack of offensive power outside of Supersonic Skystrike is pretty ehhhh. Specially given that all the threats pretty much either survives and revenges Talon or straight up doesn't care about it. There are better Tailwind users out there
 
#29
Probably true, I just really enjoyed the Talonflame & Chomper duo on the OR/AS Battlespot.

Edit: Any suggestions for a 'mon to counteract a weakness to Ice? It's not the Ice 'mons themselves that are giving me troubles, more like water types with the omnipresent Icebeam.
 
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#30
One word: Ninetales-A. Hail goes through wonderguard and so do Will-o-wisp/Toxin/Sand and a bunch of other effects. I still think that Shedinja is unviable, especially if your entire teamcomp falls apart when the enemy has any kind of indirect damage. Also, Tapu Koko is on almost any team nowadays.

Edit: Also, what do you guys think about Talonflame? Priority Supersonic Skystrike is pretty handy imo and so is priority Tailwind. You can also play mindgames with the enemy Tapu (Psychic Terrain guy), just Flare Blitz smth. They are pretty sure to switch it in first round if you lead with TF.
You say the exact same things as I do, only without mentioning the ways to stop these threats from being a threat. You mentioned poison/burn status as a major issue but as I said before, Shedinja, if used at all, should be paired with Tapu Fini. And once again, hail/sandstorm damage is a big issue but hail for certain isnt as common and thats why you could run Charizard Y or even safety goggles. I also mentioned lightningrod support to beat Tapu Koko.
I wonder if anyone has to say something useful about this? Like, something else then Shedinja=100%gimmick? You can't ignore the fact soaking Shedinja will destroy certain teambuilds (and yes, has worse matchups vs others, but i wonder if anyone tried this for themselves).
 

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#31
#202 - Shedinja
Estimated usage: 0.176%

This alone should be reason enough to prove it's a gimmick. If it was actually viable, people would be using it.

Your arguments for why Shedinja can work all rely on HUGE team support, such as Tapu Fini being mandatory, assuming the Shedinja is already Water-type in order to wall the highly ranked Pokemon, a Lightning Rod user, a way to control weather, and something to beat Grass mons. This shows that while the Shedinja strategy may very well be "viable" in some way if the team itself is built and piloted well, but Shedinja alone is completely unviable as it cannot be used on any other team. This is the very definition of a gimmick.

Your whole post is also completely based on theory and hypotheticals. Have you achieved a high ladder rank yourself by using Shedinja? Do you have replays of it being pulled off against high-ranked opponents? Have you found a highly-ranked team by someone else who has done it? I can almost guarantee that the answer to all of these is "no" so I'm going to ask that this Shedinja conversation ends now before the thread gets derailed.
 
#33
I believe Bronzong should be equal to Porygon-Z, if not higher. Z-Move cost isn't as bad when Megas are back again. Trick Room, Hypnosis, and Skill Swap are very handy with both Terrains and Weathers running around, and Gravity makes Tectonic Rages deadly (can't use Psychicium, granted).
 
#34
Any mention of either form of Tornadus? They're pretty decent with Priority Tailwind, Regenerator, high speeds etc.
Tornadus-Incarnate is a super valuable support, specially for rain teams as it allows Tailwind and manual rain while also having offensive power in the form of Hurricane. It still suffers from 4 slot restrictions as the thing wants to have Taunt, Heat Wave, Hurricane, Tailwind and Rain Dance on the few teams it is featured, and it only sees real use in Rain teams, whereas in others it gets outclassed by Pokemon like Whimsicott who offer an overall better support, or Mega Salamence who has better offensive presence while also being able to support. Flying types in general also don't seem to be that great in a metagame where Steel and Electric types are extremely strong, so I'd rank it in C+ / B-
Tornadus-T has no Prankster and its offensive stats can be so underwhelming for neutral hits, so its best use is often an Assault Vest set which still sucks ass. I wouldn't bother with its Therian form when Incarnate has way better utility.

I believe Bronzong should be equal to Porygon-Z, if not higher. Z-Move cost isn't as bad when Megas are back again. Trick Room, Hypnosis, and Skill Swap are very handy with both Terrains and Weathers running around, and Gravity makes Tectonic Rages deadly (can't use Psychicium, granted).
The issue with Bronzong is while it offers great support, the metagame isn't kind with him as there are no heavy hitters that can truly protect Bronzong while it sets up like in 2016. Although Porygon-Z isn't any better so I agree with that placing.
 
#35
Tornadus-Incarnate is a super valuable support, specially for rain teams as it allows Tailwind and manual rain while also having offensive power in the form of Hurricane. It still suffers from 4 slot restrictions as the thing wants to have Taunt, Heat Wave, Hurricane, Tailwind and Rain Dance on the few teams it is featured, and it only sees real use in Rain teams, whereas in others it gets outclassed by Pokemon like Whimsicott who offer an overall better support, or Mega Salamence who has better offensive presence while also being able to support. Flying types in general also don't seem to be that great in a metagame where Steel and Electric types are extremely strong, so I'd rank it in C+ / B-
Tornadus-T has no Prankster and its offensive stats can be so underwhelming for neutral hits, so its best use is often an Assault Vest set which still sucks ass. I wouldn't bother with its Therian form when Incarnate has way better utility.


The issue with Bronzong is while it offers great support, the metagame isn't kind with him as there are no heavy hitters that can truly protect Bronzong while it sets up like in 2016. Although Porygon-Z isn't any better so I agree with that placing.
I believe that Tornadus-T is an excellent edition to Rain teams that need a fast Rain Dance setter and it's Z-Hurricane can OHKO Mega Mence as well chunk fat threats to Rain teams such as Ferrothorn. Regenerator is alright as an ability for him but it's not like it's super useful for how he could play for such a team. I go Protect, Rain Dance, Hurricane, and Focus Blast for him with basic bitch spread of 252 Sp Atk and 252 Speed. Now with all of that said, he isn't a B ranking or anything better than that. He'd still fall under the niche category and his viability won't really improve much over time with what I have proposed. tl;dr Torn-T is ok with Z-Hurricane and can set Rain quickly during a match when you need to shift weather or drop a Mence quickly
 
#38
I have tried Blacephelon out on a TW team with Mega Mence and some other good stuff. Thing is dog shit, it requires Modest to get KOs and TW to not die to anything above it's Speed. Heat Wave does a respectable amount, even dealing around ~25-32% or so to a Tapu Fini when using a Life Orb. It has a powerful Shadow Ball as well that can pick up OHKOs on frailer Mons and 2HKOs on the less paper-like. Problem still is that he HAS to have TW set, can't face a Khan for fear of Sucker Punch, dies to anything in one hit, and is incredibly dependent on team MU, which he is less than likely to get. I don't think Blacephelon will ever be on Ranked.

Naganadel has more merit to him but after playing him in VGC18 he's just too easy to kill for me to give him praise. Like Z-Draco and his coverage with STAB Sludge Bomb and his Fire Blast are quite good, and he can even outspeed Mence to OHKO with Z-Draco and get his BEASHT BOOSHT but then the Mence either Protects, Protects, or Protects. He's ok at setting Tailwind and he does benefit from being able to be Modest on those types of teams. He also faces difficulty when he is fighting against a pair that doesn't give a shit about him, such as Heatran + Cress, Scarf Lando + Mence, literally any weather ever invented, etc.

The two new Ultra Beasts may show some kind of change in the future but for now I can say with some experience that they are mostly dog shit when it comes to BSD.
 
#39
I have tried Blacephelon out on a TW team with Mega Mence and some other good stuff. Thing is dog shit, it requires Modest to get KOs and TW to not die to anything above it's Speed. Heat Wave does a respectable amount, even dealing around ~25-32% or so to a Tapu Fini when using a Life Orb. It has a powerful Shadow Ball as well that can pick up OHKOs on frailer Mons and 2HKOs on the less paper-like. Problem still is that he HAS to have TW set, can't face a Khan for fear of Sucker Punch, dies to anything in one hit, and is incredibly dependent on team MU, which he is less than likely to get. I don't think Blacephelon will ever be on Ranked.

Naganadel has more merit to him but after playing him in VGC18 he's just too easy to kill for me to give him praise. Like Z-Draco and his coverage with STAB Sludge Bomb and his Fire Blast are quite good, and he can even outspeed Mence to OHKO with Z-Draco and get his BEASHT BOOSHT but then the Mence either Protects, Protects, or Protects. He's ok at setting Tailwind and he does benefit from being able to be Modest on those types of teams. He also faces difficulty when he is fighting against a pair that doesn't give a shit about him, such as Heatran + Cress, Scarf Lando + Mence, literally any weather ever invented, etc.

The two new Ultra Beasts may show some kind of change in the future but for now I can say with some experience that they are mostly dog shit when it comes to BSD.
For what it's worth, we have a separate thread for VGC18 viability rankings over here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vgc-2018-viability-rankings.3622041/
 
#40
I have tried Blacephelon out on a TW team with Mega Mence and some other good stuff. Thing is dog shit, it requires Modest to get KOs and TW to not die to anything above it's Speed. Heat Wave does a respectable amount, even dealing around ~25-32% or so to a Tapu Fini when using a Life Orb. It has a powerful Shadow Ball as well that can pick up OHKOs on frailer Mons and 2HKOs on the less paper-like. Problem still is that he HAS to have TW set, can't face a Khan for fear of Sucker Punch, dies to anything in one hit, and is incredibly dependent on team MU, which he is less than likely to get. I don't think Blacephelon will ever be on Ranked.

Naganadel has more merit to him but after playing him in VGC18 he's just too easy to kill for me to give him praise. Like Z-Draco and his coverage with STAB Sludge Bomb and his Fire Blast are quite good, and he can even outspeed Mence to OHKO with Z-Draco and get his BEASHT BOOSHT but then the Mence either Protects, Protects, or Protects. He's ok at setting Tailwind and he does benefit from being able to be Modest on those types of teams. He also faces difficulty when he is fighting against a pair that doesn't give a shit about him, such as Heatran + Cress, Scarf Lando + Mence, literally any weather ever invented, etc.

The two new Ultra Beasts may show some kind of change in the future but for now I can say with some experience that they are mostly dog shit when it comes to BSD.
TW? I can't figure out what that acronym means even looking over its moveset.
 
#42
Is there somewhere I can see which of these have set pages on smogon without looking through them all individually? and would the sets for OU Doubles/VGC be viable in battle spot?
 
#43
Is there somewhere I can see which of these have set pages on smogon without looking through them all individually? and would the sets for OU Doubles/VGC be viable in battle spot?
If you go to the VGC18 analysis reservation thread (Here) and check the "Completed" hide box at the bottom of the OP you can see most of the Pokemon with VGC18 writeups. I'll eventually end up adding a more complete list to the official format page, it's just a matter of finding the time for it.

EDIT: Format page updated. Check Here for a list of Pokemon with VGC18 analyses.

Almost all of the VGC18 sets are optimal for Battle Spot Doubles. There are a few exceptions like Power-Up Punch Mega Kangaskhan and Static Zapdos that aren't legal in VGC18, though. DOU analyses are fine if you lack alternatives, but there are a lot of differences in that metagame which makes certain sets/moves notably different in viability. For example, Choice Band Tyranitar is a great set in DOU, but doesn't work nearly as well in BSD and VGC18. DOU is also played at level 100 rather than level 50, so the EVs may need some manual adjustment to accomplish similar goals at the new level.
 
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#44
I'm just getting into doubles/VGC and have been building a couple of teams. It seems odd that mAltaria is no where to be seen on the VR. On paper it has a nice niche with cloud nine (pre-mega), solid bulk, spread damage with hyper voice, and support options consisting of perish song, heal bell, haze, and tailwind.

Is it just too weak to preform or just outclassed?
 
#45
I'm just getting into doubles/VGC and have been building a couple of teams. It seems odd that mAltaria is no where to be seen on the VR. On paper it has a nice niche with cloud nine (pre-mega), solid bulk, spread damage with hyper voice, and support options consisting of perish song, heal bell, haze, and tailwind.

Is it just too weak to preform or just outclassed?
I’ve been using it. I wouldn’t say that it’s outclassed perse, but it is less splashable as other mega evolutions. Though by options you listed those, are more for Singles?

As a side note, shouldn’t this be replaced by VGC 18 rankings?
 

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#46
As a side note, shouldn’t this be replaced by VGC 18 rankings?
The VGC18 VR thread exists in the VGC forum. Even though the formats are almost identical, there's enough subtleties between the formats that keeping this one around is worthwhile. We expected it to die off in favour of the VGC version though.
 

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