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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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tangrowth to OU

tangrowth seems like it is REALLY good compared to other BLs. On many forums it is OU. The movepool is good (though to deal with steels you need to breed hidden power fire) but it is still quite capable of healing itself with leech seed, and sleep powder / knock off can cripple incoming sweepers. Most every match at least one in your lineup goes down quickly, and tangrowth is no more likely than the others to be the one. I had a run in with a choice band salamence and a mixed garchomp- they couldnt handle tangrowth. With leech seed on garchomp (and leftovers for me) i pumped off giga drains and it couldnt even kill me after 3 fire blasts (the fourth one missed). I beat that garchomp with full health only to sleep the oncoming salamence (after some dragon attack) then I smoked it with ancient power. The blissey beat my weakened tangrowth with ice beam (but i seeded its ass and won with a few remaining). It can switch in and suck up earthquakes, close combats and random dragon attacks all day. That's just one battle of many i have won with tangrowth pulling more than its own weight against the 600 total base stat monsters of d/p. Do not be fooled by its multiple common weaknesess! With so many sets to choose from tangrowth can be clutch in any OU team. It has huge oldschool synergy when mixed with thick fat snorlax (the important weaknesses of tangrowth are covered by the beastly curselax) Ideas why it is still BL?
 
From the first post, in this thread ...

You must adhere to the stipulation that we are only discussing BL->UU and vice-versa for now; this is not the time nor place to complain that Blissey (or any other Pokémon) is uber, that Manaphy is not uber, or that because you think you maybe saw eight Scizors yesterday Scizor should now be OU.
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Sorry this is not the place for this discussion.
 
I've not met a single Claydol on Shoddy in UU yet, but from the way my team is made, i think i would have serious problems with him. Then again, when you have a team relying on stealth rock/toxic spikes in UU, you know you've got problems, so i'm just stating what i think.
 
I have swept OU teams with it
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Who cares?

Anyways, he two sets you have mentioned are perfectly counterable in UU. The Absol set is easily walled by Aggron, Probopass and also Steelix if allowed. Replace Stone Edge with Rock Smash and things are a little different but then you have a much weaker attack to work with. Then there's the fact that it is quite slow and easy prey for the multitude of fighters in UU.

As for the Lapras set, take your pick of bulky water, of which there are many, to wall it and take it down in some way or another. IMO Body Slam/Return is a far better second move alongside Waterfall as together they are unresisted in UU I think. With that Curse Lapras can be quite dangerous to a team that doesn't have a effective way of damaging it, especially in a last Pokemon situation. Fortuately though, unlike with Snorlax, Water/Ice carries plenty of common weaknesses, so it is no excuse to not be prepared for it, and thus relying on a critical, which obviously cannot happen against Lapras, should never occur.

Also, there are Pokemon like Hitmonlee, Primeape and Pinsir that have no true counter whatsoever yet are still in UU (at least for the time being), mainly because we realize that because of the multitude of new attacks in D/P, so many Pokemon in UU can carry almost perfect coverage that it is simply impractical to ban them all, and instead learn to adjust to a metagame where some Pokemon have no true counter but instead must be dealt with by more subtle means than just sending in the perfect wall every time. That's how I feel about UU anyway.
 
I think Lapras should be shouldn't be either because of Curse, Ice Shard, Waterfall, Rest.
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Ice Shard nonwithstanding, Walrein can pull off that set as well and might be a bit better since it gets EQ, hitting everything in UU (sans Surskit) neutral while Lapras can't do much against opposing water types. Actually, they can both hit everything neutral by using Waterfall/Return, but Ava/EQ hits a fair amount more SE. To be honest, I haven't seen either Lapras or Walrein much in UU, but the few times I have seen them they haven't been impossible to deal with since they both have several common weaknesses to hit.

Also, there are Pokemon like Hitmonlee, Primeape and Pinsir that have no true counter whatsoever yet are still in UU (at least for the time being), mainly because we realize that because of the multitude of new attacks in D/P, so many Pokemon in UU can carry almost perfect coverage that it is simply impractical to ban them all, and instead learn to adjust to a metagame where some Pokemon have no true counter but instead must be dealt with by more subtle means than just sending in the perfect wall every time. That's how I feel about UU anyway.
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That's a pretty good way of putting it. I'm still thinking that some of the pokemon you mentioned are possibly too strong for UU anyways (a limit exists to the "counterable by prediction" point, though most of them are probably fine).
 
The difference between Lapras and Walrein is that Lapras can run a DD set and go for the sweep. Retun/Waterfall hits everything neutral and Laprad is bulky enough to take hits. And if something can OHKO Lapras it will be probably be OHKO'd by boosted Waterfall.
 
As a frequent user of DD Lapras I can attest that it is a force to be reckoned with, however from my experience of using it in both the OU and UU environments, I've reached a conclusion that it is similar to Swellow in that it is actually comparitively less effective in the UU environment.

In OU your usual set-ups are bulky water types (Milotic, Vaporeon etc.) who are rarely equipped to deal with Lapras, and the "The Evil One" assuming she is of the Seismic Toss variety.

IN UU set upping is far more difficult as the majority of bulky waters carry some sort of phasing move, Blastoise can roar/haze/yawn, Quagsire can haze/encore/yawn, Politoed can haze/perish song. "The Evil One" has no real equivalent in UU ...

When you add to that the increased number of fighting types with priority moves, and the increased usage of moves like Rock Blast and Encore, setting her up can be difficult.

Also, there are Pokemon like Hitmonlee, Primeape and Pinsir that have no true counter whatsoever yet are still in UU (at least for the time being), mainly because we realize that because of the multitude of new attacks in D/P, so many Pokemon in UU can carry almost perfect coverage that it is simply impractical to ban them all, and instead learn to adjust to a metagame where some Pokemon have no true counter but instead must be dealt with by more subtle means than just sending in the perfect wall every time. That's how I feel about UU anyway.
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Seconded ... although Claydol becoming UU is bad news for Hitmonlee, its probably as a good a counter as we're likely to get for it.
 
I do not see how Hitmonlee can be compared to Swords Dance Pinsir in the list of "uncounterable Pokémons". It is by no mean capable of contending with a defensive Hypno, that can avoid the 2hko from Earthquake even if coming from max Attack, Choice Banded Hitmonlee. Rotom is faster, does not get ohkoed by Choice Banded Stone Edge (barring ch) and can switch into any other moves without suffering damages, threatening a Will-o-wisp. Defensive poison types can easily take on Hitmonlee's attacks barring Earthquake (that still does not ohko) and deal back an huge amount of damages to those 50 base hp/53 base defense. Also Lee falls to priority moves, while Pinsir always survives 2 CB Bullet Punches from Adamant Metagross even without Leftovers and with 0 hp/0 defense EVs, just for the record. Also Claydol is UU, now..
 
I have a question, not so much about the placement of an individual pokemon (well, that too), but about UU itself. Idk if this is really simple or not but whatever. I'm asking here. Before skyrocketing in popularity, Tentacruel was UU. Now it is OU. Given that OU is defined by the most used things, in essence (right?), this makes sense.

However, before becoming popular (to my knowledge) Tentacruel did not pose a significant threat to UU, as in, its inclusion in UU was not broken or overcentralizing. I have actually played some UU, but not enough to be able to say how much that statement is true, but given that many sites put Tenta as UU, and nothing that I know puts it as BL, I can to some extent say that Cruel had no problems in UU.

Now, this poses a problem then: things in OU are inherently banned from UU, yet Tentacruel while is not too powerful for UU. My question is this: even though Tentacruel may be acceptable from a power point of view for UU, should the fact that his popularity is high enough for OU warrant a ban from UU?
 
My question is this: even though Tentacruel may be acceptable from a power point of view for UU, should the fact that his popularity is high enough for OU warrant a ban from UU?
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Yeah, that's the way it is. I don't really like it, as it distorts the tiers a bit considering that it does decrease the number of available pokemon to use in UU with no regard to power, but...meh, that's how it's done.
 
I mean, I had UU team sitting in my PC that I used to use, and someone challenged me to a battle. (Friend I know in person, but lives far away). I hadn't battled UU in a while, so I just picked up my old team and went to it. When we battled and I had a Tentacruel, he was like "omg, smogon says that's OU". But there's really no solution?
 
jenigmat429 said:
I mean, I had UU team sitting in my PC that I used to use, and someone challenged me to a battle. (Friend I know in person, but lives far away). I hadn't battled UU in a while, so I just picked up my old team and went to it. When we battled and I had a Tentacruel, he was like "omg, smogon says that's OU". But there's really no solution?
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Its just that statistically speaking, Tentacruel is overused now... it kinda ruins the point to play in UU with one of the most overused pokemon in the metagame...
 
That's true. I only ask because there are probably examples of something that is really useful in UU, say something that is one of the better walls, such as Altaria, and it suddenly it gets bumped up to OU (sounds unlikely, but it's Tenta's story). That'd have a huge effect on the UU metagame. More just a theoretical question than anything, though of course you are entirely right.
 
Tentacruel was fortunate in that it found a specific niche, where it didn't really have much in the way of competition, I don't think many UU pokemon will be as fortunate (and as mcuh I as I love her Altaria is a pretty safe bet to remain UU ;) ).

A couple of points from the other UU/BL thread ...

Everything on the "UU's to be tested" list is currently listed as UU with the exception of Leafeon ... should we remove it to the BL's to be brought down or simply leave it as BL.

AA also posted that he couldn't believe Regigigas wasn't UU, something Bologo brought up in this thread recently and was overlooked in terms of discussion.

Thoughts? Comments?
 
On the other hand chances are if you do use Tenta in a UU team against any half experienced UU player probably will just let it pass. I know I'm not going to kick up any fuss because most still consider Tenta UU regardless.
 
Ehi, in RSE a good majority of "Calmcune counters" were UU, even if it was the strongest tank in OU and one of the most threatening things in the entire standard metagame. But, hell, I would not ever accept a Suicune in UU, if anything because of the usages; the same goes for Tyranitar. OU = Over Used, tiers are based on usage, power based tier lists make no sense at all since power is largely subjective and you need to counter the most common things in the metagame you play, not the strongest (I know they usually correspond).

Regigigas could be cool in UU. Tough the defenses are a bit broken and learning both Thunder Wave and Confuse Ray makes him pretty annoying to deal with. I think it would require some testing. :}
 
On one hand, 1 look at Regi's base stats and i'm thinking how the hell can this be UU.
On the other hand.. he's one of those freaks who might be able to work in OU but not in UU because UU is more aggresively based (i'm looking at you tenta).
So.. i think UU , testing.
 
I think Regigigas can take a bump down. He's not really threatening since he has his Speed and Attack cut in half. He can't wear Choice Band because he wants to switch, he lacks a healing move (yet has Sleep Talk. Interesting...), has elemental punches, etc. Good job Gamefreak for taking a decent Pokemon and making it a mess. I don't see it as threatening myself, but I agree it should be tested for UU.
 
No way, Regigigas doesnt even get REST!? Thats very very very gay. I mean, it's a Regi, isn't it? Their whole point of existence is to like "stall" or curse sweep, but without recovery, regigigas can't do anything good. You can even roar it away. Just set up a freaking sub, and it's helpless against you. With 200 attack, it won't do much until Slow Start wears off (and it gets it's act together lol) and you can merely phaze it out.

LAMEZORZ, Regigigas, I disown you!!
 
Okay I've been testing Torterra/Steelix/Drapion the past few days in UU matches the past few days and here's what I've come up with:

Torterra does just about exactly as I predicted. Outspeeds everything sans Choice Scarfers after a Rock Polish (with HP EV's to spare), and can OHKO most things with EQ/Wood Hammer/Stone Edge. Counters are buly grasses( no grass/poison) with ice attacks. This leaves very few pokemon, mainly Meganium or Carnvine with HP Ice. If you predict correctly you can kill it with a scarfed ice attack but this is tricky. I would keep it where it's at, no wall can really stop it in UU.

Steelix seems tough but it certainly has its downsides. Most physical sweepers carry a fighting/ground/water attack which often 2HKO Steelix after STAB and while Steelix hits rather hard for UU it usually cannot OHKO without Atk ev's. Special attacks also kill it. It can be trapped and killed by a Magnet Rise/Earth Power Probopass. It'ss a good utility pokemon with SR and Roar, but it also lacks a reliable recovery move. It might be fine for UU.

Drapion is less impressive than I originally thought. It seems good, but its stats are so spread out it can't do one thing effectively. A Jolly Swords dance set cannot KO most walls while they can EQ back for the kill, and defensive sets lack recovery to wall things effectively. Personally i prefer Skuntank, at least it can explode. It can move down I suppose. On a side note, Drapion is extremely ugly. I hated using it and seeing its ugly head every match.

Just my thoughts.
 
No way, Regigigas doesnt even get REST!? Thats very very very gay.
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Such an insightful contribution ...

Anyhoo ... thank you -Cynthia for something interesting and intelligent.

I've actually come across a couple of people using Torterra over the last few days, but unfortunately like the other times I battled those using it clearly weren't using it to its potential ... however you know your stuff so I'm happy to take your word for it.

You wouldn't mind doing a bit of testing with Leafeon or Regigigas would you? I'm currently (trying to) test Leafeon, but you know how difficult it can be getting a UU battle on Shoddy.

So Drapion ... Steelix ... Regigigas .... Leafeon. Feelings for or against? Any experiences of using them?
 
I've used Leafeon, but I don't remember, as I was a noob. However, looking at it's stats, it would be walling, Sword Dance, and Baton Pass. You can say phazing, but that's why Leafeon carries Roar.
 
Leafeon seems like he really wouldn't be that great of a wall in UU IMO. Meganium outclasses him there completely because, Leafeon really can't take a special hit with 65/65 special defensive stats.
 
Bologo said:
Leafeon seems like he really wouldn't be that great of a wall in UU IMO. Meganium outclasses him there completely because, Leafeon really can't take a special hit with 65/65 special defensive stats.
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Leafeon's higher defense gives it some advantages over Meganium in the walling department. It's better for taking on all-physical threats like Golem, and it's good speed means it can outspeed some things.
 
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