• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

Status
Not open for further replies.
Biggest surprises here are Quagsire who is often touted as a major threat in the UU circle, Sudowoodo with its excellent coverage. Noctowl and Pelliper quite sturdy pair of birds who can hold their own even in higher levels of play. Even Vileplume who was formerly a BL in Advance.
Click to expand...

Quagsire has never been touted as a threat as such, rather more a useful wall, although people seem to unfavourably compare, and over look him in favour of Gastradon.

Noctowl might surprise some, but its been a favourite of mine for a while now ...

Was Vileplume really BL in Advance? I used to use it in UU and don't remember anyone complaining? I think Vileplume suffers the same fate as Quagsire in that it is often unfavourably compared with Meganium, despite IMHO being far superior.

The surprises for me were Dunsparce (dreadful Togekiss wannabe) and Mightyena!?!
 
ODDish said:
Was Vileplume really BL in Advance? I used to use it in UU and don't remember anyone complaining? I think Vileplume suffers the same fate as Quagsire in that it is often unfavourably compared with Meganium, despite IMHO being far superior.
Click to expand...
As I recall it was a BL for the mid part of the Advance life when there was a lack of Cleric's. Vileplume offered that, decent support and offence in one package. However as the need died down during the peak of Advance it ended up falling into UU just before the switch over. Also I always thought it seemed like alot of people mention Quags when they talk about UU, I know its saved me numerous times myself. I'm actually dissapointed Politoed has fallen in use, but when statistically you're a mini-Milotic without Recover its to be expected.
 
It also has a number of common weaknesses, and can only really function as a Baton Passer. To be honest I agree with Forsety on this one ... Lunatone and indeed Solrock's UU glory days are well behind them.
 
This IS my very first post.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29788

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29789&page=68

Two links that discuss tier lists.


I understand that there is no longer a "NU" tier list. Any pokemon that was part of the NU is now part of the UU list. Personally, I think combining two tiers was done hastily. And I think I partially know why.

The terms "NU" and "UU". NU (Neverused) and UU (Underused) are too harsh to describe the pokemon that belong to that list. I'm sure people have argued that some UU pokemon belong in the BL. But, I think the problem is not due to the Pokemon itself but the names it belongs in discretly.

LordS+, whom I'm presuming to be a mod here in Smogon, goes over the tier list and brief description for each. I'm going to quote his descriptions for UU and NU because I have a response to his comments.


http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29788

UU - Pokémon not used often, that are relatively weak.
USED RARELY, WEAK

"USED RARELY"? Personally, I think that's harsh to say because as a result, Smogon has already had people debate that certain Pokemon in UU are far better than other UUs. Also, I have seen numerous videos in PBR and Diamond and Pearl WIFI where some UUs are used more often than others, thus have become common.

Also, when people refer as the middle point between OU and UU, I actually have begun thinking that both BLand UU are the middle points between OU and NU. What ultimately makes Pokemon competitive is partially identifying pokemon that are used the most and least. Right?

And so, instead of using the term UU and its description "Rarely used, weak", I think a much more appropriate definition is...

SU (Sometimes used)
Ocassionally used, weak

So basically SU (ocassionally used, weak) is below BL where Pokemon are ocassionally used, strong.


NU - Pokemon considered essentially unusable.
NEVER USED, VERY WEAK


"NEVER USED"? More like rarely used. It's possible that most people will never ever find in a team of Unown or Luvdisc. But that's not the point. THe point is that if SU is established, then the Pokemon that once belonged in NU would fit in a much more appropriate field where they aren't necessarily discriminated. And so, if we agreed to abandon the term NU, then what's a much more appropriate name? Below, I have a term for those pokemon and an appropriate description

RU (Rarely used)- Pokemon considered essentially unusable and rarely used.

RARELY USED, VERY WEAK.

By dropping UU for SU and NU for RU may lead people in Smogon to easily categorize the Pokemon that currently belong in the UU D/P tier list.

I'm open to discuss to the possibilities of changes in the current tier list.
 
On a non-random note.

I'm thinking before the new proposals do go through which I imagine won't be for sometime. (Hey its taken this long to get to the state UU is in as it is...) Since its been a few months since the last BL/UU move around it might be appropiate to make one last submission/revision to the BL/UU changes in contributions. I think many would appreciate still having a stable UU in some form to play whilst the new UU is tested.

So I'm just saying even with new proposals looming we should give this dead horse one last kick.

At last check...

Move down to UU
-Marowak-
Despite the power, it forfeits its item and is still slow as balls.

-Steelix-
Not terribly threatening offensively and it'd help balance out the physical sweeper bias within UU.

-Leafeon-
Not believed to be near as gamebreaking in UU as once thought...

-Shedinja-
Again helps some of the defensive fragility issues in UU without becoming too unstoppable.


Ban to BL
-Scyther-
Too fast, too strong and near unkillable due to its Baton Passing/U-Turn tendencies even with Stealth Rocks considered. Counters can be summed up as only Torkoal.
 
If you are banning Scyther to BL you'll also have to ban Pinsir. Pinsir outclasses Scyther in terms of damage with a less SR and better coverage.

Leafeon for UU, I would love it, maybe it's time to restart testing it?
 
I don't have a problem with most of the suggested movedowns, although I'm not sure whether Marowak was tested enought to be certain.

As for the move up, IMHO there are more pressing things to consider moving up than Scyther ... Pinsir would be top of my list, and even then there would be one or two things above Scyther .... (Clefable, Glaceon, perhaps even Poliwrath)
 
-Shedinja-
Again helps some of the defensive fragility issues in UU without becoming too unstoppable.
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly with this. You can't say it is overcentralizing as there are so many ways of dealing with it that it is entirely your own fault if it walls your whole team.

Also capable of shutting down the Water + Ice + Grass/Electric combo that many Swift Swim/Rain Dance sweepers use as long as there is no Stealth Rock down, which is a good thing if you ask me.

As for the move up, IMHO there are more pressing things to consider moving up than Scyther ... Pinsir would be top of my list, and even then there would be one or two things above Scyther .... (Clefable, Glaceon, perhaps even Poliwrath)
Click to expand...

I mostly agree with this, although IMO Poliwrath is a necessary defensive Pokemon in UU with its unique typing, in a similar way to Claydol. I've never seen it as particularly threatening offensively due to low speed and mediocre attack, meaning a Belly Drum sweep is very difficult to pull off.
 
what about shifting walrein up? i have never seen a pinsirwhen i fought in UU so i have no idea, as for shedinja i'm not convinced, from what i seen getting counters into a team is easy enough but whether people run them is another matter

and put leafeon in UU and my BL team is not 6 BL anymore :(
 
I mostly agree with this, although IMO Poliwrath is a necessary defensive Pokemon in UU with its unique typing, in a similar way to Claydol. I've never seen it as particularly threatening offensively due to low speed and mediocre attack, meaning a Belly Drum sweep is very difficult to pull off.
Click to expand...

Oh I wasn't suggesting that it be moved up as such ... I was simply listing things that I would move up over Scyther. The only ones that I really think should be moved up are Pinsir, Glaceon (there too few decent special walls) and Clefable, although in the case of the latter it's a purely biased suggestion based on my hatered of the thing. I don't actually expect to see it moved.
 
I'm fine with all the move downs, but I think moving up Clefable and Pinsir is more important than Scyther. Pinsir absolutely wreaks havoc on anything in UU, and Clefable is just too strong all around.
 
@Foresty: I'd add Regigigas to the "Move Down to UU" list, because everyone who's tested it in this thread has said that it's really not that good in UU, and doesn't deserve BL status. Several pages back on the old list for movedowns, it had very weak opposition to movedown, so I'd allow it into UU.
 
I'd really think about Regigigas before we let it into UU... It's got 110/110/110 defenses, which surpasses most of UU's defensive pokes, if it gets some sort of defensive boost or screen support, it could be very hard to break its subs and very dangerous if allowed 5 turns. There are also very few phasers in UU.
 
Just throwing in my say now.

But Clefable isn't something I can say I agree with a banning since personally I always seem to setup on the thing. I'd also like to point out now at least 2 of the to be lowered traditionally caused problems for Cleffy.

Bologo said:
@Foresty: I'd add Regigigas to the "Move Down to UU" list,
Click to expand...
Theres one small problem with that. If the recent Platinum game is to be believed, Regigigas will be obtaining Levitate as a new ability. I'm sorta reluctant to go for the move down when it'll probably be off to Ubers in another few months. Not to mention I'm still skeptical because of its massive support potential, I've seen some pretty unbreakable stall play involving it and one of (I think) Obi's strategies from a long while ago.

Though I really want to hear everyone else on this.

Anyway as it is now of what is definitely being submitted.

Move down to UU
-Marowak
-Steelix
-Leafeon
-Shedinja
-Drapion-
Looking back this was the other big one who very few people had no problems with joining UU equalling Steelix. Low base power on attack and all its moves was agreed to hurt it and defensive version played much like Poliwrath in that respect.

Ban to BL
-Scyther
-Pinsir-
Practically unified opinion now that it is out of here.

I'm going to leave this one more day to let people comment on the raised issues before I submit it over in contributions.

There are also very few phasers in UU.
Click to expand...
One thing to consider is that as of now theres 3 phazers soon to join UU. However I have the same reservations concerning the defenses.
 
Completely forgot about Steelix and Drapion, although like you say I can't really see there being too many objections for either ...

If moved down Drapion might actually find a niche as a counter for Super-Luck Absol.

Agreeing with those suggesting holding off with Regigigas though ...
 
From what I remember of my Drapion testing he was as uninspiring in UU as OU, still it might actually find something useful to do in countering the ultra annoying Super-Luck Absol.
Click to expand...

I actually think Drapion would be a welcome and interesting addition to UU. It can fill any number of roles from defensive or utility Pokemon to revenge killer or even sweeper under the right circumstances, without being any more difficult to handle than any other top tier threat in UU right now.

On another note, what happened with the testing of Jynx? I know that Forsety is heavily biased against its inclusion and I can understand the threat it poses in a tier lacking special walls, but there is also the fact that it cannot take ANY physical hit whatsoever, dies a horrible death to priority moves and is incredibly easy to revenge kill, unlike Glaceon/Ninetales. 95 base speed is good, but there are many faster threats out there, some of which can carry Pursuit.

I have always been in favour of giving borderline cases a chance whenever possible, so I think she is worth another test.

Theres one small problem with that. If the recent Platinum game is to be believed, Regigigas will be obtaining Levitate as a new ability. I'm sorta reluctant to go for the move down when it'll probably be off to Ubers in another few months.
Click to expand...

I too have a few reservations about Regigigas, but it has got nothing to do with all this talk about Levitate. As far as I've heard, this new game will bring an entirely different form of Regigigas altogether, in which case they should be treated as two separate cases, just like Deoxys-S. If you are correct and Regigigas ends up gaining Levitate as a second ability then yes it will soon be off to Ubers, but I do not see why you'd assume that to be the case at this point.
 
I actually think Drapion would be a welcome and interesting addition to UU. It can fill any number of roles from defensive or utility Pokemon to revenge killer or even sweeper under the right circumstances, without being any more difficult to handle than any other top tier threat in UU right now.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I was being a little unfair on it ... I just remember feeling incredible underwhelmed by its performance during my play testing, although to be fair I probably wasn't giving it the attention it deserved as I was testing Leafeon at the same time, and I've always been far more interested in getting him moved down.

On another note, what happened with the testing of Jynx? I know that Forsety is heavily biased against its inclusion and I can understand the threat it poses in a tier lacking special walls, but there is also the fact that it cannot take ANY physical hit whatsoever, dies a horrible death to priority moves and is incredibly easy to revenge kill, unlike Glaceon/Ninetales. 95 base speed is good, but there are many faster threats out there, some of which can carry Pursuit.
Click to expand...

I don't know if she was tested extensively ... I did a tiny amount of testing, but to be perfectly honest she really didn't suit my style of play, and subsequently I didn't really come up with anything conclusive as I could never keep her alive long enough to do anything significant.

I'm not sure how others faired with her though ...
 
Would it be possible for someone to update the front page with the progress this thread has made? 2000 posts is a lot of reading, lol. Specifically, I think it should be highlighted what are the purposes of UU and BL. A tenative list of the pokemon is discussion would be neat too.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top