Why? Do you really think those Pokemon are too much for UU as it stands now? Clamperl is already an allowed Pokemon in UU but only works well in Trick Room and can be dealt with to some extent by Lanturn and Mantine depending on the Hidden Power. I've barely seen it in UU as it is, never mind dominating there. As far as Seadra and Shelgon are concerned I'm afraid you'll have to enlighten me as to how they are particularly threatening.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
- Start date
- Status
Why? Do you really think those Pokemon are too much for UU as it stands now? Clamperl is already an allowed Pokemon in UU but only works well in Trick Room and can be dealt with to some extent by Lanturn and Mantine depending on the Hidden Power. I've barely seen it in UU as it is, never mind dominating there. As far as Seadra and Shelgon are concerned I'm afraid you'll have to enlighten me as to how they are particularly threatening.
Well, remember that only the weaker current UUs won't make it into the new UU, and then a lot of the weaker current UUs will make it into the 'Banned from NU' tier, so NU will still be fairly weak. But yeah, it'll be more of a place for Dusclops, Rhydon, Magneton, etc. to go.
Clampearl may have a strategy page, but he hasn't been placed anywhere on the tier list (although, as you said, he is allowed in UU).
Yeah, I can't see Alakazam working in the "new" UU (I agree, the names would likely need to be changed). He is powerful enough to work in OU/BL no problem, but we'll see.
And yes, I don't expect the new UU tier to grow by a huge number. True, with the addition of (some) the BL Pokes and NFEs, it would become much larger. But then many of the bottom range UU (and maybe some of the middle range, too) would be pushed down into the new UU/NU faux tier.
One thing I've always kind of thought about is about Shelgon. Okay, so usually the distinct NFEs are put into tiers (such as Vigoroth). Shelgon is certainly quite different from Salamence, and he doesn't have bad stats at all. However, he was never (to my knowledge) tried for UU or anything. Seemed a bit odd to me, but it doesn't really matter now, I guess.
I think our perception of these new tiers is somewhat conflicted. I personally think the new UU will be significantly smaller than current UU, with very little overlap in the kinds of Pokemon competing there.
With all the BL Pokemon introduced, I believe most of what is currently UU will be left unable to compete, to the point where the new tier is basically a balanced version of current BL with a few deviations. The rest of UU, most likely the vast majority, will make up the third tier.
I therefore see it the opposite way to SHUCKLE MAN. Only the stronger current UUs, or those that are otherwise adept at handling the new environment, will make it into the new UU.
If people still want NU in the literal sense it will still be available as a fourth tier, but it will still be the same old uninspiring shit that has always been there. I hope that makes things a bit clearer.
I don't really see the point of having a tier for uninspiring Pokemon like Delibird to compete in, because Smogon is a competitive site, and at that level, there simply isn't an real competitive strategy going on. If people want to play with that stuff, fine, but I don't think there should be an official Smogon "endorsement" of an ADV-style NU tier of crap.
Very few pokemon are actually Never Used in a literal sense perhaps with the exception of stuff like Caterpie, Magikarp and Cascoon.
Isn't inspiration subjective? I personally find stuff like Ariados, Parasect, Magcargo and Seviper more interesting and inspiring than a lot of other pokemon that are likely to end up in UU (be they fully evolved or NFE) and had I the power to remove a tier for being "uninspiring" it would be OU that you'd be waving goodbye to ...
I don't see why an NU tier couldn't be competitive, if a little effort went into making it a fun and balanced environment rather than simply a dumping ground.
But they aren't NU Pokemon, especially Magcargo who is an UU staple. They all have useful niches. Ariados can trap pass, Magcargo is a decent physical wall with plenty of support options and Recover, Parasect works well in the rain and is the only Sporer in UU, and Seviper is powerful on both sides with a wide variety of attacks and not by any means easy to switch in on. And, most importantly, they see use.
If you can manage to make a fun and inspiring tier out of genuinely NU Pokemon then great, I'd be the first to offer my congrats. It is however impossible to do until we have played the higher tiers for a while and accumulate some reliable statistics, otherwise we wouldn't have a clue what qualifies.
Well they certainly fell under Obi's ADV-style tier of NU crap ...
We're obviously experiencing very different UU metagames at the moment, because besides myself I've come across very few players who use anything other the small group at the top of the tier. Its got to the point where I started leaving matches because each match is simply a rehash of the last ... I'm simply not experiencing people using stuff like Parasect and Seviper. If I play for a couple of hours I see twenty or so Ninetales, Pinsirs, Hypnos and maybe one Politoed and Seviper.
Perhaps I've just been unlucky and useage statistics will verify your experience of the game, I hope so, because otherwise I fear that a lot of useable stuff will simply vanish into NU oblivion.
Well, we've got the new usage statistics for April. Looks like Alakazam, Kingdra, Wobbffet and Deoxys-S are all OU (or if not, very nearly OU).
I do appreciate that and I don't necessarily want everything to be used equally, however a little diversity every now and again would be nice.
Up until a month or so ago there was some diversity in UU, but now it's hard to tell where one match ends and another begins as teams have become almost carbon copy clones of each other.
Of course the prevalence of things like Ninetales and Pinisr could be taken as a sign that they should possibly have been moved up, or UU split up a while ago ... but c'est la vie.
Up until a month or so ago there was some diversity in UU, but now it's hard to tell where one match ends and another begins as teams have become almost carbon copy clones of each other.
Of course the prevalence of things like Ninetales and Pinisr could be taken as a sign that they should possibly have been moved up, or UU split up a while ago ... but c'est la vie.
Well I never said they were used often, just that they do see occasional use, and that they have competitive potential there. I lost a match to a Seviper one time as it Giga Drained my 'counter' Gastrodon, a move I previously didn't even know it learned.
As for the current UU metagame I think there are two plausible reasons for the staleness. One is that there are so few people who play UU still that there is simply not enough regularity in play and variety of battlers to achieve a fully fleshed out metagame. People new to UU are completely overwhelmed by the depth and find the only way to get stuck in from the beginning is to copy strategies from experienced players.
Secondly, there is as yet no well defined upper boundary to help normalize the metagame besides the faux tier BL. If there were a second tier above it there would be a means of assessing growing trends in popularity of certain Pokemon that in some cases get carried forward to the tier above (I can certainly see Pinsir and Ninetales getting plenty of use up there) and therefore the tiers are less likely to get stale. No guarantee though.
The gap in quality between OU and UU is simply too great at the moment that no matter how dominating some Pokemon are in UU they will not likely ever break into OU as they are simply outclassed, therefore the only move to be made is to BL, which people are reluctant to do without good reason.
I somewhat agree with you on the state of UU. I haven't played a single match for over a month, mostly due to circumstances beyond my control, but I was already growing tired of seeing certain Pokemon again and again. Pinsir especially, and you know how much I'm against Pinsir, it simply has no grounds for being in UU. I'm very sorry if the situation has worsened still since then, but that is even more reason to press on with these changes.
On a different note, I've noticed that Hippowdon is no longer OU according to the recent statistics. I hope we can all agree that it will be an auto-BL Pokemon once a new tier is established, based purely on its trait.
Theres quite alot of OU/BL movement as far as this month goes. Tangrowth for one has fallen way off OU and is almost level with Hitmontop usuage now.
Erm Forsety, you might want to look at this ...
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38840.
We should probably be thinking about adding Abomasnow too the UU auto-ban list too ...
*Edit* Who's been feeding my Ariados? It's huge now ...
So Snover, Hippopotas, Abomasnow and Hippowdon will automatically be BL if we use X-Act's OU list?
That's providing that we actually go through with any of this...
That's providing that we actually go through with any of this...
Not until everybody points and laughs at me for being gullable. :)
I'm personally just very relieved that Smeargle isn't listed as OU.
I am shocked some of you thought the list was real... come on, if Arcanine and Smeargle were OU material then so would Togekiss/Hippowdon who were not on that fake list.
Glad to know I was one of the few that posted in thier that could easily say it was a fake.
Anyway to ODDish: You would be happy to know that my UU team uses some of the lesser used UU pokemon.
Anyway I really want to see this new UU tier thing done soon.
Glad to know I was one of the few that posted in thier that could easily say it was a fake.
Anyway to ODDish: You would be happy to know that my UU team uses some of the lesser used UU pokemon.
Anyway I really want to see this new UU tier thing done soon.
- Status