DPP Baton Pass

BKC

Banned deucer.
is the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Champion
#1
Hi guys,

the DPP council feels the time has come to finally do something about Baton Pass. There are plenty of threads and plenty of experiences across the past 8 years that show how undesirable it is that you can look up if you're so inclined. While it does have competitive uses, such as being a mainstay on most Jolteon sets and the possibility of some Celebi/Zapdos sets, those generally pale next to the teams that viciously remove interaction from battles as one side either crushes the other or gets crushed, the only constant about them. Both Gliscor pass and full chains are strategies that take games out of players' hands and make for a generally uncompetitive experience.

We are not in favor of outright banning the move Baton Pass, however. A few years ago, in the midst of Quiver/SmashPass ridiculousness, the idea that you cannot pass both Speed and another stat came up, and we think this would solve the issue. However, we are quite open to suggestions or any thoughts on BP as a whole, and that is what this thread is for.

To conclude, BP abuse has gone on long enough. This would remove what many consider the one true "cheese" strategy in the tier, and many feel we should have done this a long time ago.

Lastly, while you may sneer that this will not remove the Jirachi/Machamp/Breloom/Infernape/Zapdos/hazards/lack of team preview/whatever else you think makes the tier bad, that is not what this thread is for and I would ask that your viewpoint isn't "we have bigger issues like this jirachi that just flinched out my leftovers magnezone." If you have issues with those other Pokemon, we encourage you to bring those up in threads of their own. Put up or shut up. Do not let your other dislikes cloud you from this issue.
 
Last edited:

Oglemi

red hot like pizza supper
is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Secret Boss Mod
#2
Dealing with full chains is way easier than dealing with Gliscor Pass.

Full chains are completely neutered if you do any of the following:
Ban Mean Look/Spider Web + BP
Ban Ingrain + BP
Ban Mr. Mime
Ban Umbreon
Ban Smeargle
Ban BP on more than 3 mons per team (undesirable from Zarel's pov iirc)

The difference between them is pretty negligible, and I don't think any are necessary to the tier and would solve the issue. Mr. Mime is there because Soundproof eliminates Roar as an answer, and Roar is way more common than Whirlwind in OU. Umbreon since banning trappassing is essentially removing just it, not like Ariados is really going to be able to step up to the plate (I mean, maybe it could, haven't tried it).

Gliscor pass is more difficult because there's no "quick fix" to it. You could either:

Ban Azelf
Ban Electrode
Ban Gliscor
Ban Gligar
Ban Dual Screens + BP on the same team (very undesirable and needlessly complex)
Ban Agility + Swords Dance + BP on the same Pokemon (akin to SmashPass ban)

My personal favorites are banning trappassing and the Agility+SD+BP ban. They're also less "extreme" bans, but I would rather we go less extreme to more extreme. Hate needlessly gutting things that don't need it.
 

MrAldo

Bird Enthusiast
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
#3
I dont play DPP per say but I have certainly wondered about ways of nerfing baton pass and still be able to keep it since it has some notable uses for a good couple of mons moreso than in other metagames afaik so the topic really intrigues me.

How complicated would be to implement a clause that bans baton pass + any boost? Asking for it since from the couple of games I have seen were baton pass chains have been involved, there is a boost passing of some sort with metagross as recipient (could be jirachi). Not sure how convoluted would it be to implement hence why Im asking but this could potentially solve the issue.

The main issue is knowing the little details behind the metagame. Like from what I can see banning speed passing maybe teams will find a way to pass the boosts to a mon with substitute or/and a salac berry but idk how relevant this item is as a whole. It is a very interesting conversation and Id like to contribute to it cause boy, baton pass chains are really dumb. Some clarifications would be nice about the salac bit btw.

If everything fails, banning speed passing as a whole can potentially solve the issue too, thankfully in dpp there are less boosts you can end up passing.
 

ABR

is a Tournament Directoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Championwon the 13th Official Smogon Tournamentis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Champion
OU Leader
#4
I'm glad that this topic has gained some traction among some DPP minds, because BP in its current form is problematic.

That being said, I'm extremely against needlessly complex bans. DPP already has the awful track record of the sand veil glisc ban (which could've just been gliscor itself OR veil as a whole if u wanna keep glisc), but furthering this with something like banning "agility + sd + bp" is just ridiculous. You need to ask what's really worth keeping around and what level of complexity is truly justified. In the glisc case, i get that it's something people want around so sure don't ban gliscor but why not just ban sand veil as a whole if you want to pin the issue on that instead of gliscor? Does it really matter if people can't use sandslash or cacturne?

For BP, we might be banning non-broken things like dry pass jolteon with a blanket ban of the move BP but does it really matter? Is the cost of complexity worth it? I get there's some overall philosophy here that tier playability trumps tiering nuances fully but that's just an ignorant and irresponsible way of going about things on this site. I'd get it if it was necessary, but it's not. If you can cut out the issue (BP) in its entirety with extremely minimal cost (how often do you see drypassing in DPP games?) then you do it. Further convoluting the tiering of a generation, for whatever that's worth to anyone, isn't worth it for jolteon or whatever else is used once in a blue moon.

I'd be beyond disappointed to see another complex ban in DPP.
 
#5
It's not just dry passing that you'd lose by flat out banning BP. There are plenty of great BP opportunities that are not broken, yet add variety to the metagame. Just because the majority of players aren't innovating in DPP (see: everybody just stealing known teams) doesn't mean we should block means of innovation.

What exactly is the cost of a complex ban? Some invisible barrier to entry into the tier? That's an absurd premise that I've never bought into. If anybody is going to take the time to learn an old metagame like DPP, a "complex" ban of speed + stat passing is not what's going to stop them. Give people some credit - Smogon is far more complex than that with the dozens of metagames with different ban lists to juggle. People figure them out just fine.

Between raw BP, sub passing, CM passing, etc. there are more than a few non-broken strategies in DPP that we'd effectively eliminate for the sake of simplicity... is that really our priority?

Edit: To be clear, my proposal is to ban speed + stat passing. Doesn't seem very complex to me.

Edit 2: I'd also be happy with pana's proposal.
 
Last edited:

panamaxis

how many seconds in eternity?
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
#6
Please do not do a blanket ban of the move baton pass. Things such as NP/CM celebi or agility zapdos baton passing to another receiver, such as empoleon, for example, are legitimate, competitive strategies. Even dry passing alone with pokemon like Celebi and jolteon is a legitimate strategy to scout, escape pursuit (if faster), or simply give a safe switch-in to another pokemon (if slower). I hate Gliscorpass and Full Baton Pass as much as anyone, but I don't think the issue is significant enough to warrant a blanket ban on batonpass, and I am glad to see the indication from the council being that they are not in favour of a blanket ban. A ban of Baton Pass + any boost is, with respect, a bad idea for the same reason - it's a legitimate, competitive strategy.

I agree with ABR that DPP has a bad track record with complex bans. I would hope that we have learnt, from the revision of the evasion clause ban to allow Snow Cloak and Sand Veil on pokemon without a secondary ability (ie the Free Froslass vote), that the community's preference is that we don't ban uncompetitive strategies in a way that unnecessarily neuters competitive strategies or pokemon.

Banning Agility + SD + Baton Pass won't stop baton pass chains from passing Speed + NP/CM to a receiver and doing the same thing they've always done, and for that reason is not a suitable solution. I also think it is needlessly complex.

The real issue with full baton pass strategies is Ninjask. Obviously you can run the same strategy with something like zapdos in Ninjask's place, but you don't get +6 speed by just sitting there, and +2 speed is, in many cases, not going to be sufficient for common passers like Umbreon or Vaporeon to outrun the faster threats of the metagame - eg Choice Scarf Jirachi. The problem with Ninjask is you either sit there while it subs + protects on you and easily gets +4-6 speed or you switch to something else and risk it subbing and it being able to, worst case scenario for Ninjask, pass +2 speed and a substitute before you get a hit off. And if you go to your phaser, such as swampert, you risk them passing to Mr Mime and by that point you're in a huge hole and it quickly snowballs out of control.

Whereas if you're using something like Agility Zapdos in Ninjask's place, you can't pass a substitute + speed for free. You can pass one or the other. And if you choose to agility on my switch, now you have to face taking a huge hit from my tyranitar or heatran without your substitute up, and it becomes a lot more manageable.

The real issue with Gliscor pass is taunt. Banning taunt + baton pass on the same set it a simple solution with minimal adverse impacts on the metagame (it really only affects gliscor and I suppose gligar). Dual Screen gliscpass strategies become unviable if you ban taunt + baton pass on the same set.

My suggestion would be to Ban Ninjask and Ban Taunt + Baton Pass on the same set. I think this solves the problem of both strategies with minimal impact on the metagame.
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
is a Tiering Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 14 Championis a Past SPL Champion
#7
The most popular full BP team doesn't even run Ninjask.
Bet this is gonna be another case of "let's preserve as much as possible" only to revisit the issue later because some dude found a way to make a team that can still cheese autowins with a new form of baton pass abuse.
Banning Taunt+Baton Pass in the case of Gliscor won't help if you don't pack Trick (which can be played around with Sub) or a phazing move (and let's not pretend every DPP teams have one).

Personally, I'd just apply methods that showed their success in the past:
- Ban BP completely (which resolved all issues in ORAS/SM)
- Ban more than 1 BP user per team + Ban all possibilities of baton passing speed and another stat (BW)

Any other methods applied before led to some form of Baton Pass abuse, even if less consistent.
 

panamaxis

how many seconds in eternity?
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
#8
Banning Taunt+Baton Pass in the case of Gliscor won't help if you don't pack Trick (which can be played around with Sub) or a phazing move (and let's not pretend every DPP teams have one).
Or substitute, to stall out screens and then hit the receiver hard once they wear off. Or potentially your own set-up moves to boost alongside gliscor (though I see this as much more risky/less reliable). Or your own Taunter - since Gliscor/other pokemon can't taunt you back if it's running baton pass. The OP states that this has been brought up because it's uncompetitive. I don't think it's necessary to make baton pass strategies completely unviable, but rather to make it so that they aren't "uncompetitive autowins". I think this proposal offers reasonable counterplay, which is all it is aimed at doing.

The most popular full BP team doesn't even run Ninjask.
Can you post an importable/link of this team?

Bet this is gonna be another case of "let's preserve as much as possible" only to revisit the issue later because some dude found a way to make a team that can still cheese autowins with a new form of baton pass abuse.
Well, we should discuss whether it's still possible to cheese autowins in this thread if certain ban proposals are enacted rather than go with the most drastic option immediately - that's what this thread is for after all.

I could make the opposite argument of "bet this is gonna be another case of "let's go with the most drastic option" only to revisit the issue later because we realised the benefits of the drastic ban do not outweigh the effects it has on legitimate strategies/pokemon - which is exactly what happened with the revisiting of Sand Veil/Snow Cloak issue.

I don't see why we would have to, or want to, make baton pass completely unviable. Surely if reasonable counterplay is available against it then we've succeeded?
 
Last edited:

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
is a Tiering Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 14 Championis a Past SPL Champion
#9
I'll give you Taunt as a counterplay, I forgot about that. I don't know about Sub's viability though, as the sub user has to threaten Gliscor in some way, and the Gliscor user gets to pick what to send in the face of the Sub user afterwards anyway.

Regarding the full BP team that's been going around, here it is: http://pokepast.es/cf9f2f64609375b9
I've used/seen variations with Azelf lead.

I don't think the Veil/Cloak issue is comparable at all. Maybe the first ban was too much, but we didn't get "cheesy" games in the meantime as a result of it since well, everything was banned. Meanwhile, what always happened in the past with Baton Pass is that some kind of abusable strategy was still around and available and got to cheese a few wins before it had to be revisited again.

When you ban too much, you maybe restrict available strategies, but there is no "harm" in tournaments in my opinion. You trade not seeing cheesy BP wins for the unavailability of some foreign strategies (Froslass was used once since its reintroduction, between the last WCoP and SPL for example, and we've already established here that most Baton Pass options outside of Gliscor/Full BP are a rare sight).
When you ban too little, you waste time and end up encountering the problem yet again, and then you have to go through the process of convincing the right people to hold discussions/a suspect again too.

I think and am convinced through experience that Baton Pass will continue to find ways to get cheesy wins if you don't nerf it like it's been done in BW/ORAS/SM.
 
#10
A blanket ban of Baton Pass is the best option. From what I gathered playing DPP in the past few months and spectating it in the past few years, NP/CMpass Celebi, SubPass Zapdos or whatever else is barely ran to begin with. Why should we try to go into a more complex ban to nerf the "broken BP strats"? You could argue for the sake of variety, but DPP already offers quite a lot of variety to begin with. So why bother?

I think and am convinced through experience that Baton Pass will continue to find ways to get cheesy wins if you don't nerf it like it's been done in BW/ORAS/SM.


e: to clarify, I only support the two options Roro posted about. I just genuinely prefer going with no complex banning.
 
Last edited:

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#11
The BW ban (as McMeghan described above) would apply to DPP wonderfully. It targets exactly the two archetypes that are bogus, quick Gliscorpass and full pass, while leaving dry pass (or heck nasty pass/cm pass) Celebi, agility pass zapdos, etc untouched.
 

-Tsunami-

Tournament Banned
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis the 2nd Smogon Classic Winneris a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
#12
I agree with Roro. If there is one thing we should have learned from the absurd Baton Pass complex bans we have had in the past, it's that this move is absolutely ridiculous and people will always find a way to finesse some wins from it unless you outright ban it or nerf it so heavily that it becomes impossible to cheese a win with it. There's not even that many Pokemon that actually use Baton Pass in a "non-cheese" fashion in 2018 DPP; I see no reason to avoid completely dealing with such a frustrating issue just to save these marginal strategies. I would prefer just outright banning the move, but banning more than 1 BP user per team + banning all possibilities of Baton Passing Speed and another stat as was done in BW is probably fine too; I don't really think it would be possible to abuse this in DPP. There have been far too many examples across Smogon history of this move being ludicrous. Every time we have tried to dance around the issue and keep the strategy even somewhat viable, we have had to revisit it again and again. Heavily restricting its usage or just outright banning it are by far the best options.
 
#13
I think it is important to keep the barrier of entry as low as possible for an old gen that already requires a fair amount of background knowledge to excel in. I personally cannot remember what BW's current BP policy is or what ORAS's was before transitioning to a blanket ban. It's only one thing, yes, but it's one thing on a long list of generational differences that people who play multiple gens/tiers have to keep straight.

I also want to challenge anyone who supports a ban on the current Gliscor / full chain BP teams to articulate exactly why they are "cheesy" and explain how these principles do not apply in just as equal measure to any less-involved quick-pass boosting strategies. Because in my mind, if you're trying to pass boosts to Heatran / Gyarados / etc., you're expecting to get multiple kills out of it, or else what was the point of spending at least two slots on it? And is its success not just as contingent on exploiting the opponent's lack of preparation / counterplay as these current strategies are?
 

panamaxis

how many seconds in eternity?
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
#14
Regarding the full BP team that's been going around, here it is: http://pokepast.es/cf9f2f64609375b9
I've used/seen variations with Azelf lead.
Ok yeah, this team is nasty because of ingrain.

A blanket ban of Baton Pass is the best option. From what I gathered playing DPP in the past few months and spectating it in the past few years, NP/CMpass Celebi, SubPass Zapdos or whatever else is barely ran to begin with. Why should we try to go into a more complex ban to nerf the "broken BP strats"? You could argue for the sake of variety, but DPP already offers quite a lot of variety to begin with. So why bother?
A blanket ban of baton pass is not the best option; it's the laziest option. So what if something is barely used? It's not broken, so why should we ban it? Even if stat/sub pass is barely ran, dry baton pass is not that rare. Specs Jolteon, Dry Pass celebi + dugtrio/magnezone are not that uncommon. I've used both.

I'd be interested to hear opinions from people who were involved in the BW ban why it was necessary to also ban Baton Pass on more than one pokemon if Speed + Another Stat + Baton Pass is banned. Someone could easily make a legitimate team with something like NP pass togekiss + BP celebi and we'd be limiting that kind of strategy if we banned baton pass on more than one pokemon.

Banning Speed + Another Stat + Baton Pass is a much superior option. I'd support a ban in that form. I wouldn't personally be in favour of banning BP on more than one pokemon. Aren't these kind of full BP teams crippled enough if they can't pass speed?

I'd also support a ban of Ingrain + Baton Pass since that is only ever used on full BP teams.
 
#15
I'd like to know why chopping Gliscor isn't an option. Could kill two birds with one stone if you think Gliscor is the main Sand Veil offender, while also severely nerfing both QuickPass and Full BP teams in the process.


The following part of my post is not directly about DPP Baton Pass, but my opinion on DPP tiering and the ruleset as a whole, particularely the Sand Veil vote. I figured this was the perfect time to resurrect this topic, which in my opinion was never dealt with correctly.

The first Sand Veil (Snow Cloak) ban meant Froslass wasn't playable for the longest time, a ban people were fine with for a good year (roughly), so removing a borderline influential Pokemon from the tier has been done before, even if that was by "mistake".
Then there's BW Dugtrio. The BW council banned Dugtrio instead of Arena Trap, even when SM and ORAS already set the precedent on how to deal with trapping abilities. This is very similar to DPP Sand Veil. The only difference here is the collateral damage that was Froslass (and stuff like Cacturne I believe). While Froslass is not broken in any way, sacrificing it just to keep Gliscor would be sad and unnecessary. While I don't think this should've been a voting option at all, it is still a better clause than the one we're stuck with right now, which breaches tiering policy and has the potential to open the floodgates for a plethora of similar complex bans, something we should not do for reasons I'm sure you've heard a billion times before.

One could say people will adapt on Baton Pass with Gligar (or something else entirely), and that banning Gliscor doesn't solve the problem on the BP side of things, but if you look at the Dugtrio ban again, Diglett has seen usage on Sun teams, the ones that formerly used Dugtrio, with decent success. For what it's worth, I also got reqs for the SM Dugtrio (not Arena Trap) suspect test with Diglett stall and I believe KratosMana did too (I could also mention ABR's Gothorita antics during the ORAS Gothitelle suspect), proving Dugtrio alone wasn't the issue. This is relevant because banning Dugtrio outright was a flawed solution when there was a better one available, but this did not seem to bother the council. What I wanted to point out however, is that they're not completely similar cases, as the equivalent of the current DPP Sand Veil clause would be something like "Ban Arena Trap on anything with above 100 speed" or whatever. Banning Dugtrio outright is clearly the better solution here, and the same applies for Gliscor over the current Sand Veil ban.


My question here is why Gliscor has to be preserved at all cost, especially when Dugtrio didn't have to. Unlike the Dugtrio suspect, I believe there are only two viable voting options here: "Ban Gliscor" or "Do nothing". Evasion Clause through weather means we lose Froslass and the others, while I've already mentioned the problems with the current clause. In Dugtrio's case, banning Arena Trap doesn't have any side effect, and makes it a legitimate option. I don't think banning Gliscor is necessarily the optimal move right here, but I genuinely believe it is a viable solution that catches both the current DPP issues, while not breaking Smogon policy and making complex bans just to preserve Gliscor when it's just one Pokemon, and I believe it is far better than the current clause, which does exactly this.



Just so my post has some direct relevance to the thread, my stance on Baton Pass is that if it gets touched, it should probably be removed outright. I have had issues with the different stages of the Baton Pass clause in the past however, simply because it's such a unique case. I definitely see and understand the points panamaxis make about the viability of drypass on Jolteon/Celebi, as well as regular CM Pass Celebi and AgiPass Zapdos, but seeing the huge mess that ORAS Baton Pass clause became, getting rid of it completely might be worth it over time.

Whether I think Baton Pass actually needs a nerf is a different question entirely, and at this point I'm not sure it does, although I am entirely open to changing my opinion as I haven't really put much thought into the subject.
 
#16
Funny, I brought this up on discord in a private group. Should have figured that was a foreboding omen... all of these post generational tiering decisions have really neutered DPP. Sigh

I’m curious how more of the core DPP players (active from 2007-2010) feel about this. Frankly, while this is my opinion, I also happen to think this is the correct viewpoint—Gliscor pass isn’t the monster it’s being made out to be. Obviously, Haze shouldn’t be mandatory on every build, but let’s look at what really busts it up:

1. Faster taunt leads
2. Scarfers, particularly with Trick

Even if you don’t have those, you still have a shot depending on your build if you put yourself in optimal position. Secondly, if it’s so busted, why isn’t everyone using it in top level matches?

Simple answer: Mirrors are atrocious. You devolve the entire game to chance. Yeah, what a quote unquote monster. Please.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#17
I'd be interested to hear opinions from people who were involved in the BW ban why it was necessary to also ban Baton Pass on more than one pokemon if Speed + Another Stat + Baton Pass is banned. Someone could easily make a legitimate team with something like NP pass togekiss + BP celebi and we'd be limiting that kind of strategy if we banned baton pass on more than one pokemon.
If you look at the full pass DPP team that was shared, without this additional check, this team would pass. It's a teambuilder ban on speed boost + other boost + baton pass, not an actual in battle mod like sleep clause.

No individual mon on the sample DPP full pass team variations posted by McMeghan and denissss breaks the clause.
 

august

youre a voice that never sings
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnuswon the 5th Official Smogon Tournamentis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Champion
#18
Kevin Garrett sent out the bat signal for 2007-2010 dpp players so heres my 2 cents

My opinion is that both full chain + gliscor pass make teams that are perfectly viable into teams that need to sacrifice a lot of moveslots and use mons that don't fit as well just on the off chance that you face bp. No team should have to run one of the 2 options that KG mentioned if they want a chance at beating full chain / glisc pass, not to mention that:

a) there is no faster taunt lead than electrode, unless you want to use taunt on a scarfer
b) as long as gliscor is still able to get up a rock polish, there is no trick-scarfer in the game that is able to outspeed, and gliscor is able to just taunt them and set up another boost as they are forced to switch.

I won't discuss full chains much. Everyone here that is making a post should be familiar enough with full chains, otherwise why are you even posting here. Full chains are not competitive and can be easily neutered by the "more than one bp user" clause. However, this leads Gliscpass unattended, which I feel is not a good idea. "Oh glisc pass teams force you to use 2 slots on a screen setter + Gliscor, its your own gamble!". Some teams even resort to also using GLIGAR in addition to Glisc just for another pass attempt after the first. Common receivers are stuff like Metagross, Jirachi, Gyarados. Metagross and Jirachi resist most priority, and no priority move hits them super effectively. Metagross is able to run mash / eq / elemental punches (although zen headbutt > ip lets you hit Rotom). After a swords dance boost is passed, MAX/MAX+ skarm (a relatively dead set in current dpp except on heavily defensive builds) is able to phaze. Max/max hippo can do the trick as well. Physically defensive milo lives by the skin of her teeth to haze (if they even run haze, most dont). The problem is that most of the defensive teams can't really do anything as Gliscor goes for more boosts before passing into Metagross, so often times vs defensive teams Metagross will be sitting at +4 Atk, not +2. Not to mention that Jirachi is also a relatively common recipient, and he has the possibility of just flinching through counter play from Roar / Haze mons. Gyarados can take boosts as well, and he can Taunt to prevent haze/phaze. In my opinion, it is not only a "cheesy" strategy, it has enough counterplay vs teams that theoretically should beat it to the point where even if you've made accommodations to your team, it sometimes isn't enough. For the comment of Scarf mons: jira and gyara can outrun pretty much every relevant scarf mon with the boost. Meta loses to Jolly Scarfgon, who manages some decent dmg but no OHKO (72.4 - 85.7%) and ScarfApe, who admittedly can get the KO as long as screens are not up


Even if you don’t have those, you still have a shot depending on your build if you put yourself in optimal position. Secondly, if it’s so busted, why isn’t everyone using it in top level matches?

Simple answer: Mirrors are atrocious. You devolve the entire game to chance. Yeah, what a quote unquote monster. Please.
I don't think this is it. I think its because people that play DPP at the highest level have enough dignity to not rely on strategies like this. The problem (to me) is that you are forced to make sacrifices in the team builder that make you worse off against other teams just because you don't want to lose to BP on the big stage.

I'm strongly in favor of the complex ban on passing Speed and another stat.
 
Last edited:

Kevin Garrett

is a competitor
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 12 Championis a Past SPL Champion
#20
My initial post is only in reference to Gliscor pass, not full BP. I don’t have a stance on it since I haven’t seen it used in ages.

I’m referencing the classic wdro build featuring Azelf lead. Electrode doesn’t have Memento, so it’s not going to force the switch on Gliscor’s entry turn. Plus it doesn’t have Reflect, so you can make a compelling case it’s worse than both Azelf and Uxie. The most crucial part of the game is the beginning. The strategy is extremely vulnerable if everything doesn’t go according to plan. If they only have one screen up, they are open to an entire spectrum of attack. There are more trouble strategies than the 2 I listed in my first post. In addition to those, leads that threaten status with the backing of a strong attack or flinch potential in the case of Jirachi will often force only a single screen.

Gliscor can be overwhelmed in many ways to pass only a single boost, which should be the speed unless they misplay. Behind screens, Vaporeon 3HKOs Gliscor. If Gliscor doesn’t Taunt, it will get phazed. Suicune has a chance to 2HKO behind screens. Suicune can also viably run Roar, which Gliscor is never checking. For that matter, Gliscor can only reasonably Taunt few phazers (Skarmory and Hippowdon, perhaps a few more). It’s a tough call enough to Taunt a Swampert since it can threaten formidable damage. It’s never going to Taunt something like Roar Raikou, which is actually a very neat combo on a defensive team since you severely discourage Starmie and throw your opponent completely out of synch in a condensed role.

I’m not buying it’s low usage as being player dignity. Have you seen all of the angle shots that occur every damn tour by name players? The real reason is because you, me, and everyone else feels that we have a greater likelihood of winning with a more conventional, nuanced team. I’ve used Gliscor pass 2 times in the last 8 years as a means of disrupting matchup perception to keep people honest when they prepare for me. If you use it with any regularity, the win rate takes a nose dive. People will stack against it if you use it more than one time in a very selective spot.

Let’s talk about these tiering decisions going completely willy nilly on anything unpleasant to face. There is a very clear bias in old gen tiering for consensus standards and any strategy, however small, that disrupts its success is an instant target. It’s presented to the community as a decision to improve and increase competitive balance, but what it really does is increase stagnation. Sun and Chlorophyll was a target because it disrupted those precious Sand Spikes balances. Now look at BW, truly laughable to see the proponents of moleman BW make a PR thread about how much it’s ruined the tier. Let’s go back to DPP Salamence, which was a totally contrived backdoor decision that many people voted on the basis that it’s presence was bad for defense. The opposite was true, Salamence was blocking the niches of several more diverse and harder to remove threats to defense, which is referenced in the OP here as being a major complaint of DPP players today.

What people fail to realize is that there are unknown ripples that emanate from every decision, no matter the scale. It should be reserved for absolutely impacting strategies that play an active role in team building. You mean to tell me you build your stall teams to take account for Gliscor pass above all of the conventional threats? And if you don’t, how often are you getting burned? If this is happening with regularity, then you can adjust your approach to eliminate it and their win rates will take a big hit, reestablishing equilibrium.

Sparsely used disruptor strategies are a sign of a healthy metagame. If you want to look to nature for parallels, the mutation of hemoglobin that causes Sickle Cell Anemia increases resistance to Malaria in the population. Remove these aspects and you have a very stagnant, vulnerable situation for the metagame where the checks and balances of Gliscor pass fall out of usage, potentially resulting in a worse overall situation for the tier.

This is not to say that nothing should ever be done in old gens, but it has to be thoroughly proven to (1) destroy a majority of the metagame and (2) have the usage to support that the strategy is dominant to warrant an action. Before anyone goes off on this by showing how effective it is against common builds, first ask yourself do the builds it beats even pretend like it’s there. We used to run suspect ladders where you could see very evidently how something in question would perform when it is actually accounted for in the metagame. If people aren’t accounting for it, that in itself validates my point.
 
Last edited:
#21
Sparsely used disruptor strategies are a sign of a healthy metagame. If you want to look to nature for parallels, the mutation of hemoglobin that causes Sickle Cell Anemia increases resistance to Malaria in the population. Remove these aspects and you have a very stagnant, vulnerable situation for the metagame where the checks and balances of Gliscor pass fall out of usage, potentially resulting in a worse overall situation for the tier.
Would you mind elaborating on this point? I think you may be onto something important.
 

Mr.E

im the best
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
#22
DPP already has the awful track record of the sand veil glisc ban (which could've just been gliscor itself OR veil as a whole if u wanna keep glisc), but furthering this with something like banning "agility + sd + bp" is just ridiculous. You need to ask what's really worth keeping around and what level of complexity is truly justified. In the glisc case, i get that it's something people want around so sure don't ban gliscor but why not just ban sand veil as a whole if you want to pin the issue on that instead of gliscor? Does it really matter if people can't use sandslash or cacturne?
Hold up. Sand Veil isn't banned, even though it is (or was, I don't know since it's not like most metagames actually have their rules posted anywhere highly visible around here) banned in Gen 5 and the main reason Garchomp was banned in the first place is because nobody likes Sand Veil? :blobthinking:Nevermind that it's an objectively subpar ability that is literally worthless on its own, only useful in conjunction with the actually broken pokemon that activates it. Not like anyone cares for my opinion on the whole but at least don't ban Gliscor, that's really dumb. It's a pretty darned good general defensive mon with a unique typing, it'd be a shame to lose that teambuilding option. It's certainly better than Froslass, anyway. Logically, if the problem is a particular move, hit that particular move.


everything KG said; the pansy modern smorgen mindset has even recently infected my beloved GSC, as everyone but me and like two other people overwhelmingly voted to ban a thing that was never actually more than a hypothetical bogeyman
 

BKC

Banned deucer.
is the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Champion
#23
We are obviously not removing Gliscor. Other than not banning things unnecessarily, it wouldn't even fix anything. There's something to be said for simplicity of ruleset, but at the same time I don't think what we're doing is mind-blowingly complex, either. As Phil said,

What exactly is the cost of a complex ban? Some invisible barrier to entry into the tier? That's an absurd premise that I've never bought into. If anybody is going to take the time to learn an old metagame like DPP, a "complex" ban of speed + stat passing is not what's going to stop them. Give people some credit - Smogon is far more complex than that with the dozens of metagames with different ban lists to juggle. People figure them out just fine.
So roughly a month has passed. The council would like to move forward by implementing the BW ban of: no more than 1 Baton Pass User per team + no using Baton Pass while the user's Speed stat is above +0 (excluding Choice Scarf). This will remove all issues.

We'd like to do this before semifinals of WCoP, so a little under a week is the time before we plan on pulling the trigger.

Funny, I brought this up on discord in a private group. Should have figured that was a foreboding omen... all of these post generational tiering decisions have really neutered DPP. Sigh
We've removed Gliscor's Sand Veil (which EVERYONE hated back in the day) and Mamoswine's Snow Cloak (complaining about this is an incredible stretch). BP has never been part of DPP's identity, it's ALWAYS been "that thing that ruins games." How have we neutered the tier? It's the same one we know and love but minus the bullshit, which is ultimately positive.

1. Faster taunt leads
This is a really nice idea and all but in reality this is either an Azelf speed tie (lol) or Aerodactyl. (Or... Electrode/Alakazam. Also found on BP.)

2. Scarfers, particularly with Trick
So, Rotom and Jirachi (the latter doesn't even run Trick often). Not to mention it takes quite a bit of maneuvering to get these in on Gliscor before it's got an Agility (it doesn't have to come in immediately)... and we saw Gligar used effectively alongside it.

Even if you don’t have those, you still have a shot depending on your build if you put yourself in optimal position.
I said this in the old thread: EVERYONE who realizes they're facing Gliscor pass goes "oh shit I need to think about this" and exhausts every possible option before realizing they're just fucked. It's been happening for close to a decade. It removes the interaction in the game and decides it immediately.

Secondly, if it’s so busted, why isn’t everyone using it in top level matches?

Simple answer: Mirrors are atrocious. You devolve the entire game to chance. Yeah, what a quote unquote monster. Please.
BP isn't known for its reliability. That's why it isn't used in most important games. It's precisely this throw-everything-out-of-whack element that makes it so undesirable. This is also how I feel about it:

I think its because people that play DPP at the highest level have enough dignity to not rely on strategies like this. The problem (to me) is that you are forced to make sacrifices in the team builder that make you worse off against other teams just because you don't want to lose to BP on the big stage.
There's mostly the first one, but it's mainly the bolded part. Without getting into a diatribe on team matchup, the things that handle BP are so specific that it's unhealthy (and they're always finding ways around them as well).

My initial post is only in reference to Gliscor pass, not full BP. I don’t have a stance on it since I haven’t seen it used in ages.

I’m referencing the classic wdro build featuring Azelf lead. Electrode doesn’t have Memento, so it’s not going to force the switch on Gliscor’s entry turn. Plus it doesn’t have Reflect, so you can make a compelling case it’s worse than both Azelf and Uxie.
Electrode has Explosion and Gliscor generally doesn't need Reflect as badly. It's still a monstrous tank on the physical side, it tanks CB Gyarados Waterfall. While it no longer tanks Explosion, teams don't have that many and Glis can just come in and do it again. Azelf is still the preferred lead of course, arguably better because you don't know you're facing (some form of) Glis pass right away.

The most crucial part of the game is the beginning. The strategy is extremely vulnerable if everything doesn’t go according to plan.
"Everything" is in reality not that much nor is it uncommon, and if things do go to plan, as they quite often do, the game is over. Real good stuff.
In addition to those, leads that threaten status with the backing of a strong attack or flinch potential in the case of Jirachi will often force only a single screen.
Gliscor doesn't have to come in immediately though. It's not uncommon for it to switch in near the dying turns of LS and get its shit together.
Gliscor can be overwhelmed in many ways to pass only a single boost, which should be the speed unless they misplay. Behind screens, Vaporeon 3HKOs Gliscor. If Gliscor doesn’t Taunt, it will get phazed. Suicune has a chance to 2HKO behind screens. Suicune can also viably run Roar, which Gliscor is never checking. For that matter, Gliscor can only reasonably Taunt few phazers (Skarmory and Hippowdon, perhaps a few more). It’s a tough call enough to Taunt a Swampert since it can threaten formidable damage. It’s never going to Taunt something like Roar Raikou, which is actually a very neat combo on a defensive team since you severely discourage Starmie and throw your opponent completely out of synch in a condensed role.
RP on switch, Taunt, SD, pass. It's really bulky with Light Screen. Offensive Hydro Roar Cune is the only real viable measure there, and it needs to be that specific set - cool, it's a great mon, not unreasonable at all - but it doesn't even work that well, since Hydro is only a 6.3% to even get that 2HKO against the standard spread.

I’m not buying it’s low usage as being player dignity. Have you seen all of the angle shots that occur every damn tour by name players? The real reason is because you, me, and everyone else feels that we have a greater likelihood of winning with a more conventional, nuanced team. I’ve used Gliscor pass 2 times in the last 8 years as a means of disrupting matchup perception to keep people honest when they prepare for me. If you use it with any regularity, the win rate takes a nose dive. People will stack against it if you use it more than one time in a very selective spot.
If it doesn't win regularly (and history shows us it does - way too much, in fact - but let's assume), it's used only to catch people off-guard and to play matchup fishing games... this is not a desirable thing to have in a metagame. Again, it DOES win. Cutting down on nonsense like this is only increasing the skill involved, which we should all agree is a good thing.

Let’s talk about these tiering decisions going completely willy nilly on anything unpleasant to face. There is a very clear bias in old gen tiering for consensus standards and any strategy, however small, that disrupts its success is an instant target. It’s presented to the community as a decision to improve and increase competitive balance, but what it really does is increase stagnation. Sun and Chlorophyll was a target because it disrupted those precious Sand Spikes balances. Now look at BW, truly laughable to see the proponents of moleman BW make a PR thread about how much it’s ruined the tier. Let’s go back to DPP Salamence, which was a totally contrived backdoor decision that many people voted on the basis that it’s presence was bad for defense. The opposite was true, Salamence was blocking the niches of several more diverse and harder to remove threats to defense, which is referenced in the OP here as being a major complaint of DPP players today.
This is a topic I feel strongly about so forgive the excess writing. Whenever I make a team, I am trying to cover every threat in the metagame to some degree while executing my strategy, a team that is consistently useful, because if a team isn't consistent to some degree then I don't really think it's that good. (Making 1-off "counterstyle" teams for a specific opponent in team tournaments is related, but that's another discussion.) This team I worked hard on that covers a wide range of threats is then dismissed as "lazy balance spam" (even if realistically the teams are more offensive than defensive but let's play along) and that I just want to safely counter everything for free wins. This dismissal of those consistently using the best Pokemon (who are the best because they're consistently effective) is one of my biggest annoyances and one I initially came to Smogon to get away from.

Also, this isn't exactly some new strategy we just need to adapt to. It has been a problem for far too long, in fact.

People say things shouldn't be banned because they annoy my favorite kind of team. Are you serious? There are so many things that I see more often that annoy the hell out of me that I wouldn't dream of banning. Since you mentioned BW, let's go with the examples of all forms of Garchomp, Hydreigon, Alakazam, Jirachi, Gravity Landorus-T, Tornadus, I could go on, that personally aggravate me to no end. In the end this is just a copout answer. If we're going with DPP, then Jirachi, Breloom, Infernape, Flygon, Dragonite, Gengar, Kingdra, Gyarados, Metagross, Machamp, all these guys are general pains in the asses to teams everywhere and are tough foes to fight. They are "annoying." There is a difference between "man fuck clefable it walls all my tspikes offenses" and what Baton Pass does.

Your BW example is also presented incorrectly. Sun and Chlorophyll DID need to go, it wasn't as simple as "lol it beats sand so broken. People who complain about BW now complain that Sun is still ridiculous or Excadrill. I'm not seeing any contradiction, they don't complain that lack of Sun/Chloro ruined the tier. What happened was a step in the right direction and we had to continue because a new issue arose. For what it's worth, Chlorophyll without Dugtrio/Arena is being looked at in the future, but again, new topic.

Salamence's presence was bad for every team, not just defense, and I don't believe it blocked the use of the other Pokemon I mentioned in the OP (who I don't believe are problematic whatsoever, that was just a pre-emptive "don't make stupid posts like "lol banning bp when iron head jirachi exists"").

What people fail to realize is that there are unknown ripples that emanate from every decision, no matter the scale. It should be reserved for absolutely impacting strategies that play an active role in team building. You mean to tell me you build your stall teams to take account for Gliscor pass above all of the conventional threats? And if you don’t, how often are you getting burned? If this is happening with regularity, then you can adjust your approach to eliminate it and their win rates will take a big hit, reestablishing equilibrium.
Making effective teams is tough enough already without having to worry about the possibility of getting Baton Passed. Cutting down on this sort of variance emphasizes skill. Yes, there's skill in choosing the right team, but there's a difference between punishing the Starmie abuser with Passho Heatran and using a team that straight up rolls over most of what it faces.
Sparsely used disruptor strategies are a sign of a healthy metagame. If you want to look to nature for parallels, the mutation of hemoglobin that causes Sickle Cell Anemia increases resistance to Malaria in the population. Remove these aspects and you have a very stagnant, vulnerable situation for the metagame where the checks and balances of Gliscor pass fall out of usage, potentially resulting in a worse overall situation for the tier.
This is a baseless claim. The checks to Gliscor pass are still going to be used because they're good Pokemon, but they are quite specific and not even guaranteed to work. You're just no longer forced to use them lest your opponent spring a cheesy matchup trap on you. They would not fall out of usage, and the metagame would not become stagnant, nor vulnerable (what does the latter even refer to?).

This is not to say that nothing should ever be done in old gens, but it has to be thoroughly proven to (1) destroy a majority of the metagame
I'm not seeing this in relation to BW. The 2016 metagame, pre-Rush Excadrill and Sun crazes of '17 and '18 respectively (note how both elements are harmful - it is not mere disruption, these are bona fide uber strategies), was considered by many to be BW2's best ever metagame and the best BW metagame since the end of BW1. In any case, I don't know what destroying a metagame consists of. If you mean nerfing Chlorophyll, which had countless arguments to its excessive power, then that's your prerogative, but the majority found the post-Chloro metagame to be vastly superior.
and (2) have the usage to support that the strategy is dominant to warrant an action. Before anyone goes off on this by showing how effective it is against common builds, first ask yourself do the builds it beats even pretend like it’s there.
These builds are already stretched to their limits handling the metagame at hand without trying to incorporate the specific techniques that handle BP that aren't even guaranteed to work. Matchup is a buzzword I don't like to throw around but this is a real case of it.
We used to run suspect ladders where you could see very evidently how something in question would perform when it is actually accounted for in the metagame. If people aren’t accounting for it, that in itself validates my point.
The DPP ladder is, by and large, a place without these BP strategies. It's just the same old DPP metagame. The impact of BP's loss wouldn't be (and already "isn't" if you want to look at it as not thoroughly affecting teams when it isn't used) a ripple on the metagame. It's interesting how something can be so overpowered/uncompetitive/unhealthy/whatever word you prefer and not have an effect on the "real metagame" (and we're drawing our subjective line here for the million reasons posted) when it leaves, but I guess that's what its curveball nature gives it.

There are plenty of disruptor strategies that don't take the form of battle-ruining nonsense. Potentially using unconventional sets with strong water moves to take advantage of stall teams that don't resist them is an example of such a thing. BP is not some incredible anti-metagame risk to be rewarded for.
 
Last edited:

Mr.E

im the best
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
#24
I'm in a tiny minority here, as evidenced by bajillions of votes in the past, but following a particular competitive philosophy, if higher orders of BP are inconsistent enough not to see regular play then it doesn't deserve to be banned. If you lose to it at the wrong time, well it sucks to be you but don't let negativity bias, or your short-term aggravation, color your perceptions. It shouldn't be used often and when it does, it still won't actually win that often. Really this could apply to a lot of potential and existing bans... And hey, when you're as unlucky as me you're gonna lose to a lot of random other bullshit anyway. Probability-based game and all.

Hell, even if it is strong enough to see regular play, I don't think it's necessarily unhealthy for a metagame. It just means you have to prepare for it. The more you prepare for BP, and the less they're dedicated to the strategy, the better your win rate. "Greedier" (BP-ignoring) teams will have an advantage over more well-rounded teams, but the greedier you get the more likely you lose to BP (and to less dedicated BP teams at that) and the greedier the metagame gets the more common BP becomes to bring it back into balance. Sort of rock-paper-scissors, or a cycle/gradient. Honestly, most competitive games have this sort of metagame and those of you who resist it are just spoiled brats who are too lazy and entitled to adapt.

But sure, there's an argument to be made that later-gen BP is strong enough to not just be a part of a healthy, circular metagame but actively dictate it. Affinity, Caw-Blade, Huntertaker, Cubelock, blah blah. When one pillar of the metagame is too strong, even if it's not so strong that it simply has no counters, the metagame still devolves into seeing too much of that strategy, too much of its counter, and not enough everything-else. I'm not convinced (Gen 4) BP is that strong, but it's a point of contention where like minds can reasonably disagree and I suppose that's why topics like these can reasonably exist. It's funny how we resort to usage stats to dictate our tiers, and have sizable Suspect metagame ladders for individual mon bans, yet when it comes to BP (and occasionally other stuff like Sand Veil) we still mostly resort to theorymon to justify banning it.

I'm a bit more receptive to a related argument: the lack of best-of-3 matches, outside of recent RBY tournament changes, make it difficult for our game to support the typical cyclical competitive metagame and yet the teambuilding burden, especially the later gen you go (more total options), make it impractical to move away from a best-of-1 system. (Similar to the NFL relative to other major sports leagues.) Maybe we shouldn't support BP because the matchups are too polarizing and in a BO1 system we don't play enough games to reasonably suppress the impact of a single cheap win/loss. In other words, banning it isn't ideal but a practical concession, much like how timers exist in most competitive games (including ours). Ideally, people would never timeout, every match would be played to its competitive conclusion and nobody would be able to play for a "timer win" over directly defeating their opponent. But most of us don't have infinite time to play games and we must play around more important life matters.

There's also the "fun" argument but y'alls can miss me with that gay shit and it's unfortunate that this is the main argument to which most resort (source: every Suspect topic ever). This metagame feels better. You know what I find fun? Winning.
 
#25
You’re a shrewd one, BKC; your post focuses a lot on BW, which I don’t know if I agree with your conclusion there. However, that should belong to a separate topic. I will say here that I never thought Chlorophyll Sun was dominant without Excadrill and with Dugtrio. How has the metagame gone from arguably being able to hold up against that to not being able to handle it without Dugtrio or Chlorophyll—that leads into the topic of DPP; counters DO actually fall out of usage. If you start focusing your coverage on other mainstays your flank is open. Unless the issue is specifically Excadrill, big shocker if so, then this is indeed the case.

As for the DPP content, I agree with you that considering Gliscor Pass in a standard build is not easy. Without a dedicated counter, it is left to the player to outmaneuver the Gliscor player by applying what pressure is available to them. You know this is the state of things because I’ve seen a replay of you defeating Gliscor Pass with a balanced and conventional team that lacked our discussed specific checks and counters. Hence, why those teams need more to go right for them than your post leads on to the community. They’re a crapshoot when facing each other or distant relative offensive builds that make use of Taunting and Rocks/Screening to begin a match, plus they can still lose to a modest spectrum of the balanced styles of teams. Is that why you said in your post that, “BP isn’t known for its reliability?”

Let’s not mince words here, I don’t think Gliscor Pass is a desirable strategy. I am questioning the validity of its removal and to this point I am unconvinced—and I don’t think I’m alone on this. If this proceeds, it’s purely a manicuring of the DPP metagame. Therein lies the problem for me. I was around when Wobbuffet was tested; that was a complete shitfest that was prolific enough in usage to warrant its swift ban (you can reference the stats to double check, but I believe it was still ranked 40th in usage despite only being allowed for 2 weeks of the month!). This isn’t even Gliscor Pass’s heyday, and the testament of its effectiveness is MORE likely to lie in the heavy trends of what is effective, as you detailed should not be so readily dismissed by the community, than it does with the strategy itself. If the metagame were truly healthy, there would be even less opportunity for a strategy of this kind to flourish.

Let’s not mistake effectiveness for dominance. I specifically detailed in my last post why it is effective—it sees little usage and is normally selectively chosen against an opponent based on matchup likelihood’s. If it can be proven that it’s effectiveness goes beyond this into the realm of dominance through a larger sample size (for example, winning an entire tournament with the strategy against a very competent field—not like a Smogon Tour setting where games are live, but one with ample preparation time like Classic), then I would rest my case. My prediction is that as it’s usage increases, the win rate decreases (just like other phenomena in the metagame). Until you have a clear answer as to where it’s dominance (that is accounting for win rate + usage) plateaus, this will just be kneejerk reflex of a tiering decision.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top